Not signed in (Sign In)
This discussion has been inactive for longer than 5 days, and doesn't want to be resurrected.
    • CommentTimeOct 12th 2011 edited
    @Artenshiur, completely d´acord

    starting a protest without direction or a defined purpose is ultimately pointless.

    @Mhengla, that´s not true! There´s a very well defined planing of things that should be changed, despite the lack of options that the Sistem allows. There´s a very well defined purpose. Oh, yes it is! ... Do you want me to tell you what to demand in your country & how to do it?

    Truth be told, little is actually happening.

    What?! are you serious? We are living in Planet Earth, man, & people are learning how to use the web, & the first world is thrilled because of their own gobernments , & the rich people are growing stronger & they want more & more, & they have taken control over Democracy... its inmigration time, & so is fascism time : ( ... & there are people deceived & robbed by the banks, whithout home, withoutwork, etc, etc, This has already happen at SouthAmerica & Asia & Africa... & now is getting worst...

    Truth be told, little is actually happening.

    that´s always the message from the Mass Media, thats their propaganda. Is what they want the people to think. Politicians & Mass Media have killed the Spanish Movement "15M" (thats its name here) thousands of times, they said "are only a few", they have criminalized it, they said they were terrorists, they said they were comunists (hahaha), they said they should dress better... they have said that they were just a bunch of young people that were there because they had nothing else to do, etc, etc... LiES LiES & MORE LiES...

    Pete Seeger/ The Ross Perot Guide

    ... & you know what? i don´t matter who they are, i don´t matter where are they going, i don´t give a fuck about how they dress or about their hair... the main thing is that WE ARE BEING GOBERNED BY THIEFS.
    • CommentAuthorcjstevens
    • CommentTimeOct 12th 2011
    Hey WC

    I've been following this since it broke and also started watching The Keiser Report in which Max seems to nail most of the financial corruption behind many of 'Occupiers' grievances.

    I've read different opinions on what the groups are calling for, mostly a removal of the economic 'terrorists' who essentially run the world -a cause I wholeheartedly support.

    Initially the media associated it with a almost socialist hippy movement. I think its is the opposite, not in any way 'anti-capitalist' as certain political puppets have denounced, but a global network of switched-on taxpayers who are desperately trying to apply some pressure to a cabal of untouchable and sickeningly greedy bastards and demanding a fairer and more publicly controlled monetary system.

    I'm considering going to the Stock Exchange on Saturday in a purely journalistic capacity and posting any details on a site.
    • CommentAuthorDC
    • CommentTimeOct 12th 2011
    Victoria Jackson goes to Occupy Wall Street
    I think I never heard about this woman and I only have to say is *facepalm*.
  1.  (10239.4)
    turns out the dumb act that Victoria Jackson was doing on SNL, wasn't an act.
  2.  (10239.5)
    And now, the conservative (and clueless) counter-movement to OWS. Before you ask, this is not a gag.
    • CommentTimeOct 12th 2011
    One of my friends* on facebook posted this today.


    Now, I'm not super into this protest. I get why people are doing it, and I think that's cool and all. But it's not my thing. I'm not about to leave the print studio to protest much of anything, really.

    But this image pisses me off.

    I am currently in my 4th year at school, also completely debt free. I have had scholarships that covered all of my tuition every single year, and this year I even have another scholarship on top of that. My GPA doesn't really exist right now because I just transferred from a 2 year school and that makes things wonky, but it would be around 3.8, I think. I spend nearly all my waking hours working on homework if I can manage it.
    I pay half of what I should for rent living with my sister. I do not own a car of any sort. My parents pay my phone bill, and the phone I am using now was one discarded by my sister when she got a nicer one. In the past year, the only clothes I have bought for myself are 2 dresses and one shirt, and each were under $30. I sometimes eat out because I do not have time to make food, or because that's how I can be around the few friends I have. But more often than not my lunch is a package of fruit snacks or something I can take with me in my backpack so I can stay in the studio without a break.
    I have been trying to find a job and failing. I worked over the summer at the one job I could get and saved all the money from it for school, even though the job was something I hated and I ended up so depressed I wanted to kill myself working it.** I'll probably work there again next summer. I have also tried to sell my art to get money to buy food, and failed at that as well. Today I printed some obviously fake money and I am going to see if I can exchange it for things because I feel so poor.
    I work my ass off for everything I have too. But I still don't have enough. My money from my summer job is almost gone. This is not because I'm lazy or not looking for work. It is because there's just not a whole lot for me to apply to, and the few things there are haven't called me back.
    If I were working 30+ hours in my major with my credits, I would fail everything. I can't do my homework at any workplace, since generally workplaces don't have printing presses sitting around. I could survive on $300 a month the rest of the school year though, easy. Minimum wage, 10 hours a week would be grand. But, as I mentioned, I cannot find a part time job.
    I think that certainly some of the billionaires in this country could have a bit higher taxes so my income tax could have been less, and I could still have money from that summer job I had. Among other things.

