Whitechapel - Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-13T11:58:36-07:00

Been hearing a lot of different views on this and thought I'd bring it over to the collective.

So Amanda Palmer, who recently had a successful Kickstarter campaign scoring 1.2 million for an art book, album and world tour project, has recently asked local musicians to come in and add to the orchestra for free. Well, for merch, beer, fun times and high fives. Her reason is that she can't afford it.

Now...there's a lot I do understand. I know that Amazon and IRS take a big chunk out of kickstarter earnings and I do understand that a lot of the money goes towards the rewards and shipping etc. and tour costs, which at the very least include travel, accommodation, stage set up, equipment rental and so on take a huge chunk and that she is by no means laughing on her way to the bank. I love how cost-effective and local-minded it is to use local musicians for concerts. I also get, with Amanda Palmer's connection to fans, that asking for volunteers to perform may seem less like a way of getting free labour and more like a community thing.

But I always get itchy when I'm offered/asked to do a job where everyone involved except me is being paid. Don't get me wrong, some of the best photo shoots I've done have been volunteer work. The slasher stuff I did last year, for instance, was part of a film crew where no one was getting paid and we all were doing what we were doing because we loved doing it. But in this case, if Amanda is getting paid, the roadies are getting paid, the setup crew is getting paid and even the permanent bare bones band that is travelling with her is getting paid, I would expect some compensation for additional back up players.

Thoughts?

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-13T12:31:19-07:00

I think Amanda can do whatever and if musicians want to be a part of the whatever (and those parties ARE fantastic - I truly wish I had some musical skillz) then more power to them.

However, if I WERE a musician and I tried throwing in my lot with the AFP experience I would ask if I could at least put up a tip jar or pass a hat or get to encourage people to stuff dollar bills into my pockets/waistband/bra. Amanda's never been shy about asking for cash and the whole don't-be-shy thing is her wheelhouse.

So take it as a given that there's no cash from Amanda's side of things. When I last saw her it was in 2008, her back up group toured everywhere with her FOR NOTHING. And at every show they passed hats, boots, etc to collect stray bills so they could eat. So it's not like there's no precedence.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-13T12:38:10-07:00

Heh, I'll reiterate my thoughts, now in Whitechapel form.

It's my argument that asking for volunteers doesn't necessarily have to de-valuate someone's work. I think there's a difference between calling musicians-for-hire and going "Hey, we really need you play for us, but we can't pay, so can you put aside things that could possibly pay and do this for me" and writing a blog post to fans who were likely going to be at the concert anyway and going "Hey, so we have the basic band, but it would be super rad if we could round out the sound for some of the songs, any anyone willing to help out in exchange for merch?"

I think also, and this part sounds cheap, I know, but one has to consider that she's asking her fans for help. Some people get crazy starstruck. Given the outrageous prices some people will pay just for an autograph or photo at SDCC, I'm sure there are some fans who stepped up to volunteer because, in their mind, being able to hang out hang out with her and get high fives and get photos while you're at it is might feel like compensation for them. Again, this depends on the person, and is arguably a super cheap move, but some people are okay with that. Basically a fan, who likely wanted to be there anyway, is getting entry and merch in exchange for their services, rather than paying money for a ticket.

One of my local circus friends frequently needs volunteers to help with his shows, and what he does is "hey, can't afford a ticket to the show but want to see it? Volunteer for us and come watch the show in exchange." There have been times when I've taken him up on that because I couldn't afford a ticket to his show, but could volunteer some of my efforts in exchange for being let into the show to watch. It's a call for help to people who were already planning on spending their time there, and I personally think that's okay. Also to consider is the fact that he asks for volunteers bc the shows never make enough money to pay anyone beyond the performers, if they even make that much. We don't know what Amanda's personal budget is, for all we know if she paid the city-specific volunteers, it would start cutting into the other musicians pay, too. We don't know what the dea is, financially.

Now, whether people are going to accept or disagree with my argument, I'll have this to say:

I DO think she's being unfairly judged. Amanda Palmer is known to fairly pay her artists/musicians when she can. In her blog post about where the kickstarter money went, she even said:

i have to pay the VISUAL artists who joined this amazing art party. i commissioned them all to paint their art, they own it. i’m only BORROWING the art for the art gallery tour — and using the “likeness” (the digital copy) for the album/book/etc. packaging – and then returning the art to the artist to keep. still, i paid them all. add another $20-25k there. i feel very good about giving them all that money.

People are judging her as if she is someone who profited 1.2mil from kickstarter and is unwilling to use it to ever pay musicans bc she's too cheap to pay them. Such is not the case. If she is to be condemned for asking for help, it should at least be done knowing that 1) The kickstarter money was all used on the incentives and the album, 2) she fairly pays artists when she can, and 3) she is respecting peoples' decision to not volunteer for her show because don't play for free. It's not like she's bitching at the people who are unwilling to play for her for free.

Also, as a twitter friend of mine pointed out, why did't anyone bitch this much when Weezer did the same thing last year? Again, unfair judgement on AFP. People love hating her. It's okay when Weezer does it but not Amanda? That said, maybe there was bitching about Weezer doing it but I just missed it bc I don't follow them, but I do follow AFP.

All that said, I do still respect peoples' decisions to never do work for free. That's okay. But I also think it's okay to ask for volunteers and then take what help you can get when you feel like you need it.

edited to add to Raz: Yeah, that circus friend of mine who I've volunteered for before let me keep tips. I was helping serve alcohol to people in theme costume (that shaman costume I posted in one of the past Draw Eachothers), so in addition to getting to see the show while I worked, I also made a little bit of money on the side, but not from the show revenue.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-13T12:47:50-07:00

Argos, yeah, I don't really get the people who think that she has 1.2 million just for the tour. The immediate deductions (a big chunk), creating the rewards and sending them out (another big chunk), along with all the costs of a tour of 35 dates (as someone who works in the music business I can say that that's a REALLY huge fucking chunk) there still is a good chance that Amanda will just get the amount she started off with after ticket sales and even then she may be paying out of her own pocket after all is said and done. And hey, to even make things more similar any convention I've ever gone to, huge or small, is made up of volunteers. There's just something about this that seems off to me and feels like a step backward. I like Raz's thought, that if the musicians were allowed to pass a hat around. I think if Amanda did that fans at the area would without question put a few bucks in.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-13T12:48:38-07:00

i dont 'love to hate' her (im actually a huge DRESDEN DOLLS fan), but my two cents can be summed up in

$5000 house shows.

fuck all of this.

:)

EDIT:

as someone who works in the music business I can say that that's a REALLY huge fucking chunk

not when you are selling out most/all of your dates and have a fairly sizable guarantee, honestly. when you are that size (selling out mid-tier rooms in 35 cities IS pretty big for totally indie stuff) touring becomes pretty self sufficient monetarily

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-13T13:01:48-07:00

That this woman managed to raise 1.2 million on Kickstarter for a single album but couldn't figure out how to set aside even $150K of that to pay musicians is appalling to me. I know it's not for the tour, but with intelligent budgeting and forethought, she could have set aside even 10% of that. Or figured out how to raise more money to pay musicians. This sends the wrong message. I've already said a bunch about this in other online venues.

Amanda Palmer also just rubs me the wrong way on a personal level. I find her REALLY fucking irritating (an opinion I know many people here do not share). Too much forced whimsy and not enough substance in my view.

In closing, I'll leave you with Steve Albini's words:

I have no fundamental problem with either asking your fans to pay you to make your record or go on tour or play for free in your band or gather at a mud pit downstate and sell meth and blowjobs to each other. I wouldn’t stoop to doing any of them myself, but horses for courses. The reason I don’t appeal to other people in this manner is that all those things can easily pay for themselves, and I value self-sufficiency and independence, even (or especially) from an audience.

If your position is that you aren’t able to figure out how to do that, that you are forced by your ignorance into pleading for donations and charity work, you are then publicly admitting you are an idiot, and demonstrably not as good at your profession as Jandek, Moondog, GG Allin, every band ever to go on tour without a slush fund or the kids who play on buckets downtown.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-13T13:04:42-07:00

@dork, that's kind of my thoughts. And actually, the kickstarter was for the book, album AND tour so I have to wonder if it was just incredibly bad money management or aiming a little too high on the rewards.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-13T13:12:06-07:00

Re: it devaluing a person's work, I do work for certain friends for free all the time, but that's because they LITERALLY cannot afford to pay me. If they offer, I'll take an incredibly reduced fee, but it doesn't devalue the work. It might de-prioritize it because I'll have to do shit that pays me money, but that's INCREDIBLY DIFFERENT.

Amanda Palmer is NOT someone who has to ask people for favors like this. She can either afford to pay musicians or she can use her very large and, as she's proven, very giving fan base to help pay them. She could still have sourced musicians from fans only she could have paid them for their time and effort as well, and not just in hugs.

(I threw up in my mouth a little typing that last sentence)

I can't possibly credit this to just bad money management. It was also just bad judgment. Even if she mismanaged the Kickstarter shit, she still could have figured something out. Given the rabid nature of her fandom, I think she could have appealed to them successfully.

I dunno, from a professional musician this is pretty appallingly unaware.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-13T13:23:21-07:00

From a NYT article, Amanda Palmer's reaction to the criticism.

She said the players joining her band were there because “they fundamentally believe it’s worth their time and energy to show up at this gig.” As a working musician, she added, she absolutely believes regular players on a long tour should be paid salaries, as are the three other band members in her Grand Theft Orchestra.

Ms. Palmer also said that she could not afford to pay the extra musicians she requests, a string quartet and three or four sax and brass players. The cost, she said, would be around $35,000 for all the tour dates.

They also referred to the money Ms. Palmer had raised. But in the interview, she stressed that most of it went toward recording expenses and the costs of promotion and touring.

“To me it seems absurd. If my fans are happy and my audience is happy and the musicians on stage are happy, where’s the problem?”

I'm a bit weirded out that promotion is such a huge expense for her. I'm totally simplifying it, but Isn't it not uncommon that she can sell out a show with just a few tweets?

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-13T13:40:43-07:00

Everything about Amanda Palmer is about trying to do more. Argos hits the nail on the head with saying she was trying to source musicians from the fans already trying to get to her shows. I read a thing on in the New York Times about this kerfuffle and I think it's telling that the people who are blatantly against it aren't fans of hers.

It's ok, take a deep breath. If you already don't want to go to the show this isn't an opportunity you're missing.

I'll repeat my first sentence, "Everything about Amanda Palmer is about trying to do more." It isn't to try to convince anyone, people who disapprove will carry on disapproving.

But it is THE Amanda Palmer thing to just gather people around wherever she happens to be and play music and sing and then maybe open her ukelele case and ask for whatever people feel like pitching in. Sometimes it's a $20, sometimes it's a couple nickles, sometimes it's a torn piece of paper with the words "I love you!!!" That is the AFP. That is her whole thing. And she will always try to reach past what she's acquired.

Her initial kickstarter goal was $100K, not a million. She was originally going to try a small tour with just a piano and ask for help (like she always has) for anything else she needed. That she can now have a band and do more dates is exciting, but I'm not shocked at all that she would try to reach past even that.

