Whitechapel - 21st century pop culture and the decline of civilisation Wed, 22 May 2013 11:15:20 -0700 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.1.4 & Feed Publisher 21st century pop culture and the decline of civilisation http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329471#Comment_329471 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329471#Comment_329471 Fri, 13 Apr 2012 11:54:04 -0700 cjstevens
Apologies, this gets very ranty...

I admit since Ellis abandoned this hovel I am not as frequent a visitor, but I just need some perspective or closure or second opinion and the people who post and read on here are probably the most qualified to help out.

Cut a long story short I picked up a book today and started reading the prologue. I don't mean any disrespect neither do I wish to bad-mouth or negatively criticise others but from my point of view this was bad. Not just bad it was really bad, like awful, like the sort of thing I would have written as a child, or for a child. I wondered if this was a children's or Young Adult book..I checked, it does not appear to be. Then I did some more research and my jaw began to drop.


I'll be honest, I only read the prologue to these books. It is in no way possible to judge or critique any work based on reading the first 5 or so pages but seriously, am I the only person that is witnessing what can only be described as the dawn of the dumb?? I mean based on current trends surely these books are next in line for some billion dollar movie franchise right? All I am surrounded by is remakes, franchises, re-hased ideas, glossed up and pumped out to brainless masses, and then I hear how the movie industry is suffering due to piracy and blah blah blah. NO. NO. NO NO. Hollywood clearly has more money than sense. I mean you know they are remaking Robocop right..You know the greatest action/sci-fi film ever made, they are remaking it... And you know that YouTube clip about Epic Beard man AKA AC Transit Bus fight meme.. You realise it has been made into a big budget film starring....Danny Trejo as Epic Beard Man...(Even Ron Pearlman who seems to be in everything at the moment is in it..) Its called Badass...
Ok I know I am going off topic and I think it is highly possible I need psychological help but am I alone here? Is anyone else concerned about how we as a society produce, consume or rate popular culture.
It must be me because I cannot even find a negative review of the authors work... ]]> 21st century pop culture and the decline of civilisation http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329472#Comment_329472 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329472#Comment_329472 Fri, 13 Apr 2012 12:17:49 -0700 glukkake 21st century pop culture and the decline of civilisation http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329476#Comment_329476 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329476#Comment_329476 Fri, 13 Apr 2012 13:18:01 -0700 nigredo 21st century pop culture and the decline of civilisation http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329477#Comment_329477 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329477#Comment_329477 Fri, 13 Apr 2012 13:30:27 -0700 William Joseph Dunn "they are remaking Robocop right..You know the greatest action/sci-fi film ever made"

??? ]]> 21st century pop culture and the decline of civilisation http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329494#Comment_329494 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329494#Comment_329494 Fri, 13 Apr 2012 16:36:02 -0700 Steve Toase
Waste of energy you could be using to write something of your own.

And popular culture has always had its fair share of dumb. Considering most of those are romance awards I'd steer clear of Mills and Boon, you'll implode in outrage. ]]> 21st century pop culture and the decline of civilisation http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329543#Comment_329543 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329543#Comment_329543 Sat, 14 Apr 2012 10:00:50 -0700 Ben Klumaster 21st century pop culture and the decline of civilisation http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329545#Comment_329545 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329545#Comment_329545 Sat, 14 Apr 2012 10:15:34 -0700 government spy I think it is highly possible I need psychological help

THIS. ]]> 21st century pop culture and the decline of civilisation http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329550#Comment_329550 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329550#Comment_329550 Sat, 14 Apr 2012 12:24:20 -0700 cjstevens I wish her all the best, really I do. If she is happy and successful and her readership are enjoying the books, that's great. I was just hoping maybe there was a chance someone on here had read her stuff and could explain why she is so popular and has garnered such critical acclaim. (Eg. how actually the plots are really exciting as you get into the story or something). Alternatively if anyone had read her stuff and agreed with me, this would have made me feel like my opinion was justified and I would go quietly back to reading The Many Deaths of the Black Company, or Promethea or whatever I else I am currently enjoying and stop threading ranty posts on this awesome board.

@glukkake: No, you did not read the words that I typed.

@nigredo: Your blog is really informative, entertaining and well constructed. RSS added.

@William Joseph Dunn: I think so. I know Aliens, The Thing, T2, Mad Max, E.S.B, Matrix are all great but if it was like my desert-island Blu-Ray, it would have to be Robocop...Or Total Recall...Or Starship Troopers...I just have a thing for Verhoeven.

@Steve Toase: I'm totally with you. The counter-balance to my initial reaction is I have been inspired, as theoretically based on what I read I may actually have a chance of getting something published one day, and maybe, just maybe making a few quid in the process. Win/Win.

