Whitechapel - Girls Kicking Ass- WAR GODDESS #0 +1 2013-05-23T10:50:03-07:00 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/ Lussumo Vanilla & Feed Publisher Girls Kicking Ass- WAR GODDESS #0 +1 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10186&Focus=307887#Comment_307887 2011-08-30T08:38:24-07:00 2011-08-30T08:44:39-07:00 Mike Wolfer http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=11 Let me cautiously wade ankle-deep into Whitechapel to see how warm the waters are with regard to WAR GODDESS. I'm that Mike, who's been working with Warren on GRAVEL all these years, a series ...
I'm that Mike, who's been working with Warren on GRAVEL all these years, a series that's quite a thematic departure from Boundless Comics' balls-out (or is it boobs-out?) "bad girl"/retro/rock 'em sock 'em revamp series WAR GODDESS. Issue #0 has been on the shelves for a few weeks, and this Wednesday sees the release of #1.

Is anyone here reading the book, and if so, any thoughts or comments? I'm freaking loving writing the series, as it harkens back to my roots on the self-published book WIDOW (who appears in all her spider-leggy glory in WG after a hiatus of about 10 years). After attending the Baltimore Comic Con, I've met one segment of the comic market who have embraced the book almost uncomfortably at times, but I'm curious what the cultured Whitechapel crowd has to say.

Have at it.

wargoddess #1]]> Girls Kicking Ass- WAR GODDESS #0 +1 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10186&Focus=307890#Comment_307890 2011-08-30T09:11:46-07:00 2013-05-23T10:50:03-07:00 Beamish http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=8236 I missed 0 but would be happy to check it out and let you know. Enjoyed Wolfskin btw. Girls Kicking Ass- WAR GODDESS #0 +1 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10186&Focus=307900#Comment_307900 2011-08-30T11:13:14-07:00 2011-08-30T11:15:04-07:00 oldhat http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=75 I'm just going to PUT THIS LINK HERE and step away before venom comes out of my mouth. PUT THIS LINK HERE and step away before venom comes out of my mouth.]]> Girls Kicking Ass- WAR GODDESS #0 +1 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10186&Focus=307901#Comment_307901 2011-08-30T11:18:26-07:00 2013-05-23T10:50:03-07:00 Will Ellwood http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2556 I feel it is necessary to post a link to this fine and educational tumblr page. fine and educational tumblr page.]]> Girls Kicking Ass- WAR GODDESS #0 +1 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10186&Focus=307902#Comment_307902 2011-08-30T11:18:56-07:00 2013-05-23T10:50:03-07:00 glukkake http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1693 Erm, I'll be the one to outright say it. You've hit the pinnacle of alienating women from comics with having heavily sexualized women in impractical clothing cat fighting each other and then calling ... You've hit the pinnacle of alienating women from comics with having heavily sexualized women in impractical clothing cat fighting each other and then calling them "girls".

Maybe the storyline is much better than the cover would have me think or maybe it veers into ridiculous camp that makes it all funny (and maybe there's equal opportunity of men in similar situations!) but from what I've seen, this comic isn't meant for people like me.]]> Girls Kicking Ass- WAR GODDESS #0 +1 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10186&Focus=307903#Comment_307903 2011-08-30T11:24:40-07:00 2011-08-30T11:25:56-07:00 oldhat http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=75 Yeah, and that's it with me too. Really, just by the cover of this comic, as a female I'm not feeling too inclined to check it out. Girls Kicking Ass- WAR GODDESS #0 +1 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10186&Focus=307905#Comment_307905 2011-08-30T11:43:43-07:00 2013-05-23T10:50:03-07:00 RenThing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=155 Sorry, Mike, but I don't think that's the comic for me. @oldhat As a male I'm not feeling inclined to check it out.
@oldhat

As a male I'm not feeling inclined to check it out.]]> Girls Kicking Ass- WAR GODDESS #0 +1 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10186&Focus=307906#Comment_307906 2011-08-30T11:45:42-07:00 2013-05-23T10:50:03-07:00 Mike Wolfer http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=11 I have my own thoughts on how the characters are dressed; in fact, I specifically address it in the script. I appreciate the comments based solely on the cover I linked above. However. Back ...
However.

