Whitechapel - Women's Portrayal in Comics 2013-05-24T20:39:48-07:00 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/ Lussumo Vanilla & Feed Publisher Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=308872#Comment_308872 2011-09-09T03:42:10-07:00 2013-05-24T20:39:48-07:00 sellmeyoursoul http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=9518 Last week there was a thread about a specific title and the way that women in it were portrayed caused a bit of a stir. This spilled over into other forms of Whitechapel social media and raised some ...
So who gets it right? Who are the worst offenders? What about them make those writers/artists so special? What tropes have been beaten to death? What are the opportunities that the industry missing? What are those little things that make even the "good" examples annoyingly obviously written by a well meaning, but clueless guy?]]> Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=308882#Comment_308882 2011-09-09T05:35:22-07:00 2013-05-24T20:39:48-07:00 Ariana http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1 But let's keep the ratio tipped towards the "who gets it right," okay? I mean, it's gonna get really boring really fast if everyone just posts a picture of unbelievable tits. This sort of ... Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=308887#Comment_308887 2011-09-09T07:00:58-07:00 2013-05-24T20:39:48-07:00 3millionyears http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5422 it's gonna get really boring really fast if everyone just posts a picture of unbelievable tits Damm! I was reading some comics the other day, when my wife (who has no interest in them) looked ... it's gonna get really boring really fast if everyone just posts a picture of unbelievable tits

Damm!

I was reading some comics the other day, when my wife (who has no interest in them) looked over my shoulder and commented in much the same vein about 'unbelievable tits', later though she saw a picture of Neil Gaiman's Death and said that that was more like a normal person!

Jim Lee's Death]]> Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=308888#Comment_308888 2011-09-09T07:05:14-07:00 2013-05-24T20:39:48-07:00 Warped Savant http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2376 Who gets it right: Terry Moore. First in Strangers in Paradise, next in Echo. He has a little book out talking about how to draw women but it's (mostly) not about proportions and what have you but ...
I know there's more, but it's too early to think of good, solid examples.]]> Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=308889#Comment_308889 2011-09-09T07:11:05-07:00 2011-09-10T10:03:46-07:00 Mercer Finn http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5496 My feeling is that Brian Michael Bendis did Marvel an incomparably good service with his work on Jessica Jones and the ladies in USM. Alias was a real eye-opener for me, and remains a good example by ...
I wonder if anyone is uncomfortable with the recurring gender roles you might find in the work of people like Greg Rucka (who seems to have a fetish for lesbians) or indeed Warren Ellis (who generally treats his lady characters much more positively than his gent characters -- but again, examples to the contrary are welcome). Personally, I'm pretty relaxed about this: my stance is that if the character feels like a real person to me, then stereotypes become irrelevant, and creators have the right to revisit particular situations / characters if they are interested in them. But it's something I've been interested in since reading this (spoiler-heavy) tirade against GRRM's Game of Thrones books.]]> Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=308892#Comment_308892 2011-09-09T07:18:36-07:00 2011-09-09T07:20:40-07:00 Mercer Finn http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5496 Also, perhaps I'm reading too shallowly, but my feeling is that almost all of today's top-tier comics writers are doing it right. I'm less confident about saying the same for comics artists, although ... Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=308901#Comment_308901 2011-09-09T08:46:36-07:00 2013-05-24T20:39:48-07:00 Miranda's Eyes http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1443 For me, Greg Rucka's female characters have always been intriguing and interesting. There have been the obvious ones such as Tara Chace and Wonder Woman. But there have also been the less obvious ... Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=308915#Comment_308915 2011-09-09T11:45:23-07:00 2011-09-12T03:09:49-07:00 Paul Duffield http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6 Pretty much everyone who doesn't draw comics that either feature heavily, theme themselves around, comment on, satirise/deconstruct or otherwise focus on the very "male" possesion and use ...
Pick a creator who works outside that disproportionaely huge catagory, and the chances are that the way they draw and write women will be pretty "normal" in the sense that the women won't be innapropriately posing like a porn star regardless of what they're really doing or thinking. I could list dozens, but it seems pointless - just go to a comic shop and look at the indie/foreign sections.

Conversely, the number of titles inside that category that don't either innapropriately sexualise or sideline female characters are probably guilty of my favourite writing trope - female characters who could be swapped line-for-line with a man without anyone noticing. That being said, I'm sure there a number of "power" titles with deftly written and portrayed women, but the correlation between the prevalence of the genre, and the presentation of the women inside the genre seems too solid for doubt about the link.

I honestly think that unless the most successful/common publishers, creators and consumers suddenly and radically change thier favourite subject matter, this is a problem that isn't going to go away. To fully solve it, we need an equal number of men and women from all walks of life creating comics, along with an audience who consumes comics without an unconscious genre or gender bias, and a society that isn't still struggling with institutionalised sexism. Good luck everyone!

(PS I may sound bitter, and perhaps I am, but I'm honesly not a raving anti-superhero lunatic, or a DC/Marvel hater, I'd just like superheroes to be one of many many genres, and DC/Marvel to be two out of many many publishers that are all equally well represented, funded and appreciated).

It seems like that's all there is to say on the matter other than GO CREATE NEW COMICS! and GO CREATE NEW PUBLISHERS! and GO BUY OUTSIDE YOUR COMFORT ZONE!]]> Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=308917#Comment_308917 2011-09-09T12:37:47-07:00 2013-05-24T20:39:48-07:00 Dextra http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=279 I agree with Warped Savant, Terry Moore has been getting it right for ages. In his stories, women are very well-rounded, no pun intended. Easily some of the most easy to relate to characters I've ... Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=308918#Comment_308918 2011-09-09T12:47:41-07:00 2013-05-24T20:39:48-07:00 Jon Wake http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1684 Its a bit egomaniacal of me--okay, it's a lot egomaniacal of me-- but I'd like to put my own work out there for your approval. I'm not going to try and tell you 'I did it right', because I most ...
Virtuoso]]> Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=308920#Comment_308920 2011-09-09T13:41:56-07:00 2013-05-24T20:39:48-07:00 vandalhandle http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4586 Brian K. Vaughn and Brian Wood are two writers i've always felt handle women very well, the women of Y The Last Man, Local, DMZ and Runaways were for the most part interesting characters, and when it ... Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=308925#Comment_308925 2011-09-09T14:56:49-07:00 2013-05-24T20:39:48-07:00 mercurialblonde http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2444 I've never really liked when artists who are drawing fantasy books of a stripe, draw "realistically proportioned women". I feel like it's boring, and somewhat of an ...
The problem with the depiction of female characters is more like 90 percent in the concept behind their depiction. There's nothing wrong with fantastically proportioned women who could never exist in the real world. There is a problem if you are writing them in disgusting demeaning ways, over and over and over to the point where it is boring and hateful.

Also within the superhero context, it seems like some writers struggle with how to use the female characters. I thought the JLU animated series was a good blueprint for how to do women in superhero comics. They were sexy, kick butt, and took charge often.

I would also like to see more X-men comics where the leadership of the x-men isn't a man(Cyclops or Professor X). Storm, Emma, and Rogue are all better leadership candidates than Cyclops, but you rarely see them running the whole thing(if ever). The whole Cyclops-Emma Frost leadership dynamic is one that kind of bugs me, because Emma is taking a back seat to someone who is somewhat inferior to her, and at best manipulating him in the bedroom behind closed doors, as opposed to leading things up front. I know some of that is because she used to be a villian--but it seems like the typical "behind every great man is a great woman" thing. With emphasis on the behind.

So stuff like that--the writing, is what bugs me more than anything. The art is what it is, and there's plenty of beautiful amazing art that utilizes very unrealistic proportioned women.