@government spy: LOL...and I never ever write that. I am looking into professional help, but I also believe there is a fine line between insanity and GENIUS. ]]> 21st century pop culture and the decline of civilisation http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329551#Comment_329551 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329551#Comment_329551 Sat, 14 Apr 2012 12:35:43 -0700 Morac I am looking into professional help, but I also believe there is a fine line between insanity and GENIUS.
It's less of a line, and more of 20 kilometers of swamplands. ]]> 21st century pop culture and the decline of civilisation http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329552#Comment_329552 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329552#Comment_329552 Sat, 14 Apr 2012 13:01:53 -0700 Ben Gwalchmai
I haven't read any of the books but I'll glad offer further avenues for discussion.

Has anyone here seen Phantom of The Opera?
Yup, the stage musical.
I happen to think it's appaling - it's terribly written and the music [though with about 6 obviously good hooks] has some AWFUL, LOUD ELECTRO bits in it that just make me crease up laughing. I thought I'd give it a second chance when it was shown on UK tv and I spent the entire first half laughing at how bad it was and the entire second half feeling quite dirty for continuing to watch. Yet it's critically lauded by some as a 'modern masterpiece'.
Bad as it is, it made something very clear to me: some audiences don't want to leave the theatre thinking; they want to know exactly what they're getting at all times and at all times during the performance and they want bright colours and they want loud noises and they want obvious 'thrills' and they want broad, sweeping, obvious archetypes.

I could be very wrong but I think we can all agree that what I've said there does apply to some audiences.
[Stay with me, this is getting to a bigger question.]
In popular culture, as Steve said, there's always been a good deal of trash but I think some trash - like pulp comics or penny dreadfuls - relish in their trashiness and make a fine, fun art form with it.

However, what I think cjstevens is getting at here is that due to the overwhelming amount of work out there in the 21st century, those some audiences I mentioned are being catered to more and more: Pop Idol and its ilk - there's even a similar thing for books - have created a massive blur between what is critically good and what is appreciated en masse.

There are those that immediately reject anything liked my the mass horde of the population but I'm not one of them. I do, however, take the position that I dislike the writing in both the Harry Potter and the Twilight series. Apologies to all those Whitechapellians who like those books [but not Phantom - it's just tooooo awful] but I think that they're really badly written.

So the logical question from cjstevens' original point then becomes does something have to be well written for it to sell well and be rated well?
And here's my addition: or does selling well often give weight to then being rated well?

Further thoughts: I've dipped my toe into reading Amanda Hocking and, though I don't think she's as terrible as some writers I've read, I don't think she's very good. In fact, I think she's quite an obvious writer. And yet! Her books sell incredibly well, she knows her YA market and pitches her language, her structure, her character's emotional reactions directly at that market - what she does is an odd talent in itself. Her talent at market targeting is something I can't quite comprehend but maybe Whitechapel has the answer?

What say you Whitechapel, is she a witch? [I'd weigh her but I've not got any scales big enough] ]]> 21st century pop culture and the decline of civilisation http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329554#Comment_329554 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329554#Comment_329554 Sat, 14 Apr 2012 13:39:45 -0700 johnjones 21st century pop culture and the decline of civilisation http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329560#Comment_329560 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329560#Comment_329560 Sat, 14 Apr 2012 15:13:08 -0700 Steve Toase So the logical question from cjstevens' original point then becomes does something have to be well written for it to sell well and be rated well?
And here's my addition: or does selling well often give weight to then being rated well?

No, but I don't think it ever has. I wonder if there is a real increase in trash or an increasing in rapidity that trash from round the world gets to new locations.

I started writing a couple of years ago and performing at spoken word, and suddenly had a new respect for 'anyone' who has the tenacity and bollocks to get up and perform, put their work out there. Doesn't mean I have to like it, but I think cjstevens is about 2000 years too late declaring the end of civilisation/dumbing down because of populist culture.

Every society think that the upcoming entertainment is the lowest point of the achievement of the human race. That's why religious heads keep been able to declare apocalypse. ]]> 21st century pop culture and the decline of civilisation http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329590#Comment_329590 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329590#Comment_329590 Sun, 15 Apr 2012 03:49:48 -0700 Morac 21st century pop culture and the decline of civilisation http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329592#Comment_329592 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329592#Comment_329592 Sun, 15 Apr 2012 04:09:33 -0700 roadscum 21st century pop culture and the decline of civilisation http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329594#Comment_329594 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329594#Comment_329594 Sun, 15 Apr 2012 04:25:33 -0700 Steve Toase 21st century pop culture and the decline of civilisation http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329609#Comment_329609 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329609#Comment_329609 Sun, 15 Apr 2012 07:31:21 -0700 Sonny I have read excessively since the age of three, I am now 28. When it comes to books, films, music, comics, art, basically any form of popular or alternative culture I believe I am highly knowledgeable and have excellent taste (obviously).