I dunno, it can be poor business sense, but making the money has always seemed to me to be besides the point. I have given up so much of my time to work with my theatre company for pennies (or more usually, for nothing) all because I believe in what we do. I know the agony of asking artists to join us for pennies or for nothing because we just don't have any money but we want to reach past the the meager resources we do have. We raise money from our friends and apply to grants and get help from the city and as often as not end up putting our own money in the pot, but we constantly reach past what our bottom line says we can afford. And in return we create work that we can stand behind with pride.

Six of one, half dozen the other? My parents sure don't understand why I kill myself to do theatre when I make no money. And that's to say nothing of the fact that there are many other companies that don't pay a dime and I would not waste my time with them because I don't fall in line with their aesthetic.

I suggest this is a point of view. If it bugs you to put in your hard earned skills to an event for no monetary return, then don't do it. By all means, bend your efforts toward paying gigs! (I'm also a writer, but I'm not writing for free for anyone but myself. Period.) But from the POV of a fan, that sounds like so much fun I'd be an idiot to not try out my luck with them. I love that Amanda always strives for more. If her reach exceeds her grasp, so be it. But it's better to have tried. At least, I find it inspirational.

I mean... I just don't get the judgment like it's a personal insult. If it's not the gig for you, cool. Don't stop looking for the gigs that are for you. You deserve the life you seek; hell yeah artists & musicians deserve to get paid. So if you feel better off passing then I respect that as knowing who you are and what you're after.

ETA: @Oldhat - she might sell out shows, but I can't say that it's the regular thing. (I wouldn't even know where to look for hard numbers, but I wanted to speak to the speculation.) I think from what I've heard from tweets and occasional concert reviews, they get sold out when Neil Gaiman is on the bill with her. But even then she didn't sell out her New Year's Eve show with the Boston Pops. Her current US and Europe tour is on sale and only a handful of *Europe's* shows are sold out. US dates may eventually sell out, but it's been a few days already....

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-13T13:41:35-07:00

If she's getting paid for the gig, then the other musicians should get paid. If she is doing this for "shits and giggles" and not getting paid either, then fine. Pretty simple equation if you ask me.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-13T13:42:01-07:00

This is part of a wider debate, particularly in the same year that the olympics didn't pay performers. I think as artists, as most people on Whitechapel are (whether writers, musicians or visual artists) we have a responsibility to set our own standards of what we will accept, set a cut off point and not betray that. Working for no financial reward can be justified if there is some other kind of payoff, for example exposure or connections. Remember plenty of people pay to be published, play in venues, exhibit art. if these artists are local musicians who normally have to pay to play in venues then maybe this is a good opportunity to raise their profile. While some people may feel justified to level criticism at Amanda Palmer I also think artists have to man up and make that decision based on their own judgement.
TBH for many people starting up it could be a good opportunity compared to slugging around dive venues that charge to pay or use flyer deals etc so bands end up out of pocket.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-13T13:59:01-07:00

i'm sorry but if i couldn't afford to pay a string quartet, i'd just load the album session tracks up on a laptop and not have musicians i can't pay on stage

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-13T13:59:23-07:00

The problem I have with it is coming from the fact that my industry has already been torn up by companies crowdsourcing artwork.

This is like the early days of creative contests, where professionals were beginning to be devalued of their work, replaced by bidding sites to accept the lowest pay for the same amount of work.

And when that message comes from someone who insists that her efforts should be rewarded, but others' should accept hugs and being part of "the experience", then it's a bit of cognitive dissonance.

If this was for a ninja show or something for free, I'd think this was a fantastic tour idea. But this is a for profit venture. And if we don't set standards for people getting paid then it's going to become a similar clusterfuck of lots of people doing more work with a lot less of a chance to make a living off it. So yea, people can use their time and skills as they see fit, but I'm not going to back down about the potential harm to an industry when I've already seen it.

Additionally, it kind of irks me with the whole defense of "well, you'd do free work for a friend". Except that like, I support my friends. I do work for their events for free or significantly reduced fees that just covers my materials when they do free work for me. If it's models or musicians, I pass around hats/tip jars to ensure they get something. If I'm making them come out with me, I cover transportation even if I can't cover their time. I feel like so many people will just do it because of her celebrity with this feeling like "oh, we're friends now" but that's not really the case and that's where it starts to come off as exploitive. It's taking something personal and making it impersonal for her monetary gain.

If it was any other company or major group doing it, people would be speaking out. Amanda Palmer has cultivated a really great community and following and I feel like people give her a lot more of a pass because she works to develop a rapport with her fans. But objectively, that doesn't make what she's doing any less skeevy than someone who is more distant from their wider fan base. So I'm not keen on letting her off the hook just because she's a good person.

Pay the people whose efforts are making you money. Why do we still have to fight for this in the arts?

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-13T14:01:13-07:00

So playing a bit of Devil's advocate what about performances with audience participation, interactive theatre? The audience are paying but are integral to the show and are paying for the experience. Is there a difference?

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-13T14:03:04-07:00

im gonna go out on a limb and say anyone who refers to her as 'AFP' probably doesnt agree with me on a LOT of things

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-13T14:08:17-07:00

@Steve Toase - never seen audience participation require carting your personal large musical instrument or rehearsals or learning anything more than a simple clap rhythm/call & repeat. Or being called in to replace any kind of professional anything, really.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-13T14:12:39-07:00

Fair point.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-13T14:18:54-07:00

@Glukakke:

YES. YES YES YES YES YES.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-13T14:21:02-07:00

@glukkake - Amanda has asked if people would bring things to shows, but more usually her "ninja" gigs. It's always been for the hell of it. She's had people offer out of the blue to come play cello for the audiences as they come to the venue before a concert and she's happily accepted. It turns the event into a happening - it's not like the people who are thinking of seeing Amanda Palmer and the Grand Theft Orchestra are much swayed by the chance to see a session saxophonist, but it's cool to get to know a local musician with some chops.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-13T14:33:24-07:00

@razrangel as I said, for ninja gigs & free events, this is a fantastic way to make shit happen and run around doing events in multiple cities. If this was an outsider busking at her concert thing so they'd get paid while also performing, cool. She is specifically calling for people to work for free while she does not have to pay them. Difference.

PS: I'm out on business for the rest of the night (ok, drunk business). I look forward to seeing responses and continuing the dialogue but just wanted to clarify I'm not rage quitting, no matter how grumpy I sound in these posts :P I loved the way Argos framed this situation last night on twitter with me as a barter system for attending the events, which is an interesting perspective.
Someone please continue this & play my role as a harumph-aphant.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-13T14:44:40-07:00

@glukkake: fuck. yes.

My big issue with this is that it's not helping a friend who can't afford it. It's not an otherwise free or bare bones concert where no one else is getting paid and just doing it for fun. It's a situation where every single person in the room is getting paid except you, and for someone who is all for supporting artists and is expecting to get money out of this herself, that's a bit skeevy. It does come across very much like the "design our logo" contests big companies put up for designers, with the only payment being recognition.

And my other problem is that the kickstarter was supposed to go in part towards the tour, with her promise of the more money she gets the more astounding it will be. Even with the deductions, people are still paying to attend these concerts. $35,000 is a good chunk of change for musicians, I agree. But if she knew that she needed those musicians I do feel that she should have budgeted for it.

I agree with what glu said to raz. If this was a ninja show I think it would be a fantastic way to go about things. But this is a fully funded tour with ticket sales not factored in yet, not a free show with a tip jar.

Also, there seems to be a view that people opposed to this are opposed to working for free in any case and I don't think that's accurate.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-13T15:32:07-07:00

Here's a thing: one piece that quoted Albini's argument said the thing I suspect a lot were thinking and mostly haven't said out loud... why isn't Gaiman paying for this? he's, like, rich and stuff...

Which is a fucking awful thing to say about a couple, IMO. The sheer presumption of it...

At the same time, I agree with Robin & co - it's not out of keeping with her MO at all, but it feels like a big misstep. And I can't nail down why. I think it's something to do with the disparity of the huge Kickstarter followed by yet another call for freebies and fan support. Cognitive dissonance.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-13T15:34:01-07:00

I'm pretty ok with the idea that we're not going to change any body's minds. There's the anti-opnion, there's the pro-opinion. There are opinions in between.

But why can't any attempts be made to see this from the other's perspective. I totally get that the artist should be paid, and that it's weird to ask people to add in their skills for a better, more filled out show but at the same time not to expect to be paid in hard cash, like everyone else in the show. I can see that point of view and I get it.

I get it at my theatre too - it kills me to ask for good quality work while expecting the ideal artist is a kid out of art/drama school who's talented enough to meet our expectations, but isn't yet established enough to command a certain price point. I would much rather have the cash to pay them. But at the same time the alternative is going without that work. When we can't find a good Web graphics person to basically work for free then the artistic director (who is usually also producing and sometimes acting in the shows) steps in, even though we all know that's not where his particular talents lie. I wish we had the money to always be able to hire someone talented and pay them what they're worth but we don't. But the alternative of skipping that step is just not doable.

Why is it expected that people looking for artists must try to understand what the artists need but there is no attempt to see it the other way? It costs you nothing, you can still reject the gig, it's all good. But I'm just not seeing the people who are anti- cattle call for musicians make any attempt to see what the draw might be.

Or is this just stating your position and pretending like we're having a conversation but really we're just posturing and clapping the people who agree with us on the back?

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-13T15:51:33-07:00

But if she knew that she needed those musicians I do feel that she should have budgeted for it.

I'm not so sure that she needs them so much as she accepts that her touring band doesn't consist of them and knows that her fans love to be involved so she is offering fans a chance to get onstage, hang out with a band they like, party, and get some free merch. I can't the be the only one who thinks that as a fan (of music in general), that would be a fucking fantastic opportunity and a hell of a lot of fun. I just think she's offering folks a chance to be involved as fans not as hired help.

Now, if she threatened to cancel the shows without support from free musicians that's one thing, but she's not. I remember in high school, a good friend of mine got pulled onstage to play guitar at a concert we were at and it was a great experience. I don't see it as a chance to beg for free help so much as an offer to give fans an opportunity for a unique experience to brag about.

Of course, I'm also not a musician of any kind so this sentiment doesn't affect my "field" at all so I'm not as invested in it. I can see where others are coming from. Myself, I'm just a bit disappointed that the album didn't turn out very well (mebbe Albini should have engineered and produced it :P )

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-13T16:23:01-07:00

@ Cat - I was JUST about to ask "Where's Neil?" I don't have a dog in this fight but I've worked for free (A LOT) and it sucks. It really sucks. Yes, you're just a "cog in a big wheel" and HEY! We "gave" you lunch and a "wrap party" and PLUS! you agreed to do it so what's the problem?

She. Is. Married. To. A. Millionaire.

She's not living a hard-scrabble life, in the back of a van, eating ramen noodles and day-old ketchup packets. SHE HAS FANS, people who will DO ANYTHING for her. AND! A millionaire husband, a house, a car, a bus, whatever. YES, touring is exhausting and expensive butthat's the life you've chosen, innit? And playing rhythm guitar for Amanda Palmer would look GREAT on a c.v. Know what'd be better? THAT and a few bucks.