I would also like to see more creator owned books be a little more on point with their fashion choices, and not just dress every female character like a stripper. Be creative! Get a reference book with actual legit fashion in it!]]> Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=308928#Comment_308928 2011-09-09T16:05:54-07:00 2013-05-24T20:39:48-07:00 BrianMowrey http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1709 I've never really liked when artists who are drawing fantasy books of a stripe, draw "realistically proportioned women". I feel like it's boring, and somewhat of an ... I've never really liked when artists who are drawing fantasy books of a stripe, draw "realistically proportioned women". I feel like it's boring, and somewhat of an over-correction/pandering.
Well, surely boring in this context is just a stylistic preference --! To me, being served ideal (nine heads tall) men and women by the artist is much less likely to engage me. And on a question of wardrobe, I perceive it as less likely that ideal bodies are going have cool costumes on them. Even logistically -- if you put a trenchcoat or real cargo pants on a very muscular male he is going to look rectangular -- that is how clothing works! Skinny bodies give more play on men; cool warrior clothing on women usually implies they should be clothed. But anyway I would really just point to Nate Simpson's Nonplayer as an example of fantasy scenes that use realistic forms which I hope nobody found boring.
Also within the superhero context, it seems like some writers struggle with how to use the female characters. I thought the JLU animated series was a good blueprint for how to do women in superhero comics. They were sexy, kick butt, and took charge often

My comment here would be, I agree! That is why and maybe some other people don't read DC comics. They serve Heroes and not humans. In the context of that, the readers have every right to expect and receive female characters who inhabit Hero roles in exactly the same way male charecters do. However, in a comic which serves main characters who have flaws and weaknesses, the question becomes more nuanced. Portraying female characters as 1 human 2 flawed 3 feminine : is it allowed, is it fair, is it not just allowed and fair but important to try to do (maybe!). These are questions that might not belong in the moon observatory but belong in some other locations where comics I think are allowed to tell stories.

I thought the Emma Frost of that era wasn't disempowered at all. It's not just that leading through political power rather than type-A charisma matched her role as a Villain, it matched her, you know, character. An Emma that stood in front would not have been Emma. It was technically a feminine mode of action but in real life, lots of men use the same mode; and lots of real life female leaders are type-A all the way. Female characters should be allowed to be manipulative if there is a good story behind it. Clearly both her arc and Scott's 'constantly dazed into docile submission by offscreen orgasms' role were not novel ideas, but most good ideas aren't.

I would also like to see more creator owned books be a little more on point with their fashion choices, and not just dress every female character like a stripper. Be creative! Get a reference book with actual legit fashion in it!

I think there should definitely be more demand for this idea. But, also, a lot of artists would have trouble with it. I sure would. Fashion does require just that -- creativity. But also expertise. Ai Yazawa is the best at fashion but worked in a magazine or whatever it was first. In American comics, there's so little expectation that characters will wear real clothing that I think a lot of artists never practice drawing it -- indie creator's should be more aggressive in showing them off!

typed on mobile]]> Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=308934#Comment_308934 2011-09-09T16:43:01-07:00 2013-05-24T20:39:48-07:00 jimmyjungle http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4591 Currently?...Moore,Morrison,Ellis,Ennis,Gaiman,Delano,Milligan,Carey,Gillen,Fraction,Spencer,Snyder,Jenkins,Azzarello,David,Simone,Casey,Waid,Willingham,Sturges,Allred,Hickman,Kirkman,Lemire,Busiek,Co... A spoil of riches,it'd be churlish to ask for more, really.
There's always room for growth in how HUMANITY is portrayed in comics.
Cause the hyperagressive meathead male characters hardly represent us fellas.
SuperTip: make sure personal insecurity isn't clouding how you see the actual state of things.]]> Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=308938#Comment_308938 2011-09-09T18:18:55-07:00 2013-05-24T20:39:48-07:00 vandalhandle http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4586 @jimmyjungle, Moore has a habit of going the women as punching bag/raped route in everything of his i've read. and Ennis's treatment of women ain't great either, especially in 'the boys'. Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=308939#Comment_308939 2011-09-09T18:39:14-07:00 2013-05-24T20:39:48-07:00 Fishelle http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=8854 Paul Duffield said what I was thinking. There's so many comics out there that have such great female characters. When I think of comics, I never think of the, as Paul so aptly put it, ... so many comics out there that have such great female characters. When I think of comics, I never think of the, as Paul so aptly put it, "power" titles. That's because they aren't what I read. I could start naming names, but I don't think it would ever end.]]> Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=308941#Comment_308941 2011-09-09T18:45:43-07:00 2013-05-24T20:39:48-07:00 andycon http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=10109 I still find that even if they are written really well the art tends to always fall into "unbelievable tits" and they are still pretty sexualized. Slightly off topic, but for those that ...
Slightly off topic, but for those that are in the industry, is there some unwritten rule where naked breasts are a-ok but a guys penis is not? There are a few series that have equally strong male and female characters in them but when a sex scene comes (or just 'out of the shower') the guy is always covered up but the woman typically aren't, which always kinda makes me go hmm.]]> Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=308944#Comment_308944 2011-09-09T19:28:57-07:00 2013-05-24T20:39:48-07:00 jimmyjungle http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4591 Yeah,I know,I hesitated to mention those two actually,but Tulip from Preacher and Kit from Hellblazer and Halo Jones and Abby in swamp thing and Nina from the gents came to mind. and Moore's earlier ... and Moore's earlier work was dark all over,many of his characters came to gruesome ends,both genders,kids,johnny bates buggered ouch etc...
but it's a mixed bag wit dese comics man,aye,agreed.]]> Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=308946#Comment_308946 2011-09-09T19:39:45-07:00 2013-05-24T20:39:48-07:00 jimmyjungle http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4591 Also as far as the art goes,there is massive tit cheesecake garbage,but just don't buy it everyone and it'll die out,hopefully. And with the better artists,yeah,both genders are portrayed in ...
And with the better artists,yeah,both genders are portrayed in superhero comics with mostly perfect athletic physiques,sexualized,brimming with vitality....and who gives a fuck?That's the whole idea.
That's part of the 'soaring beyond the norm' vibe right?
If they looked like us all in spandex,I doubt I'd stick around to watch their exploits ,haha]]> Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=308950#Comment_308950 2011-09-09T20:46:16-07:00 2011-09-09T20:46:51-07:00 Val A Lindsay II http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1680 The comic that for me really emphasized female characters on the same plain as males was Love and Rockets, particularly Maggie. I absolutely loved how human the Hernandez brothers made their ... human the Hernandez brothers made their characters...

]]> Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=308952#Comment_308952 2011-09-09T22:00:09-07:00 2013-05-24T20:39:48-07:00 BrianMowrey http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1709 And with the better artists,yeah,both genders are portrayed in superhero comics with mostly perfect athletic physiques,sexualized,brimming with vitality Hm, a lot of male athletes don't actually ... And with the better artists,yeah,both genders are portrayed in superhero comics with mostly perfect athletic physiques,sexualized,brimming with vitality
Hm, a lot of male athletes don't actually look like body-builders though. They tend to have weird bodies. Because that is what pushing a body to the extreme does -- makes it extreme. And high-level athleticism in females radically diminishes feminine sexual traits, usually. Not that there's anything wrong with that -- on the contrary, when I hear female characters praised as "tough and sexy" or the like, I sort of want to think "has the speaker ever admired the body of an actual female athlete?" Tough-and-sexy is valid if you think tough in the female body is sexy, otherwise we're just back to porn star bodies doing outlandish batman shit (*footnote: actually a lot of porn actresses and models these days are very athletic! So, it floats my boat.)

Again, I'm not saying that Power Wonder Batgirl shouldn't exist -- as long as there is room in the world for more comics about punching robots, female characters should be doing it as much as men. But including writers of such works in examples of positive portrayals of female characters is like setting the standard down to "that writer who has his female characters driving cars!" Yes, female characters should drive cars. No, it is not advancing the cause of gender equality. It is no longer 1948.