    Sometimes, no matter how hard you work, things just don't pan out the way you want them to. Belittling those that haven't had things work out for them doesn't help anyone.

    *Well, not anymore. This was one of several right wing stupid posts in a row and it just wasn't worth how angry it made me.
    **I wish this was an exaggeration.
  3.  (10239.7)
    If I were to post my 99% life story, it would look very similar to this:
    Tracy Jordan's repressed childhood memories
  4.  (10239.8)
    @Artenshiur and @Pupato:

    I'm not cycnical of these protests, changes need to be made and it's good that people are finally exercising their social voices in public again. But turning up without a defined plan only works if you are in a genuine Tahrir Square moment where the underlying feeling is that the government is to blame and the natural progression is to then use your voice to call for their removal.

    This is a completely different beast to Tahrir Square. Whilst there is a vague, underlying similarity insofar as people want change, the problems being debated relate in the main to the financial sector and it's multiple abuses of influence and power. Therefore, a definite plan is required in order to of succeed in bringing about a positive change to society as a whole. Also, the chances of being killed your government are much, much lower than they were in Egypt. The whole media comparison with Tahrir Square does not sit well with me since people in Egypt were actively putting themselves in physical danger to demand a better future, whereas across the US there are people just turning up to watch the protests for fun. To compare the two on any level is rather insulting in my eyes.

    Do you want me to tell you what to demand in your country & how to do it?

    No, I don't. I am well aware of how to do this having attended & helped in the organisation of protests for different causes since my mid-teens, varying from small scale animal welfare protests to the (more self-serving) tuition fees protests as well as various (much larger) anti-war sit-ins/marches. However, I have also seen the difference between a successful protest and a media spectacle and currently OWS is sitting in the second of those two brackets due to the nature of its genesis.

    I completely agree that what happened in Spain was a tragedy. It looked for quite a while like they couldn't fail until the media started to listen to the politicians over the people and that is what ultimately destroyed what could have been a brilliant change for the better for all.

    But OWS is happening in America. Despite all the right-wing nut-bags you wonderful people have over there, you also have access to one of the more liberal news media in the world. If you know your mind you can effect a real change; but on the reverse-side of the coin, if you turn up shouting, "Change now! Somehow!" they will very publicly rip you to shreds whilst secretly hoping that you get your act together and come up with a solution to all the issues they have no idea how to fix. If OWS does come up with the answers it is looking for I have absolutely no doubt that the media will pull a switch and brag about how they were really on the protesters side the whole time. It's just the nature of mainstream media.

    my hope is that they will in fact come to a conclusion, and as a result of this deep discussion it will be a solid, important one.

    And I sincerely hope they do too. My original point, as obscured as it may have been, is that changes could have been implemented a lot faster if people had actually turned up with a plan. If they manage to come up with viable solutions from this open discourse then that is a beautiful thing and I whole-heartedly hope for such an outcome.

    My main issue with the current protest is the way it was organised and the botched approach it had at the beginning. As Pupato pointed out, people are coordinating via means previously unavailable to them. The fact that we now have these methods of instant communication/co-ordination is great, but it also means that people have a chance to discuss what they want to coordinate prior to the event, thus leaving less excuse for an undefined sit-in that will instantly draw criticism from the mainstream media & politicians due to it's lack of focus.

    All that said - this is how it's happened, so hopefully they can now get their act together and say/do something meaningful before the world shifts its gaze.
    • CommentAuthorFlabyo
    • CommentTimeOct 13th 2011 edited
    @Fishelle - you think *thats* right wing? This is why I don't understand US politics at all.

    @Mhengla - the comparisons with the arab spring make we want to strangle someone. How anyone thinks this is comparable to a populace wanting to oust hereditary dictatorships is beyond my understanding. And as for 'before the world shifts its gaze', if the coverage of it here in the UK is anything to go by, noone is actually gazing at it in the first place.
    • CommentAuthorOddcult
    • CommentTimeOct 13th 2011
    It's lovely that these people have got scholarships, but by definition, they're not available for everyone.


    "I don't understand why these protesters don't simply go through our long-established, efficient, reasonable political process to get their goals accomplished!"

