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1. •  
     CommentAuthoroddbill
   • CommentTimeFeb 23rd 2012

    (10493.161)
   @Fishelle:
   
   

   I haven't ever really understood why it would offend someone if they think it's nonsense, because then it doesn't really matter, does it?

   
   
   I know you are done talking about it, but I'd ask you to consider how uncomfortable you are made by people questioning the appropriateness of your convictions with regard to this practice. That is what it feels like when someone devalues your core beliefs. That is what you are doing when you posthumously "baptize" people. You are basically saying the whole lived adult life of a human being is less worthy of consideration than the small bit of personal satisfaction you get from including their name on a list of potential inductees into the Mormon concept of heaven. It is profoundly insulting.
   
   One of the best hopes a person can have is that they are remembered well for who they were. I can tell you as a non-Mormon that I for one, and I am willing to bet that most non-Mormons who have any sort of convictions about the nature of being, would be deeply, deeply offended to have you coming along after our ability to disagree is silenced and inducting us, even provisionally, into your faith.
   
   I do think it is silly and ultimately meaningless. I also find it very offensive. Those two things are not mutually exclusive reactions. No one can or should stop you from doing it, as it causes no actual harm to anyone, any more than me standing on the street and declaring passersby to be baptized Catholics would. But it would sure be a good reason for a lot of people to correctly agree that I was being a self-aggrandizing and obnoxious jerk.
2. •  
     CommentAuthorjohnjones
   • CommentTimeFeb 23rd 2012

    (10493.162)
   @ Fishelle
   
   As a Christian, I tend to apply Christian doctrine to these situations. Specifically, I apply Matthew 7:12 "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets." So, would you want someone who is Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Catholic, what have you, "baptizing" you as one of their faith? I'm guessing that no, you would not. I get it. Baptizing the dead is a essentially a gesture of compassion and generosity. It's a way to "save the unsaveable." However, to me it seems to violate the free choices that the dead made in life, so I disagree with the practice.
3. •  
     CommentAuthorBen Gwalchmai
   • CommentTimeFeb 23rd 2012

    (10493.163)
   
   
   From the mind of Hannah Richards
4. •  
     CommentAuthorFoamhead
   • CommentTimeFeb 24th 2012 edited

    (10493.164)
   Comic-Con Episode IV: A Fan's Hope Official Trailer - A Morgan Spurlock Movie
   
   
5. • CommentAuthorshannon.gilly.3
   • CommentTimeFeb 24th 2012

    (10493.165)
   to the wonderful theological discussion participants:
   
   As a recovering fundamentalist evangelical protestant Christian who grew up in a mixed Catholic/Southern Baptist household, I can see where Fishelle is coming from on this. it's a different concept of death and eternity. from what is considered the "mainline" Christian viewpoint, there's no time gap between death and eternity. you kick it, coroner calls you a corpse, you head to heaven, hell, or purgatory, based entirely on decisions made during your lifetime (unless you're in the Calvinist group, then it doesn't really matter, since everything is preordained, your actions in life were a reflection of God's predetermined plan and you end up where God intended you to go). The LDS concept of death has a time gap, wherein souls have left their physical shells, but have yet to move on to eternity. They're dead, but there's still choices to be made. One could theoretically, post mortem, realize that the Mormons got it right and convert, so to speak. So the church, hoping to aid those who might have died before making up their minds or who found enlightenment in the between time, came up with a ritual to address the needs of those who've left.
   In practice, it's little different from the liturgical protestant and orthodox practice of baptizing infants, and in my mind, no more or less offensive. The idea on the liturgical Christian side of the equation is "well, what if they die before they get old enough to accept these beliefs themselves? should we just let them burn in eternity due to their innate sinfulness? No! Let's baptize them just in case."
   For the Mormons, baptism is just as vital to a person's ability to enter heaven, so rather than risk preventing a soul from getting the best outcome in eternity, they came up with something that solves that problem, just like Christians who moved baptism from being a conscious adult action to something done to infants as early as possible.
   
   As for being offended: guys, take a long, hard look at this thread. its very existence would probably constitute a grave offense to most of the people Fishelle grew up with. I know that many of my childhood and college friends would be at an utter loss for words for about thirty seconds before they started screaming about how offensive every last entry is (except, of course, the entries downing the Mormon faith; they're usually all about demeaning that "cult," and would gleefully add all sorts of half baked facts in for fun), and then would promptly start collecting pitchforks and funding republican super PACS to ensure that the evil would be promptly stomped out. that flies like a rock around here people: if it offends you, find out why and learn from it. there's probably something useful to be gleaned.
   
