Not signed in (Sign In)
    •  
      CommentAuthorFishelle
    • CommentTimeApr 16th 2012
     (10613.41)
    Oddbill, you have a friend in me.

    Yes. Please. Why is this still open? Why was it not immediately closed with a stern warning to the original poster? Where's Warren when you need him?
  1.  (10613.42)
    @citycreed Yes that was the side point I was making re Roman 'porn'
    @Oddbill No problem with that at all
    •  
      CommentAuthortaphead
    • CommentTimeApr 16th 2012
     (10613.43)
    Yeah, apart from opening up the whole can of worms that the "effects of socialism vs. free market capitalism on society and culture" discussion (interesting as that one actually might be), I think I'm done here.
    •  
      CommentAuthorsneak046
    • CommentTimeApr 17th 2012 edited
     (10613.44)
    Where's the good, old fashioned suavely performed thread derail when you need one?

    •  
      CommentAuthorNygaard
    • CommentTimeApr 17th 2012
     (10613.45)
    I would like it to be noted that I know exactly what the OP is talking about, and that none of it causes me to worry at all.

    This is one of those eternal constants people have whined about since the dawn of time. Young people today are stupid and uppity, people like to look at other people's arses, popular art is inferior to elite art and so on and so forth. I often have these "oh my god how is such stupidity even achievable in a human lifetime" kinda moments. But it helps to remind myself that I probably give other people that very same feeling on a regular basis.

    There have been times when craftsmanship in the european cultural sphere genuinely took a dive, but we're talking stuff like the postapocalyptic landscape of the fall of the roman empire, with people fleeing the cities en masse, and the elite culture which supported a tradition of exquisite craftsmanship being wiped out by hordes and hordes of axe-murdering maniacs whose idea of sophistication was to wear rich people's crotch skin as pants to gain their luck. We're not quite there yet, I feel.

    It's interesting that rhetorical strategies which can be employed to establish authority are reasonably coherent over such a long timespan, though. Regardless of the actual value or shittyness of any attempt to please esthetically, denouncing a work often says more about how you regard yourself or want to be percieved that the actual work. My guess is that this connection with the personal, our ongoing assembly of a self-image, is also what provokes those impulsive thought-feelings of outraged "this stuff is an insult to my intelligence and that of all sentient life ever" which forces its way out as flames and scathing reviews or just plain fear for the future of all mankind. It's also a mark of belonging or wanting to belong just as much as tribal paint or gang colours; not so much to do with displaying or defending the appreciation of good craftsmanship, as belonging to a social group whose members are able to aquire such skills.
  2.  (10613.46)
    *Returns crotch skin pants to Matalan* Maybe next season.
    •  
      CommentAuthorTF
    • CommentTimeApr 17th 2012
     (10613.47)
    On a positive note:

    This thread has reminded me of all the ways in which Whitechapel has helped me be a "grown up".(-ish)
    •  
      CommentAuthorFinagle
    • CommentTimeApr 17th 2012
     (10613.48)
    "Times are bad. Children no longer obey their parents, and everyone is writing a book." - Cicero
    •  
      CommentAuthorMagnulus
    • CommentTimeApr 17th 2012
     (10613.49)
    Mmm..

    Okay, one small point here: Norway's widely considered to be a socialist country. Last time I checked, Norway was doing JUST FINE. And don't tell me that's all because of the oil we found. It's because of how we distributed the resulting profits, how the state perceives its people and how the people perceive their state. Just a small point there on socialism being historically crap.

    Also, let me bring up music through the decades. When I was in my teens and early twenties, the eighties were largely derided and laughed at for being not just hideous but also rammed FULL of crap music. In those days, people were re-releasing and lauding the classics of the seventies. Then, about five years ago, it seemed to shift. Now, the nineties is the decade to deride and we're actually starting to find that some of the timeless classics of the eighties are being dragged out from under the muck. In another half-a-decade, the best of the nineties will rise up and stand as shining beacons of musical light while the noughties will be derided for their... I don't even know.