Because, if we are going to float the idea that Hero comics portray exceptionally strong people, consider what an actual real-life girl tends to have to give up to become a world-class athlete compared to a man: they are risking social acceptance (both in terms of behavior and looks) where a male athlete is going to gain acceptance, and they are giving up the leisure and education time most children have with a much smaller pool of money and fame waiting at the top for those who succeed than men have. That is bold. Real human world-class athletes get to where they are by myriad sustained acts of self-negation, by opting out of fear and comfort in equal measure. Where is the comic celebrating women who have proven that they can do those things as well and better than men? It doesn't fucking have spandex in it. In the same vein, what about the American female Marine? Both males and females may have a tough time ahead when they enlist in the military, but the man can reckon his new muscles and haircut will increase sexual and social capital, whereas the woman will probably expect both things to scare off prospects in the bar when on leave. Unless they are lesbian -- in which case, for the last decade they just had to live a lie to keep their job, no sweat. And the male recruit can worry a lot less about being raped by his opposite-sex fellow soldiers (cliche alert! Also, statistically a huge reality.) The female again is putting more skin in the game. Also, what was it that soldiers did again? Oh yeah, fought our wars for us. Where is the comic about that?

It's fine if the comics on sale are the ones the market wants. But when we get around to measuring the medium for showing strong female characters, the things we say are good examples need to hold up against the negative space of actual human experience, where, again, it is no longer 1948.

Another thing to think about, because I know "realistic" is a four letter word for some, and yet there is a general idea that endless idealized bodies all perfectly make sense anyway -- that if an artist doesn't draw idealized characters they are fouling up action and fantasy fiction with pretentious posing:

Aren't a ton of fantasy and action stories centered on child characters? If a skinny man or short roundish woman can't be a fantasy hero, then shouldn't we make sure child heroes are portrayed as really ripped? Otherwise it's surely impossible to imagine them fighting a dragon! I think it is clear that the issue is more that we want to look at good looking people. My only point is that if an artist can break the molds for adult character physical form in a way that people still want to read, more power to them! There are a lot of artists who deserve credit for doing this already, especially those who have brought stylized linework back into the near-mainstream like Mitten and Templesmith.]]> Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=308954#Comment_308954 2011-09-09T22:11:24-07:00 2011-09-09T22:11:49-07:00 Alan Tyson http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1299 I don't have a huge amount to add (I'm learning more than I'm teaching in this thread, definitely), but I've noticed this: you can always tell which writers, and which artists, have had a lot of ...
The secret to writing and drawing realistic, interesting, cool women may just be to spend time hanging around with the same.]]> Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=308960#Comment_308960 2011-09-09T22:48:05-07:00 2013-05-24T20:39:48-07:00 mercurialblonde http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2444 I would put Tank Girl up as an example that you don't need realistic women to have interesting/cool women. Plus Tank Girl and others in the comic are half-naked a lot of the time, and it doesn't ... Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=308963#Comment_308963 2011-09-09T23:28:06-07:00 2013-05-24T20:39:48-07:00 lomopop http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=10128 The first comic I really got into was Promethea primarily because Sophie (while still thin and pretty) seemed fairly ordinary and easy to relate to. There's more emphasis on her story than her body ... Promethea primarily because Sophie (while still thin and pretty) seemed fairly ordinary and easy to relate to. There's more emphasis on her story than her body and she isn't defined in terms of her relationships. Her relationships are part of the story but they're not the only thing she thinks and talks about. I also really liked most (probably all but it was awhile ago so I can't quite remember) of the female characters in Top 10 for the same reasons.

I generally like the way that women are depicted in Fables. There's a diversity of personalities and relationships (even though they're exclusively heterosexual) when, in following traditional fables, it would have been easy to stick to stereotypes.

I really liked the way that Warren Ellis depicted the relationship between Channon Yarrow and Yelena Rossini in Transmetropolitan. It was a complicated relationship that wasn't dragged down by some of their stereotypical female behaviour. For me, the fact that they had a whole range of emotionally complex interactions ensured that moments which would otherwise have seemed stereotypically female seemed like a natural expression of their characters.

I think it goes without saying that both male and female characters could be more diverse. It would be nice if mainstream comics wasn't dominated by white characters and, when other ethnicities are represented, it would be nice if they weren't exoticized, hypersexualized, or stereotyped. It would be nice to see some larger women. It would also be nice to see some homosexual, bisexual, or other types of relationships without fetishizing them.

I do find it encouraging that so many people are looking for comics that portray women more positively.]]> Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=308964#Comment_308964 2011-09-09T23:43:05-07:00 2013-05-24T20:39:48-07:00 Alan Tyson http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1299 @lomopop: "They think I don't know what they do when I'm not around," and Darrick Robertson's portrayal of Channon's expression when she said it, is about as close to a real woman as I've ... Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=308968#Comment_308968 2011-09-10T00:36:44-07:00 2013-05-24T20:39:48-07:00 oddbill http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4272 One of the things I've always admired in Carla Speed McNeil's writing is that all the characters feel genuine in their gender, and the bodies they inhabit clearly have had a role in the kinds of ... Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=308971#Comment_308971 2011-09-10T03:14:08-07:00 2013-05-24T20:39:48-07:00 Ellen http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=10217 @ vandalhandle on the topic of Gart Ennis and “The Boys” I have been reading a lot of Gart Ennis lately, Preacher and ”the boys” mainly. Both are quite interesting to read with a bit of a ...
I have been reading a lot of Gart Ennis lately, Preacher and ”the boys” mainly. Both are quite interesting to read with a bit of a gender perspective, since the author obviously has had questions about gender and sexuality in mind while writing and use these themes as part of the plot. Some times rely obvious when main caracters discuss gender issues (Jesse and Tulip in preacher) or homofobia but also in his deliberate use of stereotypes, especially in ” The Boys” since it deals with the superhero genre.

There is a reason for naming the comic ”The Boys” when writing a sort of satire/parody dealing with a genre created for boys/men by boys/men with mainly male characters it is likely that it will be centred around men. But the female characters he does have are interesting, I can't decide what to think of them from a feminist perspective, but they apear to be writer with gender issues in mind.

The fact that he names the only girl in the boys ”the female” is not a coincidence. But her caracter is quite different from any standard girl hero, she is barely human with hardly any social abilities her dominant caracteristic is her extreme killing urge combined with her deadly superpowers, she is portrayed almost as the groups extreamly deadly cute pet monster. She is definitely a different female superhero but is she a "good" one?

The way some of the female characters are oppressed and sexually abused in this comic does have a function in highlighting the oppressive power structures with in the superhero community. But can probably be criticized in a million intelligent ways. It does disturb me a bit but I have not read the entire story so I will have to wait before I decide what to make of it.

The way Annie/Starlight is portrayed and how she is treated by the other superheroes and what is does to her is not done with out a thought behind it. Giving the big breasted superhero girl the ability to reflect on her situation is interesting. But the comics main objective is not to adress the issue of women in coomics and her role in the story is not that prominent ( at least not after the first 5 books that i have reda so far)

Then I don't know what to make of mister Ennis fascination with illustrating the moral decay caused by power and money with sexual perversion and orgies.. but I guess he has a point (money and power have mad people do all sorts of twisted thing trout history)...and writing orgy scenes is probably fun to :)

I feel that my language skills don't work in my favour here but I hope I make some kind of sense :)]]> Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=308999#Comment_308999 2011-09-10T10:43:10-07:00 2013-05-24T20:39:48-07:00 Yskaya http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1359 Regis Loisel is often referred to as a master of the fantasy genre within European circles (and outside) with his quintet (now septet) of 'the quest for the timebird' (Often compared to 'lord of ... Regis Loisel is often referred to as a master of the fantasy genre within European circles (and outside) with his quintet (now septet) of 'the quest for the timebird'
(Often compared to 'lord of the rings' original title: la Quête de l'Oiseau du Temps)

In which Hermelijn a willful young woman -in search of a cure for her mother the queen-
enlists a band of ragtag warriors with shady pasts in order to help her navigate the treacherous jungles.

The first story arc (books 1-5) have so much sub-themes I could take up this post alone explaining why I like it.