You lost me man. ]]> 21st century pop culture and the decline of civilisation http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329615#Comment_329615 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329615#Comment_329615 Sun, 15 Apr 2012 09:32:32 -0700 Birds_Use_Stars I have read excessively since the age of three, I am now 28. When it comes to books, films, music, comics, art, basically any form of popular or alternative culture I believe I am highly knowledgeable and have excellent taste (obviously).


You lost me man.

No no, it makes sense. He "Obviously" believes he is highly knowledgable and has excellent taste. ]]> 21st century pop culture and the decline of civilisation http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329617#Comment_329617 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329617#Comment_329617 Sun, 15 Apr 2012 09:49:39 -0700 flecky
I've got terrible taste. ]]> 21st century pop culture and the decline of civilisation http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329632#Comment_329632 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329632#Comment_329632 Sun, 15 Apr 2012 12:37:48 -0700 longtimelurker
Mark Millar said a couple of years ago that the X-MEN films changed the game for action blockbusters. That the audience wasn't going to be satisfied with John McClane once they got a taste of a guy with knives coming out of his hands. You look at the success of AVENGERS and his prophecy has borne out.

HARRY POTTER gave the same thing for young kids. The audience for children's adventure never went away; POTTER simply coupled it with mythic weirdness young kids had never seen before, in a format that aged with them.

Similarly, TWILIGHT. You have to understand most of the detractors of the franchise were never part of the YA romance audience to begin with. Hocking was. She loves those kinds of books, so she's writing for herself. Now that the YA romance fans have gotten a taste of the weird, they're not going back. ]]> 21st century pop culture and the decline of civilisation http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329672#Comment_329672 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329672#Comment_329672 Mon, 16 Apr 2012 01:33:21 -0700 cjstevens
@Sonny it was pseudo-sarcasm, as 'obviously' I believe I have excellent taste, most people think that what they think is right is right..right?

@Steve Toase + Morac I strongly disagree. I believe that there is a steady rise of terrible art-not just literature but music, film, probably poetry and contemporary dance whatever the medium or form, more than ten or twenty years ago. I guess it rises exponentially with each passing day. I mean 2000 years ago only the wealthy educated elite could get there hands on some papyrus to scrawl some theory or art let alone get it distributed to the public. I guess if you wrote/drew or performed something you thought was brilliant and your King/Queen/Pharoah did not like it, you and your family would be viciously murdered. The porn frescoes at Pompeii would now rightly be classified as 'valuable'. Moreover, the opportunity and modern technology means that, in theory, anyone, however talented or not can create something and get publicised/marketed to the world within a very short time-frame. Obviously this is a fantastic thing as it offers each individual the chance to express themselves and earn a living from their work. However, clearly this is the gift/curse of the 21st century and collectively our ability to critically judge 'quality' seems to be diminishing with each breath Simon Cowell takes.

This is where I bring Lil B into the theory. For those not familiar with Lil B he is a mediocre American Rapper who has proved that you can basically be very rich and successful from repeating the phrase 'I fucked your bitch' and 'Swag' over and over again. In reality he is actually more talented than this, but he created something like 100 Myspace accounts to just pump out his tunes, saturating the net with so much music that eventually people were like 'Yeah Lil B' and now he is HUGE. Lil B knows this, I have actually a lot of respect for the guy as he explains that as long as you are positive and keep working hard you can eventually 'stack your bread up'.
Great news right?
Well, yes, but there is a flip-side. Firstly, I need to point out that I myself am a Free-Market Capitalist. I have no time for unrealistic left-wing Socialist/Communist theory as I believe it is elitism is disguise. We all go by the Cher Lloyd's advice:

Count that money, get your game on
Get your game on, get your game on

However I see a problem with this philosophy as it seems to support the 'no such thing as society' ethos.