Back to my original question:

"Is anyone here reading the book, and if so, any thoughts or comments?"]]> Girls Kicking Ass- WAR GODDESS #0 +1 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10186&Focus=307907#Comment_307907 2011-08-30T11:50:43-07:00 2011-08-30T12:06:28-07:00 oldhat http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=75 And what are those thoughts? I know you're asking a specific question and don't want to deviate from it, but this IS a discussion about your comic and something I'm wondering about. To be clear, ...
To be clear, this isn't bashing your writing on it. I haven't read any of it because I just heard about it today and haven't seen a preview of it.

EDIT: Nevermind, found a preview. Huh.]]> Girls Kicking Ass- WAR GODDESS #0 +1 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10186&Focus=307909#Comment_307909 2011-08-30T12:08:27-07:00 2013-05-23T10:50:03-07:00 RenThing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=155 ...Huh... Girls Kicking Ass- WAR GODDESS #0 +1 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10186&Focus=307910#Comment_307910 2011-08-30T12:09:11-07:00 2013-05-23T10:50:03-07:00 mercurialblonde http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2444 Ha. I can't really say much. I posted like four Frank Thorne pages on my tumblr today, and am a big fan of stuff like Red Sonja and Wonder Woman. I don't really mind scantily clad women in comics ... I don't really mind scantily clad women in comics or art, so long as they are doing something cool, or look really cool, and aren't being demeaned consistently within the pages.

I'm not overly interested in this, just because I'm more pulled to extremes when it comes to art or coloring styles, and this doesn't really do it for me. If this same comic were drawn by like Ashley Wood or Paul Pope or Brandon Graham, I would probably be all over it.]]> Girls Kicking Ass- WAR GODDESS #0 +1 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10186&Focus=307911#Comment_307911 2011-08-30T12:16:03-07:00 2011-08-30T12:47:30-07:00 Mike Wolfer http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=11 I was just going to point the direction to the preview, but you beat me to it. If you want to see leather, that's cool. But what you're seeing is either a nylon flight suit, cotton-based capris or ...
But it's not the desert. It's the mountains of Bolivia (as it says on the page).

As for my thoughts, like I said, it's in the script, so I don't want to give away any punchlines, but wardrobes do change depending on environmental conditions, and if someone is dressed like a street-walker, she's going to get called out on it by someone. Just as you have! :)]]> Girls Kicking Ass- WAR GODDESS #0 +1 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10186&Focus=307913#Comment_307913 2011-08-30T12:23:54-07:00 2013-05-23T10:50:03-07:00 oldhat http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=75 Yeah, I recognized the error, which is why I took it out. My bad on that. Working with a very tiny monitor and didn't notice the location! Still, I have to say that the art is just pushing me ...
Still, I have to say that the art is just pushing me away from this.]]> Girls Kicking Ass- WAR GODDESS #0 +1 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10186&Focus=307926#Comment_307926 2011-08-30T13:47:52-07:00 2013-05-23T10:50:03-07:00 Andre Navarro http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1561 Mike, I am reminded of a panel in BLACK SUMMER, in which a female character is shot in the leg, and artist Juan Jose Ryp did everything he could to put her in a pose that made her ass stick out ...
From what I've seen in the preview, and especially on the cover, WAR GODDESS seems to suffer from the same lack of sync between writer and artist (I am basing this solely on the writing of the preview, although you seem to be in accordance with the artist's approach, judging from your first post in this thread). The cover alone might as well be pushing me away physically. On a technical level the artist is talented but his visual narrative seems entirely built around the preposterously-dressed body of the female characters. And while the writing seems far above the level the cover promises, cliche lines like "Go join her in hell" do not attract me.

