Whitechapel - Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/ Lussumo Vanilla & Feed Publisher Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=320383#Comment_320383 2012-01-04T08:18:26-08:00 2012-01-04T08:19:48-08:00 Alan Tyson http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1299 Well, the Iowa Caucus just finished up last night. There is no use denying the signs any longer. The time of election is upon us. Santorum did a lot better than I was hoping for or would have ... Iowa Caucus just finished up last night. There is no use denying the signs any longer. The time of election is upon us.

Santorum did a lot better than I was hoping for or would have expected - would have thought Paul would put up a bit more of a fight, and it would come down to those him and Romney.

Then again, Iowa conservatives are a strange lot, and Santorum might appeal to a lot of their social goals - I'm thinking specifically of the gay marriage issue (that's been a hell of a seesaw in Iowa politics ever since it was legalized). Romney also didn't spend as much time in Iowa as the other candidates did - he seems to be concentrating his efforts more on the middle of the campaign than the start, intending to ride on his own name recognition through that rocky part.

Also, if you aren't already, you really should read fivethirtyeight. Good, math-based analyses and predictions, which in the last election turned out right more often than not.

Here we go, here we go, here we go.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=320385#Comment_320385 2012-01-04T08:26:58-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 taphead http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2284 And apparently Bachmann is about to go, and Perry is in Texas "reassessing". Newt is getting ready to really ugly on Romney. I bet Huntsman is feeling like the straight man in a clown ...
I bet Huntsman is feeling like the straight man in a clown car.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=320386#Comment_320386 2012-01-04T08:31:55-08:00 2012-01-04T08:32:16-08:00 Alan Tyson http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1299 I'm kind of impressed that Hunstman got the 1% that he did, actually. Bachmann was always a joke for this election, and I think even she knew it. Perry's "reassessment" is, while ...
Bachmann was always a joke for this election, and I think even she knew it. Perry's "reassessment" is, while gratifying, a little surprising. I expected him to go down a bit later, maybe in or after Florida.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=320388#Comment_320388 2012-01-04T09:00:00-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 Flabyo http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1306 BBC are reporting that Bachmann has definitely dropped out. Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=320389#Comment_320389 2012-01-04T09:14:06-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 nelzbub http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=10569 Santorum?? I mean I was kind of aware that the field was widely made up of nut jobs,but for him to come within eight votes of first place in the first round has really creeped me out. Please ... I mean I was kind of aware that the field was widely made up of nut jobs,but for him to come within eight votes of first place in the first round has really creeped me out.
Please reassure me that Iowa is wildly different than elsewhere... please??]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=320391#Comment_320391 2012-01-04T09:16:03-08:00 2012-01-04T09:22:05-08:00 Alan Tyson http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1299 Well, having spent more than half of my life living there, I can assure you that Iowa is not even vaguely similar, in voting, to some of the big states that Santorum will need to take in order to win ... Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=320394#Comment_320394 2012-01-04T09:26:49-08:00 2012-01-04T09:27:24-08:00 RenThing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=155 Couple of things to keep in mind: 1. The caucuses aren't primaries and, ultimately, are nothing but a popularity contest. Case in point, Huckabee won the IA caucus in 2008 and McCain, who was the ... 1. The caucuses aren't primaries and, ultimately, are nothing but a popularity contest. Case in point, Huckabee won the IA caucus in 2008 and McCain, who was the nominee when all was said and done, was fourth.
2. Santorum, by the fact that he was so unconsidered by Romney and Paul who instead focused on the more high profile Gingrich, has been putting A LOT of effort into IA in order to build more momentum for his campaign. Also, Santorum appeals very highly to the same people that Huckabee did in 2008, the Religious Right GOP voter, in ways that none of the other candidates could.
3. Also, Santorum, despite the effort he was putting into IA, slipped under the radar because SO much attention was being put on Gingrich.
4. I would love, LOVE, Santorum to get the nod because he'd help motivate those voters that Obama has made apathetic in a "Wait, that guy could be President and do his level best to take away the DADT repeal, birth control, and a host of other liberal-value issues? Oh fuck that."]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=320395#Comment_320395 2012-01-04T09:32:22-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 taphead http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2284 You know what I'm really looking forward to? VIRGINIA. In case you missed it, the only two candidates to qualify for the primary are Paul and Romney, and since one of them will get at least 50% of ... really looking forward to? VIRGINIA.

In case you missed it, the only two candidates to qualify for the primary are Paul and Romney, and since one of them will get at least 50% of the vote, it's a winner-take-all. Seriously, even the folks at Redstate (I'm a junkie) are starting to call this The Keystone Kop Primary.

Oh, and McCain is slated to announce his support for Romney tomorrow.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=320396#Comment_320396 2012-01-04T09:47:21-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 RenThing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=155 @Taphead Where does Virginia fall in the order o things? Perry's currently suing there to get on the ballot. In federal court. Over state election law. Good luck with that, Tex. Anyway, ... @Taphead

Where does Virginia fall in the order o things?

Perry's currently suing there to get on the ballot. In federal court. Over state election law. Good luck with that, Tex.

Anyway, Perry doesn't appear to be leaving any time soon as he's just twittered that the great state () of South Carolina is soon to be graced by his presence.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=320398#Comment_320398 2012-01-04T10:13:03-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 nelzbub http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=10569 childish I know but... Santorum Bubbling Up Everywhere and other such mirthful headlines... Santorum Bubbling Up Everywhere
and other such mirthful headlines...]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=320400#Comment_320400 2012-01-04T10:42:13-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 Jay Kay http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=814 @taphead I'd say Paul is the straight man, but otherwise that's a pretty good assessment.
I'd say Paul is the straight man, but otherwise that's a pretty good assessment.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=320401#Comment_320401 2012-01-04T10:51:02-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 taphead http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2284 @RenThing I'm not really sure as to what the actual effect of VA will be in the grand scheme of things, but it will be screwing with the others' magical "momentum" for sure. It's also a ...
I'm not really sure as to what the actual effect of VA will be in the grand scheme of things, but it will be screwing with the others' magical "momentum" for sure. It's also a sweet irony to see Newt not clear the hurdle in his home state. And his whole public image is "the smartest guy in the room"?

It's been fun seeing the GOP activists go from an easy run at the White House into a really depressed and half-hearted finger-pointing mode. I mean, the main proprietor of Redstate is blaming BUSH of all people for this (for not setting up an electable veep as an heir)... It's like they can't really even be bothered to set up a good circular firing squad, but I'm hoping they'll muster the energy for that yet.

That whole veep/heir thing is also weird. I mean, the last ex-veep president was Bush I, and he was a one-term wonder. Not exactly a successful model, I'd think.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=320402#Comment_320402 2012-01-04T11:01:35-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 RenThing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=155 @taphead I think the vp/heir thing is mostly a myth that's just stubbornly held on. I mean, I'd love to have a beer with the guy but Biden as Pres? Heeeeeeeeeeeeeell no. The amusement I've been ...
I think the vp/heir thing is mostly a myth that's just stubbornly held on. I mean, I'd love to have a beer with the guy but Biden as Pres? Heeeeeeeeeeeeeell no.

The amusement I've been getting has come from watching the GOP establishment look at their choices and hold their noses as they sort of acknowledge that Romney is going to be the guy, but having the GOP/Tea Party/Religious Right pleabs saying, "NO!" I mean, getting them to accept him as the nominee candidate has been likened to getting a dog to swallow a pill it really doesn't want to.

At this point, until we have more caucuses and primaries, I think we're looking at:
1. Romney as the establishment/1%ers/sane(er) GOP choice
2. Santorum as the Fundie/Religious Right/anti-anything resembling progress choice
3. Paul as the Libertarian/original Tea Party/crazy choice

It'll be interesting to see if Santorum can raise the same cash as Romney or Paul and the tone of their advertising, both of whom vastly outspent Gingrich and used most of that money crushing the Gecko (as my wife refers to him) down into the floor.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=320403#Comment_320403 2012-01-04T11:12:13-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 Alan Tyson http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1299 and used most of that money crushing the Gecko (as my wife refers to him) down into the floor. I wonder if Romney and Paul will go after Santorum the same way. It doesn't seem like the smart ... and used most of that money crushing the Gecko (as my wife refers to him) down into the floor.

I wonder if Romney and Paul will go after Santorum the same way. It doesn't seem like the smart choice - Santorum's a dyed-in-the-wool conservative, and any blasting of him will push Romney and Paul further away from the right, which is the last thing they want.

I'm really torn between whether I'd prefer Romney to take the nomination (it will, I really hope, make for a saner election), or if I'd rather see, as Ren pointed out, an absolute bughouse madman like Santorum get the ticket, thus mobilizing the left.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=320430#Comment_320430 2012-01-04T16:01:26-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 Finagle http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5254 What made last night's contest so interesting is how the three wings of the republican party are represented: 1. The Better Business Bureau/Hawk wing - "Rockefeller" republicans, ...
1. The Better Business Bureau/Hawk wing - "Rockefeller" republicans, represented by Romney.
2. The Christian Conservatives, represented by Santorus.
3. The Libertarians, represented by Paul.

The real problem for the republican party long-term? Fewer than 15% of people under 21 identified as republicans - but of those, over 50% were for Ron Paul.

What this means is that the populist, antifederalist wing of the party that also overlaps with the Occupy/99% movement is ripe to be split off from the republicans - and possibly the democrats as well.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=320433#Comment_320433 2012-01-04T16:22:02-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 RenThing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=155 @Finagle Here's the problem with that situation: There will, in all likelihood, never be a big split and a national third party start unless there is a very, very, VERY large amont of outside ...
Here's the problem with that situation:
There will, in all likelihood, never be a big split and a national third party start unless there is a very, very, VERY large amont of outside organization and money sunk into the process, not to mention time and continued interest. Why?

Well, for starters, each state has different hoops to jump through in order to become what is known (in California at least) as a "certified party". When registering to vote anyone can put anything down under that "Other" box and, when I used to work for a county elections department in California, you saw some creative answers. Any and all of those could be potential parties, including the "Ice Cream Party" of New York's "The Rent's Too Damn High Party", but they aren't "certified". Certified parties in California hold a certain percentage of the total state registrations as well as other requirements (parties like the Green Party and the American Independent Party are certified third parties). So, for California, you would need to establish a massive organzation to track and record the registrations for the new party, make sure that such registrations are valid and counted correctly, and make sure you jump through all the right hoops to be certified. Then you'd have to go through all of the other forty-nine states and do their unique hoops.

And there's always the threat of being "decertified" as well if your registration numbers drop below a certain percentage.