The most important reason for me is that the story is character driven.
Aside from this fact: crazy chimerean fauna designs. a 'balrog whip' and truly evil bad guy,
who has their own good motivation for being the big bad and everyone wins (or loses) in the end.

More recently Loisel has started a new series: Magasin General

Centered on a small village of which the main protagonists are exceptional (read differ very much from established norms) for their time.

Marie and Serge live in a small village in which Marie has made a living for herself running the local hardware store as a single woman,
a fact that the gossips never fail to mention. Serge comes from the city fleeing from his lover and the controversy.

Human relations in an enclosed social and geographical surrounding during one of the most exiting periods in American history
(baseball games, automobiles, make-up made available and socially acceptable by ms Arden and ms Rubenstein)

The artwork gives every person it's own visual characteristics.
Focusing for a bit on the depiction of women, they are pretty, vivacious, bland, prom queen aged well,
crones with bitter crinkles, Suffragettes and temptress college girls in the city...

Sadly I have not found any English translations as of yet.


But! For those wanting to try some other titles with strong female leads,
there's cinebook (uk) who sports a few translations from Thorgal and Valerian & Yoko Tsuno

Thorgal a graphic novel evergreen about the viking age, magic and sci-fi by v. Hamme and Rosinski.
Keep an eye out for Kris de Valnor a huntress, warriorqueen and perhaps also a Valkyrie, for the gods do so love to meddle in affairs.

'Valerian & Laureline' is another sc-fi worth checking out, time travelling agency duo (a la mr. steed & mrs peel)

Yoko Tsuno centers on a female detective (and again sci-fi) solving mysteries amongst her friend and galaxies,
more suited to the youngsters. 8+


*all links except cinebook are french. Try google translate for hilarious results.]]> Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=309007#Comment_309007 2011-09-10T12:40:28-07:00 2013-05-24T20:39:48-07:00 Infinite_Amanda http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=10550 Delurking to say: I really liked Manhunter during Marc Andreyko's run. Wish they'd bring her back, because I think the last time she shows up is in JSA and I think DC is giving that a nap during ...
Right now, I like Faith in the new Angel and Faith, but I don't know if that counts since the Whedonverse tends to craft reasonably well put together female characters to begin with and her character was well established before it was in a comic book.

Re: The Boys - I agree with EllenWR's thoughts on Annie. I also am interested in what they're beginning to explore in Queen Maeve. Is it a fair/balanced portrayal of a female character? Probably not, but I'm reading it so it at least has my attention.]]> Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=309021#Comment_309021 2011-09-10T17:01:56-07:00 2013-05-24T20:39:48-07:00 William George http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=7366 Val won the thread at Love & Rockets. Love & Rockets.]]> Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=309098#Comment_309098 2011-09-11T23:01:38-07:00 2013-05-24T20:39:48-07:00 Val A Lindsay II http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1680 (Can I win an internet thread? Nah...) I would second mercurialblonde's Tank Girl observation. I'll also add in Strangers in Paradise... Hell, I'll throw in Crumb's Devil Girl... And ... win an internet thread? Nah...) I would second mercurialblonde's Tank Girl observation. I'll also add in Strangers in Paradise...



Hell, I'll throw in Crumb's Devil Girl...



And this last one might be more of a way to emphasize the distaste I have for the super-hero Barbie proportioned characters. Devil Girl is considered one of Crumb's more 'powerful' creations with a heavy emphasis on female sexuality, especially his own tastes. But there is no attempt at hiding this. She's in fact a vehicle that generates controversy and discussion. Comics are a brilliant media for this. Now I'll compare her to a mainstream, rather innocuous character, Storm...



There's only one purpose I can perceive in this and that's to draw in and please what would be considered the core audience; Teenage boys. It never really drew me in, though. In fact it probably made reading things from indie labels more desirable. As a human being I can personally relate more to Enid and Rebecca's trials and tribulations than to Superman's problems any day of the week!

]]> Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=309113#Comment_309113 2011-09-12T04:20:43-07:00 2011-09-12T04:21:00-07:00 Paul Duffield http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6 "One of the things I've always admired in Carla Speed McNeil's writing is that all the characters feel genuine in their gender, and the bodies they inhabit clearly have had a role in the kinds ... "One of the things I've always admired in Carla Speed McNeil's writing is that all the characters feel genuine in their gender, and the bodies they inhabit clearly have had a role in the kinds of people they became"

Yeah, this! Me too! Gender equality is different from gender neutrality, and it can be hard to both write responsibly and retain that fact that each of our mind/bodies are a physical reality with their own unique social output and feedback that shapes us. When you bear this in mind, I think the characters in a fictional piece can go beyond being representative of some ideal that is considered "male" or "female" (positively or negatively), and become their own beings who have their own identity both independent of, but still influenced by a gender identity.]]> Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=309116#Comment_309116 2011-09-12T04:36:47-07:00 2013-05-24T20:39:48-07:00 vandalhandle http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4586 @ellenwr, my probelem with the boys and the gender issue is that annie was degraded, and the degradation is at least partly the motivation to move her relationship with a hughie along, it feels ... Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=309120#Comment_309120 2011-09-12T07:04:19-07:00 2013-05-24T20:39:48-07:00 Richard Pace http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=320 I don't have a problem with cheesecake comics -- as long as they're honest about it. I have no problem with unreal women is super hero comics considering the males are equally unrealistic ...
I do have problems when creative teams are dishonest about their content. If you're drawing Red Sonja girls in chain-mail bikini's admit you're doing it for the cheesecake factor and don't waste my time with BS explanations about why she dresses this way in a blatant attempt to curry some feminist points because that dog don't hunt.]]> Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=309125#Comment_309125 2011-09-12T07:55:12-07:00 2013-05-24T20:39:48-07:00 William George http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=7366 I always thought "She has big tits" was a good enough explanation for Powergirl's boob window. Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=309171#Comment_309171 2011-09-12T15:13:16-07:00 2013-05-24T20:39:48-07:00 Mercer Finn http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5496 admit you're doing it for the cheesecake factor How? I'd much rather creators at least TALK about the existence of cheesecake and try to justify it in some way, rather than be "honest" ... admit you're doing it for the cheesecake factor

How? I'd much rather creators at least TALK about the existence of cheesecake and try to justify it in some way, rather than be "honest" ... doesn't that just lead to silent conformity?

...I'm not particularly comfortable with the rape-victim angle to the character (it's getting to the point where almost ALL ladies who wants to kick ass need this kind of trauma as motive). But I am in favour of blatant attempts to curry some feminist points. Why is that a bad thing?]]> Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=309172#Comment_309172 2011-09-12T15:20:05-07:00 2013-05-24T20:39:48-07:00 Mercer Finn http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5496 From what I've read, I like Power Girl a lot -- it's doing a lot of things Dan Slott's She-Hulk did. But again, I think the boob window needs a better explanation that "she has big tits". ... Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=309173#Comment_309173 2011-09-12T15:22:21-07:00 2013-05-24T20:39:48-07:00 Mercer Finn http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5496 become their own beings who have their own identity both independent of, but still influenced by a gender identity. That's the holy grail right there. become their own beings who have their own identity both independent of, but still influenced by a gender identity.

That's the holy grail right there.]]> Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=309174#Comment_309174 2011-09-12T15:25:23-07:00 2013-05-24T20:39:48-07:00 oldhat http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=75 This is such an amazing thread. I'm glad that the last thread turned in to this. I don't really have anything to add other than I have been falling in love with Big Barda the more I see her in ...
I don't really have anything to add other than I have been falling in love with Big Barda the more I see her in comics. Moments like this, for instance:

]]> Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=309177#Comment_309177 2011-09-12T15:52:57-07:00 2013-05-24T20:39:48-07:00 Richard Pace http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=320 How? I'd much rather creators at least TALK about the existence of cheesecake and try to justify it in some way, rather than be "honest" ... doesn't that just lead to silent conformity? ... How? I'd much rather creators at least TALK about the existence of cheesecake and try to justify it in some way, rather than be "honest" ... doesn't that just lead to silent conformity?