Which is why I have to join others in saying that what I've seen of this book isn't for me. I know you are asking for the opinion of people who have read the whole book, but I share other users' urge to point out the problems I can see so far, particularly regarding the artist's approach.]]> Girls Kicking Ass- WAR GODDESS #0 +1 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10186&Focus=307930#Comment_307930 2011-08-30T14:34:04-07:00 2013-05-23T10:50:03-07:00 sellmeyoursoul http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=9518 @Mike - I guess I'd have to ask you who your intended audience is/what sort of themes are you intending to address? There is definitely a market for a book with highly sexualized female characters ... Girls Kicking Ass- WAR GODDESS #0 +1 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10186&Focus=307938#Comment_307938 2011-08-30T16:19:42-07:00 2013-05-23T10:50:03-07:00 Jay Kay http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=814 I wonder if this is the only cover that's coming out for this issue, and if that might have been a bad call. From what I understand, this is a revamp of an old character, right? It reminds me of ...
From what I understand, this is a revamp of an old character, right? It reminds me of recent revamps of characters like Witchblade, where while they often have a lot of different variant covers by different pin-up artists drawing her in the original bikini costume, in the actual comic and the official covers, she wears a full-set of armor which, while clinging to her skin and still showing off curves and some covers showing off cleavage, it at least seems more practical. In a place like this, it might have been better to lead out with something like that, or at least mentioning that there's more to your character than just catfights.

I'm sorry for not actually talking about the book--I honestly never even heard of it until I saw this thread. The preview doesn't look bad, so I might keep an eye out for it if I ever have any extra money around.]]> Girls Kicking Ass- WAR GODDESS #0 +1 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10186&Focus=307939#Comment_307939 2011-08-30T16:28:15-07:00 2013-05-23T10:50:03-07:00 Mike Wolfer http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=11 I wonder, Jay Kay...
wg #0
wg#4]]> Girls Kicking Ass- WAR GODDESS #0 +1 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10186&Focus=307944#Comment_307944 2011-08-30T17:46:46-07:00 2013-05-23T10:50:03-07:00 Mercer Finn http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5496 That wraparound cover >>>>> >>>>]]> Girls Kicking Ass- WAR GODDESS #0 +1 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10186&Focus=307946#Comment_307946 2011-08-30T17:54:44-07:00 2013-05-23T10:50:03-07:00 Jay Kay http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=814 Yeah, if it were me, I would have started with the wrap-around cover. Don't get me wrong, as a red-blooded American male I can dig two girls in bikinis fighting, but a badass woman about to fight a ... Girls Kicking Ass- WAR GODDESS #0 +1 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10186&Focus=307949#Comment_307949 2011-08-30T18:10:29-07:00 2013-05-23T10:50:03-07:00 BrianMowrey http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1709 Yeah, this has motivated me to drop some money on the first comic with characters that look more like this that I see tomorrow, because apparently creators still don't feel it's safe to dress up ... this that I see tomorrow, because apparently creators still don't feel it's safe to dress up female characters in things that look awesome (and take more effort to draw). PS, respectfully, in the preview page there how come I can see the spine and the cleavage of the blue shirt girl at the same time? Is it... mirrors?

I have no problem with a comic that deals with sex and eroticism in any context, if it has something intelligent to say about it. Look at (the amazing) Lucille. That book starts off like Page 1: A girl is standing, Page 2: She took off her clothes is masturbating now. But it is a really really intense and affecting work! Further, it has nothing to apologize for. The characters don't need to discuss with each other why they go to their rooms and masturbate at night. We know why! It's because they want sex. A book with fighting girls wearing straps of cloth has a lot of explaining to do in terms of absurd visual propositions, and I'm probably not going to give it that chance.

Generally, something that treats sex as a subject and not a lens through which completely asexual issues are presented, wouldn't have a cover like this. If you have written this comic to have a discussion of sex in it, I think that cover is still pretty confusin'.