It's my opinion that the legislators in the states, who were primarily Dem and GOP, made it intentionally difficult for third parties to flourish to cement their power.

So, without a massive effort (and the money to back it) there will never be a nation-wide, nationally-successful (in that they regularly, and frequently, get people elected to office) third party.

Now, could those dissatisfied Republicans (and Dems) jump ship to a national third-party and try to take it over? Sure, but I don't see that happening either for the same reason people hold their nose and vote for a party candidate even if they don't like them; they A) don't want to feel like their vote didn't matter, B) they don't want those "other guys", whoever that might be, to win, and C) it's far easier to stay in place and bitch than start something new.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=320442#Comment_320442 2012-01-04T18:14:05-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 Jay Kay http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=814 populist, antifederalist Honestly that seems like a bit of a contradiction to me. populist, antifederalist

Honestly that seems like a bit of a contradiction to me.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=320460#Comment_320460 2012-01-05T01:17:08-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 Osmosis http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=866 Cheeky tenner on Jon Huntsman? Or completely wishful thinking? Jon Huntsman? Or completely wishful thinking?]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=320472#Comment_320472 2012-01-05T06:51:24-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 Cat Vincent http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=447 Throw this into the mix - Ron Paul's deep connections to the far right (ie Stormfront) are known. His connections to Southern reconstructionists & (of all things) Scottish Rite Masonry... less ... Scottish Rite Masonry... less so.

He's probably not got a snowball's chance, but it's interesting to note just how deep into the dodgy fringe he is.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=320473#Comment_320473 2012-01-05T07:01:34-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 Finagle http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5254 @Jay Kay - populist, antifederalist Honestly that seems like a bit of a contradiction to me. I'm afraid I don't follow. American 'Federalists' are classically in favor of a strong ...
populist, antifederalist


Honestly that seems like a bit of a contradiction to me.


I'm afraid I don't follow. American 'Federalists' are classically in favor of a strong central government. Populism is just an appeal to the perceived interests of the people. The current blend of American populist thinking comes along with a strong distrust in the central government.

The blend itself *is* a bit paradoxical because the majority of these popularist tea party and Occupied types aren't necessarily against government programs - welfare, social security, medicare - in principle. They rather feel that they have been deceived about them or that they won't actually be there for that generation when they retire.

The reason why the whole Occupy/Tea Party/populist axis is so unstable is that it isn't necessarily driven as much by distrust in government, as disappointment. I'd say about as many people really believe government has failed them, as there are real hardcore libertarians who believe that the government should never have been doing these federal programs in the first place.

The worst sort of cynic is a disappointed person. In the 20's and 30's, the dispossessed and disenfranchised were strong supporters of the State to intervene and solve their problems. We've now seen that those promises weren't worth the paper they were written on. That's disappointment in government. A friend of mine who has Ron Paul stickers on his car was complaining about how when he was a kid, the city would clear the sidewalks, and now they don't get that anymore. That is disappointment in governmet.

So sure, there is a bit of a schitzophrenic feel to the crowds who protest that they want government to stay out of their lives - and please, don't cut their subsidies. For ever one honest, hardcore libertarian who really doesn't want government in their lives, there are two to three voters who simply believe government has failed them, whetner because of corporate interests or those damn immigrants.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=320479#Comment_320479 2012-01-05T09:45:26-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 Richard Pace http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=320 I'm usually off hiding in the art threads, but I think this might be on-topic enough for here: Cheers! santorum

Cheers!]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=320487#Comment_320487 2012-01-05T10:50:28-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 nelzbub http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=10569 @ Mr Pace- that's genius. Applause.Thank you. Any chance of a series of these to follow the circus to its conclusion? Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=320492#Comment_320492 2012-01-05T11:42:27-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 Richard Pace http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=320 @nelzbub: I'll inevitably touch on the politics leading up to the election, but I'm pretty much doing whatever strikes my fancy as Wednesday hits. I had already started a strip about ... Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=320493#Comment_320493 2012-01-05T11:45:11-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 Horrible Warning Si http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1223 Anyone care to put their digikudos where their mouth is and call it? Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=320499#Comment_320499 2012-01-05T12:04:30-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 RenThing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=155 @Horrible Warning Si Well, at this point there's the three options broken down into unsurprising stereotypes: 1. Romney is getting the votes of party establishment, business backers, and those ...
Well, at this point there's the three options broken down into unsurprising stereotypes:
1. Romney is getting the votes of party establishment, business backers, and those liberals would probably characterize as 1%-ers
2. Santorum is getting the Religious Right/evangelical vote
3. Paul is getting the smaller, but still pretty mobilized, Libertarian/original Tea Party vote

As previously noted Romney or Paul going after Santorum has some issues but pretty much everyone expects Romney to get it? The reason is that Santorum's messages are often a bit crazed, extremely negative, and he doesn't have much of a political history and Paul is, well, Ron Paul. Hell, Ron Paul won the Iowa straw poll months ago and hardly got mentioned in the press while most of the focus was given to people who lost. The thing I find funny is that the GOP establishment is obviously pushing for Romney, to the point where they're on television talking about him as if he's already finished the Primary, while still acknowledging that the GOP base really doesn't want to vote for him.

At this point it's too early (case in point, Mike Huckabee won the 2008 Iowa Caucus and McCain got fourth but ended up the nominee regardless) and a lot could happen. With the Carolinas coming up I expect to see a probably similar break down as this time with Romney possibly slipping to a close third behind Paul (because of his money and Mormon backgrounds).

At the moment though the Dems are salivating at the hope that Santorum gets it because nothing will motivate an apathetic Democratic/liberal voter to go in like their mediocre candidate running against someone they hate. If Santorum gets it I expect San Francisco to see record number votes. Best scenario for the Dems is Santorum takes the nomination and Paul jumps ship and runs as a third party. The GOP would have to pull off something amazing, or the Dems would do their magical "pull defeat from the jaws of victory" move, to beat Obama.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=320510#Comment_320510 2012-01-05T12:32:39-08:00 2012-01-05T12:35:52-08:00 Alan Tyson http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1299 @Horrible Warning Si: I'm going to say Romney, with either Gingrich or Santorum as running mate, gets the nomination. I'm also just going to throw out there that Obama gets re-elected. Obama in ...
I'm going to say Romney, with either Gingrich or Santorum as running mate, gets the nomination. I'm also just going to throw out there that Obama gets re-elected. Obama in the White House has been disappointing, but Obama on the campaign trail could rally up a lot of the support he's lost. Really, as well, Obama isn't doing a whole lot worse, approval-wise, than Clinton was in '96. I know, very different circumstances, but that's my prediction nevertheless.

Because, really, as much as the left has been disappointed with him, they'd be actively terrified by the prospect of anyone the Republicans are running getting into the White House, even the relatively sane and reasonable Romney. They'll go back to Obama because the only other choice is not voting. Along with that, Obama might have won himself friends among the moderate hawks (I know, that sounds like an oxymoron, but stay with me) for his willingness to drone-bomb anything and everything that looks like a threat. One of my conservative friends said that they thought "Obama when he's pissed off is scarier than Bush ever was," and they said it like it was a good thing.

What'll be interesting is how much Obama chooses to reach out to the Occupy crowd, considering how much those two seem to be on opposite sides a lot of the time. And if Obama doesn't, will Ron Paul (who will almost certainly drop out of the Republican race and run third-part) decide to give it a try? Could, in a weird friggin' twist of fate, Ron Paul actually steal voters from Obama? That's what gets me reaching for the popcorn bucket, personally.

That, and how will this affect Congressional elections in 2014? Would an Obama win trigger another neocon/Tea Party surge, or would it rally the left and get some more moderates and (gasp) liberals into the Senate and House? Or would the same guy in the White House mean the same guys in Congress?]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=320511#Comment_320511 2012-01-05T12:38:50-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 Alan Tyson http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1299 Also, just one more quick thought then I promise I'll shut up for a while. I mean, I'd love to have a beer with the guy but Biden as Pres? Heeeeeeeeeeeeeell no. You're right, Biden is cranky, ...
I mean, I'd love to have a beer with the guy but Biden as Pres? Heeeeeeeeeeeeeell no.


You're right, Biden is cranky, emotional, and not the most populist guy the Democrats could hope for. Then again, Obama was all the things Biden isn't, and he... well... and he...

Fuck it. Biden in 2016!]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=320512#Comment_320512 2012-01-05T12:41:24-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 Horrible Warning Si http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1223 "...and Paul jumps ship and runs as a third party." Likely? Also, I'm intrigued. What's the street-level consensus in Mericky about the whole concept of the 3rd party? I get the ...
Likely?

Also, I'm intrigued. What's the street-level consensus in Mericky about the whole concept of the 3rd party? I get the impression (mostly from imported yank-comedy shows) that the "two party system" is routinely mocked. Would Joe Bloggs ever vote for a Donkeyphant?]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=320513#Comment_320513 2012-01-05T12:53:10-08:00 2012-01-05T12:55:16-08:00 Alan Tyson http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1299 Si, (and I know I'm breaking my earlier promise, BUT) the issue with a viable third party in America is, as has been previously stated, most parties have to go through a vetting process to even get ...
The problem seems to be that the Democrats and the Republicans, in their quest for more votes, have done a fantastic job of absorbing all kinds of political ideas into their platforms, even ones that directly oppose their original dogmas (I'm looking at you, runaway defense budget Republicans). As soon as an idea or movement becomes popular, one of the two parties go for it and swallows it, often without chewing. Look at what happened with the Tea Party - in the beginning, the TP was as pissed off with the Republicans as they were with the Democrats for their mismanagement of the federal budget, but over time, enough Republicans managed to woo the TP into becoming neocon shock troops (which, by the way, a lot of Tea Partiers are pissed as hell about). These groups then become factions within the party, who will bicker and fight and gnash their teeth at one another during peacetime, but when the other guy makes a move that none (or even just most, or the most vocal) don't like, they'll band together and go-go-gadget party line.

So, if a movement pops up to the left of the American political center (which is nowhere near the center of, say, Canada, Britain, or the majority of Europe), it'll probably get swallowed by the Democrats: this is why the party of Truman and Kennedy can now tolerate being associated with vocal socialists. On the other hand, if it pops up to the right, the Republicans will buy them flowers and roses until they join them: and that is why the party of Eisenhower spends every bit of pocket lint they come across on the military and intelligence budget.

What if something pops up in the center? Well... that's a tricky path to walk, especially in America. You'll get accused (as everyone even a little bit moderate in American politics has at one point) of "flip-flopping" on the issues, even if your actual stance never changes, just because you get some of your ideas from the right, and some from the left. America, on the whole, is very much a "you're either with us or against us" kinda place, though this was not always true. We're suspicious of people who aren't willing to take a stand... or who are willing to take a stand all by themselves. Which is kind of weird, for a culture that espouses independence as much as we claim to.