    You can't say NOW that NOW is full of shit. NOW is ALWAYS full of shit. In twenty years, you can judge now - which will then be the far past - and say whether it was a cup half full or half empty of shit (geddit?). You can't compare history to presence. It doesn't work like that. Hindsight is twenty-twenty. The fact that some author won X awards is just as indicative of actual importance in society as how many books she sold or how good the reviews were. Not at all. How many books did Eragon sell? Does anyone even REMEMBER that steaming pile of mediocrity? It was a MASSIVE hit! It had a crap film adaptation with Jeremy Irons in it! It doesn't matter. None of it matters until it's "History".
    • CommentAuthorcjstevens
    • CommentTimeApr 17th 2012 edited
     (10613.50)
    Hey guys/girls,

    Final thoughts: You are right, I forgot about this and came back to this thread after a day of walking around London doing interesting stuff with good people and thought, why did I have this sudden outburst of anger/confusion at only reading a few pages of an author I wouldn't have read anyway? I'm sure she has probably written something decent amongst the abundance of material produced, I don't have any personal hatred of her or her work. I only stated I respect Lil B by comparison as I had heard some of his early stuff that proved he is actually pretty talented and I kinda respect the way that he actually releases intentionally crappy music -I guess as a kind of fuck you to the industry and yet is still successful. (I mean he doesn't take himself too seriously whereas I would have argued that the author does).

    So thanks for your input people.

    @Fishelle: you seem slightly too precious of this forum...I only wanted intelligent opinions. If the thread was originally closed, a successful resolution would never have been attained...

    @KeeperofManyNames: 'Decline of Western Civilisation' was a massive non-serious hyperbole. Don't worry I am not constructing a bunker..I don't think I ever stated 'Less Good Art', I simply posited there was possibly more 'bad art' and that it was being lauded as 'good art', permeating culture more heavily and thereby overshadowing or eclipsing the valuable works, but maybe I am wrong. Maybe there is just MORE STUFF, good/bad whatever and it is down to us as individuals to discern what we deem to be valuable. Oh and about the elitist thing; all 'viable' economic/political systems are inherently hypocritical and elitist. However, I would argue that Socialist/Communist theory is the only one that claims it is NOT. Therefore I would trust it the least.
    •  
      CommentAuthoroddbill
    • CommentTimeApr 17th 2012
     (10613.51)
    Fishelle was not being "precious of this forum".

    This exact kind of sophomoric idiocy masquerading as intellectual conversation used to be summarily executed under the previous management. It would have either just been disappeared, or closed after the first post with a gruff admonition. This was a feature of this community that was much loved by many of us.

    Nothing of value was generated here. It was ignorance and concern trolling from beginning to end. We are all dumber for having read it. Please don't do it again.
    •  
      CommentAuthortexture
    • CommentTimeApr 17th 2012
     (10613.52)
    Turds can be polished:

  3.  (10613.53)
    Actually, Nygaard prompted me, at least, to analyze my own critical approach to art to see whether I am simply acting to prop up my own particular social group. So, it at least encouraged some self-reflection. I guess that counts as something of value.

    ...The thread should probably still be nuked from orbit, though.
    •  
      CommentAuthorcity creed
    • CommentTimeApr 17th 2012
     (10613.54)
    Agreed, Nygaard's last paragraph puts this entire thread into perspective, tears and all.
    •  
      CommentAuthorStoto
    • CommentTimeApr 17th 2012 edited
     (10613.55)
    I often struggle to understand why I disproportionately hate so many things in popular culture, so another thumbs up for Nygaard's point.

    Regardless of the actual value or shittyness of any attempt to please esthetically, denouncing a work often says more about how you regard yourself or want to be percieved that the actual work. My guess is that this connection with the personal, our ongoing assembly of a self-image, is also what provokes those impulsive thought-feelings of outraged "this stuff is an insult to my intelligence and that of all sentient life ever"...
    • CommentAuthorflecky
    • CommentTimeApr 18th 2012
     (10613.56)
    @ oddbill: Thank you.
    •  
      CommentAuthormister hex
    • CommentTimeApr 18th 2012
     (10613.57)
    Auto-Tune makes you sound like you're getting bum-fucked by Peter Frampton's robot.

    Look, "Art" or whatever has to make money. Disney lost 200 million clams on John Carter - but they made more than enough from the Depleted Uranium Division to off-set the loss. Let's hear it for diversification!

    @ bill - yeah, Warren would've killed this faster than a pedo on his first night in jail.
  4.  (10613.58)
    @mister hex - That would be unremarkable, I imagine a pedo on his first night in jail would not have killed this thread very fast at all.
  5.  (10613.59)
    MISSING: Whitechapel Arse Eels - Last seen Apr 9th 2012. If seen, do not approach. Please contact Whitechapel administrators at once. The eels are missed and are gravely needed.

    thank you.
    • CommentAuthorcjstevens
    • CommentTimeApr 18th 2012
     (10613.60)
    Not wishing to keep this floating like a stubborn turd but I am grateful for the constructive responses..not wishing to argue with oddbill (whose artwork is just superb) but I do think positive things were achieved here. I have never 'trolled' before anyhow, anywhere -this was my therapy.

    (EELS+MAGGOTS/GENITALIA)=Self-Administered