Not sure where the difficulty lies in this. Artist says "I really wanted to draw a sexy girl uncomfortably-yet-seductively-posed in highly improbable armor." instead of "Her shiny metal bra and silvery panties distract and fluster her opponents and make them easier to defeat."

I'm not of a mind to think that cheesecake (or beefcake, for that matter) has to be justified in and of itself and not at all certain how that would lead to any sort of conformity.

~R]]> Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=309184#Comment_309184 2011-09-12T16:35:42-07:00 2013-05-24T20:39:48-07:00 scs http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=7988 Forty posts in and no-one has mentioned Gail Simone? Tsk tsk. Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=309185#Comment_309185 2011-09-12T16:44:35-07:00 2011-09-12T16:45:31-07:00 Richard Pace http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=320 Gail Simone? I think she's competent, but overrated based on what I've read. That being said, the DCU has been a creative wasteland for so long even competence would stand out. Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=309188#Comment_309188 2011-09-12T17:32:08-07:00 2013-05-24T20:39:48-07:00 William George http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=7366 Artist says "I really wanted to draw a sexy girl uncomfortably-yet-seductively-posed in highly improbable armor." instead of "Her shiny metal bra and silvery panties distract and ... Artist says "I really wanted to draw a sexy girl uncomfortably-yet-seductively-posed in highly improbable armor." instead of "Her shiny metal bra and silvery panties distract and fluster her opponents and make them easier to defeat."

Right. Because one is true and the other is complete bullshit designed to justify something that didn't need justifying in the first place.]]> Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=309189#Comment_309189 2011-09-12T17:36:46-07:00 2013-05-24T20:39:48-07:00 mercurialblonde http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2444 I like Gail Simone. I feel bad that she has to be the one who carries all of the weight for "women in superhero comics". Seems like she's the one people to go to argue with. And she's ... Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=309190#Comment_309190 2011-09-12T17:39:04-07:00 2013-05-24T20:39:48-07:00 mercurialblonde http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2444 I would prefer that they didn't try to explain Red Sonja's armor and just told good stories with the character. Red Sonja looks how she looks. She's iconic like Wonder Woman. Just accept that she ... Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=309194#Comment_309194 2011-09-12T18:26:20-07:00 2011-09-12T18:41:45-07:00 Richard Pace http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=320 I've met Gail and she's a completely charming person and I like what I've seen her write outside of comic on the net, but she doesn't push her work in directions that would interest me, which is ... Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=309196#Comment_309196 2011-09-12T19:00:16-07:00 2013-05-24T20:39:48-07:00 mercurialblonde http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2444 To be honest, how much of what comes out of the big two, is really pushing anything in any direction of interest. Those books are almost by genre designed to be some sort of static background for ... Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=309210#Comment_309210 2011-09-12T22:34:36-07:00 2013-05-24T20:39:48-07:00 jonah http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6503 It's hard because I only really notice when it's done wrong. The meager examples I can think up other than what's been mentioned are the short Jessie Lopez De La Cruz and Mother Jones comics by ...
The meager examples I can think up other than what's been mentioned are the short Jessie Lopez De La Cruz and Mother Jones comics by Joe Sacco included in the book "By the Folks That Brought You the Weekend".

I know there's an Emma Goldman bio-comic, never read it....just searched for an image and found a blog devoted to jewish women in comics! Some are auto-bio and all auto-bio comics get it "right", I guess, unless you doubt the veracity of the of author.

It's been ages since I read Doom Patrol by Grant Morrison and then Rachel Pollack and I remember finding all the characters interesting, but I can't say for sure.

Ironically, sci-fi and fantasy should be places where women can easily be portrayed well, but too much of the time aren't. Although, a lot of stories take place in dystopian settings...

@Paul Duffield RE: Gender swapping/neutrality.
I've heard other people mention this, but I can't think of anything I've noticed. Could you point me to some specific examples of where it doesn't work? I've seen (too many) examples of a writer making a woman act like a stereotypical man, complete with clunky writing where the character points this out, but that's equally as unappealing to me as reading about a stereotypical man in the first place. I don't think that's what you mean in this case.

Conversely, couldn't men be switched for women with no one noticing? Why isn't it Hermione Potter and Harry Granger? I know there are different issues men and women face, but is addressing either of these a requirement for the story? Often times, I think that in an attempt to address gender specific issues the writer will fall back on stereotypes and inadvertently perpetuate them. In fact, I'd say a fair amount of gender specific issues that men and women face in real life are as a result of gender stereotypes.]]> Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=309227#Comment_309227 2011-09-13T10:12:35-07:00 2013-05-24T20:39:48-07:00 Jason A. Quest http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5192 "But I am in favour of blatant attempts to curry some feminist points. Why is that a bad thing? " Because it's probably dishonest? I see it as a matter of creative integrity. I don't ...
Because it's probably dishonest? I see it as a matter of creative integrity. I don't want to read Dave Sim's self-censored Cerebus; I'd rather read Dave Sim's Cerebus, misogyny and all, because it says something I don't already know.]]> Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=309229#Comment_309229 2011-09-13T11:11:22-07:00 2011-09-13T11:12:13-07:00 Mercer Finn http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5496 I don't think it's necessarily dishonest. I suspect Oeming or whoever thought quite hard about how to write an empowered character who has to nevertheless pander to the male gaze. It's called out, ... called out, which forces the reader to think about what the writer was thinking about... for me, that's more rewarding than just reproducing the sexualized image w/o comment.

Red Sonja is iconic, but her 'look' obv carries certain connotations. Arguably, Wonder Woman's character has been hamstrung from the very beginning by being both a symbol of female power and an expression of her creator's sexual fetishes. I mean, how do you square that circle? It's unsurprising that she's such a hard character to write (the best WW story I've read also calls out the problem).

As for honest misogyny... well, OK... but it's still misogyny, so idk if that make the whole "women's portrayal in comics" problem any better.

And if the scoring of feminist points is DISHONEST, well then we should all be prepared to call bullshit on whatever comic tries to do it. But then the argument becomes "that's not good enough", not "just give up on the feminism already".]]> Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=309235#Comment_309235 2011-09-13T12:12:42-07:00 2011-09-13T12:15:41-07:00 joe.distort http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1173 one of the problems i see with comics currently is exemplified by this thread- theres more people talking about things that upset them in this thread than theres been people discussing actual comic ...
short version: lately i see more people that barely read comics complaining about comics than actual comics discussion and it bums me out.

(and as another side note, that shit that happened when Wolfer tried to promote WAR GODDESS? what the hell happened there? this site is RUN BY AVATAR. you might not like the book [i dont have any interest in it] but that shit was ridiculous. it was the first time i though 'Shit, this place is gonna go to hell without Warren')]]> Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=309236#Comment_309236 2011-09-13T12:28:58-07:00 2013-05-24T20:39:48-07:00 brianwood http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1566 "theres a lot more internet-grumbling about problems people feel strongly about/ feel like they are supposed to feel strongly about than any actual comics reading/discussion ...
"lately i see more people that barely read comics complaining about comics than actual comics discussion and it bums me out."


That's been my experience since I first logged onto comic book forums in 1996.

b]]> Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=309240#Comment_309240 2011-09-13T12:58:42-07:00 2013-05-24T20:39:48-07:00 Jason A. Quest http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5192 If a writer is being honest and writing from his own point of view, he isn't doing "blatantly" to "curry points"; he's just doing it. "idk if that make the whole ...
"idk if that make the whole "women's portrayal in comics" problem any better."