I don't want the art I consume to be prudish. I like sex. Sex is something that happens between two or more people having a relationship or dealing with horniness mutually; if a story isn't about that type of relationship or about horniness as an experience, then to put sex in it will probably blow up the story. It is dangerous to sexualize art when sex is not the subject. Obviously in comics and manga it is done all the time anyway by default, but I think you have to avoid exceeding the "I can ignore it" threshold of the readers who are more interested in the story, because for that group to read or buy it implies you convinced them that focus and effort went into presenting the 'real' comic. Very specifically, from the preview pages, I don't think the artist for the comic we are discussing is putting much effort into presentation. See spinecleavage-gate above.

If you had led with the wraparound I think there would still be some disappointment from this community on the preview. But as far as just the covers, I don't really like any of them (the monster in two is great but how many remakes of Wonder Woman's costume do I need to see in my life?) I don't want to try to be too specific about what the creator should put on their cover, because obviously when you get down to any specific action it might or might not be something that turns a reader off. There are lots of different expectation avenues that lead a reader to be looking at a cover in the first place, and there are lots of different readers. Clearly, lots of readers will buy sexualized images that are not 'about' sex (because what if the internet ceased to exist on the ten minute drive home?! You wouldn't want to have to make a return trip). In some contexts a sexualized cover isn't going to turn me off. If I am looking for something new from Japan I know I have to be willing move past a turn-off cover ("fffffuck a skinny girl with those insane types of boobs would just be scary in real life, but lets see what the first page is like" would be the thought process), because that's the only type of covers they tend to have; from an English-language work where I haven't already started dropping cash on previous issues I am going to refer back to my rule paragraph three of this comment.

Still looking forward to your work in general, Mr Wolfer.]]> Girls Kicking Ass- WAR GODDESS #0 +1 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10186&Focus=307980#Comment_307980 2011-08-31T00:52:05-07:00 2013-05-23T10:50:03-07:00 Red Deathy http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=10493 It's tricky to say from an Issue #0, since you spent a lot of the story both laying the background and not revealing too much at the same time. I did wonder about the gravity defying bosoms at ...
On a more positive note, I did like the inklings of the concept of Pandora, and would like to see where she'll go.

basically, I gave thee a pass based on thy past work that'll keep me reading for a few more issues.]]> Girls Kicking Ass- WAR GODDESS #0 +1 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10186&Focus=307981#Comment_307981 2011-08-31T01:07:19-07:00 2013-05-23T10:50:03-07:00 DavidLejeune http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4220 I think Jay kind of hit the nail on the head with the Witchblade comparison. The preview and all the covers (except the tarantula woman) all have a decidedly Top Cow feel to them, sans the ... Girls Kicking Ass- WAR GODDESS #0 +1 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10186&Focus=308001#Comment_308001 2011-08-31T08:06:32-07:00 2011-08-31T09:43:38-07:00 Mike Wolfer http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=11 Various quick responses: COVERS: My original concept for covers was a more MARVEL TEAM-UP approach, which I thought would be fitting considering the concept of the series. Unfortunately, several ...
COVERS: My original concept for covers was a more MARVEL TEAM-UP approach, which I thought would be fitting considering the concept of the series. Unfortunately, several artists were unleashed early on and they produced a whole bunch of covers before I ever got a chance to see a single one of them. Also unfortunate was that those artists were only supplied with a series concept and not scripts from which to draw inspiration, and the covers so far have leaned more toward “woman posing” designs. Fortunately for me, I’m also an artist, so I’ll be supplying thumbnail roughs for future issues, the first of which has been utilized for WAR GODDESS #6.