Philip Green, Alan Sugar, Rupert Murdoch, Richard Branson. Now arguably (people may disagree) but I don't think these people are especially smart. Or nice. I definitely would not want to have a pint with them -I guess as I would still have to buy the round, but if you wake up extra early every day and spend each second trying your hardest to make a pound note the law of probability dictates that sooner or later you will become rich. Great. But I suspect that these people would sell asbestos cigarettes to kids to make a profit. So on one hand just concentrate on your own bank account, pump out as much product as you can, sell sell regardless of quality. But we live on Planet Earth, a celestial body with a finite level of resources and while Mr.BP is clearly big pimping at the moment, is this best for the planet/society as a whole? Now, you may not think this relates to the huge level of 'trashy literature' pumped out by writers, but I think it does. I think it is all relative and I think we will all suffer. I only write this because I actually give a shit, and I think it is a fascinating subject. ]]> 21st century pop culture and the decline of civilisation http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329674#Comment_329674 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329674#Comment_329674 Mon, 16 Apr 2012 01:48:17 -0700 Horrible Warning Si which doesn't exist yet. ]]> 21st century pop culture and the decline of civilisation http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329675#Comment_329675 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329675#Comment_329675 Mon, 16 Apr 2012 01:54:32 -0700 taphead volunteer for for valid causes that help children. ]]> 21st century pop culture and the decline of civilisation http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329677#Comment_329677 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329677#Comment_329677 Mon, 16 Apr 2012 01:59:38 -0700 cjstevens
Apologies. I think I originally submitted this under 'Main Junction'. Whitechapel automatically selected 'Disenchanted'. Please feel free to change to any category you see best. Additionally, your current run on Crossed online is fantastic. That is all. ]]> 21st century pop culture and the decline of civilisation http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329682#Comment_329682 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329682#Comment_329682 Mon, 16 Apr 2012 02:36:43 -0700 roadscum
Good, just checking. ]]> 21st century pop culture and the decline of civilisation http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329686#Comment_329686 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329686#Comment_329686 Mon, 16 Apr 2012 02:52:59 -0700 taphead
I strongly disagree. I believe that there is a steady rise of terrible art-not just literature but music, film, probably poetry and contemporary dance whatever the medium or form, more than ten or twenty years ago. I guess it rises exponentially with each passing day.


my nostalgia allergies kick in something fierce.

If you seriously consider bestseller lists a valid gauge of the current state of "civilisation", you're already looking at things all wrong. From where I'm standing, pop-culture-wise, we are currently going through what is pretty much the most tremendous change in bridging the gap between creators and consumers, and what that's been bringing about is an absolutely mindblowing number of grassroots events and cross-pollinating cultural movements.

(Then again, I'm an unrealistic left-wing Socialist/Communist, as evidenced by my disguised elitism.) ]]> 21st century pop culture and the decline of civilisation http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329712#Comment_329712 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329712#Comment_329712 Mon, 16 Apr 2012 07:48:36 -0700 Steve Toase
I mean 2000 years ago only the wealthy educated elite could get there hands on some papyrus to scrawl some theory or art let alone get it distributed to the public. I guess if you wrote/drew or performed something you thought was brilliant and your King/Queen/Pharoah did not like it, you and your family would be viciously murdered

Rubbish. Art, music and story sit at all levels of society. There has always been transgressive art and shit art, which brings me to your next point.
The porn frescoes at Pompeii would now rightly be classified as 'valuable'.
Schoolboy error for anyone looking at the historical significance of art. You've taken imagery from Roman society out of its social context and applied a modern concept of pornography to it. These were worn for good luck and ubiquitous in Roman Society

Glass phallus



Retrospect is a very good shit culture filter. ]]> 21st century pop culture and the decline of civilisation http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329719#Comment_329719 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329719#Comment_329719 Mon, 16 Apr 2012 09:33:54 -0700 oldhat
No. I'm not joining this. ]]> 21st century pop culture and the decline of civilisation http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329720#Comment_329720 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329720#Comment_329720 Mon, 16 Apr 2012 09:45:10 -0700 flecky 21st century pop culture and the decline of civilisation http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329721#Comment_329721 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329721#Comment_329721 Mon, 16 Apr 2012 09:47:24 -0700 taphead 21st century pop culture and the decline of civilisation http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329722#Comment_329722 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329722#Comment_329722 Mon, 16 Apr 2012 09:59:19 -0700 Birds_Use_Stars ]]> 21st century pop culture and the decline of civilisation http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329726#Comment_329726 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329726#Comment_329726 Mon, 16 Apr 2012 11:00:55 -0700 city creed
if you wake up extra early every day and spend each second trying your hardest to make a pound note the law of probability dictates that sooner or later you will become rich.

No, no it really doesn't. There's no law that dictates that. I'm no expert but the root cause of your frustration may have something to do with this misconception.

I believe that there is a steady rise of terrible art-not just literature but music, film, probably poetry and contemporary dance

"Our tastefully constructed culture is being misappropriated by the common folk and they're doing ghastly things with it!" as though until just yesterday it was all bards in Lothlorien and now suddenly it's hobbits fisting orcs in the Big Brother house. There's no historical metric I'm aware of but I'm pretty sure people have always been full of shit. There was never any golden age when the art and literature was all perfect and wonderful and classy and challenging. There's always been an awful lot of crap out there, because people A) are annoying and all have some stupid shit they want to say, and B) are intolerant, snobbish and dismissive of the stupid shit that anyone else says. This leads to the universally perceived truth that the world is brim full of annoying stupid shit which can for the most part be safely disregarded.

