Whitechapel - The Frank Miller thing

Whitechapel - The Frank Miller thing Tue, 21 May 2013 18:59:30 -0700 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.1.4 & Feed Publisher The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315663#Comment_315663 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315663#Comment_315663 Tue, 15 Nov 2011 17:47:03 -0800 James Cunningham
http://frankmillerink.com/2011/11/anarchy

I'm sure everyone's seen that by now.

Bleeding Cool has been posting follow up commentary. There's an article on Breitbart, Youtube video responses, various articles (my favorite being the one StefanJ linked in the Occupy Wall Street thread, by David Brin) and a whole lot of other chatter.

9-day wonder, sure, but I think the reason this one is sticking with me is because Frank Miller didn't used to be crazy. I'm not saying "he's nuts because he disagrees with me", but rather that his Anarchy post isn't the work of a sane mind. The idea that you can't protest Thing A because Thing B exists doesn't make sense on any level, at all.

I think one of the things that bothers me most about the follow-up articles are how many attempt to be even-handed about the original post, as if its incredible list of factual errors were a matter of opinion. "Somebody said this, how do you feel about it?" kind of thing, trying so hard to give a lunatic rant the weight of news simply due to the fact it was written by a semi-famous person.

Bah! The whole thing is more than a little depressing. We're never getting a new Sin City, are we? That writer/artist is gone. ]]> The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315666#Comment_315666 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315666#Comment_315666 Tue, 15 Nov 2011 18:10:28 -0800 DavidLejeune not have seen that this was roiling right under the surface. ]]> The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315674#Comment_315674 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315674#Comment_315674 Tue, 15 Nov 2011 19:10:18 -0800 Argos

What shocked me was the vitriol against him, the big bucket of shit poured over the head by even fellow comic-book creators for saying what was on his mind.

Personally, I was upset over the way Frank Miller expressed his views, not the views themselves. And if Frank Miller has the right to express his views by pouring a bug bucket of shit over our heads, why can't we do the same to him? Honestly, I'm upset that Mark Millar is upset at people for having bitten back at Frank Miller. Freedom of speech works both ways. ]]> The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315679#Comment_315679 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315679#Comment_315679 Tue, 15 Nov 2011 19:39:16 -0800 audientvoid
I always figured Frank had issues. You can't read his earlier stuff without picking up on his definition of what constitutes a manly-man and who doesn't make the cut (just about everyone), so this wasn't a huge surprise. I glanced through a copy of "Holy Terror" when it first arrived at the bookstore and just thought "aww Christ, c'mon now..." and put it back. Not surprised, just immensely disappointed. Much like reading through "Ender's Game" and enjoying it, only to hear an interview with Orson Scott Card a few years later and find out he's an awful horrid raving homophobe. ]]> The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315683#Comment_315683 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315683#Comment_315683 Tue, 15 Nov 2011 20:18:18 -0800 city creed
It's hard to formulate any kind of a sensible response to the actual text, which was surely the intent. As professional self-sabotage spectaculars go, this one woooooould seem to be something of a belter though.

It is worrying (but also sorta hilarious) to see anyone degenerate to the point of hamfistedly flaming their own blog with such a thorough absence of finesse. I'm less worried by his politics than by his failure to communicate in a way that would significantly differentiate him from a meth-addled macho fuckup with a keyboard. Mainly I wonder whether he is now like "what? what the fuck did I say?" or more like "HAH I SURE SHOWED EM ALL GOOD". I have my suspicions.

Here's to ya Frank, feel better. ]]> The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315692#Comment_315692 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315692#Comment_315692 Tue, 15 Nov 2011 21:27:13 -0800 andycon

I think the video was entertaining but still the same type of hollow reactionary response(calling him retarded/a pussy) that Miller's was, just this time it was 'on our side'. BUT the argument he made about Miller and others saying the protesters/unemployed/me that we need to just go get a job and stop bitching like they are hanging from trees is akin to telling starving Africans to just eat a god damn hamburger was spot on.

That is what turned me off of Miller, not that he is against the protests/is a conservative. He has every right to be, I have no problem liking artists that I don't agree with philosophically (I LOVE Dave Sim's Cerebus/Glamourpuss but don't really agree with his gender politics) my problem is his hateful, argumentative and just flat out ignorant choices in expressing his opinions.

This idea that there are millions of easy to find/entry level/come and get 'em jobs out there is just foolish. Having spent the better part of the past six months looking for work despite having a degree, a pretty good resume/work experience for a fresh out of college kid I am still coming up short. I'm not even cherry picking my choices, I just got a response in reference to an entry level janitor position telling me I wasn't qualified. I actually WANT to work and not sit around on the computer looking at 4 different employment sites, working with 2 different temp agencies, I hate the idea that I am living on unemployment, thats not how I was raised. But it is what it is because everyone else I know isn't having much luck either.

His plea that the real enemy isn't corporate greed but Muslim terrorists that are camped out in our toilets just WAITING to kill us just reeks of tin foil hat craziness it's hard to believe. For a man who was perfectly capable of serving his country but chose not to to bitch at others for not doing so is maddening. Never mind the fact that we live in a country that only partially cares about our troops while they are serving and could care less about them when they get back home. Seriously, we have to pass a bill to bribe companies with tax credits to hire veterans? The same country where after WWII is was a sense of pride to hire someone based on the sole quality that they served in the war.