I didn't say it would. I'm strongly in support of portraying women better in comics (and try to do it myself, just because I want to). It's just that I'd rather have honest misogyny (and honest blasphemy, etc) than writers letting other people dictate how they write. Creative freedom is more important to me than any particular social or political agenda.]]> Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=309241#Comment_309241 2011-09-13T13:53:15-07:00 2011-09-13T13:57:29-07:00 Mercer Finn http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5496 isn't doing "blatantly" to "curry points"; he's just doing it. OK my bad, I wasn't clear. I didn't think the expressions "blatantly" and 'curry points" ... isn't doing "blatantly" to "curry points"; he's just doing it.

OK my bad, I wasn't clear. I didn't think the expressions "blatantly" and 'curry points" necessarily suggested dishonesty, which is why I used them: you can be obvious and declare yr support for certain ideologies / movements / whatever while being perfectly sincere -- i.e. "just doing" the writing thang.

writers letting other people dictate how they write


It's all about how strong the meaning of "dictate" is. I mean, creative endeavour is always conditioned by context to some extent. We are never free to write perfectly honestly because we collect and reproduce too many ideas that come from other people. When disseminating art, we are limited by the law and by propriety. Now, I think the case has been made very well that censorship is bad. But there's nothing wrong with telling someone that what he thinks / argues is not OK.

ETA: What I'm saying is that Sim should be allowed to publish if he wants. But it would be great if he GOT THE MESSAGE that the misogyny thing wasn't so hot and maybe he should think about it some more if he wants to keep his audience.]]> Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=309244#Comment_309244 2011-09-13T13:59:48-07:00 2013-05-24T20:39:48-07:00 Mercer Finn http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5496 Also: since I haven't read any of Sim's work, I'll take the hint and shut up now. Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=309248#Comment_309248 2011-09-13T14:11:25-07:00 2013-05-24T20:39:48-07:00 oldhat http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=75 Just to lighten things up here...
]]> Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=309272#Comment_309272 2011-09-13T17:22:56-07:00 2011-09-13T17:24:15-07:00 William George http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=7366 How do you write women? You want them to be natural, but at the same time you don't want it to just be a man in a wig. Dear comic; You write a character and you leave the gender studies stuff ... How do you write women? You want them to be natural, but at the same time you don't want it to just be a man in a wig.

Dear comic;

You write a character and you leave the gender studies stuff to the first year sociology students. Nothing about the conflicts in Hamlet or Hercules requires those characters own a penis before their conflicts can have validity. Hercules owning a vagina would not make the Twelve Labors any less heroic.They are men because social expectations say that kings must be men, but that's not your problem. Since you are God to your fictional world your fictional vagina owners can be tormented by the ghosts of their murdered fathers just as easily as anyone else.

Thank you for your time.

- W.G.]]> Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=309274#Comment_309274 2011-09-13T17:49:42-07:00 2013-05-24T20:39:48-07:00 jimmyjungle http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4591 Oy scs,I mentioned simone ages ago! I did! Me good boy. I think alot of this is the two stormfronts of our current culture with it's touches of narcissism and victimhood smashing up against these ... Me good boy.
I think alot of this is the two stormfronts of our current culture with it's touches of narcissism and victimhood smashing up against these fantastical comic universe cultures and alot of people come out of the experience feeling sorta flat about themselves and who they are,so they want to inflict 'realistic' proportions upon the bodies AND minds of these characters,so they're always adjusting their wedgies and worrying about bills ...
Let's not force too much of our crippling mediocrity (ha) on these poor characters,they're meant to be wildly fucking awesome and deep and majestic yes?I mean we can make them more sophisticated and satisfying for it's own sake,
Evolving Their Universes without feeling the need to be specifically "represented".
Ah, I dunno ,I'm still slightly high from earlier.
And William George is cool.
And Brian Wood is a brilliant writer,
Tata]]> Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=309282#Comment_309282 2011-09-13T18:24:31-07:00 2011-09-13T18:32:07-07:00 Alan Tyson http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1299 @William George: I kinda think that was part of the joke. I mean, you're RIGHT in so far as you don't write "men" or "women" one way or another, and I think that's the point that ... Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=309285#Comment_309285 2011-09-13T19:28:30-07:00 2011-09-13T20:14:09-07:00 oldhat http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=75 EDIT: What Alan said. Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=309290#Comment_309290 2011-09-13T20:10:12-07:00 2011-09-13T20:12:22-07:00 ebullientsoul http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=7705 "lately i see more people that barely read comics complaining about comics than actual comics discussion and it bums me out." Then let's get back to why the authors who get it right get ... "lately i see more people that barely read comics complaining about comics than actual comics discussion and it bums me out."

Then let's get back to why the authors who get it right get it right.

First: Most of the people already posting are correct.

Second: I THINK why those authors get it right is because they write characters who are female that are persons even if they're not human beings.


EDITED TO USE THE WORD RIGHT LESS. I THREW IN CORRECT.]]> Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=309306#Comment_309306 2011-09-13T22:22:45-07:00 2011-09-13T22:43:15-07:00 William George http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=7366 *sigh* Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=309337#Comment_309337 2011-09-14T07:26:25-07:00 2011-09-14T07:27:30-07:00 Paul Duffield http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6 Regarding the comments along the lines of "why can't cheesecake just be unapologetic cheesecake", and "it's thought provoking when someone in a skimpy costume gets called out for ...
The problem with inappropriate sexualisation of characters (since there are plenty of appropriate ways to explore a character's sexuality) is that it seems like something about the character that feels incongruous - out of place. This begs the questions: what does how you dress, and how you pose your body say about you and your mind-set? When is it appropriate for a particular person with a particular set of traits to be portrayed cheesecakily, and what constitutes incongruity in such a character?

These may sound simple, but I think they are HUGE character questions, and they touch upon seriously loaded topics. I don't know how to broach them properly. We know what cheesecake poses are, we know what cheesecake costumes are like, but what makes up the corresponding "cheesecake mind"? What might the possible range of character traits for a "cheesecake woman" be? Does such a creature even exist? I've got to be honest, as a guy I don't feel properly qualified to answer those questions: I appreciate and understand cheesecake aesthetically, but psychologically...? That's complex.

Because of this, cheesecake with uninformed "feminist" meta-commentary inserted by the author is actually quite a dangerous playground, since chances are high that such commentary will be just as insipid (carry just as many inaccurate and harmful social assumptions) as the unaltered cheesecake itself.

I'd even go so far as to say that an ideal is actually reinforced when under attack by an uninformed critique like this. This sort of process gives people who were sympathetic to the ideal in the first place a false sense of security in their conviction. I see this process happen time and time again with feminist rhetoric - a male dominated society is questioned in an uninformed or aggressive manner, and the questions are dismissed easily & legitimately; the status quo is reinforced, "feminism" is characterised as shrill and unintelligent - and all the while genuine arguments, and REAL feminism (a fascinating and powerful field of social study) goes unnoticed. Likewise, any author/artist who feels it's necessary to build a narrative around scantily clad women in provocative poses is likely to expose their real intentions in the process of "subverting" their own work.

This doesn't mean I've got anything against people addressing feminist issues like that if they can, but I am saying it's HARD to do right! And so easy to do wrong! It's one of the most complex social/economic/political/personal issues out there, made up of assumptions and attitudes that are deeply ingrained in even the most thoughtful people - I fully hope that people tackle it, and love it when they do, but it requires a lot of effort to do so in a form that doesn't subvert its own efforts.

I'd love it if someone knew of any comics that have tried to use cheesecake tropes to critique them, and succeeded in creating a piece which doesn't invalidate itself.]]> Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=309341#Comment_309341 2011-09-14T08:53:48-07:00 2013-05-24T20:39:48-07:00 JECole http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=7834 63 Posts and not a single mention of Posy Simmonds? Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=309342#Comment_309342 2011-09-14T08:59:12-07:00 2013-05-24T20:39:48-07:00 Mercer Finn http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5496 I'd love it if someone knew of any comics that have tried to use cheesecake tropes to critique them, and succeeded in creating a piece which doesn't invalidate itself. I haven't read it (AGAIN ... I'd love it if someone knew of any comics that have tried to use cheesecake tropes to critique them, and succeeded in creating a piece which doesn't invalidate itself.