Kenyon does not represent any kind of existential threat to some vague notion of artistic worth. She is a woman who has written (I just peeked) a helluva lot of books. I imagine she worked pretty hard, made sacrifices, paid her dues, and banged out several million words that a lot of people apparently enjoyed reading. I don't get why you think she would be deserving of special ire on this board because any of us might not feel thrilled by her work. That's not really what goes on here.

As for Lil B:
he is a mediocre American Rapper who has proved that you can basically be very rich and successful from repeating the phrase 'I fucked your bitch' and 'Swag' over and over again. /snip/ I have actually a lot of respect for the guy

What significant difference do you feel there is between the success of Lil B and the success of Kenyon that would account for why you respect one and deride the other? Is it the swag or something else? Again, I can't help feeling that reflecting on possible answers might help shed light on the origins of the adverse reaction that drove you unwisely into whitechapel's snarky-loving arm-jaws.

I have no time for unrealistic left-wing Socialist/Communist theory as I believe it is elitism is disguise

ahem *sips water* Permission to treat the witness as hostile? ]]> 21st century pop culture and the decline of civilisation http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329727#Comment_329727 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329727#Comment_329727 Mon, 16 Apr 2012 11:15:11 -0700 Steve Toase Do you think he doesn't like Kenyon because there aren't any hobbits fisting orcs? ]]> 21st century pop culture and the decline of civilisation http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329728#Comment_329728 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329728#Comment_329728 Mon, 16 Apr 2012 11:23:10 -0700 RenThing I don't like Kenyon.

DON'T YOU JUDGE ME! ]]> 21st century pop culture and the decline of civilisation http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329729#Comment_329729 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329729#Comment_329729 Mon, 16 Apr 2012 11:27:20 -0700 Steve Toase
(Picturing very disturbing Crossed LOTR crossover now. Thanks, no really!) ]]> 21st century pop culture and the decline of civilisation http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329737#Comment_329737 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329737#Comment_329737 Mon, 16 Apr 2012 12:59:18 -0700 cjstevens
The reason I had to bring writers into the discussion was the amount of awards, critical acclaim and praise she had legitimately won. By contrast Lil B has only been nominated for 2 awards (that I'm aware of). I guess the Romans did not award the phalli-smiths (new terminology?) with vast sums of money, huge praise or believe what they were wearing round their necks was profound or aesthetically valuable, thereby encouraging them to make new variations of phalli that would saturate their world...? The analogy has now confused me...
I also refuse to believe that anyone can discount the fact that there is clearly now more of an abundance of just 'bad stuff' everywhere; Bad-Stuff 4.0, Bad-Stuff Rebooted, Bad-Stuff The Musical etc. Fine as it stands but from my perspective the 'bad stuff' is rated as high or higher than the 'good stuff' and the people who make the 'bad stuff' are therefore encouraged to make more 'bad stuff' and it permeates our culture and overshadows the 'good stuff' until more people believe that the 'bad stuff' is 'good stuff' and people choose to create more 'bad stuff' as that is the quickest/easiest way to make money and the cycle continues..

Don't get me wrong I have my guilty pleasures, I think Abba are the shit...
Oh yeah before I forget @Ben Gwalchmai, I have to admit I saw P.O.T.O four years ago in New York. To be fair I thought it was pretty entertaining, it was just an enjoyable spectacle. The music, the dance, the SFX were pretty impressive, my memory is a bit hazy but at one point the Phantom was swinging on a huge chandelier above the audience and singing and it was actually just quite fun! Over-rated? Probably, but fun nonetheless!

Last thing RE: Socialism/Communism..I only studied Politics at A-Level, I am no expert. I read history, I read the news. I have nothing against anyone who has left-wing views, I just think if you look at the evidence and the history books it seems that 'Socialism' or 'Communism' is an economic theory that is promoted by the elite to convince the masses that they will be getting a fair society when in reality it just strips the individual of all rights/property/cash/assets and redistributes it to officials who are as evil and corrupt (arguably more so) than the capitalist pigs they claim to despise. I think it is something to be very very suspicious of.