To paraphrase Churchill: "The Two-Party System is the worst form of Democracy in the world... except for all the others." Or, at least, that seems to be the general consensus.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=320518#Comment_320518 2012-01-05T13:24:07-08:00 2012-01-05T13:28:33-08:00 shannon.gilly.3 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=8549 judging by the activism of his base, Paul would probably turn out to be one of the most successful third party candidates in history if he goes that route. His percentage of the popular vote might ... here are the numbers. The last time a third party candidate picked up an electoral college vote was 1972, when John Hospers managed to grab one. At no point in US history has a third party candidate won the election. The last major shift in parties was during the 1850s, when the Whig party essentially disintegrated over the slavery issue and reformed as the Republican party, with proslavery Whigs ending up in the short lived Constitutional Union party. The first election with the Republicans involved went to the Democrats, and by the second one, the Whigs ceased to be a party, the Republicans became the second party, the Democrats experienced a temporary split, and we went to war within a year.

The street level consensus is that as bad as the two main parties are, voting for a third party generally has a negative effect. Democrats generally credit the presence of a popular third party candidate (along with minor election fraud) with the defeat of Al Gore in 2000. The idea is that, in a winner take all election, any candidate that peels away the hard core or extreme of a given major party's base inevitably gives the win to the opposing party (e.g. a strong Green candidate = Republican victory, strong Libertarian candidate = Democrat victory). as such, voting for a third party is considered by many to be the same as either throwing away one's vote or voting for the main opposition.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=320520#Comment_320520 2012-01-05T13:35:25-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 RenThing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=155 @Anchorbeard The Tea Party was always, nominally, Republican even if they were just as cranky at their party as at the Democrats; they were Ron Paul's followers from the start and were ...
The Tea Party was always, nominally, Republican even if they were just as cranky at their party as at the Democrats; they were Ron Paul's followers from the start and were appropriated, as was the Tea Party idea, by the establishment and the Koch brothers to, as you say, be turned into shocktroops but it wasn't like they weren't probably leaning in that direction anyway. Would he have as much success at getting the Occupy crowd? Maybe, but right now the Republicans are cast as the do-nothing, change-nothing, big-money party and so while he might get some of the Occupiers who lean more Libertarian, I don't know if he'd peel off enough to significantly balance out the greater number of votes he'd take from the Republicans, which would mean a net win for Obama.

@Si and ahnnon

I think it's likely. Will it have any chance of success or any chance of impact? No and that's debatable.

I know that people always throw around the 2000 Florida loss and blame it on Nader but when you look at the numbers, there were probably more Dem-registered voters who didn't vote in Florida than the total ballots cast for Nader in that state. With that in mind, if people had gone in and cast a vote then there wouldn't have been an issue.

Now, I definitely see Ron Paul running as a third party candidate being like Ross Perot, who was the most successful third party candidate in my lifetime in that he was getting large, and favorable, press coverage as well as being involved in the Presidential debates until he flamed out, quit the race, and then rejoined a few weeks later (never recovered from that). Could he have won? No, but if he'd stayed through to the end he could've possibly caused something along the lines of that happening more frequently.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=320521#Comment_320521 2012-01-05T13:41:06-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 Lawrence Rider http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=10647 @Si, Romney to take the nom, but not quickly or smoothly. It definitely won't be a tie by the time it reaches the convention, though. Santorum will poll well in the south, but ultimately not well ...
Romney to take the nom, but not quickly or smoothly. It definitely won't be a tie by the time it reaches the convention, though. Santorum will poll well in the south, but ultimately not well enough, and he won't get near the VP slot either - that'll be Christie or Jeb Bush, I'd imagine - someone who brings something Romney doesn't without alienating the floating voters too much. Paul will fade away fairly quickly now - his best shot was in winning Iowa and trying to build some momentum.

Narrow Obama win come November, but it's so close almost any kind of negative (for him) event could swing it the other way.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=320522#Comment_320522 2012-01-05T14:01:13-08:00 2012-01-05T14:03:24-08:00 shannon.gilly.3 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=8549 @Ren I agree that the 2000 election was decided more by democrats who failed to vote in droves, and that Nader's candidacy had little, if anything, to do with the results. On the other hand, more ...
edited to fix a decidedly Faulknerian sentence.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=320523#Comment_320523 2012-01-05T14:09:17-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 DavidLejeune http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4220 They'll go back to Obama because the only other choice is not voting.I actually think we'll see a much lower voter turnout this year than in '08. The young liberal voters who formed Obama's base in ... They'll go back to Obama because the only other choice is not voting.I actually think we'll see a much lower voter turnout this year than in '08. The young liberal voters who formed Obama's base in '08 are the ones who are the most disillusioned with him, and between Health Care Reform not being as sweeping as everyone hoped, the amount of time it took to repeal DADT, not vetoing NDAA (even though it wouldn't have accomplished anything to do so, but that's a whole other conversation), and potentially SOPA/PIPA, I'm afraid the prevailing opinion in the 18-25 voter bracket is going to be 'We turned out in droves for this guy last time, and he wasn't much better than the previous guy. And the other guys are worse, so fuck it. I'm staying home.']]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=320528#Comment_320528 2012-01-05T14:48:28-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 longtimelurker http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=7739 @Si Ron Paul will support the Republican candidate. His organization will learn from this and re-emerge under Rand Paul in future elections, with similar results. Romney will claw and scratch ...
Ron Paul will support the Republican candidate. His organization will learn from this and re-emerge under Rand Paul in future elections, with similar results.

Romney will claw and scratch his way to the nomination, and will choose a younger running mate from the southern states, someone like Marco Rubio.

Republicans will keep the House (although while probably giving up a few seats) and astonish everyone by retaking the Senate.

Obama will narrowly win re-election, after a series of new Occupy protests allow him to cast Romney as being part of the Wall Street establishment. The charge will stick. The debates will be a draw, as neither candidate seriously wounds the other or performs very poorly. For the fourth time in a row, there will be record voter turnout.

Obama's second term will be full of Congressional hearings and talk of impeachment. Obama's cabinet members and staffers will flood the exits and tell-all books will sell millions of copies.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=320539#Comment_320539 2012-01-05T16:06:58-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 RenThing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=155 @longtimelurker The debates will be a draw, as neither candidate seriously wounds the other or performs very poorly. I'm not certain about that. If there's one thing that can be said about ...
The debates will be a draw, as neither candidate seriously wounds the other or performs very poorly.

I'm not certain about that. If there's one thing that can be said about Obama, it's that he did very well in the debates against McCain and delivered some pretty brutal cuts, some of them seemingly off the cuff. Romney's off the cuff remarks (like the $10,000 bet) get him into trouble so I'd say that while Romney wouldn't nearly as beaten up by Obama as Perry (because having those two debate would just be cruel to the governor), I'd put my bet on Obama and not because I'm a liberal.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=320540#Comment_320540 2012-01-05T16:17:17-08:00 2012-01-05T16:20:46-08:00 Finagle http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5254 @Si - For the primaries and the election: Romney bleeds for the first six weeks or so as Santorum and Paul worry his flanks for a while, then drop out after the big states get locked up for ...
For the primaries and the election:

Romney bleeds for the first six weeks or so as Santorum and Paul worry his flanks for a while, then drop out after the big states get locked up for Romney.

Paul may run as a third party candidate. If he does, that is worse for Obama than for Romney. As I pointed out in my last post, the Republican youth who skew towards Paul do so heavily in the under-21 demographic...that is also Obama's base as well. Ron Paul would suck the socially liberal, fiscally conservative part of the Democratic party out of the room as a third party candidate, do no better than 20% of the pouplar vote, and achieve nothing except be another Nader.

If Paul doesn't run, Obama wins by 5% or less, but still wins.

-----
#Third Parties:

The one thing I'd like to point out is that although we're set up for a two-party system, everyone needs to keep in mind it doesn't have to be THESE two parties.

The Democrats and Republicans have performed magnetic pole shifts at least one in history. At one point the Republicans were 'classic liberals' who promoted the freedom of the emergent middle class citizen over the Democrat's entrenched political and social interests especially in the South.

I don't predict a third party will be successful. I do predict, though, that there will be a bloody and prologned fight for the character of the Republican party as it strives to define itself as more than anti-socialist and anti-federalist and anti-immigrant. Demographics look ugly for the continued future of the party as it exists now.

What is entirely possible is for the Republicans to re-emerge as a populist, anti-federalist, libertarian party, leaving the Christian right essentially disenfranchised and ceding the rich folks and the hawks and the big-government conservatives to the Democrats...again, which is where they came from in the first place.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=320557#Comment_320557 2012-01-05T18:55:43-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 RenThing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=155 @Finagle I don't know if Obama was all that popular with Republican 18-25s back in 2008. Do you have any data on that? Re: party-shift - Last big shift was in the late sixties. A bunch of ...
I don't know if Obama was all that popular with Republican 18-25s back in 2008. Do you have any data on that?

Re: party-shift - Last big shift was in the late sixties. A bunch of southern Democratic senators switched to the Republican party and several northern Republics went Dem. I believe the issue at hand was the idea of segregation and it being banned (Strom Thurmond was one such senator).]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=320584#Comment_320584 2012-01-05T23:56:25-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 James Cunningham http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2925 Si- I'm calling it now- Obama beats Romney at roughly 60% overall voter count. Couldn't really say how the electoral college goes, though. Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=320633#Comment_320633 2012-01-06T09:56:44-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 longtimelurker http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=7739 @RenThing Valid points. I'm trying to guess the MOST LIKELY OUTCOME, and knockout punches in Presidential debates are actually pretty rare. I suppose Obama got some cuts at McCain, but I don't ...
Valid points. I'm trying to guess the MOST LIKELY OUTCOME, and knockout punches in Presidential debates are actually pretty rare.