I haven't read it (AGAIN failing the Brian Wood test!) but I've heard Adam Warren's Empowered series might be a place to look... although the aim is not straight out "critique" so much as problematizing / rehabilitating cheesecake by registering the potential negative effects it can have on people / society. It's something I think Slott did with She-Hulk, but my standards about this kind of commentary are perhaps lower than most. I quite like ridiculous cheesecake if the appropriate disclaimers are present to make me feel uncomfortable about it. I accept that this isn't gonna shake-up the patriarchy much, but I'll stick to the point that it's better than nothing.

Also: Maybe interesting to talk about Kaare Andrews uglifying of Emma Frost in this context.]]> Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=309348#Comment_309348 2011-09-14T09:58:10-07:00 2013-05-24T20:39:48-07:00 Jason A. Quest http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5192 We know what cheesecake poses are, we know what cheesecake costumes are like, but what makes up the corresponding "cheesecake mind"?I can think of a few kinds of women who dress in skimpy ... We know what cheesecake poses are, we know what cheesecake costumes are like, but what makes up the corresponding "cheesecake mind"?I can think of a few kinds of women who dress in skimpy clothes and present themselves as sexually available. The most common are flirts and prostitutes: women who are simply using their sexuality to attract men. Neither of which tend to be written as protagonists or well-rounded supporting characters. Another is a woman who uses her sexuality to intimidate men. Which exists, but I've met very few of them, and the ones I've known have done that through the things they said and did rather than by how they dressed and posed. They appear mostly in fiction... as an excuse for drawing cheesecake, not as a reason for it. The only other kind I can think of would be women who use it to manipulate men, basically pretending to be sexually available to get them to do things they wouldn't do for other people. That's not so much a "cheesecake mind" as it is another kind of person pretending to be a flirt.]]> Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=309352#Comment_309352 2011-09-14T10:52:00-07:00 2013-05-24T20:39:48-07:00 Paul Duffield http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6 @Jason A. Quest I could bring up that list as well, but I think you're right, it's one that lives more in fiction than life. Like a repository of character clichés that's stored and transmitted ... I could bring up that list as well, but I think you're right, it's one that lives more in fiction than life. Like a repository of character clichés that's stored and transmitted throughout society mimetically (often via "innocent" entertainment), finding a place in the minds and on the tongues of men and women who feel that they can identify such people from their life experience.

I think the problem comes from the difficulty we all have identifying complex motivations in strangers or in groups of people from other socio-economic backgrounds. We all know there's a difference between someone's job and someone's life, someone's apparent and actual motivation, someone's sexual attitude and personal ideals, but when the sexual attitude is intimidating, or the job hard to understand, or the economic group too far from us, we forget that those distinctions are common to every human being, and mentally turn human beings into "foreigners".

I guess because those differences make all the difference when actually writing a character, they're also the very hardest thing to imagine and access when we deal with a "foreign" character ... and let's face it, in an industry whose mainstream is an evolution of geek culture from 30+ years ago & crammed full of male writers, the woman is often a foreigner.

BUT, if you look outside the mainstream it's not true at all (I personally know more female independent creators than male), so it also gets easy to get mired in the DC/Marvelverse and forget there's a whole universe of comics from other cultures, in other languages and other genres where very little is truly foreign!]]> Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=309416#Comment_309416 2011-09-15T09:27:43-07:00 2011-09-15T13:19:45-07:00 jonah http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6503 ETA: Mea culpa. You were quoting joe.distort. ETA2: I totally suck, Local is on the 1st page. Anyway... Hope Larson. @brianwood Now you are complaining about people complaining! :) And you ... ETA2: I totally suck, Local is on the 1st page. Anyway... Hope Larson.

@brianwood
Now you are complaining about people complaining! :) And you didn't mention any comics to check out either! But you have due cause to be bitter because no one mentioned the fabulous Local! :) And I still remember reading this channel zero review in my early teens! Too many exclamation points! While I'm on the Brian Wood love train I should point out that with Demo I remember relating to quite a few of the characters. It was a really powerful work and I need to re-buy the singles that I lost.

I don't feel like this thread is complaining (which I would define as entitled whining), so much as putting it out there that possibly there is an audience for this and some discussion around the issues?

While I'm editing things:

Is Northlanders realistic? AKA unrelentingly depressing?
---
Talking specifically about women in super-hero fantasy comics seems to be missing the forest for the trees? These fantasy comics are fueled by society's depiction of idealized roles and bodies (that by design are unattainable to most). Mix in a dash of base fear and desire and you end up with an interesting representation of the Id and aspirations of a subset of (adult) males. Am I over-generalizing? Yes. Anyway, they aren't my cup of tea (not enough training montages), but I understand why they exist and don't have a problem with it.

Besides, I think working from the top down would accomplish more than from the bottom up? I mean, wouldn't it make sense to attempt to re-tool the perception that punching someone in the face is anything other than hilarious and/or stupidly cathartic? A person than helps society stop using violence as a solution is a hero. A person that works a thankless, dead-end job 'til the day they die to support their family is tough. Is a character either of those things when winning is a foregone conclusion? For me, not so much.]]> Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=309435#Comment_309435 2011-09-15T13:40:05-07:00 2013-05-24T20:39:48-07:00 mercurialblonde http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2444 The Amanda Waller slim-down in this week's Suicide Squad is exactly the kind of thing that DOES actually offend me. More than any cheesecake art ever possibly could. Because it means someone sat ...
That kind of thing IS disgusting.]]> Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=309493#Comment_309493 2011-09-16T06:06:06-07:00 2013-05-24T20:39:48-07:00 Mercer Finn http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5496 a whole universe of comics from other cultures The portrayal of women in Japanese manga or european BD might need their own threads, but I'm not sure if this gender / sexual / racial 'othering' is ... a whole universe of comics from other cultures

The portrayal of women in Japanese manga or european BD might need their own threads, but I'm not sure if this gender / sexual / racial 'othering' is any less prevalent there. My suspicion (I'm no expert, so it will remain a suspicion) is that mainstream American comics acquit themselves rather well on the women front in comparison with these other mainstream comix traditions. The only solution, as Paul suggested previously, is to seek out those cultural spaces where female / gay / minority creators can be found... unfortunately they are often quite hard to find...

Also: Hope Larson is the best.]]> Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=310003#Comment_310003 2011-09-22T15:02:20-07:00 2013-05-24T20:39:48-07:00 Mathias B http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2162 I found this essay by Laura Hudson both intelligent and moving: http://www.comicsalliance.com/2011/09/22/starfire-catwoman-sex-superheroine/ Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=310052#Comment_310052 2011-09-23T07:06:33-07:00 2013-05-24T20:39:48-07:00 sellmeyoursoul http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=9518 @Mathias - I was just about to post that link. For the lazy among us, here it is again, but clicky like. I can't figure out how to link to it, but @Brandon Seifert has a really good post on g+ about ... here it is again, but clicky like. I can't figure out how to link to it, but @Brandon Seifert has a really good post on g+ about the article/issue from his POV as a writer.