OK I think I'm done now :) ]]> 21st century pop culture and the decline of civilisation http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329738#Comment_329738 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329738#Comment_329738 Mon, 16 Apr 2012 13:03:41 -0700 Steve Toase 21st century pop culture and the decline of civilisation http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329751#Comment_329751 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329751#Comment_329751 Mon, 16 Apr 2012 14:15:41 -0700 KeeperofManyNames
The sheer explosion of cognitive dissonance is making me feel like I'm at a Melt Banana concert or something. ]]> 21st century pop culture and the decline of civilisation http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329763#Comment_329763 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329763#Comment_329763 Mon, 16 Apr 2012 16:57:23 -0700 city creed So you're saying your real grouse is about the relative number of awards here? Really? So if Lil B won more awards would you hate him more or hate Kenyon less? Yeah, sorry, I really don't think that's it.

The phallus inserted upthread (sorry) by Steve Toase was not an analogy I think, I'm pretty sure he was trying to make a point about the cultural attitudes of ancient Roman society towards sex and the risks of applying modern Western standards to that.
I also refuse to believe that anyone can discount the fact that there is clearly now more of an abundance of just 'bad stuff' everywhere
Again, as Steve points out, the underlying shit levels are the same, it's visible shit levels that have gone through the roof thanks to advances in shit-seeing technology. Sturgeon's Law prevails, and refuse to believe it if you will but this is me flatly discounting the notion that, proportionately, "there is clearly now more of an abundance of just 'bad stuff'."

You could make an argument here about how increasing corporatisation of the big Hollywood studios hampers the efforts of creatives to bring their vision intact to the screen. You could argue that the big two comics houses are so dependent on their primary assets that they trap them in aspic and churn out endless remakes and rehashes that never move the characters or their stories forward one bit. You could claim that syndicated network television and Friends have so dulled audience expectations that literally any old shit with pretty people snarking at each other can get a few seasons in at the expense of complex and moving psychological dramas about the human condition. You could suggest that the popularity of celebrity autobiographies and ghost-written children's books has led desperate publishers down a path of inexorably diminishing returns. But you're not making any of these arguments. You're just pointing at Ms Kenyon's handsome collection of awards yelling "Doomed! We're all doomed! It's so bad!" Which comes off as not just shortsighted and mean, but utterly devoid of any analytical force.

I'm not touching the politics discussion as I consider having a maggot-free urethra one of my finer qualities and I'm reluctant to surrender it. Suffice to say that worrying about hypothetical communist elites taking your stuff seems somewhat precious when there are actual capitalist elites currently fucking all of us into a hole in the ground. Also, what Keeper said. ]]> 21st century pop culture and the decline of civilisation http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329769#Comment_329769 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329769#Comment_329769 Mon, 16 Apr 2012 19:34:22 -0700 KeeperofManyNames You could make an argument here about how increasing corporatisation of the big Hollywood studios hampers the efforts of creatives to bring their vision intact to the screen. You could argue that the big two comics houses are so dependent on their primary assets that they trap them in aspic and churn out endless remakes and rehashes that never move the characters or their stories forward one bit. You could claim that syndicated network television and Friends have so dulled audience expectations that literally any old shit with pretty people snarking at each other can get a few seasons in at the expense of complex and moving psychological dramas about the human condition. You could suggest that the popularity of celebrity autobiographies and ghost-written children's books has led desperate publishers down a path of inexorably diminishing returns. But you're not making any of these arguments.

I think this is my underlying problem with the idea behind this thread as well. I mean, I'm a fairly vocal critic (well, not on here, but elsewhere in my life) of the contemporary fine art scene. I think it's become ossified and tied to the heritage of Dada in a way that basically rips its fangs out and reintegrates it comfortably into the plush gallery system.

But.

On the other hand, I just finally read The Hunger Games for the first time, and while I wasn't blown away by the writing, I was blown away by the author's willingness to spend time detailing all the complex political nuances of the games and their multitiered, backstabby metagame. It reminded me, in some ways, of Dune For Young Adults.

Now, I can look at just the rather limited fine art scene and say we're all doomed. Or, I can look at culture as a whole and say that while some media seem to have lost their teeth, other media seem to be picking up the slack. But just declaring the end of Western Civilization... well, that would just make my argument look kind of silly, and it detracts from any real institutional critique that you could give, especially because it ultimately dismisses a lot of creators who are putting out stunning material. (Have you ever watched one of Lady Gaga's ten minute long postmodern music videos, for example? Did you ever even consider giving one a chance?)