I suppose Obama got some cuts at McCain, but I don't really remember anything sticking out. Mostly I remember seeing one guy looking calm and in control while the other guy lost his temper and his place. That works with a crazy like McCain. The same tactic will not work with Romney.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=320637#Comment_320637 2012-01-06T10:21:36-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 RenThing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=155 @longtimelurker I wouldn't say he'd lose his temper, but Romney has lost his compsure in that he gets rocked back on his heels. There are definitely some key areas where he'd be weak in a debate ...
I wouldn't say he'd lose his temper, but Romney has lost his compsure in that he gets rocked back on his heels. There are definitely some key areas where he'd be weak in a debate against Obama; I mean, how exactly is he going to counter anything regarding Obamacare when it was patterned so closely after Romneycare?]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=320650#Comment_320650 2012-01-06T12:21:32-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 longtimelurker http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=7739 Your question illustrates the whole point: they are more similar than different. And that's a challenge for both of them, because they both want landslide victories. It is simply not going to ... Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=320761#Comment_320761 2012-01-07T16:50:33-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 Neila http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5582 Whatever happens with the Republican stuff in the end, I just hope Rick Perry isn't the Governor of Texas anymore, OR the President of the U.S. Also, all the Republicans seem the same to me. :I Also, all the Republicans seem the same to me. :I]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=320802#Comment_320802 2012-01-08T05:13:26-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 Finagle http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5254 All three of the top candidates - Ron Paul, Mitt Romney, and Rick Santorum - performed adequately. Nobody laid a glove on Mitt, and that does make him the winner by default, as his performance was ...
However, Santorum largely failed to get any applause with his set piece answers. Ron Paul did well in front of the more libertarian-leaning New Hampshire audience, though, and pressed the larger point several times that he is there in order to represent his "Constitutional" values approach in the face of the "big government" conservatives represented by Romney and Santorum. Oddly though, he never really went after Romney directly, focusing largely on some direct exchanges with Santorum.

There's another debate in an hour on Meet the Press.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=320830#Comment_320830 2012-01-08T12:35:21-08:00 2012-01-08T12:36:01-08:00 government spy http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6088 God help me, can't stop reading political articles and reading the comments... getting so frustrated I want to strangle someone, becoming less and less willing to be reasonable and listen to someone ...
Need to quit, but can't stop, terrified of all of the Republican nominees...

@Neila, trust me, a good portion of the rest of Texas is hoping right a long with you]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=320845#Comment_320845 2012-01-08T15:58:17-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 Jay Kay http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=814 @Finagle If I remember right, Paul went after Romney during previous debates--not direct mud-slinging, but more of, "this is what he says he'll do as President, I think that's wrong because ...
If I remember right, Paul went after Romney during previous debates--not direct mud-slinging, but more of, "this is what he says he'll do as President, I think that's wrong because of this."]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=321071#Comment_321071 2012-01-10T16:28:10-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 RenThing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=155 Well, NH primary is under way and supposedly all of the polls have closed (which seems early to me but, then again, NH has a fraction of the population of California). Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=321072#Comment_321072 2012-01-10T16:44:13-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 StefanJ http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=961 I'm surprised and rather pleased that Gingrich has gone all Occupy on Romney. This guarantees that Newt will never be the nominee (the conservative think tanks are already calling him a heretic). ...
This guarantees that Newt will never be the nominee (the conservative think tanks are already calling him a heretic). Did he know this, and do it anyway out of spite?

And it means that Obama can Go There. The class card has been put into play . . . . by a republican!]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=321073#Comment_321073 2012-01-10T16:46:00-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 Flabyo http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1306 Discussing this this evening (disclaimer, I'm a brit, so don't really get your politics) and we reckon it'll be Romney and that he'll try and get Palin as running mate. Can it work that way?
Can it work that way?]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=321074#Comment_321074 2012-01-10T16:46:01-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 RenThing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=155 @Stefan Scalzi put it well with the idea that now that Gingrich knows he's probably not going to be the nominee, he's showing his true colors by approaching it as "...and neither will ...
Scalzi put it well with the idea that now that Gingrich knows he's probably not going to be the nominee, he's showing his true colors by approaching it as "...and neither will you."]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=321076#Comment_321076 2012-01-10T16:56:18-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 StefanJ http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=961 By this point, I think Palin is fatally tainted. However, Romney would probably pick for his running mate another religious conservative of the Flaming Looney variety, to make up for his being A) ...
However, Romney would probably pick for his running mate another religious conservative of the Flaming Looney variety, to make up for his being A) associated with the northeast, and B) a Mormon.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=321079#Comment_321079 2012-01-10T17:08:42-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 Flabyo http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1306 There's a belief in the UK that Palin isn't running this time because while she wants to run, she doesn't want to run against Obama. Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=321151#Comment_321151 2012-01-11T07:43:08-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 RenThing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=155 I think the Tinkerbell, "Donate more and she'll run" bullshit she pulled earlier, the trumped up bus campaign, trying to appropriate an annual memorial motorcycle ride for her own political ... Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=321154#Comment_321154 2012-01-11T07:54:48-08:00 2012-01-11T09:20:57-08:00 Alan Tyson http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1299 Is it just me, or did the NH polls do a nice job of listing the candidates, in descending order, of least to most bugfuck insane? With the one exception being Huntsman. Even in New Hampshire, he ...
With the one exception being Huntsman. Even in New Hampshire, he did better than I expected. Might be interesting to see if he can spin that up into more support. The smart thing for Romney would be to grab Santorum as running mate, but who knows, Hunstman might make himself out to be the wedge that Romney can drive into Obama's faltering moderate support.

Also, oldhat and I have a $5 bet on Perry dropping before South Carolina. She thinks he's just crazy enough to try it again - I agree. However, I think his staff are going to jump ship before then.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=321161#Comment_321161 2012-01-11T08:49:31-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 Neila http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5582 @Anchorbeard Perry's delusional enough to ride it till the end when someone has to tap him on the shoulder and whisper in his ear "It's over" even after his staff leaves. I think it comes ... Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=321164#Comment_321164 2012-01-11T08:55:48-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 Sonny http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1167 I've already decided that I'm putting a tag/graffiti in the write-in section this year. And maybe every other year for the rest of my life. The system is soooooooo fucked. Some have predicted this ... Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=321174#Comment_321174 2012-01-11T09:43:13-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 RenThing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=155 @Nella Well, he has said he's going to South Carolina so him leaving before then is unlikely, though him staying after South Carolina is anyone's guess (I do agree with you that it may take the ...
Well, he has said he's going to South Carolina so him leaving before then is unlikely, though him staying after South Carolina is anyone's guess (I do agree with you that it may take the guy with the pushbroom cleaning up around him for Perry to finally get the hint).

What amused me was that Fox was calling it as early as 15% of precincts counted. The fact that Paul and Huntsman did as well as they did was interesting. Not too surprised that Santorum did as bad as he did; New Hampshire has had legalized gay marriage for a while (politically speaking) and I couldn't see the people of NH taking too well to his bigoted message. Glad I was right.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=321183#Comment_321183 2012-01-11T11:45:30-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 JP Carpenter http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2485 I don't understand how any of those people, with the possible exception of Huntsman (but possibly just through my lack of knowledge) could ever be elected to any kind of public body at all. They're ...
Perhaps its relative and UK politicians look like that to Americans, but these guys seem like complete freaks to me, and it's terrifying that any of them could be serious contenders for 'supreme commander of most scarily armed country on earth'.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=321185#Comment_321185 2012-01-11T12:02:01-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 Lawrence Rider http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=10647 I'm sticking with Romney picking either Jeb Bush or Chris Christie as running mate, although Marco Rubio is looking like a terrifying possibility in a bid to shore up Florida. Santorum's going to be ... Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=321186#Comment_321186 2012-01-11T12:08:14-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 KeeperofManyNames http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=3394 @JP Carpenter: Pretty sure most Americans think your constitution is bizarre, but otherwise, really, look what we're working with over here. I think most of us recognize that our politicians are ...
Pretty sure most Americans think your constitution is bizarre, but otherwise, really, look what we're working with over here. I think most of us recognize that our politicians are in a whole new class of crazy.

At least, I hope most of us recognize that.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=321189#Comment_321189 2012-01-11T12:55:30-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 RenThing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=155 @JP, Keeper I know that the current GOP line-up is one of the (many) reasons why several of my personal, conservative friends are no longer registered GOP. Yes, people realize how fucking crazy ...
I know that the current GOP line-up is one of the (many) reasons why several of my personal, conservative friends are no longer registered GOP. Yes, people realize how fucking crazy they are. Unfortunately, the crazy block are the most frequent voters.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=321224#Comment_321224 2012-01-11T22:56:37-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 ScottBieser http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=477 Scanning through this discussion I find it interesting that the on-going wars in the Middle East, and the dynamic that has on the developing Presidential contest, seems to be completely ignored, in ...
With polls showing the majority of Americans now quite war-weary and eager to call the troops home, the only prominent anti-war candidate is Ron Paul. Anti-war Americans had pinned their hopes on Obama in 2008 and now realize they have been made fools.

This is the reason that when polls ask voters to choose in a one-off contest between Obama and a specific Republican candidate, Paul generally does as well as Romney (with the other Repubs falling far behind).

As the wars rage on (or even expand, as in Iran or Syria), and the economy continues to worsen (as I believe it will, although official statistics will be cooked to try and hide it), Obama will have a tough fight on his hands and could well lose, whether the GOP nominee is Romney, or Paul, or someone else.


BTW I don't expect Paul to run 3rd Party if/when he loses the GOP nomination. Most likely he will endorse another 3rd Party candidate, like he did in 2008. It might be the Libertarian this time, depending on who the LP nominates.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=321238#Comment_321238 2012-01-12T04:00:34-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 Finagle http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5254 @ScottBeiser: If Paul continues to run a strong second or third in any of the major primaries, I expect him to actually show up with his delegates at the nominating convention and ask for them to ...
If Paul continues to run a strong second or third in any of the major primaries, I expect him to actually show up with his delegates at the nominating convention and ask for them to be seated, and further ask for concessions in the Republican platform. There's going to be a lot of horse trading going on behind the scenes. The mainstream Republican establishment will be desperate to stop a split in the party.

This likely means that Romney and the party will be forced to advance a platform in the general election that includes more drastic austerity measures than what Romney is currently proposing. What Paul winds up doing, I expect will depends on how much of his platform gets adopted by the party at the convention. Paul has been firm in his intention to exercise a gravitational pull on the mainstream Party in a more "Constitutional" direction.

However, if Paul does have a strong influence at the convention, this means social conservatives will be the ones left out in the cold. If the social conservatives fail to rally around a single candidate, they will be the ones left without influence at the convention. The result could be a strong shift of the overall Republican platform in a libertarian and smaller government direction, while leaving the culture wars stuff like gay marriage alone.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=321245#Comment_321245 2012-01-12T06:08:11-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 government spy http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6088 @ScottBeiser At the risk of sounding confrontational, I'm curious as to your wording of the only prominent anti-war candidate is Ron Paul. Anti-war Americans had pinned their hopes on Obama in ...
At the risk of sounding confrontational, I'm curious as to your wording of
the only prominent anti-war candidate is Ron Paul. Anti-war Americans had pinned their hopes on Obama in 2008 and now realize they have been made fools.