You want to tour? Great. Crowdfunding? L'Chaim. Get the fans involved? Sure, why not? NOT PAY THEM? Smart business decision (maybe) but fuck, man, that shit is reprehensible.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-13T16:39:55-07:00

I've read this entire thread and I can't find any issue either way to latch on to.

Sometimes I feel like this entire forum operates at a level way above my mental capacity. This is one of those times.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-13T16:48:13-07:00

There's a huge difference between 'come and jam' and 'I expect a performance to this standard and you to do this, that and turn up here are this time and yadda, yadda etc 'sgotta be right how I want'.

The first is 'okay, cool, if no other shit comes up, sure', the second is 'fuck you, pay me'.

I'm not entirely sure which this is.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-13T16:50:15-07:00

Okay, I'll add one more thing. And i'd like to stress that I'm doing this for the sake of discussion, because I think everyone's points are valid even if we don't agree.

Amanda asked for help on her blog. This means she was targeting her audience, people who were likely already going to go see her, or wanted to see her, or whatever. She was targeting her FANS. Now, for someone who isn't a fan, asking them to do work for free does suck. But when you target your fans, it changes, it almost becomes a barter. I've been to big arena shows and sat in nose bleeder seats because that was all I could afford. But you know what other ticket options there were? $500 to get a ticket somewhere in the front ten rows, and go back stage briefly for a super quick photo with the band. For some FANS, a front row seat + photo is worth a whopping $500 dollars. Now let's look at Amanda Palmer, for some FANS, being able to hang out with her and getting some merch is worth their musical efforts. See how it changes when it's a fan helping out instead of a musician who couldn't care less for her music? She specifically targeted her fans (cos really, who else reads her blog?), she didn't post fliers around the town saying "musicians needed, can't pay."

Again, I understand the argument that doing so still devalues someone's abilities, but I will even go so far as to argue that if suddenly people think it's okay to not pay musicians bc Amanda Palmer didn't, that's not her fault so much as it is society's fault. My eye doctor waived my retinal photo fee because i was a new patient. If I were to decide after that that I will only ever accept retinal photography if it's free, is that his fault? No, that's my fault for being a fucking cheap ass. My current masseuse gave me my first massage free as part of a promotion, which is how I got to know her. Is it her fault if I only ever accept massages for free after that? No, it's my fault for being a cheap ass. Same with the Amanda Palmer deal. I think that when people take this as a cue that it's okay to not pay artists, it's a symptom of an even deeper societal problem. Namely, that society as a whole is too much of a fucking cheap ass to not want to pay artists when they are able to. It's why so many people download music.

I'll also argue again, that she's taking what help she can get, and not demanding service from people who only make a living off as a musician. I'm sure some of those people have to be people who make a living doing something completely different and just play on the side for fun (I knew many who did when I played clarinet. I was in a community concert band and I remember our lead saxophonist was a cop as his paying job, and did sax on the side for fun). Now, I'm not saying that just because someone plays primarily for fun that their skills are worth less, but arguing that in such cases, there are people who are financially comfortable enough to be willing to volunteer their services, especially for someone they are a fan of. Unfortunately, people are getting caught up in the fact that she asked for "professional-ish" musicians, when what she really meant was "be able to show up and play the music well after a brief rehearsal."

As for the "this would be better if she let them get tips," maybe the only reason they're not getting tips is because no one thought of it? I haven't heard anything about her saying they're not allowed to ask for tips. I personally don't know, but just because they're not getting them doesn't mean she's not allowing them.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-13T16:59:48-07:00

I'm not so sure that she needs them so much as she accepts that her touring band doesn't consist of them and knows that her fans love to be involved so she is offering fans a chance to get onstage, hang out with a band they like, party, and get some free merch. I can't the be the only one who thinks that as a fan (of music in general), that would be a fucking fantastic opportunity and a hell of a lot of fun. I just think she's offering folks a chance to be involved as fans not as hired help.

That's how I'm seeing it. She doesn't need the volunteer bands, so she didn't budget for them. All she really needs is her keyboard, which is what her most recent tours have been. Then she got enough to keep the Grand Theft Orchestra for the tour in addition to the record. Then she thought "oh hey, wouldn't a string quartet and horns be really cool, too. Oh shit I can't budget for that, well, maybe the fans will want to get involved." Now, I realize I could be wrong, but being familiar with how she does things, it's my assumption that such is the case. It not much different than a kickstarter where someone goes "now that's a great idea, I would love to see it in action, so I'll donate." Only in this case it's "now that would sound really cool, and I was planning on being there anyway, and I want to see this in action, so I'll volunteer." And then the fan has an amazing time because they got to play with someone they admire.

Now, if she threatened to cancel the shows without support from free musicians that's one thing, but she's not.

Exactly. She's not demanding the service, just making a shout out and going "if people volunteer, cool, if not, we'll put on a great show anyway."

and now i'm done for reals. I keep saying i'm done with this topic because i know I won't change minds, but I think somewhere I feel a need to explain why I personally think what she's doing is okay and how that doesn't make me a horrible person who doesn't support peoples' time, skills, and efforts.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-13T17:03:39-07:00

@raz, I think there's a difference here between the general concept of this, in which yes, many people here admit the benefits of performing for free and see the appeal in it. But with this specific issue I keep getting the impression of "if you're not an Amanda Palmer fan, you don't get it". Even Zoe Keating, who has worked with Amanda many times says "In her world it makes sense" and supports it. I'm not a fan of her work and this thread has educated me on her practices before. I'm just saying from an objective point of view it does look like someone saying "Hey, not only did I get the budget, but I got ten times the proposed budget but I'd still like you to work for free even though everyone else isn't". Like Cat said, after being more than successful in asking for money to help make something, asking for more fan support seems...off.

A lot of us here have worked for free. A lot of us have enjoyed it and didn't feel like we were being exploited in the slightest. A lot of us really haven't cared either way because it was fun. But a lot of us have also looked around at a room full of people being paid to work on a project that they have been an equal part of and wondered "wait, this isn't fair..."

Generally I think we all agree with each other and there isn't any "pretending like we're having a conversation but really we're just posturing and clapping the people who agree with us on the back", but on this specific issue it's a bit off. A bit muddled.

ETA: I'm also willing to accept that money hasn't changed her MO with getting things. Doing this when she had little money is what she does and there's a chance her mind hasn't changed with that pattern after getting a giant budget.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-13T17:12:50-07:00

Oh and more thing, for people arguing that she's always selling out shows and stuff.

Her shows are by far the cheapest shows for someone of her fame that I've gone too. I've paid near $100 to see Motley Crue, or Rolling Stones, or AC/DC, Metallica, and many others. Her shows are something like, $20-$30 bucks per person. I remember once, a few years ago, some venue (I think in Australia) charged like $40 or $50 for the tickets, hell maybe it was even just $30, and she made a tweet apologizing to everyone because she had strictly told them not to sell above $20 and how sorry she felt about the situation. She really doesn't make that much money off of ticket sales, even when she does sell out, because she sells her tickets at such low prices.

ALSO (one MORE thing :P), a few years ago a random musician went up to her in Boston and said "hey, will you come up to my dorm and listen to me play?" And she did, and she loved it, and then started a kickstarter for him and produced him and stuff. She really isn't one to heartlessly take advantage of musicians, and if anything tries to help them. Last time I saw her she had brought some unknown band with Australia with her so that they could get US recognition.

I feel like suddenly everyone who is hating on her for this forgot that she has and does help unknown musicians and is targeting her as this heartless celebrity. (and to clarify, I don't mean anyone here. In the article oldhat tweeted yesterday, people had commented things like "That bitch Mitt Romneyed them," which I really thing was unnecessary and exaggerated).

@Dorkmuffin - you know, i consider myself a fan and she sometimes gets on my nerves, too. I totally get your reasons for disliking her, and that's fine. But I still think that the criticizers are, as a whole, being more unfair than they need to be.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-13T17:20:35-07:00

ALSO ALSO

here's where she says where the money goes.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-13T17:26:31-07:00

@mister hex: I was married to a millionaire. She didn't fund everything I ever did, not by a long chalk, for reasons I prefer to keep private. It's crass to assume Neil would/should or even could (finances may not be liquid, funding the run may offer bad tax issues etc) - all this above and beyond the very distinct possibility that they just keep their finances separate, which is the impression I get from them.

It's a bad idea to assume the financial arrangement of couples you don't know. It's a far worse one to assume that because one half has wealth that there's a moral obligation for him to fund her work. Some marriages just don't run that way.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-13T17:32:46-07:00

Any time money enters the equation the issue gets muddled. Some radical...radicals... of radicalism ...once postulated that any time a person works for money they make themselves into prostitutes.

It's the basic discomfort of selling your talent.

If the situation were the established situation with a record company fronting everything and then the band paying back the company we wouldn't feel at all muddled. We would understand the paradigm, even though we've come to understand that set of circumstances is hugely fucked.

Amanda Palmer isn't exactly trying to establish a new paradigm or even experiment really, she's just trying to put on shows. Bully for her. The issue is, however, is it worthwhile to musicians to volunteer their time and talent to help her put on the show? I don't understand why the question keeps going back to whether it's ok for a headliner to simply ask. If the answer is "no I won't work your shows for free" and it turns out she won't get other pro-ish musicians in for free either well, fine.

As a stage manager I have to ask actors do things that they didn't always expect when they signed on to the show. Sometimes it's even asking them to waive the stipulations of their union contract. I ask them with the faith that they're mature enough to answer me honestly, and I ask that they consider that I will be perfectly comfortable if they turn me down. It's a bad faith situation if I'm not even allowed to ask.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-13T17:35:59-07:00

@Oldhat, I'm not saying that only Amanda Palmer fans get Amanda Palmer, rather I am arguing that fans of anything, as a general rule of thumb, are willing to pay money to the thing or person(s) of which they are a fan. It's my view that for the people volunteering, they are getting into the show for free, and getting merch, in exchange for musical services, rather than paying for the show ticket and the merch. Like I said, given that she made the post on her blog, she is reaching out to people who were likely already going to be at the show or wanted to go but couldn't bc they can't afford a ticket or it sold out. It's less "hey, take time off of your paying projects and make the time to come help me" and more "oh hey, you're gonna be here anyway and were gonna pay for a ticket? How does playing for me to get in for free sound?"

But a lot of us have also looked around at a room full of people being paid to work on a project that they have been an equal part of and wondered "wait, this isn't fair..."

For a FAN, getting in for free, and getting merch, and getting attention from the person you are a fan of IS the pay. It's why people are so willing to pay outrageous sums of money for a concert ticket that includes a photo-op with the band. And I understand that not everyone thinks this is acceptable, and that some people don't care for getting photos with celebrities, but people who do care about that do exist. Just because you don't think it's a fair trade, doesn't mean there aren't people who think it is (again, namely fans who were planning on being there anyway).