WARDROBE: Pandora’s new look was designed by Jacen Burrows. Hellina was designed by Matt Martin. Widow was designed by me (although she wears far more SWAT-style body armor than on the cover above). Three different characters, three different artists and three different “costumes” which reflect the individual personalities of the characters. Yes, they’re all supposed to look sexy, but there are calculated reasons for what they wear. Hellina’s costume is a reflection of her suppressed, inner psyche and has links to her past incarnation, to be revealed at a later date. Widow is stationed as Head of Security on Little Inagua Island in the southern Bahamas. It’s freaking hot and humid, and she’s chosen not to wear a body suit beneath her standard-issue security uniform. And with Pandora, thought was given by Jacen to a semi-real world approach, as evidenced by her jeans and boots without heels (when she’s suited-up for battle, that is), along with a mingling of ancient Greek and modern weapons, clothing and armor designs.

SEX/SEXUALITY: This series isn’t about sex, or the sexual liaisons of the characters, but that’s not to say those themes never arise, because they occasionally will. With that said, why are there inch-long nipples poking the viewer in the eye on many of the covers? Because it’s titillating and it’s what Boundless Comics has decided to put on the covers, simple as that. The question was asked, “Who is the target audience?” It think that’s pretty obvious. Look, no one is trying to pretend that this is anything cerebral, but I stand firmly behind what I have written, which is action-oriented, cheesecake fantasy… But I’ve also created characters who act and think like real people. If someone is dressed like a call girl, she’s going to get called-out for it by those around her. The stories explore mature, adult relationships and are heavy on subplots, and I think readers will be able to clearly differentiate between this and deviant fantasy, which many of you are probably assuming that WAR GODDESS is, based on the covers. And based solely on those covers, I would probably agree with you if I was giving an uninformed, knee-jerk critique. A female moderator on the Bleeding Cool boards said it best: “I enjoyed #0 too, in spite of the titstastic art.” It’s undeniable: the women are alluring and sexualized by their exposed midriffs and cleavage. And the men are ridiculously handsome. And the monsters are ookey and scary. And the science is super-science, the property damage is catastrophic and the locations are gorgeous and exotic. It’s a fantasy book.]]> Girls Kicking Ass- WAR GODDESS #0 +1 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10186&Focus=308003#Comment_308003 2011-08-31T08:41:21-07:00 2013-05-23T10:50:03-07:00 government spy http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6088 Basically this sounds to me like one of those movies where you have to know what to expect when you walk in. Sometimes I want to see girls kicking things til they 'splode. Sometimes I want a more ...
Sometimes I want a more grounded, cerebral, thought-provoking experience. But I don't go to one and expect the other.]]> Girls Kicking Ass- WAR GODDESS #0 +1 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10186&Focus=308044#Comment_308044 2011-08-31T14:58:41-07:00 2013-05-23T10:50:03-07:00 Ahlhelm http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1213 It's a much better comic than the initial cover post lets on. I think the attempt to take the classic Avatar characters and turn them in to more than one dimensional sex candy worked very well in the ...
I've got no idea how you can maintain it for multiple issues, but I will definitely give it a read and see.]]> Girls Kicking Ass- WAR GODDESS #0 +1 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10186&Focus=308088#Comment_308088 2011-09-01T05:47:09-07:00 2011-09-01T06:03:44-07:00 Mike Wolfer http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=11 Thanks, Ahlhelm. What you've described is exactly what I set out to do, and I'm glad that you appreciated and enjoyed what you saw. "I've got no idea how you can maintain it for multiple ...
"I've got no idea how you can maintain it for multiple issues..." Ha! Is that a challenge? Actually, keeping the story fresh and moving is always a concern, but the regularly rotating cast of supporting characters is, by its very nature, providing me with some really interesting story paths to explore. In the next issue (#2), you'll see the reintroduction of Anathema, now residing in the Louisiana bayou as a "swamp witch." Yeah, I know what you're probably thinking... But the whole point of this series is to take established stereotypes and preconceptions and twist them into something totally unexpected. The storyline you'll see in issues #0 through #4 sets the ground rules for the series, establishing the dark matter event and its effects on our dimension, but threats which our cast will face will come in many forms, both modern and ancient, and not solely from the parallel dark universe invading our own. So, yeah. Just saying that I have no shortage of ideas. Thanks for your input!]]> Girls Kicking Ass- WAR GODDESS #0 +1 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10186&Focus=308114#Comment_308114 2011-09-01T10:56:55-07:00 2011-09-01T10:57:30-07:00 mercurialblonde http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2444 I actually saw this at the store yesterday, and because of this thread thumbed through it. It was actually sort of highlighted away from the other books in the store, so hopefully that means it's ... Girls Kicking Ass- WAR GODDESS #0 +1 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10186&Focus=308139#Comment_308139 2011-09-01T15:44:26-07:00 2013-05-23T10:50:03-07:00 Beamish http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=8236 Only two books sold out this week. Justice League 1, and War Goddess 1. Granted the copies ordered were somewhat different, but I won't have a change to read it until next week. Hopefully another ... Girls Kicking Ass- WAR GODDESS #0 +1 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10186&Focus=308199#Comment_308199 2011-09-02T11:44:17-07:00 2011-09-02T12:17:50-07:00 Mike Wolfer http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=11 I just took another look at WAR GODDESS #0 to see what the deal was with the Cleavage/Spine problem that was pointed out on Page 4. Ah-ha. It's a coloring error. A curl of Pandora's hair that is ...
Ah-ha. It's a coloring error. A curl of Pandora's hair that is hanging over her collarbone was colored light blue, the same blue as her top. So now it looks like we're seeing both of her breasts, when only one was actually drawn in profile.