When Obama brought the soldiers out of Iraq. Reasons or explanations aside, combat troops are out of Iraq. How does that make people who see him as anti-war fools?]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=321266#Comment_321266 2012-01-12T08:58:46-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 RenThing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=155 Or the fact that the administration has been continuing talks with the Taliban that were started with Bush's administration to end things in Afghanistan. I mean, sure, Obama did the bombings in ...
I mean, sure, Obama did the bombings in Libya and then there's that (startling) gray area of Al-Alwiki (sp?) in Yemen but Obama hasn't gotten us involved in any long-standing disputes in the same way that Bush did. Yes, he took military actions but so has every President. There's a difference between "anti-war" and "anti-military".]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=321313#Comment_321313 2012-01-12T22:15:50-08:00 2012-01-12T22:17:06-08:00 Jay Kay http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=814 I think the problem with your defenses is that he's been given FAR more slack. Obama has committed wars on other countries for no real reason (and I'm sorry, but I see no difference between war and ...
At the risk of sounding confrontational, it really feels to me that a lot of the media and the left who were on Bush with every military action seem perfectly fine with those actions when it's one of their guys doing it.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=321316#Comment_321316 2012-01-12T22:53:58-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 DavidLejeune http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4220 People's problem with Bush was that after the UN said no to the Iraq war he said 'Fuck you, we're attacking them anyway.' The one military action that was initiated by Obama was done alongside and ... initiated by Obama was done alongside and with the full support of the UN and NATO. And re-focusing on Afghanistan as the primary battlefield of the War on Terror was one of his campaign platforms, so anybody who was expecting him to pull all our troops out of there just wasn't paying attention.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=321327#Comment_321327 2012-01-13T05:10:08-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 government spy http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6088 I don't believe anyone here sounded "fine" with one of our guys doing it, in fact, we've been unhappy that it's taken this long to end the war in Iraq, though at least we've been realistic ...
Personally, I've supported decisions that the current president has made, and had a little faith that he'd do what he said he would. Seeing that offensive military action is done in Iraq, it seems odd to still attempt to paint this president as a war president. If you're a complete pacifist, I understand the confusion, because pacifism is completely unrealistic in this day and age.

And if you don't see our actions in Libya as anything other than an attempt to achieve a necessary resolution while avoiding putting American boots on the ground, then I don't know what it would take to meet your approval. Is it that we remove our military from every foreign country, and never involve ourselves in other countries' affairs? I don't live in a world where that is possible. Sure it sounds great, but we don't live in a peaceful world. I'd like to live there, but that doesn't just make it happen. We don't exist in some sort of vacuum, that if we leave everyone alone, everything will turn out fine. Perhaps that was possible once, but not anymore.

No, Obama isn't perfect. I agree with you there. I also don't have access to the man's intelligence reports. I can only briefly fathom why he's made some of the decisions that he's made. I can't play armchair president with him about how to end a war. I know that he's doing it; Iraq is evidence of that. I hated what the Bush administration was doing, because it was obvious what the American people wanted, and it was obvious that the administration could care less. Ending the wars wasn't even on the table with them. Now that it is, I can give a little more leeway.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=321337#Comment_321337 2012-01-13T09:30:28-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 Flabyo http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1306 Discrediting a rival by pointing out he can speak French? Is that really a viable tactic in the States? You'd only see something like that in the Daily Mail over here, and no-one takes them ... Discrediting a rival by pointing out he can speak French?

Is that really a viable tactic in the States? You'd only see something like that in the Daily Mail over here, and no-one takes them seriously...]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=321338#Comment_321338 2012-01-13T09:35:38-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 RenThing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=155 @Jay Kay I think we'll have to agree to disagree with your definition of an "act of war". He has gotten flack for continuing things like GitMo, indefinite detention, and a host of ...
I think we'll have to agree to disagree with your definition of an "act of war".

He has gotten flack for continuing things like GitMo, indefinite detention, and a host of other issues on left-wing blogs and news sights. He's also removed waterboarding from the list of things Bush said were acceptable and made the military go back to the Army field manual for interrogating captured enemy soldiers and enemy combatants, he complied with the withdrawl from Iraq that Bush agreed to with that country and removed our combat prence there, and has been working toward decreasing our presence in Afghanistan in a way that won't A) completely fuck Afghanistan because us going in there in the first place created a problem and B) that won't make it seem like it was a complete waste of time (and, in many ways, it wasn't; Al'Queda as it existed in that country before Obama no longer exists).

I think your problem at the center of your "the left seems fine" argument is that you're lumping everyone who is liberal together in one bunch while not hearing what everyone who might be considered part of "the Left" is actually saying, because the people you are listening to are apparenlty not the same I'm listening to. Some people in the left are fine with what he said, others aren't, just like some people in the right didn't like the wars Bush got us into while others on the right were. Sweeping statements are flawed statements.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=321349#Comment_321349 2012-01-13T12:16:51-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 shannon.gilly.3 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=8549 @flaybo you'd be surprised. There's a rather strong anti-foreign mentality within the conservative base, particularly in small towns and rural areas in the southeast where those ads are targeted, ... Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=321367#Comment_321367 2012-01-13T15:33:43-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 Miranda's Eyes http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1443 @ Flabyo Sadly, the "he can speak French" charge was one used repeatedly by conservatives against John Kerry in the 2004 election. Also, the conservative howls when the French opposed the ... Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=321368#Comment_321368 2012-01-13T15:47:10-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 RenThing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=155 Santorum, Perry, Huntsman, and Gingrich all not going to be on VA's ballet. The theme of this election needs to be Yakkity Sax. Santorum, Perry, Huntsman, and Gingrich all not going to be on VA's ballet.

The theme of this election needs to be Yakkity Sax.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=321373#Comment_321373 2012-01-13T16:27:40-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 ScottBieser http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=477 @ government spy The withdrawal of American troops from Iraq happened on a timetable and under rules arranged by the civilian/collaborationist Iraqi government and the Bush Administration. In the ...
The withdrawal of American troops from Iraq happened on a timetable and under rules arranged by the civilian/collaborationist Iraqi government and the Bush Administration. In the weeks before the withdrawal, the Obama admin pleaded with the al-Maliki government to extend the liability-exemption agreement (making US soldiers exempt from personal legal liability for their actions there) which would permit a residual force to stay. Obama was denied.

And as others have pointed out here, Obama has doubled-down on the war in Afghanistan (more US soldiers have died there now during Obama's term than in the entire 8 years of the Bush administration), expanded it into Pakistan, has rained fiery hell on Yemen and Libya and seems primed to do more of the same in Syria and Iraq. Innocent men, women and children are being blown to bits every day with weapons my taxes paid for, and I want it to stop NOW, dammit, not when it's convenient for the neocons. And a lot of other people, in both parties, third parties, and independents, feel the same way I do about this.

Most of those who felt this way in 2008 voted for Obama. If they still think this is a vital issue, they won't vote for him in 2012 if they see a viable alternative on the ballot.

However, I don't think the GOP will nominate Paul. Whether Paul endorses the GOP winner or not, he will most likely retire from active politics, and let his son Rand carry on in his stead.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=321375#Comment_321375 2012-01-13T16:55:44-08:00 2012-01-13T17:02:23-08:00 Flabyo http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1306 I remember the 'freedom fries' thing, my favourite counter for that at the time (which was when I was a snarky student) was to point out that the US would've *lost* the war of independence if the ...
I just find it stunning in this world where global politics is dominant that the fact he might be a bit more 'in' with Europe is seen as a bad thing...

(interestingly, that BBC link is currently tagged as the 'most read' story on the BBC news site...)]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=321379#Comment_321379 2012-01-13T17:39:45-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 DavidLejeune http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4220 @ScottBieser: So you're saying that if Paul did get the Republican nomination you would vote for him over Obama purely on his anti-war stance (a stance that he would actually have little power to ... did get the Republican nomination you would vote for him over Obama purely on his anti-war stance (a stance that he would actually have little power to enact, as Congress could block reductions in the US military through budget measures, the same way they've been able to prevent the closure of Gitmo under Obama), and ignore his utterly, utterly batshit domestic agenda?]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=321407#Comment_321407 2012-01-14T02:45:17-08:00 2012-01-14T03:28:41-08:00 government spy http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6088 As far as Ron Paul goes, I have to say that I found this article quite illuminating. ...
http://www.timwise.org/2012/01/of-broken-clocks-presidential-candidates-and-the-confusion-of-certain-white-liberals/

(was typing on my phone, but now I got pissed off)

But what's funny is that while people can post detracting statements against the President, most liberals I know can accept that our president is not perfect. We realize that improvement is needed. Again, I'm not happy with everything the man has done, but I'm not willing to let a Republican back in the Oval Office. There is not a single anti-war Republican candidate that is actually electable.

From my experience, Ron Paul supporters can't accept criticism of their candidate, everything is a biased attack against the man. I think he has a few decent ideas, but that they're outnumbered by his ridiculous platform of isolationist ideas. The concept he's running on benefits a very small group of people, and I'm not one of them. I like that Ron Paul is anti-war. He's been consistent with that from the beginning. I also like his stance on the war in drugs. But that isn't enough. To vote for Paul would be voting for a world where we just have to hope that corporations do the right thing just because it's the right thing to do, and that's something corporations have shown they won't do. The man is against the Civil Rights Act, the EPA, the Dept. of Education, should I go on?

And don't get me started on Rand Paul. The man is willing to shut the government down anytime he doesn't get what he wants. Some governmental services are needed 24/7. He expects me to go to work and not get paid until him and his co-Partiers tantrums are over. Really? I'm supposed to work without pay for the good of the people, and you consider yourself anti-socialist? Thanks, Rand.

Some people think that our two party system is screwed up. Maybe it is. Or that our government is inefficient. Ok, I can agree with that. But I want to deal with the way things are, not the way I wish things were. I have to work with the system as-is, and I can't understand people that, if they can't get everything they want, then they want to tear everything down. I am a realist. I used to want to change everything. Now I work to do what I can; what is reasonably possible.