If you're just howling that the end is nigh, your ability to create a fine-grained analysis of what media are failing us and why is totally compromised. ]]> 21st century pop culture and the decline of civilisation http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329776#Comment_329776 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329776#Comment_329776 Mon, 16 Apr 2012 22:32:08 -0700 oddbill
Will someone please kill this freshman level circle jerk of angst!?!? ]]> 21st century pop culture and the decline of civilisation http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329778#Comment_329778 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329778#Comment_329778 Mon, 16 Apr 2012 23:38:04 -0700 Fishelle
Yes. Please. Why is this still open? Why was it not immediately closed with a stern warning to the original poster? Where's Warren when you need him? ]]> 21st century pop culture and the decline of civilisation http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329779#Comment_329779 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329779#Comment_329779 Mon, 16 Apr 2012 23:40:35 -0700 Steve Toase @Oddbill No problem with that at all ]]> 21st century pop culture and the decline of civilisation http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329781#Comment_329781 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329781#Comment_329781 Mon, 16 Apr 2012 23:55:07 -0700 taphead 21st century pop culture and the decline of civilisation http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329783#Comment_329783 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329783#Comment_329783 Tue, 17 Apr 2012 00:42:31 -0700 sneak046 suavely performed thread derail when you need one?

]]> 21st century pop culture and the decline of civilisation http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329788#Comment_329788 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329788#Comment_329788 Tue, 17 Apr 2012 01:24:48 -0700 Nygaard
This is one of those eternal constants people have whined about since the dawn of time. Young people today are stupid and uppity, people like to look at other people's arses, popular art is inferior to elite art and so on and so forth. I often have these "oh my god how is such stupidity even achievable in a human lifetime" kinda moments. But it helps to remind myself that I probably give other people that very same feeling on a regular basis.

There have been times when craftsmanship in the european cultural sphere genuinely took a dive, but we're talking stuff like the postapocalyptic landscape of the fall of the roman empire, with people fleeing the cities en masse, and the elite culture which supported a tradition of exquisite craftsmanship being wiped out by hordes and hordes of axe-murdering maniacs whose idea of sophistication was to wear rich people's crotch skin as pants to gain their luck. We're not quite there yet, I feel.

It's interesting that rhetorical strategies which can be employed to establish authority are reasonably coherent over such a long timespan, though. Regardless of the actual value or shittyness of any attempt to please esthetically, denouncing a work often says more about how you regard yourself or want to be percieved that the actual work. My guess is that this connection with the personal, our ongoing assembly of a self-image, is also what provokes those impulsive thought-feelings of outraged "this stuff is an insult to my intelligence and that of all sentient life ever" which forces its way out as flames and scathing reviews or just plain fear for the future of all mankind. It's also a mark of belonging or wanting to belong just as much as tribal paint or gang colours; not so much to do with displaying or defending the appreciation of good craftsmanship, as belonging to a social group whose members are able to aquire such skills. ]]> 21st century pop culture and the decline of civilisation http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329790#Comment_329790 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329790#Comment_329790 Tue, 17 Apr 2012 01:38:56 -0700 Steve Toase 21st century pop culture and the decline of civilisation http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329799#Comment_329799 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329799#Comment_329799 Tue, 17 Apr 2012 02:31:10 -0700 TF
This thread has reminded me of all the ways in which Whitechapel has helped me be a "grown up".(-ish) ]]> 21st century pop culture and the decline of civilisation http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329800#Comment_329800 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329800#Comment_329800 Tue, 17 Apr 2012 03:14:11 -0700 Finagle 21st century pop culture and the decline of civilisation http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329807#Comment_329807 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329807#Comment_329807 Tue, 17 Apr 2012 05:03:59 -0700 Magnulus
Okay, one small point here: Norway's widely considered to be a socialist country. Last time I checked, Norway was doing JUST FINE. And don't tell me that's all because of the oil we found. It's because of how we distributed the resulting profits, how the state perceives its people and how the people perceive their state. Just a small point there on socialism being historically crap.

Also, let me bring up music through the decades. When I was in my teens and early twenties, the eighties were largely derided and laughed at for being not just hideous but also rammed FULL of crap music. In those days, people were re-releasing and lauding the classics of the seventies. Then, about five years ago, it seemed to shift. Now, the nineties is the decade to deride and we're actually starting to find that some of the timeless classics of the eighties are being dragged out from under the muck. In another half-a-decade, the best of the nineties will rise up and stand as shining beacons of musical light while the noughties will be derided for their... I don't even know.