Also thanks to everyone for a great conversation that I totally missed (thanks week-long illness). I started this thread because A - it was something we were discussing elsewhere B - I'm a writer who'd like to not get it wrong (as much as possible) and C - I have a little girl and I would like to be able to share my love of comics with her. I don't know if I have much to add that hasn't already been said. You guys and gals (er... women) rock!]]> Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=310123#Comment_310123 2011-09-23T21:12:02-07:00 2013-05-24T20:39:48-07:00 Richard Pace http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=320 Popped over to the forum to do the spleen venting, but think this might go here too.
Popped over to the forum to do the spleen venting, but think this might go here too.]]> Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=310134#Comment_310134 2011-09-23T22:11:40-07:00 2013-05-24T20:39:48-07:00 Jon Wake http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1684 And with that issue of Catwoman, I am officially done with mainstream books until the shape the fuck up and rejoin the 21st century. Christ shit, act your goddamn age, DC. Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=310168#Comment_310168 2011-09-24T06:10:46-07:00 2013-05-24T20:39:48-07:00 Mercer Finn http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5496 I don't read DC, so that article by Laura Hudson was a shock. I sorta rated Judd Winick and Kenneth Rocafort, but the work they've done here is an embarrassment. Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=310178#Comment_310178 2011-09-24T08:13:16-07:00 2013-05-24T20:39:48-07:00 William George http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=7366 My only problem with it is how dishonest they are about making a fanservice comic. Own it, boys!
Own it, boys!]]> Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=310202#Comment_310202 2011-09-24T11:39:09-07:00 2011-09-24T23:24:02-07:00 BrianMowrey http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1709 Women are in the spotlight as DC Comics ‘All New 52’ rollout continues Wonder Woman, Supergirl, Catwoman, and the Birds of Prey are among the 12 new #1’s this week. By Rich Clabaugh / ... Women are in the spotlight as DC Comics ‘All New 52’ rollout continues
Wonder Woman, Supergirl, Catwoman, and the Birds of Prey are among the 12 new #1’s this week.

By Rich Clabaugh / September 21, 2011 - Christian Science Monitor

Catwoman #1, written by Judd Winick and illustrated by Guillem March, promises to be an exciting crime caper book with snappy dialogue and some gorgeous art.
Ha.

There was more unzipping than snapping


Sep 22nd 2011 By: Laura Hudson
The Big Sexy Problem with Superheroines and Their 'Liberated Sexuality'
And that is the whole problem with this false notion of "sexually liberated" female characters: These aren't those women. They're how dudes want to imagine those women would be -- what Wire creator David Simon called writing "men with t*ts." They read like men's voices coming out of women's faces. Or worse, they read like the straight girls who make out with each other clubs, not because they enjoy making out with women but because they desperately want guys to pay attention to them.

This is not about these women wanting things; it's about men wanting to see them do things, and that takes something that really should be empowering -- the idea that women can own their sexuality -- and transforms it into yet another male fantasy.

To what Hudson wrote, I would add that comic creators often don't seem to be aware that the medium influences context, that twice as much attention should go into how things are displayed in comics because in comics, everything is displayed. This is especially true for sex. If you are making a movie or TV show, you have to do work to influence whether the footage of two people having sex has the atmosphere of a document or a drama. In film it is easy to use sex to show something about the character because you just edit it with an eye toward dispassionate realism. In a comic, it is hard to do that. By default, you are glamorizing and stylizing -- you are not communicating meaning. (just putting narration squares over your porn doesn't fix this, Winick!). So your characters become dolls unless you do the presentation really correctly. As I said in the previousous thread, if your goal is to make a story about sex, that is not a problem -- and stories about sex can be great. But if your goal is to make a story about dramatic action starring the sexy girl who has sex, then you need to include that without eroticising an action story, or you make the audience think you don't really have a good action story to tell.

Typed on mobile]]> Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=310205#Comment_310205 2011-09-24T12:40:07-07:00 2013-05-24T20:39:48-07:00 BrianMowrey http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1709 Though to comment more specifically on the presentation of sex in this week's controversial catwoman: I don't really get where the claims that the scene is 'explicit' and shows penetration come ...
I don't really get where the claims that the scene is 'explicit' and shows penetration come from. First, because it's not the point: the comic fails because it undercuts its own characters and stories and in light of the expectations DC created around their project, undercuts the perception of the medium amon the whole Western world as a source for good portrayals of female characters. But in terms of naughtiness I don't see it as different than an above-the-shoulders shot of two people under a blanket. It's earlier when CW is jumping around that the creators offer their [tasteful!] moneyshot of her crotch.

Second, can we really blame Winick here? He's been writing Batman for a while. So when he got the chance to occupy a female character who Batman wouldn't reject, he used her to finally imagine having sex with big Brucey. I submit, without having read the comic, that the fantasy on display here is not a fantasy of interaction with a woman but with a man! And who wouldn't. It is clear from how much grown men read about Batman that he attracts the attention of our sex very strongly.]]> Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=310220#Comment_310220 2011-09-24T15:37:35-07:00 2011-09-24T15:39:28-07:00 Jason A. Quest http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5192 It isn't that the scene depicts penetration in the way that a porn video does, but that it depicts it to the point that plausible deniability is gone. With the shoulders shot under a blanket, or ... Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=310221#Comment_310221 2011-09-24T15:48:07-07:00 2013-05-24T20:39:48-07:00 DavidLejeune http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4220 There is no way to read that scene and not conclude that Bruce's cock is in Selina's pussy.Other than the fact that they both still have pants on. There is no way to read that scene and not conclude that Bruce's cock is in Selina's pussy.Other than the fact that they both still have pants on.]]> Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=310224#Comment_310224 2011-09-24T16:04:22-07:00 2013-05-24T20:39:48-07:00 BrianMowrey http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1709 Other than the fact that they both still have pants on. WHAT PART OF TIBETAN NINJA TRAINING DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND? Other than the fact that they both still have pants on.
WHAT PART OF TIBETAN NINJA TRAINING DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND?]]> Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=310232#Comment_310232 2011-09-24T17:42:35-07:00 2013-05-24T20:39:48-07:00 andycon http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=10109 dry humping in leather and bullet proof spandex must chafe like a mother fucker. Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=310233#Comment_310233 2011-09-24T17:46:56-07:00 2013-05-24T20:39:48-07:00 Alan Tyson http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1299 Oooookay, I don't really want to see this thread nuked, because it's been pointing me in some interesting directions. I think we can all agree that the Catwoman issue sucked, and get back to GOOD ... Women's Portrayal in Comics http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10204&Focus=310254#Comment_310254 2011-09-24T22:47:29-07:00 2013-05-24T20:39:48-07:00 BrianMowrey http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1709 Alright, fine. We'll go back to our chairs and play the concerto while the Titanic sinks - A good example of female characters: Mitsuru Adachi's H2: Primarily this is a baseball ...
while the Titanic sinks


- A good example of female characters:

Mitsuru Adachi's H2:



Primarily this is a baseball manga about boys playing baseball. It is not about girls. By strictest story-centric definitions, H2's female characters only exist to provide fodder for the personal growth of the male characters. Except, that's not really true at all. Because they are fully-fleshed-out humans who merely happen to be comfortably existing in the same space that the story occupies.



Haruka and Hikari -- despite being assertive, strong-willed, serious-and-constantly-busy, smart, and athletic -- are also very comfortable with occupying feminine gender roles. They are not out to challenge Japan's expectations of them. Their life ambitions are to be a stewardess and baseball player's wife (Haruka) and to be a professional sports writer (Hikari). We see them display athletic skill but never seek to prove themselves against boys. Princess Nine this manga is not. Instead, Haruka and Hikari to differing degrees channel their personal ambition into the boytriarchy: Haruka is the coalescing force that creates the baseball team at Senkawa High and restores Hiro to his calling; Hikari wants to be a sports writer instead of a player, and is already anonymously writing local articles that her uncle is submitting to his paper as being written by 'his girlfriend'. Both spend a lot of time taking care of responsibilities that are centered around family and school, which includes men. But in this way, they still show lots of heart and guts and savvy. They show that a girl/woman does not in all cases and by total definition have to take on masculine statuses and exclusive realms to be brave and fulfilled.



On the other hand, a lot of the author's panel-space is given to panty shots. It's got a lot of the problems with portrayal of women that in Japanese comics we can take for granted; though unrealistic body-forms is not one. It's got a lot of the awkward excesses that a single-creator fiction will tend to have. H2 is not The Perfect Comic for Portrayal of Women. Instead, it is the perfect portrayal of these women. It is dedicated to a naturalistic, apolitical document of their lives. The most significant thing it does to give the female characters solidity is to show the moments when they are by themselves and not doing anything interesting, but just being.



H2 is on the scanlation-net for free reading

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