ANYWAYS, that was too much thought/effort/emotion to throw at Frank WHORES!!!!! Miller. ]]> The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315694#Comment_315694 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315694#Comment_315694 Tue, 15 Nov 2011 22:12:38 -0800 James Cunningham What shocked me was the vitriol against him, the big bucket of shit poured over the head by even fellow comic-book creators for saying what was on his mind.
I think the reason people are pouring a "big bucket of shit" over Miller's head isn't because he spoke his mind, it's because Miller didn't have a thought worth speaking. There was no attempt at research outside of "I don't like you so I'll call you names". Zero understanding of what the OWS protests are about and who's protesting. Miller's opinion on OWS is as valid as my opinion on macrame. ]]> The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315696#Comment_315696 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315696#Comment_315696 Tue, 15 Nov 2011 22:32:34 -0800 RenThing The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315713#Comment_315713 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315713#Comment_315713 Wed, 16 Nov 2011 03:02:31 -0800 manglr The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315719#Comment_315719 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315719#Comment_315719 Wed, 16 Nov 2011 04:43:22 -0800 Paul Duffield "I also hate a bandwagon and would urge my fellow left-wing readers to boycott Miller no less than HP Lovecraft, Steve Ditko, David Mamet or any other writer who might not share my personal philosophy, but who’s work I’m happy to have on my shelves.".
I agree with the sentiment, but also think that a writer's political and personal opinions are extremely important. Entertainment, stories, narratives, we all communicate information, values, morals and ideas through them. Our work doesn't exist in splendid isolation from our selves, and shouldn't be treated as if it does! Story telling decisions (conscious or unconscious) like the number and roles of female characters, or the political alignments of our main characters, or the methods with which conflict is resolved in our stories form a tapestry of social values that our work communicates.

Like Millar, I don't agree with Boycotting Miller's work, but I don't see anything wrong with making a fuss about his ideals, especially when he's a public figure who's work reaches millions of people in various different forms. The "us vs them" sabre rattling that Miller indulges in personally and fictionally is about as uncaring, unthinking and uncritical as any "political" opinion can get, no matter what wing you hang out in. ]]> The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315730#Comment_315730 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315730#Comment_315730 Wed, 16 Nov 2011 06:45:12 -0800 NeilFord ...a writer's political and personal opinions are extremely important. Entertainment, stories, narratives, we all communicate information, values, morals and ideas through them. Our work doesn't exist in splendid isolation from our selves, and shouldn't be treated as if it does!
[Emphasis mine.]

I don't think the writer's political and personal opinions are nearly as important as they might seem I'm afraid. The 'work' can really only speak for itself, in the context in which it is being consumed/observed, and by whom. This makes the readers culture, historical instance, politics & values and ultimately, their reation to the work, the really interesting thing.

If FM shouts at the TV when protestors appear on the news, well he may be a slighly nuttier bag of water than you or I, but 'The Dark Knight Returns' remains a wonderful work, then and now. ]]> The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315731#Comment_315731 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315731#Comment_315731 Wed, 16 Nov 2011 06:47:59 -0800 Richard Pace

]]> The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315733#Comment_315733 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315733#Comment_315733 Wed, 16 Nov 2011 07:04:01 -0800 Jason A. Quest ar is objecting to). That's just typical crap.

The responses that I find upsetting are the people (including some pros), apparently overjoyed at finding an outspoken ally for their minority veiwpoint, saying "attaboy, Frank" simply because he's saying things that are vaguely aligned with their political views, even though it's simply incoherent and hateful. Basically they're exploiting a mentally unstable person to support their agenda. I'd like to think that if some famous cartoonist went off the deep end and started ranting about the Tea Party were all just a bunch of child molesters who need to join the Peace Corps and learn about what life in sub-Saharan Africa is like... I'd refrain from cheering "you tell 'em!", denounce the slander, and hope for that person to get help. ]]> The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315734#Comment_315734 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315734#Comment_315734 Wed, 16 Nov 2011 07:05:53 -0800 Solario

Honestly, Millar's comment offends me far more than Miller's. Not because what he says is egariously stupid (because it is), but because he does it by using nothing but logical fallacies. Ad hominems, black-white dilemma, slippery slope, strawmen etc. It's impressive. (As Millar's person is a part of his argument, ie. his personal anecdote, I feel it's appropriate to take that into consideration of the argument.)

"I wasn’t shocked by his comments because they’re no different from a lot of commentators I’ve seen discussing the subject. What shocked me was the vitriol against him, the big bucket of shit poured over the head by even fellow comic-book creators for saying what was on his mind."

First off all, just because some others speak that way doesn't make it morally or socially acceptable to do so. Secondly, nobody said he wasn't allowed to say it. People are just responding to it. That's free speech as well, as Millar rightfully points out in the next sentence. I just really wish we could start to care more about having an informed opinion than just the base value of having an opinion.

"Obviously, it’s within their rights to exercise the First Amendment as much as it was within Frank’s to make the original point. But there’s something so distasteful about that cyber-mob mentality that revolts me. It’s not just that I like the guy, that his body of work is among the best the industry has ever seen. It’s the GLEE I’m seeing from some people and, worse, the calls I’ve seen to boycott his work because his perspective on a point differs from yours and mine."