A third party candidate won't work. Sorry. It won't. We're too lazy for an actual revolution. It will not happen. You have to work with what we got. To me, that means voting for the guy who doesn't want to privatize my job. That's how simple it has come down for me.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=321453#Comment_321453 2012-01-14T13:06:38-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 nelzbub http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=10569 @ GovSpy-A sensible and realistic point of view. As much as I feel a revolution is needed you're right to be sceptical about it ever occurring and it is far better to spend your energy to "do ... As much as I feel a revolution is needed you're right to be sceptical about it ever occurring and it is far better to spend your energy to "do what I can: what is reasonably possible."
Cheers for your thoughts and I hope the bastards keep their privatising hands off your job.
@ everyone- you're running second only to Al Jazeera as my most sensible source of information regarding politics over there, many thanks.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=321472#Comment_321472 2012-01-14T16:20:04-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 RenThing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=155 @Nelzbub Thanks, but please remember that we each have our own biases.
Thanks, but please remember that we each have our own biases.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=321490#Comment_321490 2012-01-14T20:38:20-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 Jay Kay http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=814 My feeling is that despite all his flaws, Paul is still the only decent, rational, and least harmful candidate currently running right now. That sad fact is why I feel the political system of this ... Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=321492#Comment_321492 2012-01-14T20:50:15-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 Fishelle http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=8854 @Jay Kay Would you say Paul is more decent, rational, and less harmful than Huntsman? I don't mean to ask anything that seems loaded or anything of that nature, just curious because it seems that ... Would you say Paul is more decent, rational, and less harmful than Huntsman? I don't mean to ask anything that seems loaded or anything of that nature, just curious because it seems that the consensus among the people I've spoken to is that he's not bad, and it's a damn shame that there's no way he'll get the nomination. So I wonder what you think of him.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=321502#Comment_321502 2012-01-14T23:33:58-08:00 2012-01-14T23:50:25-08:00 DavidLejeune http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4220 @Jay Kay: I honestly can't see how a man who wants to dismantle the EPA, the FDA, and the Department of Education, make the US withdraw from the United Nations, introduce a second, gold based United ... make the US withdraw from the United Nations, introduce a second, gold based United States currency, and believes that property rights supersede civil rights could possibly be less damaging than Obama. Or even Romney, for that matter. If he were able to enact even half of his agenda he'd be making both the United States and the world a worse place to live.

The most likely scenario of a Paul presidency is that he vetoes every single piece of legislation that crosses his desk, Congress promptly overturns his veto, and since he'll have alienated both houses of Congress he'll be unable to do anything, doing irreparable damage to the reputation of the Executive Branch in the process.

(Edited to use better link)]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=321576#Comment_321576 2012-01-15T15:03:22-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 DavidLejeune http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4220 God Bless Stephen Colbert God Bless Stephen Colbert]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=321579#Comment_321579 2012-01-15T16:41:17-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 Jay Kay http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=814 @Fishelle -- Honestly, I don't think I really heard of Huntsman until now. Most of his positions seem okay enough, I suppose. The only one that really bothers me is the foreign policy part--any ...
@DavidLejeune -- Well, those organizations like the EPA, FDA, and DOE are ineffectual at best and inherently corrupt at worst; the United Nations can be blamed for it's own set of atrocities and communication and technologies make such a top-down organization for globalization antiquated; and the massive amounts of inflation and debt makes our fiat currency seem more and more like a massive joke and such a system only exists to keep the wealth at the top level rich and the poor at the bottom.

I'm of the opinion that these last few decades of these organizations' history and their repeated failures at their job prove that these top-down, government mandated systems just do not work.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=321584#Comment_321584 2012-01-15T17:20:01-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 oddbill http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4272 Well, those organizations like the EPA, FDA, and DOE are ineffectual at best and inherently corrupt at worst Sorry, I hate stepping into these discussions as they are mostly useless places for ... Well, those organizations like the EPA, FDA, and DOE are ineffectual at best and inherently corrupt at worst

Sorry, I hate stepping into these discussions as they are mostly useless places for people who have no intention of conversing to spout their own political opinions at each other, but this statement comes from ignorance.

In my own lifetime I've seen the air quality in urban centers in the US improve dramatically (thanks EPA!). For an example of what a city in a country without a functional EPA looks like, google images of air quality in Beijing.

You know how meat, vegetables and dairy across the whole United States is consistently reliably healthy and disease/bacteria free? You don't even really think much about that, because it is so commonplace. The FDA did that. NOT some kind of free market. The FDA.

I don't have factual or first-hand experience of the DOE to draw on right now, and I'm not going to hang around this thread long enough to pursue an argument about it, so I'll leave that one aside.

Jay Kay, I do not mean offense, but your libertarianism is lazy and uninformed.

Also, we are not suffering from "massive amounts of inflation". We just factually aren't.

such a system only exists to keep the wealth at the top level rich and the poor at the bottom


So, you favor a redistributive system that would move wealth from the top to the bottom? (Do you even see what you've said at the end there? It surely doesn't mesh with your other stances.)

I think you should think deeper about these issues before declaring opinions.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=321592#Comment_321592 2012-01-15T19:24:44-08:00 2012-01-15T19:50:49-08:00 Jay Kay http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=814 You know what, in one way you are right--I can definitely be better informed. My political ideas--such as they are, since for me it's really just an extension of how I would want to be treated as a ... Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=321594#Comment_321594 2012-01-15T19:47:12-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 andycon http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=10109 Huntsman's out. Which is kinda good? in that he seemed the most sane of the candidates. Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=321596#Comment_321596 2012-01-15T19:50:34-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 Jay Kay http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=814 @andycon It's good that one of the more sane candidates is out?
It's good that one of the more sane candidates is out?]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=321598#Comment_321598 2012-01-15T19:53:16-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 andycon http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=10109 in that I want Obama to win so the crazier the candidates that are left, the easier it is to wipe the floor with them Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=321599#Comment_321599 2012-01-15T20:10:32-08:00 2012-01-15T20:13:29-08:00 Jay Kay http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=814 Ah. I see. I think I see a problem with that logic, though--a lot of the Republican candidates are looking pretty nutty right now, but that's because they're trying to appeal to their base so ...
I think I see a problem with that logic, though--a lot of the Republican candidates are looking pretty nutty right now, but that's because they're trying to appeal to their base so that they can become the official nominee. Once someone becomes the nominee, that person always moves closer to the center, because they're trying to appeal to more people.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=321602#Comment_321602 2012-01-15T20:31:30-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 andycon http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=10109 I agree with that, I just fear for some/most/all/i dunno that they are reaching that point where they wont be able to pull back when its all said and done. Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=321610#Comment_321610 2012-01-15T21:40:19-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 James Cunningham http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2925 Regarding the EPA- I grew up in the 70s. You don't get to say bad things about their existence. I remember making a game of holding my breath when we drove over the Androscoggin river, in Lewiston ...
The EPA stays. Anyone saying we can live in a US without them can damn well travel back in time to the 70s (or earlier, if they're feeling ambitious) until such a time as they learn better.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=321612#Comment_321612 2012-01-15T22:16:40-08:00 2012-01-15T22:17:07-08:00 Alan Tyson http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1299 I don't have any direct experience with the EPA one way or another, but a federal organization whose sole goal is to improve the conditions of the places where human beings live... that sounds like a ...
So... Hunstman bailed. I'm kinda sad about that. I didn't agree with even a quarter of what he said, but I could at least see how he got all of his opinions, and respect how he put them forth to the public. The rest of these psychos... well...

Look. I don't WANT to be part of a system where you have to pick one side or the other of an arbitrarily-designated "center," and support the top dog on that side no matter what he or she actually believes, just so that the other side can't win. Computers work in binary. We're human beings. We can, and thus should, do better. Politics is fascinating, and kinda fun to watch, but at the end of the day, we're looking at people who will decide how we'll live the next couple years of our lives. And when you ignore all the other bullshit, ignore all their personalities and pasts and projected goals, and just focus on what you know about them and what they'll do for/to us... none of it looks too great. None of it. I'm not sure there's a single person who has even a 1% chance of becoming President of the United States that I'd be genuinely happy with actually attaining that position (not, mind you, content, relieved, or merely alright, with any of those people becoming President). I have a feeling that's not an uncommon opinion in my country right now.

Which seems incredibly wrong to me.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=321613#Comment_321613 2012-01-15T22:40:20-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 oddbill http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4272 Really, it's been this way forever. You are all just rather young still, so the familiarity of it hasn't yet sunk in. Everyone has always felt elections were choosing the least bad option. Every four ...
In fact the way it works is pretty decent. Every four years you pick the candidate that moves the various arrows on the policy meters a little bit in the direction you prefer. Nobody gets what they want, but the arrows do move, and over time some things get better, some get worse, and life goes on.

Sometimes people realize this and decide that it is hopeless. But it isn't, especially in areas that matter where efforts can focus. Civil rights was a huge improvement with decades of hard fighting to move those arrows.

Sometimes people like to pretend that it's different, and that by electing one person they can throw the arrows all the way to the other side of the scale immediately, and when that doesn't happen they feel that they've been cheated somehow and declare they will swear off voting. That is comically counterproductive, as it cedes influence to others who likely have opposing agendas.

The arrows move slowly, as they have to, to avoid destructive chaos. But, as a better thinker than I am once said, the arc bends toward justice.

People will encourage you to vote your conscience. I don't, actually. I encourage you to vote for the electable candidate most likely to move the important arrows the way you'd like to see them move. That means that if you have a two party dominated system, as we do, and only two candidates have any real chance of winning, as they do, that you don't throw your vote away on an idealistic third party, but instead use it to put the one of the two closest to your stances into power.

And if you think there is no difference between the two major parties except name, which is another thing people have been saying for decades, just imagine things like: would Al Gore have invaded Iraq? Would John McCain have passed any kind of Universal Health Care bill?]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=321614#Comment_321614 2012-01-15T23:06:41-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 andycon http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=10109 @Oddbill, I agree, I may be only 25 and thus still young in the grand scheme of things, but I grew up being taught that you cant always get what you want but what little you can carve out far out ...
I agree, I may be only 25 and thus still young in the grand scheme of things, but I grew up being taught that you cant always get what you want but what little you can carve out far out weighs nothing at all.

I'm voting for Obama again this year because he saved my life. If he hadn't passed that god-awful socialist-commie-nazi Health Care bill I would not have been able to stay on my parents health insurance and thus wouldn't of been able to afford my stay in the hospital earlier this year because of pre-existing conditions. Was the bill that passed the one that should have been? No, it was far to stripped down, but for fucks sake it was still a million time better than nothing at all.

I don't agree with all of his policies but like Oddbill said, he is the only one that is willing/wanting to move those arrows even a fraction of a space in the direction I want them to go.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=321615#Comment_321615 2012-01-15T23:07:15-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 DavidLejeune http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4220 There's been a marked trend for the arrows to be moving to the right no matter who is in for the past twenty-thirty years, though. Obama's pretty much a Nixon Republican, when you get right down to ... Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=321618#Comment_321618 2012-01-15T23:36:43-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 oddbill http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4272 But a Nixon Republican is actually to the LEFT of where the current Republican party is. Going towards republicanism of that era is actually moving towards the left. It isn't all the way past the ... Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=321672#Comment_321672 2012-01-16T09:51:07-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 roadscum http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=7712 Russia today seems to like your lovely Mr Ron Paul, they frequently say nice things about him. That hysterical laughter? that would be me, in between sobs. nice things about him.