    If I had a penny for everyone that's said this when I've been involved with a protest, I'd have about 30p. If I had a penny for every time I'd been called a 'terrorist' for not doing so and protesting (fully within the law, I should add) instead of obeying and being a good little boy and doing as I'm told, I'd have three pee.

    33p isn't enough to get me to change.
    • CommentAuthorSolario
    • CommentTimeOct 13th 2011
    Tell your "friend" that a schoolarship is a hand-out. It's not your money, and you didn't produce anything and you didn't act as a middleman for anyone or anything. You weren't rewarded for work, you did, because other people did the same work, and they weren't rewarded for it.

    And here's some statistics! (I haven't looked into the sources and parameters that deeply, so, as always with statistics, use reason and critical thinking.)
    • CommentTimeOct 13th 2011
    Is anyone going to the Toronto protest on Saturday? I was thinking of stopping by for a few pictures, but it's probably going to be the smallest group of protesters with the largest group of media witnesses, ever.
    • CommentTimeOct 13th 2011 edited
    A phone call or two may need to be made.

    TLDR: The mayor seems to be planning to evict the protestors so the city can clean the park.

    Those in favor of the protest should call (212-639-9675) now and tell him: "Respect the First Amendment. Don't evict 'Occupy Wall Street'."
      CommentAuthorJon Wake
    • CommentTimeOct 13th 2011
    I've been thinking about Adam Smith. He's the father of Capitalism--and I don't mean market economies. Market economies have existed, truly existed since the late Middle Ages. They have their excesses, but on the whole work pretty well for most goods. That's not capitalism. Capitalism is when the means of production are owned privately, and profits are reinvested into capital markets. If you're a private business owner who buys all her material, builds something with it, sells that thing and then re-invests the profits into more goods, congratulations, you're not a capitalist.

    Now if you hire someone and they work for you while you make the profit, you're a capitalist. Adam Smith felt that if people act with rational self interest and everyone pursues their own ends, this system would be stable, relatively predictable and create maximum liberty for everyone involved. With the growing industrialization of the world and the shrinking of the rural classes, his ideas made sense of a changing world and were essentially optimistic.

    Marx thought otherwise. He took the same assumptions Smith (and Ricardo) had and arrived at another conclusion: because money is not like any other commodity and can be gathered essentially infinitely, money would accumulate in the Capitalist classes, subvert democracies, lead to a perpetual cycle of catastrophic collapse and recovery, and prevent the laboring classes from achieving independence. Marx said that monopolies are not an aberration, but the inevitable conclusion to the Capitalist system, that a company will pay its workers as little as possible and work them as hard as possible or else be out-competed by the rival that will.

    He even pointed out that it will pervert morality, as that every person becomes viewed as a commodity, and judged depending on their productivity, that human cooperation and collusion would become mocked and demonized.

    Capitalism is the system we're stuck with, but it's not sustainable, not in the long run.

    So here I am looking at the Occupy protests, looking at things like bittorrent and bitcoins, reading Global Guerrillas and thinking that something is changing on a fundamental level. There are social forces at work that are going to make the 20th century look like the a leisurely stroll through the park.
    • CommentAuthorBankara
    • CommentTimeOct 13th 2011
    I just came back from my second day of being down at Zucotti Park and I had an odd thought on the subway back about how this entire thing is maybe fallout from the Obama campaign. Shepard Fairy, an self-admitted propagandist, made campaign images of Obama with impossibly high-value words like 'Hope' and 'Change' and 'Progress'. We young folk in America are pretty goddam cynical but we reacted to it, thinking that maybe, just maybe, THIS time it would be different. and then it wasn't. We saw a continuation and indeed an expansion of all of the policies that Bush instituted. We saw nothing change. We saw business as usual. That is not what we were promised. This may be idealism turning to righteous indignation in the face of one final and unforgivable deception. This system is broken. We have admitted its shortcomings in the same way that we are accustomed to forgiving the predictable shortcomings of a familiar partner. Then one day they do something unforgivable that lays bare the fact that they never really cared about us at all. Obama, for all the good will that has been given him, has not delivered even one of the progressive goals that he campaigned on. I feel cheated. I always knew that he was a politician, and I tried to protect myself from his charms but I finally feel as though I am done with him. Now, all I feel is bad for the guy. He got handed a flaming bag of dogshit by GWB. He has done a tolerable job of ensuring that the country has not gone down in flames, and believe me when I say this, I would like to give the man as much credit as i can but I am finding it difficult to credit him with much of anything. Most politicians make concrete promises and then don't deliver on them. No new taxes. Peace and prosperity. whatever. Obama made campaign promises that were intangible concepts ( Justice! Flying shoes for all! Magical uncorns!) and now, when after nearly four years they fail to materialize it becomes apparent that they never will. somehow, we are now expected to vote for the guy AGAIN under exactly same pretense and I have to admit that I feel the load of horseshit in my bloodstream reaches toxic and potentially fatal levels.
    It is bloody pouring rain and the occupiers are being forced to leave the park under a shaky truce with City Hall. Tomorrow will define how this movement either evolves or dies.
    • CommentTimeOct 13th 2011
    I might follow a friend there, but I will not be protesting.
    • CommentTimeOct 14th 2011 edited
    @John Wake, Thanks... That´s the picture! you´re totaly right. Marx was a visionary. Then you put Capitalism along with Globalization together & we have people at one corner of the planet working as slaves for other people on the other can brush their thooth with the water running & have better batteries for their laptops (let pass through those who make more than 15000 euros per month). As the water was still running for us we were okey with the situation, but when the tap got closed we´ve started to revolve. Its human nature & better later than never. Its a wicked system that can´t exist without limits & here´s one of the main problems now. Corporations have taken control over gobernments turning democracy into a farse because political parties can´t reach the people without money wich is provided by unscrupulous corporations. At the end, the gobernments "democratically elected" have become just puppets of the monsters...
    & the worst is that we are monsters too because we knew who the monsters were & what they were doing.