Glee? Yes, I'm certain that people who love Miller's work are just ecstatic that he's gone even farther off the deep end. What people are responding with is horror and anger over Miller doing outlandish and socially unacceptable acts such as calling poor unemployed people rapists and thieves. Also note how part of Millar's argument is that he likes his work, ergo Miller shouldn't be criticized.

And everyone is in their right to boycott or not buy a product or a product from a creator they don't like. That's usually how it works.

"I’m reminded of the time, in the heated period leading up to the Gulf War, when over a thousand people signed a cyber-petition to have me fired from Marvel because I disagreed with the war in Iraq as a response to 9/11. Bill Jemas, quite bravely, bounced this back saying that one of the things he liked about America is that you can say what you like without fear that you’re going to lose your job. Liberalism doesn’t mean throwing guys in jail who DISAGREE with your liberalism. It means accepting that society is richer when everybody has a voice. Starting economic sanctions against a writer until they shut up and agree with you is horrific."

Nobody wants Miller fired and nobody wants him in jail. What a terrible straw-man fallacy. And you can't say what you like in America without fear of losing your job. Priests can't admit to being atheists, bosses can't sexually harass their employees and stupid people can't be scientists. If you're a private entrepreneur then you need to watch what you say or at least try to espouse a well-informed opinion on it, because there can be backlash from your consumers. That's a part of how capitalism and America works, as well as free speech.

Society would be a lot richer still, if everyone had a well-formed opinion and voice. Everyone just having a voice isn't enough.

"I dunno. I just hate a mob. I think it demeans us. I also hate a bandwagon and would urge my fellow left-wing readers to boycott Miller no less than HP Lovecraft, Steve Ditko, David Mamet or any other writer who might not share my personal philosophy, but who’s work I’m happy to have on my shelves."

Apparently, he does know, since he decided to share his opinion on it. First of all, there's nothing inherently wrong with being in the majority. Secondly, this isn't mob mentality; people aren't out with pitchforks and fire - at worst we're talking about an organized boycott. These are rational human beings pointing out that what Miller says is not only tremendously stupid, but also extremely hateful. That might to some degree consistute a philosophy, but not an especially smart or desirable one.

Nobody boycotts H.P. Lovecraft because he's dead (who would they be trying to harm?), but if he was alive, he'd still get called out on his racism and stupidity, much like Ditko is called out on his empathy-devoided objectionism and Mamet is called out on his ignorant conservatism. We don't have to boycott them, but we can't ignore it. It's something we have to deal with every time we read their work and if it at some point the bad outweighs the good, then we start to consider whether or not we want to support these people and works financially. ]]> The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315737#Comment_315737 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315737#Comment_315737 Wed, 16 Nov 2011 07:33:20 -0800 Oddcult
Sometimes being half crazy is just a point on a sliding scale though and their work turns shite as they get more crazy. Sometimes that goes the other way round and the more batshit they get, the better their work. We can all name other writers and artists this goes each way for, I'm sure.

And whilst Dark Knight Strikes Back and All Star Batman and Robin are funny as fuck for the fanboy rage they produce, but not essential works, and Sin City I can take or leave, you can prise Dark Knight Returns from my cold, dead, semen encrusted hands if you want me to boycott it. And on the offchance he may produce something as wonderful again, I'll give anything he writes a look. I may not *pay* for it, but I'll read it. ]]> The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315738#Comment_315738 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315738#Comment_315738 Wed, 16 Nov 2011 07:35:01 -0800 James Cunningham
Boycotting Miller's work would be silly. I didn't buy Holy Terror because it didn't say anything I cared about, and leafing through it, it looked pretty awful as well. All-Star Batman & Robin, on the other hand, I was buying because it was such an entertaining train-wreck. If it ever ends I'll probably still finish buying it. I'm not really sure how people would stop reading something so incredibly (but entertainingly) awful just because the writer is nuts. The lack of quality in the writing should have driven them away already.

Can't argue the view on Millar's response, though. If he's got a problem with the "I never liked Miller's work and now, HA-HA, he's crazy!" then I'm right there with him, but failing to draw a line between an unpopular view and an outright ignorant one is another thing entirely.

Richard Pace- awesome comic! :D ]]> The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315744#Comment_315744 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315744#Comment_315744 Wed, 16 Nov 2011 08:23:49 -0800 William Joseph Dunn The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315749#Comment_315749 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315749#Comment_315749 Wed, 16 Nov 2011 09:13:40 -0800 Paul Duffield I admit to ignorance on behalf of DNR, since it's Miller's only major work that I haven't read! I agree that it depends on the specific work and the audience in question as to how much of the writer bleeds through, but I think my point about the inevitable connection between the two still stands! Since I've somehow managed to avoid reading DNR until now, I might give it a go. ]]> The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315750#Comment_315750 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315750#Comment_315750 Wed, 16 Nov 2011 09:33:25 -0800 James Cunningham The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315751#Comment_315751 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315751#Comment_315751 Wed, 16 Nov 2011 09:39:03 -0800 William Joseph Dunn The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315754#Comment_315754 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315754#Comment_315754 Wed, 16 Nov 2011 09:52:41 -0800 oldhat
As for the boycotts and anger towards Miller, I think it's totally justifiable for many people. As Argos says, free speech DOES go both ways.