You can't say NOW that NOW is full of shit. NOW is ALWAYS full of shit. In twenty years, you can judge now - which will then be the far past - and say whether it was a cup half full or half empty of shit (geddit?). You can't compare history to presence. It doesn't work like that. Hindsight is twenty-twenty. The fact that some author won X awards is just as indicative of actual importance in society as how many books she sold or how good the reviews were. Not at all. How many books did Eragon sell? Does anyone even REMEMBER that steaming pile of mediocrity? It was a MASSIVE hit! It had a crap film adaptation with Jeremy Irons in it! It doesn't matter. None of it matters until it's "History". ]]> 21st century pop culture and the decline of civilisation http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329839#Comment_329839 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329839#Comment_329839 Tue, 17 Apr 2012 12:06:53 -0700 cjstevens
Final thoughts: You are right, I forgot about this and came back to this thread after a day of walking around London doing interesting stuff with good people and thought, why did I have this sudden outburst of anger/confusion at only reading a few pages of an author I wouldn't have read anyway? I'm sure she has probably written something decent amongst the abundance of material produced, I don't have any personal hatred of her or her work. I only stated I respect Lil B by comparison as I had heard some of his early stuff that proved he is actually pretty talented and I kinda respect the way that he actually releases intentionally crappy music -I guess as a kind of fuck you to the industry and yet is still successful. (I mean he doesn't take himself too seriously whereas I would have argued that the author does).

So thanks for your input people.

@Fishelle: you seem slightly too precious of this forum...I only wanted intelligent opinions. If the thread was originally closed, a successful resolution would never have been attained...

@KeeperofManyNames: 'Decline of Western Civilisation' was a massive non-serious hyperbole. Don't worry I am not constructing a bunker..I don't think I ever stated 'Less Good Art', I simply posited there was possibly more 'bad art' and that it was being lauded as 'good art', permeating culture more heavily and thereby overshadowing or eclipsing the valuable works, but maybe I am wrong. Maybe there is just MORE STUFF, good/bad whatever and it is down to us as individuals to discern what we deem to be valuable. Oh and about the elitist thing; all 'viable' economic/political systems are inherently hypocritical and elitist. However, I would argue that Socialist/Communist theory is the only one that claims it is NOT. Therefore I would trust it the least. ]]> 21st century pop culture and the decline of civilisation http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329845#Comment_329845 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329845#Comment_329845 Tue, 17 Apr 2012 13:18:38 -0700 oddbill
This exact kind of sophomoric idiocy masquerading as intellectual conversation used to be summarily executed under the previous management. It would have either just been disappeared, or closed after the first post with a gruff admonition. This was a feature of this community that was much loved by many of us.

Nothing of value was generated here. It was ignorance and concern trolling from beginning to end. We are all dumber for having read it. Please don't do it again. ]]> 21st century pop culture and the decline of civilisation http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329848#Comment_329848 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329848#Comment_329848 Tue, 17 Apr 2012 14:25:32 -0700 texture
]]> 21st century pop culture and the decline of civilisation http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329850#Comment_329850 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329850#Comment_329850 Tue, 17 Apr 2012 14:28:46 -0700 KeeperofManyNames
...The thread should probably still be nuked from orbit, though. ]]> 21st century pop culture and the decline of civilisation http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329855#Comment_329855 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329855#Comment_329855 Tue, 17 Apr 2012 15:05:38 -0700 city creed 21st century pop culture and the decline of civilisation http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329859#Comment_329859 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329859#Comment_329859 Tue, 17 Apr 2012 15:43:44 -0700 Stoto
Regardless of the actual value or shittyness of any attempt to please esthetically, denouncing a work often says more about how you regard yourself or want to be percieved that the actual work. My guess is that this connection with the personal, our ongoing assembly of a self-image, is also what provokes those impulsive thought-feelings of outraged "this stuff is an insult to my intelligence and that of all sentient life ever"...
]]> 21st century pop culture and the decline of civilisation http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329884#Comment_329884 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329884#Comment_329884 Wed, 18 Apr 2012 04:07:21 -0700 flecky 21st century pop culture and the decline of civilisation http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329888#Comment_329888 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329888#Comment_329888 Wed, 18 Apr 2012 06:39:10 -0700 mister hex
Look, "Art" or whatever has to make money. Disney lost 200 million clams on John Carter - but they made more than enough from the Depleted Uranium Division to off-set the loss. Let's hear it for diversification!

@ bill - yeah, Warren would've killed this faster than a pedo on his first night in jail. ]]> 21st century pop culture and the decline of civilisation http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329892#Comment_329892 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329892#Comment_329892 Wed, 18 Apr 2012 07:15:06 -0700 Ben Klumaster 21st century pop culture and the decline of civilisation http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329897#Comment_329897 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329897#Comment_329897 Wed, 18 Apr 2012 09:38:48 -0700 William Joseph Dunn MISSING: Whitechapel Arse Eels - Last seen Apr 9th 2012. If seen, do not approach. Please contact Whitechapel administrators at once. The eels are missed and are gravely needed.

thank you. ]]> 21st century pop culture and the decline of civilisation http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329900#Comment_329900 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10613&Focus=329900#Comment_329900 Wed, 18 Apr 2012 10:48:00 -0700 cjstevens
(EELS+MAGGOTS/GENITALIA)=Self-Administered ]]>