And agreed with Raz that I don't think there's anything wrong in simply asking "Hey, is anyone willing to help?" It's not like she only ever plays with musicians who will work for free. She is simply asking "is anyone willing to?" and then accepting what comes. Not once have I heard her say anything negative about the people who were unwilling to play for her for free.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-13T17:43:48-07:00

hey argos, you know what? you actually did kinda change my mind. when framed in the aspect of posting on Her blog to Her fans 'hey you guys, ill let you in the show in your town for free and you get a tab and shit!' i suddenly dont really care anymore. yeah its kinda weird but whatever. id go sing for INDECISION for a few songs for the same in trade. hell, i HAVE gone to a show to move equipment/work merch/etc and shit to get in free and have a couple beers out of the cooler, so maybe i shouldve thought about this a bit more

dont worry i still have other issues with the kickstarting and the tour and such. im not all agreeable now eh :)

edited: a part where i was totally not making the point i wanted.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-13T17:51:16-07:00

woohoo!

ie:throwing around how cheap her shows are, they arent.

I was just trying to argue that her $20 shows have always been easier for me to afford than the $100 Motley Crue shows I've been to. The price of her ticket for the San Diego show later this month is a whopping $22 to see her at the House of Blues (which i'm not actually going to because I didn't like this album as much). But i can see how comparing an arena show to her venues is apples:oranges.

edit: your edit made me chuckle :P

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-13T18:34:39-07:00

her $20 shows have always been easier for me to afford than the $100 Motley Crue shows I've been to.

Oi...stop mentioning Motley Crue....they're not going to help you at all. Seriously.

:P

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-13T19:30:45-07:00

I worked for over 2 years for my musical idol Thomas Dolby, and while part of my brain could have justified doing it for free because he is so awesome, I sent him invoices for EVERY scrap of work I did for him, and he paid them immediately. Period. I hung out on his tour bus. I drank and ate dinners with him. I got his home phone number. I got into any of his shows for free, full backstage passes, all access. Jane and I were treated like family. And I charged him for all the work I did, and he paid me for all the work I did.

There's a lot of interesting angles on this discussion, but my baseline is that work=pay, and I'm very fortunate that I was able to work with someone who was just as insistent on that point. Trust me, my inner music geek wanted to do it all for free, but my professional side refused to be quiet, and I don't see that as a contradiction. Dolby is VERY well off financially (developing polyphonic ringtone technology currently in 3 billion phones seems to be the trick), but he funded ALL of his concert tour, album production and promotion. He is a very savvy business person, and is air tight on the business end of things. Hence, I didn't over or under charge him because of this; I charged him a fair rate, and he was happy to pay, and was very happy with the services I provided.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-13T20:01:10-07:00

@ Cat - I AM CRASS and that's just how God made me. And like I said, I don't have a dog in this race, I ain't gonna go see her show OR help her out, monetarily or otherwise. And there's millionaires and then there's MILLIONAIRES and dear Neil, god bless him, is likely in the scond category, not the first. And they can do whatever they want with their communal money, their private money or any loose change they find in the couch. Methinks they don't argue over who's to buy groceries this week but whatever - maybe he spends all that Dr. Who money on Dr. Who collectibles, who knows? Sandman sells at a fairly brisk pace and he CAN'T POSSIBLY have spent all the Stardust money (not to mention the Coraline money) unless he clandestinely built himself a space station (which I wouldn't put past him). I can't speak to his finances but it IS conceivable that she could roll over in bed and at least ASK him. Rather than giving the fans "a chance to support me."

And YES, I'm sure she's nice and all but a smile and a kind word don't pay the rent, yeah? As long as you know that, with your eyes open going in, then Vaya Con Dios. Play your fuckin' heart out. Knowing that IT MIGHT'VE BEEN POSSIBLE for you to play your fuckin' heart out AND! get paid but that never happened? Kinda stings and I see why.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-13T20:08:35-07:00

And there is nothing wrong with that. I just don't see why there has to be only one right way to do it. I'm just trying to argue that for some people, one night's worth of artistic work is a fair trade for one night's entry into a show + merch (that they were arguably already planning on going to). It's a different matter to ask someone to go out of their way to do free work for you, and to ask someone who was planning on being at that show anyway to do work in exchange for entry + merch. (And I'll argue that we can extrapolate that she was asking for volunteers from the pool of people who were already planning on being there given that she did so via a blog post, of which the audience is her fans.)

I'll give another example (no Motley Crue). There's a mini Burning Man camping event coming up in San Diego called decompression. Tickets are $120. If you commit volunteer 8 hours of your time & effort either before, during, or after the event, you get a reduced priced, $30 ticket. Clearly, this is only a worth while trade to people who were planning on going. I did it in 2010 because I was broke but wanted to go, and this year I am paying a full price tickets because I don't want to worry about volunteer shifts. I could bitch about how it's unfair to ask me to pay $30 to volunteer for someone, or I could go "oh hey, I'm paying for my ticket in money and time & effort instead of in just money." I think the situation is similar with the Amanda Palmer concerts. As a fan who was planning on being there anyway, I now have the option to get into the show by paying for the ticket + service charge, get merch by paying for it, and get beer by paying for it. OR I can get all that for my services instead.

Is it just the case that this is never acceptable, and I don't realize this because I don't make my living through art? Has artistic skill become so sacred that its worth can only be shown in monetary value? And it's not okay to exchange artistic value for show entrance + merch even if the musician doing the work personally thinks it's a fair trade?

edited to add: sorry, my arguments are getting lost within my arguments. I want to stress that I do believe that in cases such as the one Paul illustrated, where the person who is looking for a service is able to pay, that is the correct thing to do. However, taking that example, I don't think it would have been horrible of Thomas Dolby to ask for artistic services in exchange for concert tickets if he we unable to give monetary compensation (though certainly not two year's worth). I don't think it would have been okay of Amanda Palmer, or anyone else, to only ever offer concert entrance & merch in exchange for service as a way to cut costs. I do think it's okay to ask for help and offer that as an alternative compensation when monetary compensation is unavailable (whether it was irresponsible finance management or whatever). Again, this only works for fans, where concert entrance and merch would be compensation. Obviously if the person providing the service is not at all interested in the musician looking for the service, then that compensation is not adequate. Asking people to go out of their way vs. asking people who were already planning on being there and whatnot.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-13T21:03:22-07:00

I really feel like you can only justify this if you don't consider what the musicians/fans are doing work, but rather pleasure. Which is fine to a degree, but then why would you ever pay anyone who goes up on a stage and has a good time?

Also, does anyone else find it strange how poorly written that whole kickstarter bloggy thing was for someone married to Neil Gaiman?

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-13T21:11:32-07:00

"Also, does anyone else find it strange how poorly written that whole kickstarter bloggy thing was for someone married to Neil Gaiman?"

Depends, how is Neil's singing? ;)

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-13T21:23:56-07:00

heh, there was actually a joke for a while that he couldn't keep a beat to save his life. Though she did finally get him to record a song, and he sounds quite good in it. Not sure how much editing was done to his voice, though (if any).

I really feel like you can only justify this if you don't consider what the musicians/fans are doing work, but rather pleasure. Which is fine to a degree, but then why would ever pay anyone who goes up on a stage and has a good time?

Because I don't think the two need be mutually exclusive. Again, personal views, and from someone who doesn't make their living off of artistic work, so I realize that might change the qualifications of my arguments for some people.

I should really just shut up now, sorry everyone. For what it's worth, this is one of the most engaging discussions I've had in a while (hence my excessive run-ons and repetitions) and I want to repeat that I do respect everyone's view even if we disagree. But now I am tired and must let this go and get some rest and sleep.

edited to add: Just saw this on the twitters. Her response to the whole ordeal. Fun fact from the post, the Dresden Dolls apparently lost money to tour with Nine Inch Nails.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-13T21:59:01-07:00

I'm not sure how I feel about this. My beliefs about Palmer's music aren't positive, but she could be John fucking Lennon for all it matters to the question.

First: This is pretty clearly aimed (unless there's other overtures we're not aware of) at fans, who may already be interested in the concert.
Second: If merch, alcohol money and chilling backstage are going to be the compensation for "a couple tunes", well, how much merch and how many drinks are being offered here for how many songs? If it's 'a t-shirt and a single beer,' then that's a materially different compensation than 'a hoodie, a copy of all of the records that you don't already have and four drinks.' And if it's a t-shirt and a beer for one song, then that's a different kind of agreement than a t-shirt and a beer for five songs.
Third: There's an easy way to get these folks paid, if paying them is a priority, get them a cut of doors or a cut of the guarantee.
Fourth: Professional-ish is a sticking point. Maybe it's just a descriptor, maybe Palmer just wants to weed out the people that can't play, but whatever. She's asking for approaching professional quality here, from her fan base.
Fifth: Like many other people, including Argos and Joe said, money isn't the only thing that can be exchanged.
Sixth: Neil Gaiman isn't on this tour. He's immaterial to the conversation, except to cast aspersions on Amanda Palmer's character for not running to her rich husband when she needs money.
Seventh: We're operating here under the impression Amanda Palmer's doing this in good faith. If she's not, then that makes this conversation much easier.
Eighth: Amanda Palmer is not your friend. She might be super neat and says things you agree with and looks awesome on the internet, but this isn't a favor for a person you've had over to your house, yelled at, forgiven, worked next to, etc etc. She might remember you and think you're cool, but she's not your friend.

And yeah. I still don't have a coherent answer for this question.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-13T22:04:43-07:00

What I keep coming back to as I think about this is that I feel like, in this case, the fandom is being exploited. Yeah, I would like to hang out with people I admire, but I would hope that the people I admire would be willing to pay me to make art for them. At least when they can afford it. And I am not convinced Amanda Palmer can't afford it. If nothing else, she has money that will be spent on beer and merchandise that could just be a paycheck for people who are helping her make money. I wonder if the sense of community, as wonderful as it is in a lot of ways, could make people susceptible to being used.

I'm not a huge Amanda Palmer fan, but I am a fan. I follow her on twitter and I've basically had the new album on repeat the last couple of days when I've been home. I gave what I could to the kickstarter, but all I really could give was a dollar. I sort of feel like this move is out of character, given how she's paid other artists she's worked with in the past. I do understand where you guys that are okay with it are coming from, but I disagree. Just because something is fun doesn't mean you should do it free.

ETA: Reading over her blog response, yes it is a fun and cool way to go about things. But I still don't understand why the musicians that come in can't get a few dollars as well as the fun times. I really think the money management must've gone terribly wrong somewhere along the line. I've read her blog about where the money goes, but still. This is something that should've been in the budget to begin with.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-14T04:24:25-07:00

@Fishelle -

I'm not sure invoking fandom is helpful here. Fandoms also tend to feel like they are co-creators in an artist's work, feeling free to redistribute and create remixes and derivative works with it.

If one is a devoted fan, one who has enjoyed Amanda Palmer's free music, or remixed them, or attended free shows but one who has not strongly supported the band by buying the merch or making donations directly - I think being given the chance to pay it back with a little sweat equity is not at all unreasonable.

Certainly this isn't entirely how it was pitched, but it is one way to look at it and I'm sure at least a few of the musicians may approach it like that, as a way to make a donation to support the creation of the work.

Would anyone feel differently if she had called them 'unpaid internships'...?

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-14T04:51:39-07:00

@Mister Hex - Neil Gaiman's not super-rich because of his writing, but because he inherited a vitamin company. That said, we'd be having a whole different argument if he was funding his wife's tours and would be questioning her artistic integrity and if they weren't stupid, they'd not want to lose money on them, and therefore the ticket prices would go up if they put more money in in the first place.

This seems like one of those scenarios where someone's painted themselves into a corner.

The decent thing may be to offer to promote the people who play in some kind of extra way, as it seems like *some* kind of extra gesture, at least, is needed now.

Fuck you, pay me, needn't mean pay with teh monies, but it should be something tangible.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-14T05:10:46-07:00

@Paul Sizer

Dolby is VERY well off financially (developing polyphonic ringtone technology

Well I never knew that!

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-14T06:30:00-07:00

@Oddcult Not just any vitamin company, a gorram Scientology Vitamin Company

Neil Gaiman paraphrased: "I don't have any ties to the church"

Vitamin company sells exclusively to the "church" and donates hundreds of thousands of dollars to them most years. The vitamins are also questionable as to doing anything other than removing thetans or somesuch.

Lost a lot of respect for the man after I found that stuff out. I like his stories, and he seems genuinely nice - but he doesn't seem entirely honest about his ties.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-14T07:12:48-07:00

Alan Moore is largely responsible for the V masks and has voiced considerable support for Anonymous.

Alan Moore and Neil Gaiman are good mates. They hugged at his wedding. I know, because I was there as well and saw.

Amanda Palmer is also from a scientology background. They've, however, both got family still in, so have to be very careful about what they say in relation to it. You might feel little sympathy for them because; rich, famous, etc, but they're in a tight spot in regards to that stuff and the benefit of the doubt falls on their side.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-14T08:07:57-07:00

To me this seemed symptomatic of the relationship Amanda Palmer shares with her fan base.

Being outside the fan base it may look exploitive but apparently Amanda has the type of fans who are happy to perform with her and to allow her to profit from their training/talent in exchange for the life experience / merch / booze.

She also has fans who are happy to pay money to listen to Amanda perform with pro-am / potentially under-rehearsed musicians (even a slightly dodgy string or brass ensemble can be incredibly obtrusive so taking the risk of listening to this takes a lot of love or patience.)

I don’t think this is so unique that it hasn’t been done before or couldn’t be repeated again. Her fans like her, trust her and if she fucks that up she’ll feel the consequences on the next tour or next fund raising effort.

However, when I learned that she paid (and budgeted?) for strings and horns in high profile locations (New York for example) that made me feel like the whole thing is not in fact the circle of love she’d like to present it as.

The fans going to see her in a high profile location get to see a tight, well crafted musical performance while fans in less high profile locations get an “experience” (good or bad).

I’m sure a lot of her fans are in it for the “experience” but it seems cynical to me that she will serve AFP inc. when she needs to – that she judges her music should be preformed at a professional level for one night of the tour and at a less than professional level for another.

I don’t think she’s being deliberately exploitative but I do believe she’s naïve and feels a maybe undeserved sense of entitlement due to her past efforts and her "redesigning of the music industry".

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-14T08:47:48-07:00

@Oddcult
I'm a pretty sympathetic person, but I can't abide someone that sells out morality for cash.

Such as quietly taking money from a despicable organization that exploits the weak-minded; while pretending it doesn't happen and disavowing involvement.

That's the equivalent of being a gay CEO of Chick-Fil-A and not speaking up because the money is too good.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-14T09:05:31-07:00

Just to be clear whatever else you think he has never denied links with Scientology. Also with half of his family still involved (he was born into a Scientology family rather than joining later in life) that is an incredibly difficult line for someone to walk.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-14T09:10:01-07:00

wow, the things you learn. I had no idea Gaiman had inherited a scientology vitamin company.

What I keep coming back to as I think about this is that I feel like, in this case, the fandom is being exploited.

And to a certain extent that's not untrue. I will admit that, in a sense, this is not unlike that damned Penny Arcade kickstarter, where the rewards were things like "we'll follow you on twitter for a year" or "you can intern for us for a day." The PA kickstarter is one that I abhorred and still annoys me and I think was extremely exploitative of their fans, but, I do also realize that for the people who donated at those levels, there was in fact value in those incentives. I may not agree, but whatever if they feel it was worth it, so be it.

ebullientsoul summed up the whole thing quite nicely.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-14T09:28:01-07:00

I think from my perspective is that artists have a responsibility to say no. If venues are charging to play if local artists don't play there then the venue won't make anything. If publishing houses are charging to publish then if people don't submit to them and pay the fees then they will fold. If people don't volunteer to pay for nothing then Palmer won't have her extra musicians. End of.
My day job is an archaeologist, a profession which has a large volunteer sector, and also a large sector who pay to excavate. Personally I have never, even on my first sites, paid to work because that's what it is.
When I started writing I made the decision that I would have work published for free if there was a clear payoff, or get paid. I would never pay to have work published. That was, and still is, my baseline.
It's alright talking about exploiting artists, but at the end of the day she isn't forcing people to get on stage, people are making those decisions themselves. If they feel exploited they have to take responsibility for accepting that work.
Now if it was me I could see a clear payoff here. You get exposure, you get a huge attentive audience you can tap into. You get some potential contacts. You get to play in front of a bigger audience.
Also I don't quite get why Gaiman should be expected to bankroll her tour, business and relationships just don't work like that.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-14T09:38:19-07:00

@Steve - I agree with everything you just said.

I imagine some folks would try their damndest to win a contest to play with one of their favorite musicians, even contests that involved "WHO CAN PUT THEIR GENITALS IN A VICE GRIP FOR THE LONGEST?"

That said Ms. Palmer could have positioned it a bit better - instead of "I don't have the money, HALP" (negative) how about "WHO WANTS A CHANCE TO PLAY WITH ME? FAME, BEER, FANS! SUBMIT YOUR ENTRY!" (positive)

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-14T09:39:19-07:00

I want to echo the comments a few have made about working for free to support others, ect. I've done shows where I haven't gotten paid because the show was for charity and that's to be expected. The thing is though, in those cases EVERYONE worked for nothing/beer and hand-jobs because we knew it was for a good cause and we knew where the money was going.

Here it seems like Amanda and x-amount of people doing the shows ARE getting paid and shafting the others under the guise of 'good-times' and fan experiences. That's bullshit.

When I've run shows I have made it very clear to everyone involved that I don't get paid until they do. They get paid first and the only times one gets less than agreed upon is because the door was lighter than expected, which means after breaking even on the cost of running the show I will not be able to pay myself.

If you can afford to pay yourself/someone else you can afford to pay everyone something.

Also as far as 'fan interaction' goes justifying this:
Eighth: Amanda Palmer is not your friend. She might be super neat and says things you agree with and looks awesome on the internet, but this isn't a favor for a person you've had over to your house, yelled at, forgiven, worked next to, etc etc. She might remember you and think you're cool, but she's not your friend.
THIS One Million Times.
You are a Mark and very little more to her. Until she offers to open shows for you for free/ lets you crash on her couch when you are in town she is not your friend.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-14T09:46:30-07:00

damn, the shows ive run/booked/promoted, no one has EVER offered a handjob

now im jealous

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-14T09:51:44-07:00

wrestling is a weird business my friend

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-14T09:53:14-07:00

Until she offers to open shows for you for free...

She didn't open for them, but in that tumblr post I linked to, she mentioned that just a few days ago, one of the opening bands at a bard college she played at asked her if she would sing with them for a song. And she did, she went out of her way to drive herself to their rehearsal space to learn the song, and then the night of the gig played with them before going on stage with her own band, all for no pay. Not to mention that a random person in Boston once asked her to come to his room and listen to him play when he saw her walking by, and she did, and loved it so much she ran a kickstarter on his behalf. She might not personally be my friend, as her fan, but she does do stuff like that all the time. As she said in her post, all it takes is asking, and maybe you'll get a yes. Granted she hasn't done that to every fan, but she hasn't only taken from them, either.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-14T10:50:46-07:00

@agentarsenic As this programme from the uk in the nineties shows you can get people to do anything for their few seconds in the sun http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TKyNyJYGcFQ

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-14T11:11:08-07:00

THIS THIS THIS THIS from @TF:

However, when I learned that she paid (and budgeted?) for strings and horns in high profile locations (New York for example) that made me feel like the whole thing is not in fact the circle of love she’d like to present it as.

The fans going to see her in a high profile location get to see a tight, well crafted musical performance while fans in less high profile locations get an “experience” (good or bad).

Also the comments about her not being your friend. Because true.

Also re: the Gaiman thing, knowing the guy who wrote that? There's no way he meant "Gaiman needs to help bankroll her tour." He doesn't actually say that, if you read it again. Plus, the guy added in the comments: "Sorry, was totally kidding about that — obviously I don’t expect Gaiman to finance Palmer’s music." Sometimes writers say things for comedic/hyperbolic effect. And sometimes they have the balls to say, "guys, you're right, and I don't agree that he should finance her music. But uh, take a joke?"

HOWEVER in my opinion Gaiman is relevant to the discussion in the following way:

Gaiman has fucktons of money. He probably knows how to manage it. Ms. Palmer, who has DEFINITELY proven herself after this fiasco to be somewhat shoddy at handling cash moneys, could have asked for his help in managing funds. Or he could have offered advice. Or WHATEVER. Couples talk about things when they're couples.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-14T11:36:38-07:00

@ dorkmuffin - yeah I read about that two tier treatment for the concerts and I thought that was a little shitty. sorry people of Cleveland...you should've seen the New York show.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-14T11:46:50-07:00

Re the New York thing, some people raised the point over in the comments in the Stereogum post about Palmer's response saying that New York was her record release show. However, the post author found it important to note (and I agree) that it wasn't JUST New York. It was a few cities.

Also, here is Palmer's original solicitation:

“we’re looking for professional-ish horns and strings for EVERY CITY to hop up on stage with us for a couple of tunes … you need to know how to ACTUALLY, REALLY PLAY YOUR INSTRUMENT! lessons in fifth grade do not count, so please include in your email some proof of that (a link to you playing on a real stage would be great, or a resume will do. just don’t LIE…you’ll be embarrassed if you show up for rehearsal and everyone’s looking at you wondering why you can’t actually play the trombone.)”

That's the part that kills me. This is not just volunteering. This isn't "OH MAN I GET TO PLAY WITH MY FAVORITE BAND!" This is, frankly, total bullshit. Palmer done fucked up.

(also that Stereogum post contains the 2800 word response (!!!!!!!!) she wrote to a classical musician who had some beef with the way she went about this. I strongly encourage reading the excerpts, but no one can be expected to read that whole fucking thing)

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-14T11:48:29-07:00

@dorkmuffin my comment about Gaiman wasn't aimed at anyone in particular, rather it has been mentioned a couple of times in this thread so was more an observation on that than a comment on the piece linked. He maybe as useless at managing his money, but probably employs better financial advisors. Now he could have put her onto them. Maybe bought her a couple of hours financial planning as a Valentine's Day gift.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-14T11:53:47-07:00

“we’re looking for professional-ish horns and strings for EVERY CITY to hop up on stage with us for a couple of tunes … you need to know how to ACTUALLY, REALLY PLAY YOUR INSTRUMENT! lessons in fifth grade do not count, so please include in your email some proof of that (a link to you playing on a real stage would be great, or a resume will do. just don’t LIE…you’ll be embarrassed if you show up for rehearsal and everyone’s looking at you wondering why you can’t actually play the trombone.)”

ugh...how about you get what you pay for? as a working artist I still get hit up for free work...I doubt if I was an electrician or a plumber that would happen as frequently.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-14T12:00:49-07:00

@William you would get hit up for free work still, but would tell them to fuck off. Again artists really need to grow some and tell people asking them to work for conditions they don't think are fair. Set your own standards and stick to them. I submit work to places that don't pay, but they're are very specific ones I want to support. However I WOULD NEVER pay to be published.
People are obviously going and playing for her for free and they need to take some responsibility for perpetuating this surely? They're adults. They can wipe their own backsides. They can make their own career decisions. Palmer hasn't brainwashed them, so they have to be held partly culpable for perpetuating this. The problem is that in creative industries there will always be someone willing to do the work for free just to get that acknowledgement, so my question is how do we make that C change to a point where this doesn't happen?

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-14T12:17:34-07:00

@Toase, I didn't mean that as an attack on you. I just meant that as a general response to what has been said in this thread. I figured I'd clarify.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-14T12:20:41-07:00

Gaiman has fucktons of money. He probably knows how to manage it. Ms. Palmer, who has DEFINITELY proven herself after this fiasco to be somewhat shoddy at handling cash moneys, could have asked for his help in managing funds. Or he could have offered advice. Or WHATEVER. Couples talk about things when they're couples.

This is absolutely true.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-14T12:41:05-07:00

One thing I wanted to throw in re: not doing free work for exposure, and the comparison to trade workers such as plumbing and stuff. My mother is an apartment manager and my father does maintenance for the same company. The contractors the company employs constantly offer to do free work for them - repainting the walls, professional carpet cleaning, free cable from ATT, etc. etc. The way my mother explained it to me years back, the contractors do this because by offering free services to the employers, the employers then refer them to the residents. Granted the situation is a bit different from the AFP thing because she's not personally referring every volunteer musician, but I did want to point out that doing free work for recognition is not unique to the art world. My primary experience with it has actually been with trade skill workers.

I realize this doesn't apply in exactly the same way as it does with artists as the conditions are different, but I thought it might be worth throwing it. My family has personally received free services from trade skill contractors multiple times for many, many years, but we've also paid full bills when we've needed to. It's a mix of both.

edited to add: This discussion reminds me of when the whole deferred action thing passed recently. There was a debate going on between immigrants and lawyers because some people were saying not to hire any lawyers who won't work for free (to avoid scams, which does happen with immigration cases), and lawyers saying they won't work for free and not to lump them in with the scammers (the "notarios") just because they require a fee to their work. In that argument I was actually arguing on behalf of lawyers who don't work pro-bono, because again, it's their right to do that (and as some would argue, your responsibility when that's how you make a living) and I don't think there's any one right way to contract yourself; I personally paid my own immigration lawyer his full fee when I needed a lawyer. But it illustrates that the whole "well fine I'll just go find someone else to do it for free" does happen with other professions, too. Maybe more often than not with lawyers because it's easy to attack them and call them heartless for not working pro-bono for someone who is both a good person and poor, I really don't know, but it happens.

edited again to add: Not saying the fact that it happens with other professions too makes it any more okay or anything, it just seemed like people were arguing that this doesn't ever happen with other professions. It does.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-14T13:28:14-07:00

Two words. Harlan Ellison.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-14T13:47:10-07:00

this is what happens when artists don't charge for their work as well:

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-14T16:11:42-07:00

And looked at where they ended up because of that genius plan. (The second post down is the guy in the video's resignation letter, further down is the whole sorry tale of woe)

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-14T16:13:13-07:00

@dorkmuffin no worries. I didn't think you did. TBH this is one of the only forums I really contribute to because even when people disagree there seems to be space to express opposing views without veering to reductive argumenting. I just wanted clarify where I was coming from. I'm going to go back to drinking Goergia Moonshine whiskey and watching British folk documentaries.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-14T16:53:35-07:00

@ Jamie Heron - yup, but that guy got a golden parachute. the artists? not so much.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-14T17:11:49-07:00

@ William Joseph Dunn: Yeah, one (pf the many) of the horrifying things about it all was the story of the family who'd moved from New Hampshire, down to Florida on the promise of a job, that is now unavailable.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-14T19:01:21-07:00

Has anyone mentioned interning yet? (oic, Finagle did; good on you.)

This is one of the biggest problems with our education system right now: you graduate with tons of student debt and then the only way to get your galdang foot in the galdang door is with months more labour and debt. And then maybe they might offer you a job at the end, unless no one's retired lately, in which case they replace you with a new fresh-faced intern. Doing work for free is totally balls, guys, but there's this culture that demands it. If you withhold your labour under "principles," some other ambitious youngster is gonna get in there and make your opportunities all dry up.

That's the only thing that irks me about this. Amanda Palmer wants interns. All the skill you don't have to pay for, because they don't have experience or connections.
And the only thing you're ever vaguely promised with an internship is maybe some networking and maybe some promotion and maybe some stuff to put in your portfolio. And that really fucking blows. It's the way it is, of course, but it's really friggin' unfortunate. It's symptomatic of a greater issue in our workforce: too much fucking specialized skill, too many high-level accreditations, way too much supply for the demand, and now we're all at each other's throats for these Marvelous Opportunities. Guuuuuuuh.
(Which is why we're slowly incorporating "Practicums" and internships into our education system, so maybe you can have a job offer waiting for you when you graduate, and beat the rat race? Except most likely not, for the scenario detailed above. Student aren't warned to make themselves absolutely indispensable when they have the chance.)

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-14T19:24:07-07:00

Why can't these artistic collaborations be like co-operative business ventures? Depending on how much you perform, you get a specified share in the profits, whatever they may be. Even if that share is $2 for each lowly small-town trombonist, at least it's a token, and there's the implicit motivation to help the tour earn more -- bring out all your friends, etc.
What they should do is write some fucking contracts for this shit.

And my next question: How the fuck did she plan on funding ANY of the shit she has been planning since the beginning, with her original goal of $100k? (?!!!?!?!) I mean, turntables packages at $500 a pop and it would cost her 50% ($150 turntable + $100 vinyl/cd/art book) of that just to make them? The mismanagement of the money should've been apparent months ago.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-14T21:54:47-07:00

INTERNING. BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO that is all.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-15T03:59:55-07:00

Okay, I've just read this properly now. It's not just 'come and jam', it's 'I want pros, of this and that type, and them to turn up for rehearsals and shit too'.

Fuck you, pay them.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-15T18:56:16-07:00

@oddcult
if you wanted to see one of your bestest, favouritest artists play, would you be happy paying for a full-price ticket if you knew the artist had sent out a call for anyone who was interested to "come and jam" with them?
I think I'd be a bit dubious about the absence of any kind of critical bar. It seems totally reasonable to me that she'd specify people who can actually play.

@all
Honestly, I'm kinda stunned by the amount of rage in this thread about an artist who is trying to do things her own way..?
Personally, I'm all about the "make it work however you can" thing rather than the "make it work only according to these specific rules" thing.
Frankly, the talk about Neil Gaiman's potential role here is (maybe only for me) ugly, distasteful and totally unnecessary.
This has been the most active discussion on this board for months, maybe. And it is all about trashing an artist for some decisions she has made. Huh.

Disclosure: Never listened to any of her stuff, have no idea if it's decent or what. No investment at all.

I get that she is asking professional musicians to work for (basically) free. That's not a problem for me, really, if the musicians are up for it.

Totally absent any musical talent myself, I still know and have lived with several musicians who make an actual living from their work. Most of those people would, I strongly suspect, be thrilled to play a gig with an artist they love. It is not about the money for them, it's about the music and the prestige and all that other complicated musiciany stuff.

The only argument against this that I could even start to respect is the "she is changing the culture towards a point where creatives get zip". Even then, that seems so tenuous. I mean, how much influence are we imagining that A(F)P really has? Were things really oh-so-great for indie music creators before she came along?
Yes, artists being paid for their work is a good and important thing. Does this situation really represent a threat to that?

Seriously, and if someone can properly refute it I would be happy to admit that I'm talking out of my ass, this seems like a crazy thing to get excited about. I just don't see the harm in Ms Palmer getting some locals up to play with her each place she goes. In fact, I see more positives in that than negatives.

I guess my question is: why are we even having this horribly negative conversation about it?
Amanda Palmer seems to attract lovers and haters in nearly equal measure. Are we, WHITECHAPEL, now a place for vituperatively hating on artists whose methods we disagree with? Because I have some shit to say in that case, maybe I should start a new thread or two.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-15T20:04:32-07:00

I'm not entirely sure why there is such a backlash against people daring to criticize her methods. Especially when those of us doing so are explaining over and over why we feel that what she's doing is unethical. But disagreeing with what she's doing is not the same as hating her (at least, I haven't written entries disavowing all her future records and burning her old ones in effigy).

And I don't know how many times I can say "if you're getting paid for something, so should everyone as an industry standard". But honestly, I'm a fan of her music, I'm a fan of the community she's built, and a fan of the way she's been changing the way things get done, but I still think this is a misstep and I don't see any reason why I shouldn't critique it. Because what she's doing is important and it is exploring and pushing boundaries for the future of how things are made. And I think that in analyzing what she's doing, where people are unhappy and where people are happy, a better method can come from it.

Isn't it kind of a better thing to be able to hear both sides? Which is what we're getting. The Gaiman part is gross (he should just bankroll her projects instead of her trying to build something on her own? speculating into his Scientology connections? really?) and I hope we've all gotten over that.

I think this is important as a new manner of making bigger things out of limited means - it's what Razrangel was getting at with her theatre productions and what I'm sure a lot of people will deal with in touring performance arts.

Because where do we draw the line between volunteer work and salary guidelines? Is it OK to just open up crowdsourcing in all matters, no matter who you are, big or small? How do you decide who is "expendable" and who needs to be paid? Not to mention the difference between getting strangers to volunteer vs letting your friends volunteer? Does that then mean that the only people who can successfully do bigger productions are the ones who can monetize it or are the ones who happen to have the right group of talented friends?

I feel like ignoring this and leaving it as "it's their business, let them do what they want and let me do it the way I want" is just kind of lazy. I'm not sure that she's going to level the entire music industry into musical creative contests (then again, I didn't expect that to happen for the illustration industry either). But I think it's worth analyzing. I think the "let people volunteer if they want, they're not being taken advantage of if they like it" argument isn't good enough. Because we have wage protections for other industries and I don't see why people are OK denying that for creatives in the name of "doing it for the experience". In both senses of "experience".

It reminds of listening to people say how so much more could get done if only we got rid of that pesky minimum wage. Or if unions didn't have all those regulations about how to treat workers. Man, then we'd have such nice things.

I do agree that my doom prophesies of "this will ruin the entire industry" is a hyperbolic, but at the same time, give some people an inch and they'll take a mile. I like stating my criticisms now so people can build better business models in the future rather than just "meh"-ing along complacently.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-15T20:14:13-07:00

As a lot of us have said, our problem is the fact that she seemingly is blowing smoke up these people's asses by saying 'it's not about money, it's all about the music and love maaaaannnn' while still collecting a pay check for herself and her 'real' band.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-15T20:51:33-07:00

@glukkake - *bows*

Because where do we draw the line between volunteer work and salary guidelines? Is it OK to just open up crowdsourcing in all matters, no matter who you are, big or small? How do you decide who is "expendable" and who needs to be paid? Not to mention the difference between getting strangers to volunteer vs letting your friends volunteer? Does that then mean that the only people who can successfully do bigger productions are the ones who can monetize it or are the ones who happen to have the right group of talented friends?

These are truly important and relevant questions, and if there's a purpose to this thread, you have hit it square.
Everything is worth analyzing, everything is worth critiquing. I don't mean to say that this thread hasn't been lively and provocative as well as shitty.
It may have seemed like I was trying to pre-invalidate any critique of Amanda Palmer on principle, if so, I apologize. That wasn't my intention. There are definitely interesting issues to discuss here. AFP (can I haz lol?) is, in my extremely superficial interwebs-enabled experience, a pretty interesting and polarizing cat. If she has made a mis-step with her community of fans here (and I'm still not convinced she necessarily has) then she will have to pay the price for that anyway.

I reckon I agree with most of what else you say, but I generally think you have to let artists make their own decisions and I naively think art is not mainly about getting paid, it's about saying something you have to say. Hammering artists for not adhering to some arbitrary monetary compensation system with their work is fucking bullshit, if you'll pardon my language.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-15T21:17:49-07:00

I find it more insulting to be told that I should find some kind of fluffy soul happiness in getting to be creative and that my getting paid is not important. Because, y'know, this about "art". When really, I can't do art being paid in hugs and beer, no matter how much an alcoholic I am.

Volunteering for non-profits, volunteering for your friends, bartering your hand made object for someone else's work with their hands, all fair game.

But I stand by my original idea: Telling you that it's OK that I get a paycheck, but explaining that you should just settle for "being a part of the magic" is bullshit.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-15T21:19:43-07:00

The Scientology thing has been something I've never really been able to get over. It's a duplicitous and murderous cult and Neil's on record as having donated as recently as 2009 ($35K IIRC) and co-owns the family bullshit Scientology vitamin business. The in-deep anti-Scientologists claim Amanda Palmer has family in Sea Org. and was the appointed replacement wife for Neil. I wouldn't be at all surprised if these people could find a Scientology thread in the Kickstarter funding.

It's a pretty sad thing all around, from Palmer's request for free work in the smaller dates to L-Ron's tentacles in one of my early fave comics writers.

~R

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-15T21:26:42-07:00

@Richard Pace - Scientology fears/conspiracies/gossip have no place in a discussion about new models of running performance arts. Please stop derailing.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-15T21:43:15-07:00

I've been following this discussion with lots of interest. I do not personally have a dog in the fight, but this has been really well argued on both sides.

I'm jumping in now to take issue with this:

but I generally think you have to let artists make their own decisions and I naively think art is not mainly about getting paid, it's about saying something you have to say. Hammering artists for not adhering to some arbitrary monetary compensation system with their work is fucking bullshit, if you'll pardon my language.

Nobody is hammering anyone about adhering to an arbitrary monetary compensation system. They are insisting that, as professionals, artists place a monetary value on their work.

I'm sorry but it really is terrifically naive to think that, for professionals, "saying something" for someone else who is not you and is asking for you to work for them without getting paid is more important than getting paid.

If you are doing your own original artwork, you are working for yourself, on spec, and so of course you are deferring pay to accomplish saying something, but of course once you have said it you will then look for a way to get paid for having said it, if you are smart.

That is entirely different than some other artist with their own work asking for you to use your talents to support their work to say their thing for which they will collect pay but you will receive none.

Does that make sense?

Look, the thing that to me is the most disappointing about what I've seen of the topic of this discussion, as well as the infamous Penny Arcade kickstarter campaign (that Argos also mentioned earlier, I think) is that Amanda Palmer and Penny Arcade are true up from nothing bootstrap success stories that came out of our culture. They are our age, with our backgrounds, doing things we love and they made it work. Legitimately, they built professions out of passions many of us share with them. They, whether they realize it or not, whether they like it or not, professionally, they are our role models.

So it is so disappointing to see them having obtained genuine professional legitimacy and then turn around and make such amateur and unprofessional moves. You know? It's like, we thought they were the grown ups that we all helped to grow up, and we look up to them in the capacity of their success. We want them to keep getting bigger. But these moves are really small time stuff. They really seem diminishing.

So that's disappointing.

Also, and I am so sick of hearing this from people who don't do creative work for a living, but yes, money for us is good to, just like money you get for doing your job. Fuck this "saying something is more important" bullshit. You are talking about people who are doing work. Not playing. It is work. Also these people are biologically identical to you. They must eat, and exposure to the elements is detrimental to their health just like it is to you. They cannot buy food and pay rent by "saying something".

They need to get paid.

They should be proud to insist that their work has a monetary value.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-15T21:50:35-07:00

The " Please stop derailing." suggests it's something I'm in the habit of doing. Having just slogged through the thread I responded to a few of the elements that stuck out. Nor is this a discussion of new models of running performance arts - -it's an old model of taking advantage of wannabe talent.

On topic, then -- Palmer's excuses aside, it's bad optics after having raised such a large sum to cover a tour (among other things) and then to ask for essentially free work in the lower profile venues. Further, it sets the worst sort of example of how 'professional-ish' musicians can be treated. As a visual artist I know I have exhausted my patience for requests of free work towards projects that will generate income for other participants.

~R

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-15T21:57:50-07:00

They are insisting that, as professionals, artists place a monetary value on their work.

Yeah, I don't think that's ok. I'll have to leave this for now though.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-15T22:02:20-07:00

Are you fucking kidding me?

Edited to add: Seriously?

Edited to further add: are you really sure you want to go on the record in a community that includes many creative workers and in many ways involves their work that you have some kind of problem with the necessity of them placing a monetary value on the product of their labor?

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-15T22:19:40-07:00

@Richard Pace my apologies, I didn't check if you were the same person who brought this up in the past, but mostly, I just don't see a point in bringing it into the thread. So, I'm sorry if I was excessively rude.

@city creed yea, that then goes down to a serious divergence of fundamental values between you and I.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-15T22:29:19-07:00

I'm going to give a longer reply tomorrow after a good night's sleep, but...

Fucking hell, city creed. I'd appreciate more of an elaboration on your part, but right off the bat I...jesus.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-16T03:01:49-07:00

This is a very contentious issue and it seems to have brought up what seem to be blind spots in people's thinking about what kind of recompense creative people should get for their work. Some intelligent people have shown they don't quite understand the issues (I'm not just talking about on Whitechapel, but in other places this argument has spread). I'm interested in the discourse here and I'm going to bump along themes that have already been touched on elsewhere.

That it's to do with personal feelings about Amanda Palmer, Neil Gaiman being anywhere near it or monetary worth of music itself are nothing to do with the argument. They're spurious at best, smokescreens at worst.

The problem, in my eyes, is seeing someone who is set to gain financially from this tour and pay musicians who play with her regularly, to then turn around and ask professional-level local musicians to come along and play. For nothing. Or, if you want to take it further, to pay for the privilege of doing so.

The hugs, beer and merch thing is immaterial in my eyes. I don't think that's good enough compensation for someone who has to pay the price of a ticket and then go to the expense of getting to the venue and who is a professional of any kind - 'ish' or not.

Whether she's created this situation by design or otherwise, that's a different discussion again. However, the fact remains, she has and it comes across as sleazy and exploitative.

With a few sentences she created a two-tier system of haves and have-nots. She and her band are getting paid for their work. The happy fans who get to drag their instruments along are not. It feels to a lot of the creatives who are watching this situation that she's aiming to get work out of people for close to nothing, while taking a cut and giving other people fair payment. This is an unpleasant precedent. After getting money in order to make her shows better she's resorting to pulling unpaid labour.

It would be nice if the only thing about being a creative was getting the work out there, but that's not the reality we live in. Creative people have to eat, have to pay rent, pay to travel and pay for entertainment. Whether you like it or not monetary value is still a large part of value, especially to the person creating whatever they've spent time doing. The fact that Amanda Palmer asks for any kind of professionalism from the musicians she calling for, it means they've spent a lot of time honing their craft, paying for their equipment and possibly struggling to get work to sustain themselves. This sort of says, you're not important enough to pay - you're worthless. And that's an abominable thing to do someone who loves what they do. And just because someone loves what they do, doesn't make it any less of a job. Lots of professional people love their jobs, but you don't even dare consider what they do worthless. When a creative says they love what they do it's suddenly not real work. When another creative, by their actions, seems to have this attitude it's guaranteed to rightly get the creative community up in arms.

Will

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-16T05:45:26-07:00

@ oddbill

So it is so disappointing to see them having obtained genuine professional legitimacy and then turn around and make such amateur and unprofessional moves. You know? It's like, we thought they were the grown ups that we all helped to grow up, and we look up to them in the capacity of their success. We want them to keep getting bigger. But these moves are really small time stuff. They really seem diminishing.

Thank you for articulating that

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-16T06:07:50-07:00

@citycreed - "if you wanted to see one of your bestest, favouritest artists play, would you be happy paying for a full-price ticket if you knew the artist had sent out a call for anyone who was interested to "come and jam" with them?"

Depends on the venue, number of people there, time spent doing this compared to other stuff on the night, whether it was advertised as that or not so I could make an informed choice etc etc. Short answer; maybe, but probably.

If the question were 'was one of my bestest, favouritest artists being a dick about paying musicians would I be etc?' then no, I wouldn't be happy paying and they'd probably stop being one of my bestest, favouritest artists.

@glukakke - the scientology stuff is neither conspiracy nor outright fear, whether it's gossip or not is debatable. Gaiman and Palmer are both in a tricky position in regards to the Church of Scientology and it's one where they can't really comment much, for fear of losing contact with family members. It's a massive part of their backgrounds, sure, and may affect how people relate to their work.

However, as I've already said, and this is @Richard Pace too, if Alan Moore, one of the most principled people around, to the level of quite literally turning down millions when refusing to simply give his blessing to the Before Watchman stuff, who is fundamentally linked to the anti-Scientology movement because of the V-masks and who has spoken out in support of Anonymous, can be extremely good mates with Neil Gaiman, he gets the benefit of the doubt.

Why it's relevant is because, if people are worried about *that* aspect in relation to this, despite coming down on the 'fuck you, pay me' side, it's still possible and reasonable to reject that aspect of it.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-16T09:04:43-07:00

I'm not a musician but art's where my soul lives. And music is just another type of art. It takes work to get good at it, and a lot of times it doesn't come cheap. The price of a good instrument can make me cringe.