Me, I stopped reading him about ten years ago when, after reading his classics like Dark Knight Returns and Sin City and a few others, I realized that his art style hadn't changed at all in the time since his classics and his writing just got more testosterone-filled to the point where it seemed like he was compensating for something. To me one of the thrills of comics is seeing an artist's style change throughout their career. I didn't feel like I was getting that with Miller and the writing didn't make me feel like I should stay, so I left it at that. ]]> The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315756#Comment_315756 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315756#Comment_315756 Wed, 16 Nov 2011 10:08:11 -0800 Nygaard The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315759#Comment_315759 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315759#Comment_315759 Wed, 16 Nov 2011 10:46:02 -0800 oldhat
And on the note of that following I should say that I'm most disappointed in the comments on that blog. Both sides are being jerks, but what gets me is when someone politely responds with something along the lines of "Hey Frank, I'm afraid I have to disagree with you" there are ten replies to that comment that start off with "Fuck you, you bleeding heart liberal". ]]> The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315767#Comment_315767 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315767#Comment_315767 Wed, 16 Nov 2011 12:08:26 -0800 James Cunningham The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315775#Comment_315775 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315775#Comment_315775 Wed, 16 Nov 2011 13:20:43 -0800 Solario
Free speech is far too overvalued compared to informed opinion. I'm not saying it's unimportant or that we shouldn't respect it, but it's instrumentalistic at best; it has no inherent value. Free speech only means something, if you do something worthwhile with it. The reason it's protected is because whatever is worthwhile is open to discussion and mostly everyone can say something worthwhile at times, no matter their intelligence, empathy or whatever. However, I don't think any rationally-minded individual would consider, for example, what a lunatic like Charles Manson says as having an equal amount of value as what someone like, I don't know, Stephen Fry. Doesn't mean they can't both say something intelligent and stupid, but we can usually tell when it's one or the other.

@James Cunningham, I disagree with your interpretation of the ending of DKR. It's not about rehabilitating criminals - they're still criminals, they just commit the crimes that Batman tells them to. If he went away, they would find another strong and charismatic leader, who would want to command them. They're depicted as being amoral and just do whatever their alpha male tells them to. They don't learn anything, they don't change, and they aren't rehabilitated. It's the ending of A Clockwork Orange on a large scale.

In regards to it being even-handed criticism, I think DKR is a lot more nuanced than his later work, but it's still predominately a conservative work, in my opinion. He shots widder than just the right, certainly, but Reagan is at worst depicted as being a little clueless and the primary non-supervillain antagonists are psychiatrists, diplomatic government officials and young people (this last group could arguably not count, seeing as Carrie is depicted in a positive light). It's not quite as black and white, as it becomes later on, but it's still not pretty. At least when people like Grant Morrison writes Batman, he tries to do something about the uglier, fascist elements of Batman.

All of this doesn't stop me from enjoying it, as a visceral story, but the politics in and behind it are dubious at best. ]]> The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315796#Comment_315796 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315796#Comment_315796 Wed, 16 Nov 2011 16:32:21 -0800 Verissimus
Millergate is what happens when people you admire for their creative output turn out to be a disappointment. Lots of people have opinions you may find objectionable, but when someone whose work you've enjoyed turns out to be an ass, that can be a bit of a shock. ]]> The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315813#Comment_315813 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315813#Comment_315813 Wed, 16 Nov 2011 18:03:31 -0800 ebullientsoul The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315844#Comment_315844 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315844#Comment_315844 Thu, 17 Nov 2011 03:35:54 -0800 Vornaskotti
Heh, that comic is really making the rounds online, I actually linked it into Around the Net thread without realizing it was here (didn't even notice this whole thread).

And I don't know... I generally don't want to know the artist behind his or her work, since far too often it turns out that's he's a total knob. I just can't separate artist from his work, and I can't really support problem behavior by paying for it. From this debacle on, Frank Miller is in the same category for me as Orson Scott Card, whom I do actively boycott.

He has the right to say the revolting stuff that he does, and I have a right to say that I think he's waste of space and not support his lifestyle and agenda with my money. This is how free speech works... ]]> The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315845#Comment_315845 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315845#Comment_315845 Thu, 17 Nov 2011 04:21:52 -0800 tedcroland Shadow Complex connection, and it looks like Card licensed the series from Chair, meaning that Chair owns the IP and therefore is the ultimate end of profits. Card would not have seen profits from the game due to him being a very peripheral member of the creative process. The game itself was surprisingly poorly written by Peter David, and filled with absurd conspiracy theory cliches, worse even than Assassin's Creed. The gameplay was awesome and I would buy a sequel if it were offered.

I guess one could draw a tangential point about creative boycott due to a writers political or ethical beliefs. While I sympathize with Vorn's evident inability to turn off both empathy and disgust while reading a writers work, it should also be remembered that one does not often wholly agree or disagree with another person's beliefs, and deciding which belief is the one that kills that creator for you seems arbitrary.

Boycotting Miller is easy, too, because he hasn't produced anything of value since The Hard Goodbye. ]]> The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315849#Comment_315849 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315849#Comment_315849 Thu, 17 Nov 2011 04:54:39 -0800 Paul Duffield "He has the right to say the revolting stuff that he does, and I have a right to say that I think he's waste of space and not support his lifestyle and agenda with my money"

Actually, the more I think about what boycotting someone really consists of, the less I object to it. Like Vornaskotti, I've always believed in spending conscientiously (I think of it as "voting with my money"), but perhaps hadn't considered that extending to creative individuals as well as companies and organisations.

In Frank Miller's case, we know full well that he's using his platform as a well known creator to use comics as vehicles for propaganda, communicating the idea of combating terrorism with war. That's definitely not something I want to support financially - directly by buying Holy Terror, or indirectly by giving him revenue from his other comics.

Like Solario, I think that the value of free-speech is that it should provide an open environment in which informed discussion of all kinds can evolve, and good ideas can be separated from bad ones by people who care to listen and think carefully to all sides. Free speech without informed choice as an end result is culturally impotent, just as informed choice without free-speech to fuel it would be! ]]> The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315852#Comment_315852 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315852#Comment_315852 Thu, 17 Nov 2011 05:07:29 -0800 Vornaskotti
True, technically, but there's always the issue of using Card as a marketing vehicle for a game, which is of course extra value for him in the form of publicity. Nowadays, in digital markets, that's hard currency. I'm also very underwhelmed about the game studio's decision to do that. They where complaining, that there's people of many nationalities and ideologies making games. Yes, of course there are, but would they have chosen a vocal Klansman or a known pedophile to be the "marketing name" for their game? How's a raging homophobe different from that, exactly?

Boycotting is not only about money, it's also about public awareness and image, which is hard currency. It is also a sliding scale and a very personal one at that. While Card blazed through it with the accelerator down, Miller managed to crawl over with his latest rant, after trying really hard for some time. You are also right, boycotting him is pathetically easy, since after Sin Cities he hasn't done anything I would've even wanted to read.

There is of course the "why do something inefficient that doesn't matter a much" point, which is fallacy in my opinion. If you can do only a little, it's not any kind of an excuse to do nothing. ]]> The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315873#Comment_315873 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315873#Comment_315873 Thu, 17 Nov 2011 11:20:50 -0800 RenThing The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315880#Comment_315880 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315880#Comment_315880 Thu, 17 Nov 2011 12:27:06 -0800 Vornaskotti
H. P. Lovecraft was a good old-time racist and as I've heard it, he had a special dislike for the Finnish immigrants of New Providence area. Why won't I boycott him then, like Millar suggests. Well, if the money I give to H. P. Lovecraft has some bearing in today's politics, I think we have bigger problems than xenophobia, with the laws of causality breaking the bounds of perceivable logic, and all that.

In a nutshell: the money and positive feedback I give to people like Miller or Card may and will go, right now, into supporting causes which I find repugnant and... well, fucking evil. Hence: no money or goodwill for you, gentlemen. ]]> The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315885#Comment_315885 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315885#Comment_315885 Thu, 17 Nov 2011 13:37:48 -0800 andycon The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315899#Comment_315899 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315899#Comment_315899 Thu, 17 Nov 2011 16:49:20 -0800 Richard Pace
A deep reading of their extended biographies makes a reader thing both their racism and bigotry were softening as they matured. IIRC, Lovecraft's wife was Jewish.

I would hope Miller gets the help he needs to arrest his downward spiral, but I suspect he's more likely to find a new audience much in the same way Dennis Miller did.

I used to really admire Frank, back when he gave the impression he was standing up to Marvel and DC. In hindsight I suspect it was just posturing on his part.

I do feel for Bob Schreck, who now has Miller and HOLY TERROR dangling around his neck in his position as EIC at Legendary. Bob's too nice a guy to have this sort of bad luck and I think he's too loyal to probably do the proper sort of damage control.

~R ]]> The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315962#Comment_315962 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=315962#Comment_315962 Fri, 18 Nov 2011 08:16:57 -0800 mister hex
Frank Miller HAS been a satirist throughout his career. He's also gotten in trouble for that over the years. (Notably, the Village Voice asking "Is Batman A Fascist?" after DKR and the story "Robohomophobe" in A.A.R.G.H! {Artists Against Rampant Government Homohobia, a benefit book for gay rights in Englandland back in the fooking Eighties})

So Frank Miller doesn't like suicide bombers. Who does? He doesn't like hippies, either. That's his opinion. At least he HAS an opinion and it's his GODDAMN God-given right to do so. If, in fact, you DO NOT AGREE with Mr. Miller's opinion, (any relation to Dennis, btw?) feel free to not support him in his (admittedly increasingly misguided) creative endeavours. (Also, people have been complaining about a decline in his work SINCE HE LEFT DAREDEVIL. THE FIRST TIME. So there's that.)

Personally, I'll never forgive him for directing THE SPIRIT, the movie that made Jonah Hex "acceptable". AND DON'T EVEN GET ME STARTED ON JONAH HEX.

MY point is, if indeed I have one, is that Frank Miller's opinions on current events will never overcome the shame of directing THE SPIRIT. I don't think he needs "help" (what might that "help" entail, anyway? "Frank Miller In Sensitivity Training" is a helluva comic idear.) and I don't think he needs or even wants "support". If he wants to be left alone, he's well on his way, though.

@asanaside - I always thought that All-Star Batman was the Dark Knight Batman when he was a "boy" - the over-the-top portrayals of everyone from Batman on down, the terse, somewhat stupid dialogue, the emphasis on violence ... it's just that Jim Lee made it look like an Archie comic with cross-hatching and Miller apparently wasn't edited as much. ]]> The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=316018#Comment_316018 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=316018#Comment_316018 Fri, 18 Nov 2011 16:41:22 -0800 Verissimus The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=316025#Comment_316025 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=316025#Comment_316025 Fri, 18 Nov 2011 18:35:57 -0800 Val A Lindsay II need the counterpoint of people like this to weigh and balance what society wants. Frank Miller's ideology is clear in his little rant. It's a buffer. Most people still Mein Kampf not because they want to be like Hitler or understand them but because they want to absorb the point of view and realize why it was so askew.

Please, also consider this other phenomenon in the form of an image...

Alan Moore has never been shy about expressing his opinions or observations, but he has gone out of his way to avoid hollywood glamourization. I do have to wonder about what goes through his mind when a simple idea he and others had when they wrote 'V' has literally been taken to the streets. Man, I love life! ]]> The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=316036#Comment_316036 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=316036#Comment_316036 Fri, 18 Nov 2011 22:59:20 -0800 flecky
Maybe it's my age and that comics mean the world to me.If you where a kid in the seventies and eighties there was not the amount of quality reading there is available now for us to rip apart,compare to other works,judge,say "I think this is crap and so it must be"

Millers early work came along when there was a lot of stagnant dross on the comic scene.If you where there then you will know what i mean.He infused a bit of excitement into a media that was pretty bloody awful.

Fooksake,can anybody remember how he waged a one man defence of Jack Kirby?I admired him like hell for that.

Like an arsehole everyone has a opinion and sometimes they both stink.

Yeah,The Spirit was probably one of the worst films i endured.Yet reading Born Again,The Dark Knight,Year One,Ronin, etc where highs in my comic reading history.

I've calmed down a bit so will look at the bigger picture.I will get back to this when i've absorbed the information etc.

And i will do my best to keep my judgemental oversized stupid childish ego at bay. ]]> The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=316054#Comment_316054 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=316054#Comment_316054 Sat, 19 Nov 2011 02:13:49 -0800 James Cunningham
Try not to let it disappoint you too much when you realize the person who did those things is very likely in the past. I've called the rant "crazy" a couple of times and have yet to see any reason to view it as the product of a mind that has a grip on much of anything. I'm not trying to be insulting, it's just that the article starts off disconnected from reality and then goes completely off the rails. ]]> The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=316105#Comment_316105 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=316105#Comment_316105 Sat, 19 Nov 2011 14:41:55 -0800 HOT_RIGHTEOUS_DEATH
IMO I'm not a fan of Occupy Wall Street. I'm a left-leaning moderate for the most part, but this just looks like a pointless, unfocused gesture to me. This isn't going to make "The 1%" do a damned thing. If anything, it'll just further their resolve.

That being said, I don't make Miller any excuses. It was a very uninformed, incoherent rant, and he should rightfully be criticized from voicing such an ignorant complaint, even though he certainly has the right to voice it.

I don't do boycotts really...at least not authors/artists/entertainers. Products perhaps, yes. Why should I have to deny myself good entertainment because I think the author might be a big fat jerk, or racist redneck? Seems to me most boycotts do the exact opposite of what you want them to and attract attention to whatever it is you're boycotting. If you actively boycott something or someone, I mean no offense, I just don't partake, that's all. ]]> The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=316169#Comment_316169 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=316169#Comment_316169 Sun, 20 Nov 2011 11:11:26 -0800 flecky The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=316183#Comment_316183 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=316183#Comment_316183 Sun, 20 Nov 2011 13:29:01 -0800 Andre Navarro
As for Miller, it's a pathetic, uninformed rant. I don't have much to add beyond that. Mark Millar's response misses the point -- Miller's tone invited the vitriol against himself. Had he posted a calm, collected article defending his points, I'd condemn shouty, insulting reactions -- but he calls the Occupiers rapists, for fuck's sake. As for whether someone's work should be boycotted because they are detestable depends on each case, and in Miller's case, I already don't give a shit about his work anymore. His writing has become apparently unintentional self-parody, and his art, well...

This was Miller then:

This is Miller now:

He hardly needed to be an asshole to convince me to stop following his work. ]]> The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=316198#Comment_316198 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=316198#Comment_316198 Sun, 20 Nov 2011 15:49:41 -0800 Sobreiro The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=316204#Comment_316204 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=316204#Comment_316204 Sun, 20 Nov 2011 16:37:18 -0800 flecky
Should we boycott Steve Ditko for putting out Mr A?

While we are at it let's boycott the internet for all it's twisted fooked up shite.