That hysterical laughter? that would be me, in between sobs.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=321712#Comment_321712 2012-01-16T17:37:44-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 DavidLejeune http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4220 @oddbill: That's my point, though. 40 years on (16 with Democrat Administrations), Nixon should be to the RIGHT of the current GOP. Instead Nixon's policies would be considered radical liberalism or ... Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=321805#Comment_321805 2012-01-17T17:54:27-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 RenThing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=155 Rick Perry, Santorum, and Newt Gingrich are all, no really, really really, not going to appear on the Virginia ballot. *sad trombone* Wah wah wah waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah. Rick Perry, Santorum, and Newt Gingrich are all, no really, really really, not going to appear on the Virginia ballot.

*sad trombone* Wah wah wah waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=321935#Comment_321935 2012-01-19T08:32:12-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 Alan Tyson http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1299 Rick Perry drops out of the race. FINALLY. Rick Perry drops out of the race.

FINALLY.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=321938#Comment_321938 2012-01-19T10:00:48-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 RenThing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=155 @Anchorbeard "I know when it's time to make a strategic retreat." Really? Pawlenty made a strategic retreat, you were too stupid to bow out when you got dead last in New Hampshire ...
"I know when it's time to make a strategic retreat."

Really? Pawlenty made a strategic retreat, you were too stupid to bow out when you got dead last in New Hampshire and it took Virginia telling you to get stuffed before you came to the understanding that, no, you didn't actually stand a chance in hell.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=321955#Comment_321955 2012-01-19T14:15:05-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 andycon http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=10109 yeah but it gave him a couple more weeks of not having to find a real job. If people are still stupid enough to donate to me even though I am dead last, I am riding that gravy train to the every ...
If people are still stupid enough to donate to me even though I am dead last, I am riding that gravy train to the every end]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=321956#Comment_321956 2012-01-19T14:40:03-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 tedcroland http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2106 Considering Gingrich's inevitable defeat after his ex wife's character "assassination" (meaning revealing his actual character to the American People), I'm thinking Romney is a bit of a ...
I hate the world.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=321959#Comment_321959 2012-01-19T15:15:30-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 KeeperofManyNames http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=3394 You never know, Gingrich might get votes from the poly and kink communities now. I mean... not serious votes, but at this point it's tempting just to vote based on what will result in the highest ... serious votes, but at this point it's tempting just to vote based on what will result in the highest humor quotient.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=321983#Comment_321983 2012-01-19T20:08:58-08:00 2012-01-19T20:17:05-08:00 johnjones http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1052 I'll admit that I'm somewhat disappointed that Obama and the Democrats weren't able to accomplish more than they did, especially early in 2009 when they had a majority in the House and a ...
The President: [In the Oval Office, Obama is watching the Republican Congress attack the Democrats from the huge throne room window] As you can see, my young opponent, your friends have failed. Now witness the firepower of this fully ARMED and OPERATIONAL Republican government!
[the President hits the comlink switch on his chair]
The President: Vote at will, Speaker!
Speaker Boehner: [In the Capital's voting room, a group of hooded Congressmen starts priming the House Committees - devices so advanced they can be trained on government agencies, such as the Department of Education. A series of tones signify that the voting is ready] Vote!
[a second gunner hits a switch, and a huge laser beam roars down a firing shaft. The outer surface of the Capital shows a huge laser dish start to develop, and then a titanic laser beam moves out from the Capital's superlaser. It hits the EPA and vaporizes the huge agency in a single vote]]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=321996#Comment_321996 2012-01-19T22:34:34-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 DavidLejeune http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4220 I'll admit that I'm somewhat disappointed that Obama and the Democrats weren't able to accomplish more than they did, especially early in 2009 when they had a majority in the House and a ... I'll admit that I'm somewhat disappointed that Obama and the Democrats weren't able to accomplish more than they did, especially early in 2009 when they had a majority in the House and a supermajority in the SenateYeah, about that 'supermajority...'

Honestly I'm of the opinion that even after losing the supermajority the dems should've called the repub's bluff on the filibuster threats. I don't think any sitting republican senator is capable of filibustering for more than a couple of hours. You're not allowed to sit down, you're only allowed to drink water, and you can't have food. Bernie Sanders may have managed an eight hour filibuster, but he's (let's face it) a bit of a nutter, and has really strong convictions. I doubt any of the current Republicans are the same.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=322039#Comment_322039 2012-01-20T08:48:00-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 oldhat http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=75 It should be noted that I now owe Anchorbeard $5. I was convinced that Perry would be bullheaded enough to at least stick around for this one. Good to see that the debates are no less insane and ...
Good to see that the debates are no less insane and chaotic (you can tell it's chaos because you can hear pigs being slaughtered) without him.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=322047#Comment_322047 2012-01-20T10:08:00-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 Alan Tyson http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1299 I think it works like this - when one crazy person drops out of the race, their remaining crazy gets copy-pasted and distributed equally among the rest of the candidates. Even as we speak, Newt ...
I don't think the opposite works as well. I don't think anyone got saner when Huntsman dropped out.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=322268#Comment_322268 2012-01-23T07:04:58-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 Alan Tyson http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1299 Scared. Newt's Iran Fantasies
Newt's Iran Fantasies]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=322386#Comment_322386 2012-01-24T07:34:59-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 Jay Kay http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=814 So, apparently Santorum is trying to do a fundraising thing called the "Conservatives Unite Moneybomb." I think we can all see where this is going. There has to be someone in Santorum's ... we can all see where this is going.

There has to be someone in Santorum's employ who realized this and decided not to say anything and is currently laughing his ass off.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=322387#Comment_322387 2012-01-24T07:36:38-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 oldhat http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=75 Anyone see that hilarious slap fight last night? Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=322389#Comment_322389 2012-01-24T07:43:16-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 RenThing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=155 @oldhat Wut
Wut]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=322398#Comment_322398 2012-01-24T08:59:29-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 Flabyo http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1306 @Jay - I'd like to think there's someone in Santorum's employ that suggested that knowing full well what they were doing, but sadly I think it's another case of Hanlon's Razor in action. Something ... Hanlon's Razor in action.

Something that came up on a gaming podcast I listen to that might be fun is that there's a new Grand Theft Auto out this year (most likely). The Housers are not people to shy away from satiring things like the election, and even the early trailer shows they're being political with it as it has scenes of house foreclosures and immigrant workers being sprayed by crop dusters.

What if they dropped this game, full of social commentary, right in the middle of the election campaign? Given the usual release dates for games, what if they dropped it on election day?

Could be amusing, if not particularly influential.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=322506#Comment_322506 2012-01-25T09:45:21-08:00 2012-01-25T09:48:51-08:00 government spy http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6088 I think Newt should be disqualified because we can't have a first lady that looks like she was poisoned with the Joker Serum (or whatever that stuff is called). (I know it's bad taste, and the ...
(I know it's bad taste, and the jokes been said a million times, but I keep getting creeped out by her, seriously)]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=322527#Comment_322527 2012-01-25T14:10:27-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 RenThing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=155 @gov_spy Calista = Stepford Wife
Calista = Stepford Wife]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=322566#Comment_322566 2012-01-26T05:02:47-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 government spy http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6088 I thought Stepford Wives were supposed to be at least marginally attractive? Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=322592#Comment_322592 2012-01-26T09:16:15-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 RenThing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=155 Can you offer any other theory for why she looks like a robot? Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=322597#Comment_322597 2012-01-26T09:51:30-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 manglr http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6038 I always thought she looked like a Reptiloid of some sort. I can easily imagine her swallowing a rodent whole on camera during a debate. Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=322598#Comment_322598 2012-01-26T10:04:57-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 RenThing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=155 Now that you've mentioned reptiloids in a political thread I expect to see XalbaXalba show up here at any moment. Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=322625#Comment_322625 2012-01-26T12:43:13-08:00 2012-01-26T12:43:25-08:00 Alan Tyson http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1299 As with all things, blame oldhat As with all things, blame oldhat]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=322628#Comment_322628 2012-01-26T13:22:09-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 tedcroland http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2106 My fav Xalba moment was when he started this really bizarre thread about how there were giants and 1000 year old people in the old testament ancient aliens thing, and Warren shut it down with ...
Back to tricks. A lot can change in a week, and it's looking like the shoe's not dropped. Romney has gone through as much of a character transformation with his financials being released. Then again, deference for the superrich might sleaze him into office. I'm amazed that more republicans are abstaining or writing in at this point. If I were a republican I would be pissed. Oh well.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=322635#Comment_322635 2012-01-26T15:01:22-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 RenThing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=155 That one was pretty good. When even Warren looks at you and goes, "Yeah....ok...." and slowly backs away... Well, Gingrich looks like he's picking up steam in Florida which I'm sure is ...
Well, Gingrich looks like he's picking up steam in Florida which I'm sure is making Romney pull a David Tennant-esque "What? WHAT?!" Everything I've read about the GOP insiders is that they're running around like the sky is falling because none of them want Gingrich to get the nominee, in part because not a single person who worked with him has come out for him (many, instead, have come out against him AND backed Romney at the same time) and because current estimations is that if Gingrich wins the nomination then Obama is going to crush him due to Gingrich's wild unfavorability among his own party and the Left, only the majority of the GOP aren't listening to their "DO NOT WANT!" message.

My honest guess? Romney's in for a hell of a fight. Yeah, he'll pick up delegates in VA for free since it's just him and Paul there but it doesn't really look like his current attack strategy, painting Gingrich as a narcissistic, ego-centric bastard, is working (partially because I think the average GOPer likes that in a candidate) where as Romney is getting hammered by everyone for his finances and his work for Bain, things much more unfavorable in the current climate.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=322710#Comment_322710 2012-01-27T13:56:29-08:00 2012-01-27T13:57:17-08:00 DavidLejeune http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4220 'I believe in an America where millions of Americans believe in an America that’s the America millions of Americans believe in. That’s the America I love.' - Mitt Romney. It's almost ... Mitt Romney.