   Having said all that, perhaps we take Fishelle's cue about how she was done talking about it and drop the subject before the urethral attack maggots show up. to that end, I give you music from one of my favorite local bands:
   
   and not loud enough, but them again:
   
6. •  
     CommentAuthorHorrible Warning Si
   • CommentTimeFeb 24th 2012

    (10493.166)
   Maggots are primed.
   
   Religious debate stops here. I appreciate you're all playing very nice and it's not about to turn into flamey-wamey shame, nonetheless. This ain't the place, take it elsewhere.
   
   Yes, I am a censorial monster. No, I don't care.
7. • CommentAuthorkeyofsilence
   • CommentTimeFeb 24th 2012

    (10493.167)
   In order to usher in a new era of religious peace in Whitechapel, I present a monkey pissing in his own mouth.
   
   
8. • CommentAuthorFlabyo
   • CommentTimeFeb 24th 2012

    (10493.168)
   Lets all take the UK citizenship test!
   
   If you score less than 75%, you can't come in!
   
   I scored 17/24, so, erm, I'm not eligible to be a citizen of my own country.
   
   Oops.
9. • CommentAuthorKradlum
   • CommentTimeFeb 24th 2012

    (10493.169)
   I got 14/24. I demand to be deported to somewhere nicer.
   I can't see what relevance knowing the answers to most of those questions has to being a UK citizen.
10. • CommentAuthorFlabyo
    • CommentTimeFeb 24th 2012

     (10493.170)
    @Kradlum - I get the impression it's really just to get potential citizens to read the book. By asking questions on it's content they're making sure they're at least tried to digest whats in it.
11. •  
      CommentAuthorsneak046
    • CommentTimeFeb 24th 2012 edited

     (10493.171)
    From the Dell Visual Innovators series comes this film about 'renowned photographer Clayton Soros'.
    
    [vimeo link so no embed unfortunately].
    
    Watch until the end.
    
    Part of me thinks the whole thing is some kind of Chris Morris like pisstake, but then I remember that we are now living in a world of post-irony...
    
    [edited to add that this has been confirmed as a hoax]
    
    (15 out of 24 on that UK test..)
12. •  
      CommentAuthorJP Carpenter
    • CommentTimeFeb 24th 2012

     (10493.172)
    @Flabyo - that site isn't the border agency one and doesn't necessarily represent the actual test. I think they're using a particularly obscure set of questions in order to flog their third party non-official guide to passing it...
    
    FWIW, the last time I did that though I scored so low I'm surprised I'm not in Gitmo now...
13. • CommentAuthorbadbear
    • CommentTimeFeb 24th 2012

     (10493.173)
    @flabyo
    
    Holy crap that's difficult. No wonder my friend studied for the exam so hard. I got 11 out of 24! 11! AND I suspect that is mostly by luck rather than actual judgement. I'm not sure how I manage to function in this country with so little knowledge of it...
14. •  
      CommentAuthorAtomicSloth
    • CommentTimeFeb 24th 2012

     (10493.174)
    Going through the answers after I got 12/24 and they're obviously geared towards making even the most academic patriot fail.
    Two of the questions have correct answer slots that dont even appear on the page.
15. •  
      CommentAuthorjohnjones
    • CommentTimeFeb 24th 2012

     (10493.175)

    Questions answered correctly: 9 out of 24 (38%)

    
    
    Alas, I suppose I will have to remain a "Bloody Colonial..."
16. •  
      CommentAuthorJP Carpenter
    • CommentTimeFeb 24th 2012

     (10493.176)
    Yep - that's a business website registered to a company called 'the stationery office', part of the Williams Lea Group. They are trying to sell handbooks by scaring you into feeling like an inadequate potential citizen...
17. • CommentAuthorkeyofsilence
    • CommentTimeFeb 24th 2012

     (10493.177)
    10/24, the worst score yet. Can anyone beat me?!
18. •  
      CommentAuthorFoamhead
    • CommentTimeFeb 24th 2012 edited

     (10493.178)

    You have failed the practice citizenship test.
    
    Questions answered correctly: 15 out of 24 (63%)

    (Wonder if we can somehow make this test part of the EDL or BNP membership application?)
19. • CommentAuthorDC
    • CommentTimeFeb 24th 2012

     (10493.179)
    8/24, worse yet but since I'm not from the UK or Commonwealth I'm excused:P
20. •  
      CommentAuthoroscillateur
    • CommentTimeFeb 24th 2012

     (10493.180)
    I got 16/24 and I'm a frenchman living in Japan :).
    Seriously, is this supposed to mean anything ? I have to admit that I answered a few questions by checking the possible answers and choosing the one that seemed more likely to be the "good one" (i.e. kind of middle ground).