I'm going to shut the fook up as you guys are better with words than me. ]]> The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=316211#Comment_316211 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=316211#Comment_316211 Sun, 20 Nov 2011 17:32:35 -0800 Jon Wake The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=316215#Comment_316215 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=316215#Comment_316215 Sun, 20 Nov 2011 18:31:47 -0800 James Cunningham The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=316231#Comment_316231 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=316231#Comment_316231 Sun, 20 Nov 2011 20:31:05 -0800 William Joseph Dunn Should we boycott Steve Ditko for putting out Mr A?

I don't think it's the same thing. Ditko put his views into his work, which is fine, Miller put his in an ill informed rant directed at a particular group. ]]> The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=316292#Comment_316292 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=316292#Comment_316292 Mon, 21 Nov 2011 07:35:12 -0800 RenThing ]]> The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=316319#Comment_316319 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=316319#Comment_316319 Mon, 21 Nov 2011 12:17:17 -0800 Comicbookbunny The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=316613#Comment_316613 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=316613#Comment_316613 Wed, 23 Nov 2011 20:25:43 -0800 flecky
@ Jon Wake: If you are still with us could you please explain what you meant saying this site has "lost a step of three".I'm not having a dig.I don't even know you.But for some reason,probably a defect of my personality,maybe paranoia etc but i bear a petty resentment about your statement.Sounds to this old git that you are saying this site has turned to shit.That it's no longer good enough for certain people.

Maybe i should be saying this on open mike.This site is what we make of it.

Anyhow,if it's "Adios" time then bye bye and good luck.

Yet maybe i got your post wrong so if so it's nothing personal and no hard feelings. ]]> The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=316614#Comment_316614 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=316614#Comment_316614 Wed, 23 Nov 2011 20:32:17 -0800 Kosmopolit I always figured Frank had issues. You can't read his earlier stuff without picking up on his definition of what constitutes a manly-man and who doesn't make the cut (just about everyone),

The issue of Daredevil where he beats the living shit out of a bunch of homeless guys just desn't read the same anymore.

Frank's issue with OWS seems to be that they're promoting chaos rather doing something constructive like, say, mindlessly obeying a strong leader like - let's be honest - Frank as he leads them in overthrowing the weak decadent democratic system. ]]> The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=316735#Comment_316735 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=316735#Comment_316735 Fri, 25 Nov 2011 03:53:29 -0800 brinksman The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=316742#Comment_316742 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=316742#Comment_316742 Fri, 25 Nov 2011 04:37:07 -0800 texture Ugh, anyone read this piece of shit by Rick Moody on the Guardian site? Equating all comics / comic-based movies with Miller's allegedly 'cryptofascist' agenda. Ignorant, ill-informed, hyperbolic - the worst kind of reactionary left-wing journalism, makes me even sicker than Miller's rant in many ways...

"...so many high-profile releases are based on a medium, the comic book, made expressly to engage the attentions of pre- and just post-pubescent boys. At least comic books themselves are so politically dim-witted, so pie-in-the-sky idealistic as to be hard to take seriously."

CRUSH-KILL-DESTROY ]]> The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=316750#Comment_316750 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=316750#Comment_316750 Fri, 25 Nov 2011 06:41:11 -0800 Will Couper

Will ]]> The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=316756#Comment_316756 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=316756#Comment_316756 Fri, 25 Nov 2011 07:26:16 -0800 mister hex
What actually does "cryptofascist" MEAN, anyway? Does that mean you're a secret fascist but you're showing a bit of leg? ]]> The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=316762#Comment_316762 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=316762#Comment_316762 Fri, 25 Nov 2011 09:42:29 -0800 Finagle does an author's life and beliefs and informal writings have a bearing on critically interpreting their fiction?
I'm not talking about considering an author's word 'bad' or 'forbidden' because they have controversial political views. Open that question up totally to the theoretical implications.

Is it fair, right or just to critically interpret Miller's work or any author's work, in light of outside utterances from their lives in any form. If so, how much?

Is it any more or less silly to critique an author's work in light of other writings, than is a painter? A chef? A football player? ]]> The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=316773#Comment_316773 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=316773#Comment_316773 Fri, 25 Nov 2011 11:58:30 -0800 Ben Klumaster The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=316774#Comment_316774 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=316774#Comment_316774 Fri, 25 Nov 2011 11:59:55 -0800 texture Hollywood loves comics because it's pre-sold storytelling

That's unquestionably true. But I disagree that comics are pre-sold exclusively to pre-pubescent males, which was the point I felt Moody was belabouring. ]]> The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=316778#Comment_316778 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=316778#Comment_316778 Fri, 25 Nov 2011 12:56:36 -0800 mister hex

does an author's life and beliefs and informal writings have a bearing on critically interpreting their fiction?

Yes and No. Phillip K. Dick was not only a loony, he was mean to people in his everyday ("mundane") life. Lovecraft and Ditko have been mentioned - both are ... problematic, to say the least. Wagner, (whose music, I've been assured, is better than it sounds) was an unreconstructed anti-Semite, as was Henry Ford. Driven a Ford lately? Robert E. Howard, creator of Conan the Fucking Barbarian weren't nuthin' but a Mama's Boy. So? They're all GREAT, right? Yes and No. Frank's Stupid Opinions and Frank's Great Works are Column A and Column B, at least for me*. Does the fact that Roman Polanski is a statutory rapist detract from his films? Not for me. That much. I guess.

*"With two, you get egg-roll." Racist? Non-Racist? Anti-Racist? Split Hairs Much?!?! ]]> The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=316790#Comment_316790 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=316790#Comment_316790 Fri, 25 Nov 2011 13:36:17 -0800 kmcleod The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=316793#Comment_316793 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=316793#Comment_316793 Fri, 25 Nov 2011 14:12:15 -0800 J.Brennan
Personally, I think it's difficult to completely disregard the author when considering a work. After 9-11 Frank Miller either felt free to give voice to a hatred that was already there or was frightened to such an extreme that he feels he needs to use his public platform to warn us all about The Muslim Terrorist threat in hyper-macho style. Both possibilities potentially color his earlier works, though the latter certainly makes Miller's shift more interesting, albeit a little sad. ]]> The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=316798#Comment_316798 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=316798#Comment_316798 Fri, 25 Nov 2011 15:47:29 -0800 Mercer Finn
(It's late and I'm pretty tired, so apologies for the rambling) ]]> The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=316807#Comment_316807 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=316807#Comment_316807 Fri, 25 Nov 2011 17:23:10 -0800 texture Moody's also correct, in his way.

I guess. I just found his way about as appealing as Miller's.

I knew I shouldn't have clicked on to this. Who cares?

Yeah, it's a stupid thing to get het up about, you're right... I thought I was done with it until I read Moody's article, and it'sjust as worthy of being completely ignored as Miller's blog.

It's about whether I think it's silly, not Frank Miller.

I agree. I'm certainly not going to let Miller's personal opinions put me off the bits of his work I enjoy. I don't think propaganda in comics or movies ever puts me off them, unless it's done badly. It's certainly never as appealing as really high-concept ideas like Transmet or Invisibles or V, but it's up to the audience to interpret it. I find propaganda in journalism a much more frightening proposition, like the conservative agenda and attitudes behind a lot of Vice Magazine pieces. ]]> The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=316817#Comment_316817 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=316817#Comment_316817 Fri, 25 Nov 2011 19:01:45 -0800 James Cunningham I knew I shouldn't have clicked on to this. Who cares?
3.5 pages worth of people?

I'll admit, I'm over it and I'm the one who posted the thread, but it's still a conversation that's wandered to some interesting places. Haven't you been here long enough to know that thread-shitting is heavily frowned on? ]]> The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=316825#Comment_316825 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=316825#Comment_316825 Fri, 25 Nov 2011 23:42:04 -0800 oldhat
WHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORES ]]> The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=316834#Comment_316834 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=316834#Comment_316834 Sat, 26 Nov 2011 04:28:26 -0800 city creed "Think for yourself and question authority. And if you can think for yourself, what do you need authority for?"
"To make a world worth living in."
Like that.

Moody, by his earnest, ignorant effort to engage with Miller's flamboyantly awful rhetoric, is in some danger of legitimising an otherwise easily laughed off bed-shitting episode. ]]> The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=316914#Comment_316914 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=316914#Comment_316914 Sun, 27 Nov 2011 06:47:50 -0800 Mercer Finn
Made me think about the way the Twilight novels and films have been interpreted solely through the knowledge that the author is a Mormon, which doesn't answer why the series is such a phenomenon. (I have been guilty of this as well). Obviously, Stephenie Meyer's readers can't ALL be socially conservative Christians, there must be something else in the work which makes it vital for them. I think commentators haven't been paying enough attention to the reader-response part of @J.Brennan's New Criticism / New Historicist outline (v. helpful, thanks!)

I think I generally lean Historicist, just because privileging every reading equally, while obv nice and democratic, just gets unmanageable and a bit boring. Sure every reading is of some worth, but some are more interesting than others -- either identifying ideas and emotions that are more meaningful to you, or able to bring in relevant contexts that can shed light on the way the work was produced or received. The latter can be a platform to explore broader historical questions -- where does the work fit into the discourses of its time etc. Of course, that should be contexts plural, so you don't just narrow it down to the range of influences and motives of the author, but recognize that studying the way the work moves through society and history is equally important.

To bring it back to Frank Miller, a work (like for example) The Dark Knight Returns can stand on its own, with the reader free to interpret its ironies in any way they want. That has some value, at the very least to the individual involved, perhaps to others with whom the interpretation holds some kind of resonance. But there is also value in looking at it in the context of Miller's other work, his influences, and piecing together stylistic and thematic constants or shifts. And there is also value in looking at what impact the work had, how others interpreted it, and what that says about the form (comics, literature) or the discourse (superheroes etc.), when it came out and now. All three are worthwhile endeavours, and I tend to admire commentators that can do all of them -- although it can be a lot of work! ]]> The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=317042#Comment_317042 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=317042#Comment_317042 Mon, 28 Nov 2011 09:21:54 -0800 RenThing
Can I get a second helping of that? ]]> The Frank Miller thing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=317355#Comment_317355 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10347&Focus=317355#Comment_317355 Thu, 01 Dec 2011 02:04:41 -0800 flecky
A great big pile of steaming chimp shit used as wank material for people that want to die.

Am i wrong? ]]>