I knew that there had to be a logical explanation. If anyone cares.

@Andre Navarro: I meant to address this earlier. The line, "Go join her in Hell" might sound corny, but I needed to have Hellina utter something very recognizable/memorable because this links the opening "flash forward" scene at the beginning of #0 to the same scene seen from another perspective in the actual timeline in #1. There are other reasons that Hellina uses such stilted, villainish phrases, but the reason for it won't be revealed until #4.]]> Girls Kicking Ass- WAR GODDESS #0 +1 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10186&Focus=308209#Comment_308209 2011-09-02T12:50:45-07:00 2013-05-23T10:50:03-07:00 lomopop http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=10128 @ Mike Wolfer I don't want to beat a dead horse. Obviously this comic has a particular target market and I don't fall into it. However, you've said something like this If someone is dressed like ...
I don't want to beat a dead horse. Obviously this comic has a particular target market and I don't fall into it. However, you've said something like this
If someone is dressed like a call girl, she’s going to get called-out for it by those around her.


twice now and both times were in defense of the way these women are dressed. To me this is worse than just showing women dressed as sex candy because you then condemn them for it as well, sending the implicit message that while men can fantasize about and enjoy looking at half-naked women, they are also free to judge women harshly for the way that they dress.

You can claim that these women all have reasons for choosing to dress this way and you might be tempted to say that the characters who call-out women dressed as call-girls are speaking from their own motivations but these are characters that you've created and you've written those motivations for them. Therefore, if you write characters dressed like call-girls for the purpose of titillating your readers and then, through your other characters, condemn those women for dressing as call-girls, you reduce them to sex objects and at the same time condemn them for being sex objects which is a classic example of a lose-lose situation for women.]]> Girls Kicking Ass- WAR GODDESS #0 +1 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10186&Focus=308216#Comment_308216 2011-09-02T13:31:38-07:00 2013-05-23T10:50:03-07:00 Mike Wolfer http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=11 I have written the characters, and of course I have created their motivations. That's all a part of the job we call "fiction writing." I'm not personally condoning nor condemning anyone for ... have written the characters, and of course I have created their motivations. That's all a part of the job we call "fiction writing." I'm not personally condoning nor condemning anyone for what they wear- A fictional character in a fictional comic book is condemning another fictional character for dressing totally inappropriately. That fictional character dressed like a hooker also eats the charred flesh from a dead body. Does that mean I personally condone cannibalism? No.