It's almost non-Euclidean.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=322716#Comment_322716 2012-01-27T14:33:42-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 taphead http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2284 I'm pretty sure that's actually a zen koan. Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=322746#Comment_322746 2012-01-27T21:37:58-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 ScottS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=370 I'm pretty sure Mitt Romney just likes to say "millions" ... although it's a good bet that he doesn't consider millions to be all that much. Much like his speaker fees. Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=322756#Comment_322756 2012-01-28T00:52:40-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 G. Foyle http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=3863 @taphead "What is the sound of a million one handed americans believing in america"?
"What is the sound of a million one handed americans believing in america"?]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=322805#Comment_322805 2012-01-28T20:54:46-08:00 2012-01-28T20:54:58-08:00 James Cunningham http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2925 G. Foyle- FAP! Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=322807#Comment_322807 2012-01-28T22:09:59-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 StefanJ http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=961 Those of y'all who haven't read it yet, I highly recommend Warren's interview about space travel and Newt Gingrich on Vice: Deathmatch on Mars: An Interview with Warren Ellis on Newt Gingrich, ...
Deathmatch on Mars: An Interview with Warren Ellis on Newt Gingrich, Space Realism and Future America

You are the wind beneath my freaking wings, Warren:
For every bunch of dubiously photogenic fetal-alcohol-syndrome cases from New Jersey who get on the TV for ten minutes, there are ten times as many people at MIT inventing the future.
]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=322837#Comment_322837 2012-01-29T10:25:58-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 RenThing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=155 *sniff* I miss him. Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=322873#Comment_322873 2012-01-30T02:40:50-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 taphead http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2284 what is this I don't even
]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=322880#Comment_322880 2012-01-30T06:50:34-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 Alan Tyson http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1299 Please tell me that's not a real Newsweek cover. That looks like it came from the Onion. Also, come on Newt. At least look like you're TRYING to sneak up on ol' Mitt. Didn't they teach you ...
Also, come on Newt. At least look like you're TRYING to sneak up on ol' Mitt. Didn't they teach you anything at Space Ranger Academy?]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=322889#Comment_322889 2012-01-30T07:26:36-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 government spy http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6088 Et Tu, Newte? Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=322902#Comment_322902 2012-01-30T10:22:24-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 brittanica http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2296 I've been of-age to vote in the past two elections, and decided to skip them. I may have taken away the wrong lesson from my dad when he told me as a kid, "Don't trust any politicians." ... I have a lot of friends that are hardcore Paul supporters (literally- some of them are in metal bands), so I'm trying to understand that guy... what I've taken away from looking at his stances is that there are good ideas there, but they rely on everyone to be good and just and doing the right thing all the time, yes? Because I don't have enough faith in people to think that'll work.

This is a confusing year to try to get interested in politics, isn't it?]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=322906#Comment_322906 2012-01-30T11:06:01-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 RenThing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=155 @Brittanica You've pretty much hit one of the major flaws of libertarian views from my perspective, in that they would only honestly function in a world that has nothing to do with our current ...
You've pretty much hit one of the major flaws of libertarian views from my perspective, in that they would only honestly function in a world that has nothing to do with our current reality. Is Medicare a great program? No, but Paul's idea of scrapping the whole thing and relying on people's charity to replace it (when people have very little charity and money to give to charity these days) would pretty much mean the declining health and deaths of thousands of people across the entire US. I find such an idea repugnant.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=322907#Comment_322907 2012-01-30T11:20:02-08:00 2012-01-30T12:00:07-08:00 government spy http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6088 There's the concept of Paul's deregulation of corporations that I don't like either. His concept is "If you don't like that corporations' policies and tactics, then don't shop there. That's ... liked supporting, and now you have no where else to shop locally. I might hate Wal-Mart, but if it ends up costing me too much gas, and I have to spend so much more to buy the same products, I'll end up shopping there despite my abhorrence.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=322910#Comment_322910 2012-01-30T11:52:26-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 RenThing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=155 @government_spy That policy is also linked to his reasoning why the CRA needs to be revoked; he thinks that if people are allowed to be racist assholes then other people will simply not support ...
That policy is also linked to his reasoning why the CRA needs to be revoked; he thinks that if people are allowed to be racist assholes then other people will simply not support those businesses, the Benevolent Hand of the Free Markey(tm) will work its magic, and the asshole businesses owners will be out of business. The problem with that is what happens when you're an asshole business owner in a small town and you're the only shop? Paul would tell someone being discriminated against to just open their own business but that's not practical for most people.

He just seems like he wants to take the US back to some mythical ideal of the 1950's.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=322914#Comment_322914 2012-01-30T12:04:41-08:00 2012-01-30T12:06:25-08:00 government spy http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6088 I was just about to add that, but I got into a religious discussion with one of my orderlies that took precedence. What is with this take our country back bullshit? Take it back to where you can ...
What is with this take our country back bullshit? Take it back to where you can use racial slurs in public instead of behind closed doors? I might be white, but I'm not rich and I'm not old, so I'll never be part of that in-crowd. I see a lot of disgruntled suburban white guys that feel like they're owed something. That black people and Mexican people took all their money, and got something out of Equal Opportunity, and now they want what's "theirs".

I'm sick of that fucking attitude.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=322929#Comment_322929 2012-01-30T13:19:22-08:00 2012-01-30T13:19:35-08:00 Finagle http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5254 I have yet to see one of the debate moderators ask that question. I'd love to see that. Santorum/Gingrich/Paul/Romney: "Blah blah take our country back!" Debate moderator: "Can ...
Santorum/Gingrich/Paul/Romney: "Blah blah take our country back!"

Debate moderator: "Can you please tell us exactly who or what you're taking it back from?"]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=322932#Comment_322932 2012-01-30T14:10:44-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 RenThing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=155 @Finagle - None of them have the balls. Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=322981#Comment_322981 2012-01-31T00:37:28-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 Flabyo http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1306 @Finagle - The Europeans, apparently. I love the concept that they're accusing Obama of 'trying to turn America into a European Socialist state', when I don't think many Europeans would think ...
I love the concept that they're accusing Obama of 'trying to turn America into a European Socialist state', when I don't think many Europeans would think their countries are very socialist right now...]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=322987#Comment_322987 2012-01-31T03:30:33-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 manglr http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6038 And of course 'the take the country back to the 1950's' crowd never seem to acknowledge that some of the legitimate prosperity of the era was based upon the groundwork of programs laid out in the New ... Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=322992#Comment_322992 2012-01-31T05:17:27-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 curb http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1334 @ Flabyo. I certainly wouldn't describe Britain as a socialist country right now. A little analysis from the beeb on the subject here. here.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=322999#Comment_322999 2012-01-31T07:56:52-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 johnjones http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1052 Also, wasn't the maximum tax rate something like 90% in the 50s as opposed to the 35% or so that is now? Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=323008#Comment_323008 2012-01-31T08:54:26-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 RenThing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=155 @Johnjones I'm not sure it was that high, but it was higher than it is now (which meakes me want to throttle those "Taxed Enough Already" Tea Party clowns who, once again, prove they ...
I'm not sure it was that high, but it was higher than it is now (which meakes me want to throttle those "Taxed Enough Already" Tea Party clowns who, once again, prove they don't know what they're talking about).]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=323273#Comment_323273 2012-02-03T08:57:25-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 ZJVavrek http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4243 @RenThing It was that high. The top Marginal rate, I should note, which means that of every dollar past the first 400,000, 91 cents went to the government. Details.
It was that high. The top Marginal rate, I should note, which means that of every dollar past the first 400,000, 91 cents went to the government.


Details.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=323282#Comment_323282 2012-02-03T11:12:11-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 StefanJ http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=961 The whole 35% marginal tax rate thing is a joke for the very rich anyway. The vast majority of their income are dividends and capital gains, which are taxed at 15% or 25%. You want to make the ...
The vast majority of their income are dividends and capital gains, which are taxed at 15% or 25%.

You want to make the 1% squeal like raped pigs? Offer to lower the top marginal income tax rate to 30% "to help small business owners," but eliminate the whole privileged position for dividends and capital gains. Make it all count as salary.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=323620#Comment_323620 2012-02-07T20:11:16-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 RenThing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=155 The fuck is going on here? Three primaries tonight, Missouri, Minnesota, and Colorado and Santorum is kicking the shit out of Romney in two and TIED with him in the third.
Three primaries tonight, Missouri, Minnesota, and Colorado and Santorum is kicking the shit out of Romney in two and TIED with him in the third.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=323624#Comment_323624 2012-02-07T21:53:15-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 James Cunningham http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2925 Wow. Santorum. Just... I mean... What!?
I mean...

What!?]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=323628#Comment_323628 2012-02-07T23:14:59-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 RenThing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=155 You've fucking got me, mate, and I follow this stuff for fun. It's enough to make me sit down, flick my finger over my lips and go "Abbitty abbitty abbitty" Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=323630#Comment_323630 2012-02-08T00:07:36-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 JP Carpenter http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2485 ...and even the bloody BBC is doing the whole 'surging Santorum' headlines schtick. Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=323638#Comment_323638 2012-02-08T03:17:25-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 Finagle http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5254 Gingrich, Paul and Santorum will pop up now and then in states like this to give some meaningless victories. It just weakens the party by pulling support away from Romney, who still *will* be the ... Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=323682#Comment_323682 2012-02-08T10:34:24-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 G. Foyle http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=3863 Ech. "Surging Santorum" is a mental image I could've done without. . . . Santorum" is a mental image I could've done without. . . .]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=323690#Comment_323690 2012-02-08T11:13:35-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 RenThing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=155 We share the pain. Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=323699#Comment_323699 2012-02-08T12:07:04-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 KeeperofManyNames http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=3394 Think how we few sane Pennsylvanians feel. It's a very Victor Frankenstein feeling: we spawned this monster, after all. This is the cream of the crop here in the state that's trying to declare this ... Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=323722#Comment_323722 2012-02-08T16:20:13-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 Exploder http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=488 It's worth noting that voter turnout in most of the primaries where a black sheep candidate has pulled it out is extraordinarily low because so many people are disappointed in the options, leaving ... Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=323736#Comment_323736 2012-02-08T20:33:07-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 RenThing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=155 @Exploder Yeah, but I've heard that Republican primaries, in general, are pretty low turnout, although if the last few have been even lower than that then that says something about the quality of ...
Yeah, but I've heard that Republican primaries, in general, are pretty low turnout, although if the last few have been even lower than that then that says something about the quality of the candidates.]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=324096#Comment_324096 2012-02-13T04:04:03-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 Flabyo http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1306 I guess this kinda fits here more than anywhere else... How to get fired from Fox
How to get fired from Fox]]> Laurel and Hardy meet the USA ELECTION THREAD http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10429&Focus=325227#Comment_325227 2012-02-24T12:26:45-08:00 2013-05-21T15:30:54-07:00 Neila http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5582 @Flabyo I thought Ron Paul's whole thing was "hey guys, anarchy might be fun"... politics is so hard to follow D: