Whitechapel - Smoking Licence Required... 2013-05-24T04:29:52-07:00 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/ Lussumo Vanilla & Feed Publisher Smoking Licence Required... http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1077&Focus=23966#Comment_23966 2008-02-18T15:27:13-08:00 2008-05-23T10:14:53-07:00 cjstevens http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1610 OK proposals for a smoking licence have been suggested by the ministerial advisory board called Health England.. I know this concept probably made Warren have a mental breakdown but fear not, the ... For smokers or anyone with a sense of humour gland this is essential reading. Check it out people:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/feb/18/guardiancolumnists]]> Smoking Licence Required... http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1077&Focus=23967#Comment_23967 2008-02-18T15:44:29-08:00 2008-02-18T15:45:19-08:00 Pete Martin http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=165 and yet there is never a licence for drinkers, stopping people getting absolutely twatted and turning otherwise nice bars into twatfarms by having it taken* off you the moment you become a ...
In short, i've had to avoid drunks 99 times than a smoker.

*by a bouncer. After he's broken your hands over his knee.]]> Smoking Licence Required... http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1077&Focus=23969#Comment_23969 2008-02-18T15:55:59-08:00 2013-05-24T04:29:52-07:00 tedcroland http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2106 The Law=Universally agreed upon morality dealing in physical, emotional or material harm between separate parties (or tries to be). Common Decency=Suggested ways to interact with people so you ...
Common Decency=Suggested ways to interact with people so you aren't called a cunt and get a fucking black eye.

What is it that these people are missing about this? Next it will be illegal to not cover your face when you sneeze.]]> Smoking Licence Required... http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1077&Focus=23973#Comment_23973 2008-02-18T16:14:54-08:00 2013-05-24T04:29:52-07:00 TechnocratJT http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=558 Rights issues aside here, is the idea that smokers can be annoyed out of smoking then ? Smoking Licence Required... http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1077&Focus=23975#Comment_23975 2008-02-18T16:16:09-08:00 2013-05-24T04:29:52-07:00 ChrisSick http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=530 I like that he doesn't want to ban smoking entirely, as that would just create more contraband for criminals to traffic in. He just wants to make it really, really hard for consenting adults to do ... really, really hard for consenting adults to do what they like. Brilliant. That C.S. Lewis quote was worth the price of admission alone.]]> Smoking Licence Required... http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1077&Focus=23977#Comment_23977 2008-02-18T16:20:19-08:00 2013-05-24T04:29:52-07:00 ChrisSick http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=530 J, that seems to be the idea, here in the States most states(and the Feds) have levied huge taxes on cigarettes in the hopes that a finical discouragement would be enough to get people to quit. So ...
I know not what others may say, but as for me, you'll get my cigarettes after you've taken my whiskey and my guns. Good luck.]]> Smoking Licence Required... http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1077&Focus=23978#Comment_23978 2008-02-18T16:22:18-08:00 2013-05-24T04:29:52-07:00 alwayscrashing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=162 Never going to happen. Just a loose-jawed quango chairman coming up with unworkable ideas. It must be a slow-news day for the media to have even paid attention to him.
Just a loose-jawed quango chairman coming up with unworkable ideas. It must be a slow-news day for the media to have even paid attention to him.]]> Smoking Licence Required... http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1077&Focus=23980#Comment_23980 2008-02-18T16:23:28-08:00 2013-05-24T04:29:52-07:00 alwayscrashing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=162 Also.... they already tax the bloody fuck out of cigarettes. I had an American girlfriend who smoked many years ago. The price of them here nearly made her faint.
I had an American girlfriend who smoked many years ago. The price of them here nearly made her faint.]]> Smoking Licence Required... http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1077&Focus=23982#Comment_23982 2008-02-18T16:28:06-08:00 2013-05-24T04:29:52-07:00 ChrisSick http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=530 Yeah, I was in London a few years back and the price scared my spine out of me, worse even than the NYC which is among the worst in this country. Smoking Licence Required... http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1077&Focus=23986#Comment_23986 2008-02-18T16:33:51-08:00 2013-05-24T04:29:52-07:00 oneofsixbillion http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2473 There are not enough curse words for how angry this makes me. Smoking Licence Required... http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1077&Focus=23998#Comment_23998 2008-02-18T17:22:58-08:00 2013-05-24T04:29:52-07:00 Egon http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=698 They'd be better off with just raising prices. That's what got me to quit, if that's what their game is. Smoking Licence Required... http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1077&Focus=24002#Comment_24002 2008-02-18T17:35:31-08:00 2013-05-24T04:29:52-07:00 ravnos http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=644 Doesn't really affect me unless I visited england, but might I recommend lashing him to a bus and dragging him for a mile or two? Smoking Licence Required... http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1077&Focus=24010#Comment_24010 2008-02-18T18:25:52-08:00 2013-05-24T04:29:52-07:00 screaming meat http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1219 God bless the brooker. I'm just waiting for the introduction of double-speak although I've noticed it in American Teen-speak which makes me angry-mad. Smoking Licence Required... http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1077&Focus=24028#Comment_24028 2008-02-18T20:13:49-08:00 2013-05-24T04:29:52-07:00 ChrisSick http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=530 The problem with raising prices, Oct, was illustrated beautifully in NJ, where they kept increasing the cigarette taxes and rather than invest the money in anti-smoking campaigns aimed at teens and ... Smoking Licence Required... http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1077&Focus=24262#Comment_24262 2008-02-19T14:22:19-08:00 2013-05-24T04:29:52-07:00 ravnos http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=644 @ screaming meat: I try to ignore teen-speak over here as much as possible, but I notice it too when they manage to be screaming louder than my headphones on the train... makes me want to rid the ... I try to ignore teen-speak over here as much as possible, but I notice it too when they manage to be screaming louder than my headphones on the train... makes me want to rid the planet of their foul-essence...]]> Smoking Licence Required... http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1077&Focus=24290#Comment_24290 2008-02-19T16:12:39-08:00 2013-05-24T04:29:52-07:00 Kosmopolit http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1346 So let's see, Le Grand mentioned this idea during a radio interview. There's little to no evidence whatsoever it has even been raised with government. Essentially, its a beat-up by a ... radio interview.

There's little to no evidence whatsoever it has even been raised with government.

Essentially, its a beat-up by a "smoker's rights group" that probably get 90% of their budget from RJ Reynolds.]]> Smoking Licence Required... http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1077&Focus=24294#Comment_24294 2008-02-19T16:22:01-08:00 2013-05-24T04:29:52-07:00 muse hick http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=483 they wheel this shit out once in a while because smokers are easier to tackle than real criminals -- try and appear as if you winning some battles because you can't win any others. poking at addicts ... Smoking Licence Required... http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1077&Focus=24341#Comment_24341 2008-02-19T18:36:22-08:00 2013-05-24T04:29:52-07:00 JoeViturbo http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1360 They aren't requiring licenses to smoke in America (yet) but they are beginning to severely restrict the availability of places to smoke. I'm from Ohio and while I do not smoke, I was terribly ... no smoking laws in America]]> Smoking Licence Required... http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1077&Focus=24369#Comment_24369 2008-02-19T21:37:22-08:00 2013-05-24T04:29:52-07:00 smerwin http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2420 @JoeViturbo: Criminy. Ohio too? I was there a couple years ago and loved that we didn't have to go out in the wet to smoke.
Criminy. Ohio too? I was there a couple years ago and loved that we didn't have to go out in the wet to smoke.]]> Smoking Licence Required... http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1077&Focus=24418#Comment_24418 2008-02-20T02:52:49-08:00 2013-05-24T04:29:52-07:00 pi8you http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=628 That's an ugly list, good thing I don't smoke! Recently though, I read about a bar at some point north here in Minnesota that has cleverly circumvented the smoking ban. Once a month(or week?), they ... Smoking Licence Required... http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1077&Focus=24420#Comment_24420 2008-02-20T03:17:37-08:00 2013-05-24T04:29:52-07:00 Lucifal http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=376 Humbug! I found the article all very childish. But then I'm an ex smoker of almost 20 years. And, throw me out of the forums if you will, but I DO find smoking offensive. But then aren't we all ... Smoking Licence Required... http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1077&Focus=24431#Comment_24431 2008-02-20T04:59:01-08:00 2013-05-24T04:29:52-07:00 ChrisSick http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=530 You can find smoking offensive all you want, I find vapid celebrity to be offensive. You don't see anyone outlawing Paris Hilton, do you? Smoking Licence Required... http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1077&Focus=24438#Comment_24438 2008-02-20T06:19:22-08:00 2013-05-24T04:29:52-07:00 curb http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1334 You can find smoking offensive all you want, I find vapid celebrity to be offensive. You don't see anyone outlawing Paris Hilton, do you? This cuts to the heart of the issue for me - there seems ... You can find smoking offensive all you want, I find vapid celebrity to be offensive. You don't see anyone outlawing Paris Hilton, do you?

This cuts to the heart of the issue for me - there seems to be a lot of confusion as to whether smoking should be banned in public on grounds of public health, or simply because it bothers people. I currently smoke, but that doesn’t mean I want to contribute to a barman getting cancer in 20 years time as a result of secondary smoke inhalation . I also feel that it's a lot easier to quit smoking when you can go for a pint without being in an environment that facilitates your addiction. Those, I would say, are two good reasons for banning smoking in pubs and restaurants.

But smoking in bus shelters? On train platforms? The only harm being caused here is to people's increasingly delicate sensibilities. Sure, you may find the smell of a cigarette unpleasant, but guess what? There are a whole lot of things people may find unpleasant about you. As a grown up, I'm able to distinguish the difference between two people discussing something offensive or annoying nearby, and them deliberately insulting me personally. By the same token, non smokers should learn to appreciate the difference between me lighting up in their general vicinity and me blowing a stogie right in their face.

If there's one thing that I find increasingly disturbing about Britain's national psychcology, it's the inability to distinguish between actual harm and mere offense.]]> Smoking Licence Required... http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1077&Focus=24455#Comment_24455 2008-02-20T08:05:34-08:00 2013-05-24T04:29:52-07:00 MagicSword! http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1309 Here in Japan the law is getting tougher on smoking too. This year they're bringing in security cards to stop kids buying cigarettes from machines on the street, which they can now. But not after ... Smoking Licence Required... http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1077&Focus=24458#Comment_24458 2008-02-20T08:46:12-08:00 2013-05-24T04:29:52-07:00 tekende http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1690 Those, I would say, are two good reasons for banning smoking in pubs and restaurants. That ought to be up to individual proprietors of such establishments. If I own a restaurant or bar or ... Those, I would say, are two good reasons for banning smoking in pubs and restaurants.

That ought to be up to individual proprietors of such establishments. If I own a restaurant or bar or whatever, it ought to be up to me, and ME ALONE, to decide whether smoking is allowed there.

Anyone who doesn't like my decision can go somewhere else that caters to their preferences.]]> Smoking Licence Required... http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1077&Focus=24468#Comment_24468 2008-02-20T09:18:09-08:00 2013-05-24T04:29:52-07:00 curb http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1334 That ought to be up to individual proprietors of such establishments. If I own a restaurant or bar or whatever, it ought to be up to me, and ME ALONE, to decide whether smoking is allowed ... That ought to be up to individual proprietors of such establishments. If I own a restaurant or bar or whatever, it ought to be up to me, and ME ALONE, to decide whether smoking is allowed there.

That's fair enough for the customers, but would you not agree that your staff should have some form of protection from secondary smoke? 'If you don't want an increased risk of cancer, go work elsewhere' seems a little harsh to me.

Where I live, there were a couple of bars and restraunts that went smoke free before the ban, and they both folded pretty quickly. As a whole, it seems that the pub trade has suffered as a result of the smoking ban. Allowing individual proprieters to choose whether they allow smoking or not means that those who wish to protect their staff's health will lose out to those who want to make a profit.

So, a fair compromise might be to allow proprieters to choose whether or not they make their venues smoke - free, while at the same time making the 'pro smoking' proprieters pay a proportion of his or her staff's national insurance contributions as compensation for the increased risk the staff are exposed to. That way, employers don't get to compromise their employees' health in the persuit of profit, and non smoking venues will be able to compete on a level playing field with smoking venues.

Of course, I'm expecting someone with a basic knowledge of economics to tear this argument a new asshole...]]> Smoking Licence Required... http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1077&Focus=24498#Comment_24498 2008-02-20T11:04:34-08:00 2013-05-24T04:29:52-07:00 Phro http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2299 MagicSword! security cards!?! the travesty. how will cigarette companies continue the 100% smoking population in japan? (I miss me some death serving vending machinese...) personally, i ...
security cards!?! the travesty. how will cigarette companies continue the 100% smoking population in japan?

(I miss me some death serving vending machinese...)

personally, i like the private owner choosing approach, but i think curb has a good point...

i quit smoking about two months ago, and, personally, i didn't really mind going outside to smoke. what i do mind is the heavy handed nature of how governments are trying to deal with the problem. i would assume that the exhaust from cars is significantly worse that second hand cigarette smoke. but i may be mistaken...]]> Smoking Licence Required... http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1077&Focus=24501#Comment_24501 2008-02-20T11:15:22-08:00 2013-05-24T04:29:52-07:00 jdack http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2145 Unless something has changed in the past 3 months, chart is inaccurate. There are still lots of places in Oregon where you can smoke indoors. Bars mostly, but even the local Sheris restaurant still ... Smoking Licence Required... http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1077&Focus=24506#Comment_24506 2008-02-20T11:50:02-08:00 2008-02-20T11:50:41-08:00 Brent Wilcox http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1653 The chart's not accurate for Alaska these days. No statewide legislation, but as of last June you can't smoke in bars, restaurants, etc in Anchorage. Smoking Licence Required... http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1077&Focus=24509#Comment_24509 2008-02-20T11:56:01-08:00 2013-05-24T04:29:52-07:00 Ariana http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1 Unless something has changed in the past 3 months, chart is inaccurate. There are still lots of places in Oregon where you can smoke indoors.The chart includes legislation through 2011-- OR goes ... Unless something has changed in the past 3 months, chart is inaccurate. There are still lots of places in Oregon where you can smoke indoors.The chart includes legislation through 2011-- OR goes non-smoking January of next year.]]> Smoking Licence Required... http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1077&Focus=24513#Comment_24513 2008-02-20T12:02:09-08:00 2013-05-24T04:29:52-07:00 kittydoom http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=144 See that chart? That's why I love living in North Carolina. They'll never take away smoking here because this is where all the tobacco comes from. We don't have retarded high taxes on cigarettes ... Smoking Licence Required... http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1077&Focus=24527#Comment_24527 2008-02-20T12:53:27-08:00 2013-05-24T04:29:52-07:00 grenacia http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1323 I've never smoked, and I hate being in smoky places, but still I think its stupid the way smoking bans have been handled. Instead of preventing a bar/restaurant/whatever from having a smoking ...
Require a separate ventilation system so smoke doesn't escape into the main area, with exhaust fans to evacuate the smoke from the room out to the alley. When necessary, staff can kick everyone out and vent the smoke out so they can go in and clean. Make it a room that you can bring a drink into, but that the waitstaff won't serve directly, so they won't be required to enter it when its smoky.

Businesses that don't want to go to the trouble can just be non-smoking. Businesses that do will have happy little smokers in their own special room, and happy little non-smokers in the rest of the place.

Instead, here in Minnesota we now have a total ban on indoor smoking areas at bars/restaurants. Businesses have been constructing elaborate outdoor smoking porches, but that's not pleasant on days like today (-1 F, -18 C).]]> Smoking Licence Required... http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1077&Focus=24538#Comment_24538 2008-02-20T13:45:26-08:00 2013-05-24T04:29:52-07:00 orwellseyes http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2119 The truly ridiculous aspect of these bans is that even if you create a place solely for indoor smoking you are subject to more oversight than a damn gun-dealer. There's a "smoking ...
There's a "smoking lounge" here in Chicago that I (as a non-smoker) actually liked going to before the ban, Marshall McGearty. I believe it's run by one of the big tobacco companies. It was actually a very pleasant place to hang out. They had some massive air purifiers running, so it was never smoky at all, actually unless you were right on top of someone you'd never notice the smoke at all. They served decent food and drinks and had comfortable seating. I'm used to pubs, so sitting on a fucking bar stool at most clubs and drink establishments is not nearly as nice as a proper chair or booth. It was a solid hang out place for grown-ups, no kiddies coming in like at the coffee shop and shitting on the floor or eating the walls or whatever it is children do.

But now they can't serve food or drink since by law only 15% of their income can come from non-tobacco purchases. So a place that no one would enter unless they were either a smoker or someone completely fine with smoking has to be buggered up so politicians can feel a sense of accomplishment instead of the usual howling void they have where their hearts once beat.]]> Smoking Licence Required... http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1077&Focus=24543#Comment_24543 2008-02-20T14:05:34-08:00 2013-05-24T04:29:52-07:00 warrenellis http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2 That's fair enough for the customers, but would you not agree that your staff should have some form of protection from secondary smoke? Yeah, because that's absolutely the most dangerous element ... That's fair enough for the customers, but would you not agree that your staff should have some form of protection from secondary smoke?

Yeah, because that's absolutely the most dangerous element in bar work.]]> Smoking Licence Required... http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1077&Focus=24571#Comment_24571 2008-02-20T15:38:32-08:00 2013-05-24T04:29:52-07:00 Benny http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=602 You know what the worst thing I've discovered ever since I quit smoking? It is so. fucking. boring. Everything is god. damn. boring. This wouldn't have bothered me before I picked up the nail, ...
It is so. fucking. boring. Everything is god. damn. boring.

This wouldn't have bothered me before I picked up the nail, but once I've witnessed the fun world of smoking, coming back into sobriety blows.

It is so miserably boring.

And don't bother about Texas, various city legislatures are pushing for a state wide ban. I don't know why, probably has to do with the dicks and cunts that's ruining the fun for everyone under "hyperactive protectionism" realizing that the smokers are having all the fun, and well, they just can't have any of that now, can they?]]> Smoking Licence Required... http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1077&Focus=24573#Comment_24573 2008-02-20T15:52:29-08:00 2013-05-24T04:29:52-07:00 Z http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=184 That's fair enough for the customers, but would you not agree that your staff should have some form of protection from secondary smoke? Yeah, because that's absolutely the most dangerous element ... That's fair enough for the customers, but would you not agree that your staff should have some form of protection from secondary smoke?

Yeah, because that's absolutely the most dangerous element in bar work.


And no one in the restaurant industry smokes. Couldn't possibly have the smokers serve the smokers and the non-smokers serve the non-smokers.

As for the 'clean air' bar.. spare me. That's just trading one vice for another. Neither one is healthy, everything in life'll kill you (is bad for you, causes cancer, etc). I'm with Bourdain's view on smoking in eating establishments.

"[..]as New York City's smoking ban went into effect, whom did CNN book as their anti-ban guest? Bourdain, of course, who said, 'We're in such a headlong rush to become the next Singapore, I find [it] horrifying and completely, well, un-American." His solution was a simple one, and libertarian at that. Let restaurant and bar owners decide whether to permit smoking or not in their venues."

- Z]]> Smoking Licence Required... http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1077&Focus=24575#Comment_24575 2008-02-20T15:59:31-08:00 2013-05-24T04:29:52-07:00 Grimnir http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1507 Ummm, I'm in Oregon right now. Smoking is allowed both in bars that serve food and bars that don't serve food. There's one diner I go to that allows smoking because they have a bar attached. THE ...
Fuck smoking nazis. But that's just my opinion.]]> Smoking Licence Required... http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1077&Focus=24576#Comment_24576 2008-02-20T16:04:26-08:00 2013-05-24T04:29:52-07:00 Mike Black http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=151 I miss smoking and eating hash browns at Waffle House at 3 AM after a night of partying. Florida has failed me. Although I see more and more workplaces every day that have employees smoking away ...
Although I see more and more workplaces every day that have employees smoking away in doors.]]> Smoking Licence Required... http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1077&Focus=24580#Comment_24580 2008-02-20T16:08:36-08:00 2013-05-24T04:29:52-07:00 Z http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=184 There are a number of things at Waffle House more unhealthy than cigarette smoke. For instance, it's Waffle House. - Z it's Waffle House.

- Z]]> Smoking Licence Required... http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1077&Focus=24612#Comment_24612 2008-02-20T17:53:27-08:00 2013-05-24T04:29:52-07:00 curb http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1334 Yeah, because that's absolutely the most dangerous element in bar work. Sure, there are more dangerous elements than smoking. That doesn't mean employers should profit by declining to prevent an ... Yeah, because that's absolutely the most dangerous element in bar work.

Sure, there are more dangerous elements than smoking. That doesn't mean employers should profit by declining to prevent an unnecessary risk to their employees' health.

And no one in the restaurant industry smokes. Couldn't possibly have the smokers serve the smokers and the non-smokers serve the non-smokers.


Works fine as long as restaurants and pubs have equal provision for both smokers and non smokers. However, if the prevailing economic situation means it's more profitable for establishments to cater entirely to smokers, then more venues will do just that. More jobs in the industry for those who smoke, fewer for those who don't. I'm not saying that proprietors shouldn't have the right to allow smoking, just that it's not fair to allow a situation that makes workers choose between a job and better health.]]> Smoking Licence Required... http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1077&Focus=24637#Comment_24637 2008-02-20T19:22:04-08:00 2008-02-20T19:27:43-08:00 Ariana http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1 Okay, here's the thing: I don't want to get eaten, so I've decided not to apply for a job as a dog walker. Now, I fully believe that, instead, the government should allow me to kill people's dogs ...
(Edit: Oh good lord, yes, I'm a smoker. Don't mind me, I'm not even seriously arguing the point. That was 97% just a chance for me to remind you of the serious threats that are being ignored in all this worry over a little bit of smoke.)]]> Smoking Licence Required... http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1077&Focus=24638#Comment_24638 2008-02-20T19:28:33-08:00 2008-02-20T19:30:28-08:00 shansen http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1352 So, a fair compromise might be to allow proprieters to choose whether or not they make their venues smoke - free, while at the same time making the 'pro smoking' proprieters pay a proportion of his ...
So, a fair compromise might be to allow proprieters to choose whether or not they make their venues smoke - free, while at the same time making the 'pro smoking' proprieters pay a proportion of his or her staff's national insurance contributions as compensation for the increased risk the staff are exposed to. That way, employers don't get to compromise their employees' health in the persuit of profit, and non smoking venues will be able to compete on a level playing field with smoking venues.

The fair compromise is that I actually drink at bars(and thus give more tips than I would to said bartenders if I was drinking at my house with friends as an alternative bar) if they let me smoke. Until they actually ban smoking in bars in Indianapolis(that chart isn't exactly accurate, we have smoking in the Casinos too) then I go to bars, when they become an oasis for clean lunged and hard livered establishments of divine health then I drink at home with friends as the alternative setup.

-SH.]]> Smoking Licence Required... http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1077&Focus=24639#Comment_24639 2008-02-20T19:30:33-08:00 2013-05-24T04:29:52-07:00 groonk http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=631 i hate to break it to you but that small little part of Alabama that is Huntsville recently stopped allowing smoking in restaurants. actually, i think they had the businesses make the decision. if ...
as Huntsville goes, so goes the rest of Alabama. even if it is 10-20 years later. :)

i'm a non-smoker, btw.

and dogs have nothing but love for you. unless i tell them otherwise.]]> Smoking Licence Required... http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1077&Focus=24645#Comment_24645 2008-02-20T19:39:48-08:00 2013-05-24T04:29:52-07:00 shansen http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1352 Works fine as long as restaurants and pubs have equal provision for both smokers and non smokers. However, if the prevailing economic situation means it's more profitable for establishments to cater ...
Works fine as long as restaurants and pubs have equal provision for both smokers and non smokers. However, if the prevailing economic situation means it's more profitable for establishments to cater entirely to smokers, then more venues will do just that. More jobs in the industry for those who smoke, fewer for those who don't. I'm not saying that proprietors shouldn't have the right to allow smoking, just that it's not fair to allow a situation that makes workers choose between a job and better health.

Since you're basing this on a very flimsy view of free market economics(including demand).... you're saying no non-smokers drink? So all those ballots are just cranky bastards whining? Or is there a market for non-smoking bars where bartenders, servers, and proprietors could all profit from nonsmokers?

This has as much to do about free market economics as it does anything else. If the demand is truly 50 percent or higher then bars would've already set up prior to a ban that would capitalize on this. And there are already popular bars around here(in Indiana of all places) that are non-smoking due to the employers preference. If this is true in my state then it's true in other places... now if the question is some people don't like the atmosphere of a said bar that's nonsmoking, then that's not very bright. The only business(and employees) that seem to benefit financially off of smoking bans are liquor stores.]]> Smoking Licence Required... http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1077&Focus=24807#Comment_24807 2008-02-21T10:41:05-08:00 2013-05-24T04:29:52-07:00 tekende http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1690 but would you not agree that your staff should have some form of protection from secondary smoke? People with strong concerns about their exposure to secondhand smoke probably aren't going to be ... but would you not agree that your staff should have some form of protection from secondary smoke?

People with strong concerns about their exposure to secondhand smoke probably aren't going to be looking for work in the bartending industry.]]> Smoking Licence Required... http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1077&Focus=24810#Comment_24810 2008-02-21T10:44:39-08:00 2013-05-24T04:29:52-07:00 JP Stargazer http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=603 My grandmother died of cancer before I was born. And she never smoked anything in her life, nor did she drank. My granddad, her husbund, use to smoke, but not very often. Maybe a 20 pack for 2 weeks. ...
There's a point in all of these discussions, but at the same time, there isn't. No matter how much we disscus this, there is an ultimately truth: interest, profit. The companies make profit from smoking, but politicians make profit from non-smoking. Yeah, I may sound naive, but I'm also right!! :P I mean, since when did politicians started to give a shit about people? And, come on, the companies pay wages. Politicians get paid wages. Simple maths? Nah, I'm not even sure what the fuck I'm talking about, but the thing is nothing is made selflessly, without expecting something in return. Specially in politics. There must be some kind of arrengement, I don't know.

But hey, fuck 'em. I'll smoke outside bars if I have to. It's not the end of the world. Personally, I'm more afraid of politicians than the ill effects of smoking.]]> Smoking Licence Required... http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1077&Focus=24819#Comment_24819 2008-02-21T11:16:00-08:00 2008-02-21T11:16:37-08:00 TechnocratJT http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=558 Okay, here's the thing: I don't want to get eaten, so I've decided not to apply for a job as a dog walker.....chance for me to remind you of the serious threats that are being ignored. Cannibal ... Okay, here's the thing: I don't want to get eaten, so I've decided not to apply for a job as a dog walker.....
chance for me to remind you of the serious threats that are being ignored
.

Cannibal dogs: the silent loud yappy angry killer.]]> Smoking Licence Required... http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1077&Focus=24851#Comment_24851 2008-02-21T13:07:27-08:00 2013-05-24T04:29:52-07:00 muse hick http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=483 ]]> Smoking Licence Required... http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1077&Focus=24857#Comment_24857 2008-02-21T13:32:23-08:00 2013-05-24T04:29:52-07:00 Lucifal http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=376 But smoking in bus shelters? On train platforms? The only harm being caused here is to people's increasingly delicate sensibilities. Sure, you may find the smell of a cigarette unpleasant, but guess ... But smoking in bus shelters? On train platforms? The only harm being caused here is to people's increasingly delicate sensibilities. Sure, you may find the smell of a cigarette unpleasant, but guess what? There are a whole lot of things people may find unpleasant about you.

Your right. I've been dying to corner a smoker in a bus shelter and let rip with a really sulferous, Indian and lager induced fart. Like I said, we're all hypocrites.]]> Smoking Licence Required... http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1077&Focus=25266#Comment_25266 2008-02-23T00:29:26-08:00 2013-05-24T04:29:52-07:00 ScottBieser http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=477 Here in Wyoming 3 of the largest towns (we don't actually have cities here) have banned public smoking, and a push to enact a statewide ban failed this year because this is a ...
So, a smoking friend of mine has to take her smoke breaks by standing outside the building in 20-deg-F weather with Cheyenne's howling 30mph winds. I'm sure that's healthy for her.

As Popeye said, "I yam disgustipated."

We should replace the cowboy logo on our license plates with a silhouette of Mary Fucking Poppins.]]> Smoking Licence Required... http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1077&Focus=25299#Comment_25299 2008-02-23T04:56:36-08:00 2013-05-24T04:29:52-07:00 Brad McLoughlin http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=620 I'm pretty sure one of the Canadian provinces allows for pubs and restaurants to choose a smoking or non-smoking license (the smoking license being more expensive). For the general public, fuck ...
For the general public, fuck 'em. If they're going to go to a bar that allows smoking, they can jam it up their asses if they feel like complaining. Just. Don't. Go. If me smoking on the street bothers them, then I should be able to cite their breaches of the "That Deodorant Smells Like Ass Act 2002" and the "Wow. You Really Are A Tool Act 1997"

As for the worker's end of things, does anyone know if any smoking ban/regulations have ever come from genuine complaints from worker's unions or guilds, etc.? Or is this just complete arbitration on the part of the government?

I think the taxes on cigarettes are crazy, considering we pay nearly €7.50 for cigarettes here, and rise in the price of cigarette seems to directly correlate with the decline of attention to the health service.... Plus the fact that governments are essentially slowly shutting down an industry that employs thousands of people...


A quick aside: Tampons and condoms are taxed as luxury items here in Ireland. Is that the same anywhere else?]]> Smoking Licence Required... http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1077&Focus=25972#Comment_25972 2008-02-26T22:32:23-08:00 2013-05-24T04:29:52-07:00 ScottBieser http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=477 The push for these smoking bans (in North Amerika anyway) comes largely from an outfit called the Lindesmith Center, which is primarily funded by Johnson & Johnson, purveyors of nicotine patches ... Smoking Licence Required... http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1077&Focus=25978#Comment_25978 2008-02-26T22:57:51-08:00 2013-05-24T04:29:52-07:00 Ben http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=700 Businesses that don't want to go to the trouble can just be non-smoking. Businesses that do will have happy little smokers in their own special room, and happy little non-smokers in the rest of the ...
Businesses that don't want to go to the trouble can just be non-smoking. Businesses that do will have happy little smokers in their own special room, and happy little non-smokers in the rest of the place.


I'm pretty sure one of the Canadian provinces allows for pubs and restaurants to choose a smoking or non-smoking license (the smoking license being more expensive).


I'm not informed as to the licensing, but there are a number of bars here that have indoor rooms with fans that you can drink in. Unfortunately most of them were just knocked up so they wouldn't lose their barflys and are so obnoxiously loud or nasty dirty that you'd never want to set foot in them long enough to finish your smoke. There are a number of other places that have gone the sheltered patio way though. It is a little bit cold, but as long as I'm not getting pissed on by mother nature I'm happy.]]> Smoking Licence Required... http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1077&Focus=25980#Comment_25980 2008-02-26T23:01:55-08:00 2013-05-24T04:29:52-07:00 Ben http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=700 @ScottBieser I remember there were cigarettes in Korea that were aimed at nonsmokers. They were called Ones and only had a gram of tar in them. Like sucking through a straw without the ...
I remember there were cigarettes in Korea that were aimed at nonsmokers. They were called Ones and only had a gram of tar in them. Like sucking through a straw without the rush.

You can get similar things in Canada, but they're made with higher grade tobacco sos not to cut back too much on your craving intervals. Also, they're marketed towards women, because they're long and pretty.]]> Smoking Licence Required... http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1077&Focus=25999#Comment_25999 2008-02-27T01:04:09-08:00 2013-05-24T04:29:52-07:00 dkostis http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2538 I was a bartender in the first place in Canada (Kitchener-Waterloo, Ontario) to pass an anti-smoking bylaw using the second hand smoke argument. This allowed the bylaw's proponents to make it a ...
Proponents of the bylaw claimed that the service industry staff were crying out for this protection, but petitions and surveys in bars that showed otherwise were not mentioned.

The real issue of personal freedom was completely avoided. Bars and restaurants are privately owned and non-essential. There is never a time when someone must go into one and no one needs to work there. If you consider second hand smoke a risk you can make your own decision on whether or not to enter. The decision to allow an activity should be left to the proprietor, not legislated. A society needs a place where fringe activities can be performed by consensual participants. Disapproval of an act is not justification for making it unlawfull.

You may have noticed at the beginning I mentioned that I was a bartender. The bylaw destroyed the bar industry here. Since we were the only region to not allow smoking, at first many customers just went to neighbouring communities to have a smoke with their beer,though admittedly that didn't last. What really hurt was the bastard way the laws were enforced and how they were constantly altered to reflect their intent. Shortly before the bylaw passed owners were told to install a partitioned and ventilated smoking section.After the expense of complying suddenly they couldn''t use them. You needed an outside shelter beyond the serving area. So they built those. Then it culdn't be enclosed,it needed one wall open. Then two.And remove the roof. Currently you can't smoke on open patios or near the entrance to a liscensed area.You have to go outside (In Canada, where last week it was minus thirty degrees with windchill) or receive a fine larger than you would get for smoking an illegal joint.There is now a fifth as many bars as there use to be and nobody is making the money they used to.

Oh and for the record I've never smoked a cigarette.I use to hide my coat in the beer cooler so it wouldn't stink of smoke and for twenty years I sneezed black crap at the end of my shift. Nobody made me work in bars, I made my own decision to do so.]]> Smoking Licence Required... http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1077&Focus=26170#Comment_26170 2008-02-28T03:32:04-08:00 2013-05-24T04:29:52-07:00 Lucifal http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=376 The smoking ban seems to be killing off bingo halls here in the UK. So not all laws are bad . . . Smoking Licence Required... http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1077&Focus=26629#Comment_26629 2008-03-01T08:50:23-08:00 2008-03-01T08:50:47-08:00 Vetes http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1864 The smoking ban in Maryland just started on Feb. 1. I was talking to a friend that goes to a bar with a lot of smokers and he said that one of the workers said their business dropped 17% since the ...
I'm against the ban. I don't smoke and I see the hazards of it. But it personal freedoms that are being taken away. Each bar should make their own rules. There's a bar that has always been no smoking and gained its own crowd because of that. I've been into plenty of smoking bars and I go if I want. I ultimately do not have to go. That's what it comes down to.

If smoking was so bad for people, then they would outlaw tobacco. It'll never happen.]]> Smoking Licence Required... http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1077&Focus=26716#Comment_26716 2008-03-01T18:20:30-08:00 2013-05-24T04:29:52-07:00 Cyman http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1925 In Calgary, Aberta, the businesses can circumvent the smoking ban by achieving "casino status", which basically means people can legally smoke in your place if you get a VLT. There might be ...
I think there should definitely be places indoors where a person can go sit have a whiskey, a steak and a smoke, but honestly it's not a huge concern to me if we have to stand outside for 5 minutes while they do the last part of that. It's a restriction on personal freedoms, yes definitely, but it's also a restriction on the non-smokers personal freedoms when they can't go have a whiskey and a steak without a smoke second-hand. I just wish there were enough smokers to keep all these rebel bars in business.

It's called "Tyranny of the majority", and if you have any personal interests at all, you won't be happy with the outcome.]]> Smoking Licence Required... http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1077&Focus=27032#Comment_27032 2008-03-02T23:54:30-08:00 2013-05-24T04:29:52-07:00 ReverendJoe http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=129 Here in Maine, smoking is illegal in just about any public place of business. Smoke shops are exempt because it's assumed that people going in are smokers. You can smoke in private clubs, but the ...
Bangor recently passes a law making it illegal to smoke in your car when there is a minor present. The rest of the state is looking to pass the same measure.

I bounced in a titty bar when you could still smoke inside and I don't miss it a bit when I go out, even though I smoke when I'm lit.]]> Smoking Licence Required... http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1077&Focus=27043#Comment_27043 2008-03-03T02:26:21-08:00 2008-03-03T15:16:08-08:00 dkostis http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2538 It's a restriction on personal freedoms, yes definitely, but it's also a restriction on the non-smokers personal freedoms when they can't go have a whiskey and a steak without a smoke second-hand ... It's a restriction on personal freedoms, yes definitely, but it's also a restriction on the non-smokers personal freedoms when they can't go have a whiskey and a steak without a smoke second-hand

I'm sorry Cyman but you're wrong. The non-smokers are not having their freedom resticted by allowing smoking in bars and restaurants. Nor are the smokers losing theirs when smoking is banned.The loss of personal freedom and the loss of personal choice is incurred by the owner of the business.

On private property the proprietor should determine the atmosphere in which business is conducted. A law forcing a business to allow smoking would be just as wrong as one banning it. As would laws requiring or banning certain foods, music, dress, etc. It should be up to the establishment to decide what kind of business they want to run.]]> Smoking Licence Required... http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1077&Focus=27074#Comment_27074 2008-03-03T05:24:02-08:00 2013-05-24T04:29:52-07:00 Kosmopolit http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1346 "You know what the worst thing I've discovered ever since I quit smoking? It is so. fucking. boring. Everything is god. damn. boring. This wouldn't have bothered me before I picked up the ...
It is so. fucking. boring. Everything is god. damn. boring.

This wouldn't have bothered me before I picked up the nail, but once I've witnessed the fun world of smoking, coming back into sobriety blows.

It is so miserably boring."

Benny, I'm the exact opposite. Smoking is one of the few vices I have acquired and not for want of trying.

It's not the cost, its not the health risks, it's not even the coughing fits - for me tobacco is just the dullest drug going.]]> Smoking Licence Required... http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1077&Focus=27989#Comment_27989 2008-03-05T12:21:55-08:00 2013-05-24T04:29:52-07:00 oldmanfactory http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2613 A smoking ban was passed in Minnesota last fall, so imagine my surprise when I found a sign outside the bar my friend's band was playing at that said "tonight's performance features ...
And my friend that works security there said business had nearly doubled since they began allowing smoking again.]]> Smoking Licence Required... http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1077&Focus=28338#Comment_28338 2008-03-06T15:03:16-08:00 2013-05-24T04:29:52-07:00 Cyman http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1925 dkostis, All I'd say is that most owners are more responsive to the market anyway, and because of a few smoking bans coming up in some places, other places are realizing that they could possibly make ...
But surely the non-smokers shouldn't be so whiny. More smoke in the air kills more whiny bitches, and the future is then made better. Smokers-1 Rest of the world- 0.]]> Smoking Licence Required... http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1077&Focus=33604#Comment_33604 2008-03-27T19:29:07-07:00 2008-03-27T19:29:42-07:00 ReverendJoe http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=129 It looks like the ban on smoking in a car with a minor present is going to be implemented statewide here in Maine. Bangor's ban includes anyone under 18, but the state is looking at 16 or under. In ... Smoking Licence Required... http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1077&Focus=33626#Comment_33626 2008-03-27T20:59:23-07:00 2013-05-24T04:29:52-07:00 CDoring http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=493 New York was one of the first states to pass a total ban(I believe there's a ban in Casinos here too now.) I worked in the bar/restaurant business in the Albany area right on through the ban, and ... I worked in the bar/restaurant business in the Albany area right on through the ban, and I'm a heavy smoker to boot. There was an initial drop off of business, and it certainly hurt some smaller places, but things seemed to bounce back after a few months.

Now it's become status quo, everyone I know is used to it. Most of the smokers I know at this point are the hardcores. We don't give a fuck how cold it is, we'll be outside. I traveled to North Carolina last year, and it was weird sitting down in a diner with an ashtray on the table, right there next to the hot sauce. And I couldn't even enjoy it, because I was with my wife, who quit 5 years ago and became a Smoke Nazi. I'm confined to the kitchen in my own home.

Last year they banned all smoking on the grounds of Hospitals or other medical facilities. You actually have to leave the property altogether, or get harassed by security.

-CD]]>