And by the way, as I stated in an earlier post, I didn't design the costumes (except for Widow) and I also didn't create the characters, except for Widow, the one who utters the line in question. Since the book is out, here is the whole exchange:

PANDORA: She's dead! I just killed an innocent woman!
WIDOW: "Innocent?" She was dressed like a freakin' hooker. And I would know. I've been there.

You've gone a long way to make your point by asking questions which you yourself have answered, specifically, "you might be tempted to say that the characters... are speaking from their own motivations." Well, yeah. They are.]]> Girls Kicking Ass- WAR GODDESS #0 +1 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10186&Focus=308219#Comment_308219 2011-09-02T14:09:01-07:00 2011-09-02T16:16:22-07:00 oldhat http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=75 EDIT: You know what? Nevermind. Already determined early on that this book wasn't for me, so I'm just going to back off. But I would think a person less innocent of something if they were eating ...
But I would think a person less innocent of something if they were eating charred human flesh rather than dressing "like a hooker", but I guess the character has a motivation on why potential sex workers are okay to kill.

Best of luck.]]> Girls Kicking Ass- WAR GODDESS #0 +1 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10186&Focus=308220#Comment_308220 2011-09-02T15:01:21-07:00 2013-05-23T10:50:03-07:00 lomopop http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=10128 I have written the characters, and of course I have created their motivations. That's all a part of the job we call "fiction writing." I'm not personally condoning nor condemning anyone for ... I have written the characters, and of course I have created their motivations. That's all a part of the job we call "fiction writing." I'm not personally condoning nor condemning anyone for what they wear- A fictional character in a fictional comic book is condemning another fictional character for dressing totally inappropriately. That fictional character dressed like a hooker also eats the charred flesh from a dead body. Does that mean I personally condone cannibalism? No.
I realize that fiction writing often means writing characters that do things that you may not personally condone but you also have to be aware of the way in which you present those actions. For instance, there is a difference between writing a racist character, where we're supposed to look at the character and think what an ass he or she is for being racist, and writing a racist character that perpetuates racist stereotypes. When someone writes a racist character that perpetuates racist stereotypes, they can use the same argument that you did (it's just fiction) but they're still contributing to racism by their treatment of the subject matter. In writing a character that dresses like a hooker and then having another character judge her for dressing like a hooker without acknowledging that this sexualization and condemnation of women is a negative treatment of women, you risk falling into the second category of perpetuating stereotypes rather than the first category which shows an awareness that these are stereotypes.

The actual dialogue that you quote is a perfect example:

PANDORA: She's dead! I just killed an innocent woman!
WIDOW: "Innocent?" She was dressed like a freakin' hooker. And I would know. I've been there.

In other words, because she's dressed a particular way, she couldn't possibly be an innocent person. Your story may have all kinds of reasons why this person is not innocent but having the character say that she's not innocent based on how she's dressed is no different than saying that she's guilty based on her skin colour (even if you've written the character as being guilty). Again, you can write characters who say and do these things but they're perpetuating sexism or racism unless you, as the writer, indicate that we're supposed to think negatively of these characters for saying the things that they say.

You've gone a long way to make your point by asking questions which you yourself have answered, specifically, "you might be tempted to say that the characters... are speaking from their own motivations." Well, yeah. They are.

I didn't actually ask any questions. I anticipated what your response was going to be and then tried to preempt that by saying why I didn't think it would be a good response.
You also contradict what you've said at the beginning of your post which is:" I have written the characters, and of course I have created their motivations. That's all a part of the job we call "fiction writing.""

And by the way, as I stated in an earlier post, I didn't design the costumes (except for Widow) and I also didn't create the characters, except for Widow, the one who utters the line in question.

Okay, but my impression was that you are writing these characters and therefore have some say over how they dress. Even if that is not the case, you are defending the way these characters are portrayed and, as a result, are complicit in the message that they're sending.]]>