    @Bankara, it´s astonishing how the responsibles continue to sell themselves as the saviors of the desaster! & i´m even more amazed of the people who belive it & vote for them again : (


    what happened in Spain was a tragedy. It looked for quite a while like they couldn't fail until the media started to listen to the politicians over the people and that is what ultimately destroyed what could have been a brilliant change for the better for all.

    You are very mistaken again, the Main Medias have never listen to the people, they´ve acted as if they did but it was an strategy (there were elections coming & they knew that people in general were pissed off with everything) & that´s because the media are sustained with the Corporations money, those for wich the politicians work for. The movement been destroyed? (that´s another huge lie) NOTHING HAVE BEEN DESTROYED... on the contrary, the Movement has been divided itself into groups working from the neighborhoods, organizing a civil society net, & spreading this net over all the country (in the summertime groups of "outraged" have been visiting little villages, talking to the people & giving them some political education, traveling by foot & camping at the main squares of cities & villages.

    is that changes could have been implemented a lot faster if people had actually turned up with a plan.

    I´m telling you again there´s a plan & this fight is going to be a long one. Why it has to be done in a month? Not at all, this is going to take years, even decades, that´s for sure & this concept has to be clear in our minds if we want to achive even a 10% of the original demands. Why everything has to be right here, right now? That´s another lie & a very dangerous trap for discourage our spirits.

    if you turn up shouting, "Change now! Somehow!" they will very publicly rip you to shreds whilst secretly hoping that you get your act together and come up with a solution to all the issues they have no idea how to fix

    when are you going to understand that they are going to publicly rip our shreds no matter what we say or do... & we have no delusions of grandeur, ¡¿came up with a solution to all the issues?! i don´t belive in God but, Jennifer López ass... hmmm! it will make my sadness go away (-it would be an imposible task too...
    make my sadness go away i mean- : ) ... & they know how to fix it, yes they do... & how to broke it for selling it cheaper.

    PS. Forgot to say that in Spain this Protest Group includes a lot of diferent civil & political asociations. In spite of the apolitical attitude sustained by some (wich i see totaly quimerical unless you have arms & the will to start & armed revolution), there´s a general conviction that political representation is needed through the democratic stablished courses (the electoral law wich benefits the two main political powers has to be changed: that´s the first demand of the spanish movement "MAY, THE FIFTH" (15M). For me the only hope is the 3erd option, the ancient Comunist Party united whith other little options, now called UNITED LEFT... UNITED LEFT has been triying to introduce a much more humanistic aproach to this agresive & deshumanized capitalist system long ago before this protests start.
    • CommentAuthorFlabyo
    • CommentTimeOct 14th 2011
    There's actually a few bits about this on the BBC news site today, first I can recall of them covering it at all.

    Even then it seems only cause they were expecting the 'clean up' in NYC to kick off into something.
  5.  (10239.19)
    You know the freeloading tax-evading 47% that the GOP and other conservative sock-puppets are railing against? Well, here's who they are. The GOP has to be given credit for making demonizing old people, the working poor, and students socially acceptable
    • CommentTimeOct 14th 2011
    Occupy Wall Street Eviction called off

    Postponed, actually, but better than nothing.

This discussion has been inactive for longer than 5 days, and doesn't want to be resurrected.