It makes me a bit wary when people don't think that artists (of any type) should not be paid because their work is creative and comes from the soul/heat/kidneys/spleen. You don't get good at anything by magic. And when you pay someone for their art, to me you're acknowledging the work they put into learning and mastering those skills. In my area, I've seen a lot of people use the 'do it free for exposure/fun" thing be used as a mask for "LOL its artz, why should we pay for it?" kinda crud; and instead of getting paying work, it's just lead to "Oh so and so does artsy stuff For Free! WOoo!"

I don't mean everyone should get bucketfulls of money, but aknowlege their work and effort, yaknow? Sometimes getting paid in swag is fun. Othertimes it seems a bit... meh.

The whole thing about everyone else getting paid but the 'fan' musicians does kinda rankle me a bit. You're asking to take the artists's time, and for however many practices as well. How much swag is that worth? Or is meeting AFP and the rest of the gang enough of a compensation? You'd have awesome memories, no doubt, but I have no idea how much that would translate to as far as finding future gigs goes.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-16T10:05:29-07:00

The sad thing is, if Palmer just offered to pay the "fan musicians" even half scale, she wouldn't have seen this type of backlash. The smart thing for her to do at this point is to issue a mea culpa and agree to pay the musicians something, even if it's only $30, at the end of the night. It would at least pay for transportation. If this was for charity, I don't think anyone would have had a problem with Palmer's original offer.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-16T10:38:27-07:00

While this issue with AFP has brought it to the fore this isn't new by any means. I have a lot of friends who re-enact. They own high quality kit, and often many years of knowledge about the period as well as experience fighting. They do lots of work with film companies and it is not uncommon for work to be offered on the basis of 'Well, you'll get on telly' or 'but you'll be on the film.'
In my profession of archaeology there is a whole third sector of volunteers. There are many projects utilise these either getting people to work for nothing, or charging them under the auspices of training (Don't get me wrong some projects do provide very good training and some fantastic volunteer projects.)

This seems to be something that infects ''vocations' ie jobs that you do for the pleasure of it, as if that was a concrete resource you can feed the family with.

This ignores the value that the creative industry can bring to an economy. In the part of the UK I live in, North Yorkshire, creative industry contributes more to the economy than farming. Work should be valued. Work should be paid for. If work is not valued or paid for then don't engage with those entities. The problem with archaeology/writing/music is there are so many people clawing out their own lungs to do these roles there will always be people taking up these 'opportunities' where everyone else is getting paid but them.

This has always been the way in these sectors and I don't think it will change with that constant stream of people.

What concerns me more is that this mindset is creeping into the wider world in the form of internships and workfare in the UK for example.

I have certain places I have no problem submitting work to knowing I'm not getting paid. These are projects I've been submitting to since I started and have a great deal of affection for and wanting to carry on supporting. Everything else I get paid for.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-16T14:08:58-07:00

I sometimes choose to do work for free- or at a greatly reduced rate (for various reasons)- but drawing is my job, not my hobby- and I need paying. I enjoy my job, but if I wasn't getting paid, I'd be doing something else.

Internships are just bullshit.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-16T14:37:02-07:00

As gross as I think it is, I really honestly believe that Amanda Palmer does not think she is in the wrong. She is sure that she is doing her musicians a favor and loving everyone. And enough of her fans feel the same that she won't have trouble getting a band together at every show. I think she is exploiting people, but I do not think it is on purpose.

I feel like it would be more in keeping with what this whole community is all about if she paid them. Because if she wants to be part of her fans' life and bring joy to them and help them the way they've helped her, she ought to do everything in her power to help them as much as she can.

I think it's useful to see what's being talked about on this thread, especially for those of us in creative industries, because it helps us determine what is right or wrong for us personally. I was a bit more on the fence until I had some time to read other opinions and such. And I still understand where those who are okay with this are coming from. But it's good food for thought, for sure.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-16T17:35:59-07:00

@Matt Timson internships have their place, and thats from some one that did an unpaid one for nine months and got told, "yeah, we have no need for an art department, we're gonna just be coders for hire"

sorry for going off topic, normal service will resume shortly

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-16T17:54:28-07:00

Re: internships, they can have their purpose but they have to offer compensation. The whole idea of having to do an unpaid internship before you are able to get a real job is completely reprehensible though.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-16T17:59:23-07:00

I think a major reason this discussion has been rubbing me the wrong way is having a background mainly in both academia and in IT. Both academia and IT have huge pipelines of volunteer labor providing content that gets monetized by others. This is quite explicit in the case of IT, where various Open Source licenses explicitly allow for the commercial use and resale of volunteer code. It is less apparent but probably worse in academia, as was pointed out earlier in the case of archaeology, where dig volunteers are needed to make the thing happen at all.

If one looks at an academic conference as a 'gig', though, then academia is built on this practice. Any academic conference will have a very few paid keynote speakers and organizers, and the majority of folks actually *paying* for the opportunity to come and contribute and present their work in the hope of getting noticed. This actually became a tense topic in my graduate program, as there were endless discussions about the funded/TA students (paid) and their roles in the program versus the unfunded students, who were often going into thousands of dollars worth of debt just for the chance to get the exposure to get a job.

Bringing it home and back to AFP: Some graduate programs now *will not accept* unfunded students for this reason - that it isn't fair to take the money of graduate students and expect them to provide all this unpaid content and labor just for a shot at an academic job after graduation. So now you have a case where there are programs who provide these unfunded opportunities, and those who don't. Are the ones who are providing, and soliciting, students for these unfunded graduate positions morally wrong for providing that additional opportunity (no matter what their gory profit motive may be)?

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-16T19:11:16-07:00

I generally like Amanda Palmer. Some of her music is good, some of it is decent, and as far as I can tell, she's a very good performer with great charisma. I'm certain she works hard at her music/touring. I supported her kickstarter (mostly I just wanted the artbook, to be fair) and bought concert tickets and am looking forward to dressing up in ridiculous rawk-star style attire for the show. As someone who follows her twitter etc, I'm not altogether surprised she did something like this, and she probably didn't mean any harm, but at the same time, it's a bit disappointing. She tends to make her music as cheap as possible, and is probably used to the doing everything on the cheap and not much thought about budgeting because everything goes day to day. It's an assumption, to be fair, but that's the feeling that I get. She's going to make mistakes, especially since she's all about trying new ways to do things. On the other hand, she really could benefit from getting advice on managing money etc. Oddbill seems to have explained it best.

She really should have offered pay. At least some pay.

If an artist/creative person/etc wants to give their art/music/etc away for free, that's fine. But asking artists/etc to contribute for free is pretty shitty stuff. The thing is, art is hard.* It's work. You have to apply yourself on a regular basis to really do anything. I'm a former artist as a result of that fact actually. It is so so much easier for me to go to a shitty job then it is to be consistent about working on my art. How's that for a thought? How many blogs are there out there dedicated to that one aspect of art? That making a point of just doing the fucking work is really really hard. And the mindset that artists/etc shouldn't expect to be paid because they do what they do for the love of it is just hideous. How many people have burned out because the work overpowered the love? I really respect working artists, those who are able to power through the rough patches and have the dedication to get it done.

*Interestingly, Amanda Palmer recently created a t-shirt with that horrific "restoration" (that picture is nightmare worthy to me) and the phrase "STOP PRETENDING ART IS HARD." The phrase being a quote from her song Ukelele Anthem.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-16T20:07:08-07:00

This seems like it belongs here for no real reason.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-16T21:00:35-07:00

Sorry if I upset anyone, I was maybe a little terse and, hopefully anyway, I was misunderstood. My rapid exit was due to already having been up too late, with a 14 hour shift to work today. Your forgiveness is hereby begged.

Here's where's my objection to oddbill's statement is coming from: I don't think I/you/we get to "insist" anything of artists. I think you have to just let them do their thing. The proprietorial notion that you can tell anyone what to do with their art is abhorrent to me. If they're not actively inciting violence or hatred or somesuch, I reckon they're free to go all out, do whatever they want. I also think that there is an implicit criticism being made of any artist who takes Palmer up on her offer, and it's that criticism that I have the biggest problem with, not the criticism of Palmer herself, which I can see as legitimate in certain regards.

As a result of the discussion about it here I raised the subject with some friends this evening and it turns out one of them is actually going to be part of an unpaid horns section for several of Palmer's larger gigs in the UK. So, he was pretty pissed off to hear about the 1m+ kickstarter etc, but he is still going to play the gigs. Why? Because Palmer can book better gigs in better places to bigger crowds than they can. And although they (he and his jamming buddies) are all pro musicians who could almost certainly book other gigs that night that they'd get paid for, they have all already pretty much decided that the Palmer gig is a better move for them. These are people that I know will fight tooth and nail to get paid by people who want to use their music, because yes, they have to be that way to make money from their work. But this represents an opportunity for them, and one they've collectively decided to jump at. They like her music.

A fair day's work for a fair day's pay. I am totally in support of that idea, even when it comes to the damned creatives. What I am arguing, seemingly in isolation, is that you cannot tell artists how to do their art.
If you have a different idea to them, by all means do it your way and best of luck to you, but you don't get to decide what is right and wrong for someone else's art and when you sit in judgement on Palmer and the people that will go to play for her for free, that is exactly what you're doing.

Again, I apologize. I'm not here to be argumentative, I just wanted to clear up the apparent misconception that I am somehow morally opposed to artists earning money from their work.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-17T02:44:47-07:00

None of us have singled out an artist for being a "scab"; our criticism is of Palmer's business practice.

Palmer intends to profit from this tour and started the project with a six figure budget.
She hired a core band and put them on salary.
She hires professional musicians for select venues and pays them the going rate (and one presumes some alcohol).
For less high profile venues Palmer solicits and auditions her fanbase for musicians of the same professional quality who are willing to provide their service in exchange for merchandise and alcohol. Palmer receives income from these venues.

These are business decisions, not artistic choices. We are not insisting anything from the artist; at the very least we are insisting that when a for-profit organisation fills creative roles these employees should be paid on scale with the other people that organisation has employed.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-17T04:46:11-07:00

She hired a core band and put them on salary.
She hires professional musicians for select venues and pays them the going rate (and one presumes some alcohol).
For less high profile venues Palmer solicits and auditions her fanbase for musicians of the same professional quality who are willing to provide their service in exchange for merchandise and alcohol.

Emphasis mine. That's what really gets me. She pays the going rate in big cities, for the juicy venues, where, I'm sure, the big time critics are, and then wants volunteers in the smaller places (where the going rate is cheaper anyways) that are lower profile.
That's the part that sticks in my craw. Either pay everybody, or have an all volunteer band. I don't care if you get people to play for you for t-shirts and hugs, I don't care if you don't mind playing for t-shirts and hugs, even though shit like this devalues every working artist's work, but at least be fucking consistent, seriously. It's really not fair to pay some people, and not others, based on venues, and some certain value of "professionalism".
There's always going to be professionals, and amateurs, in every type of human endeavor, and some amateurs are willing to pay to work with, or will work with professionals for free (see archeology digs), musicians jam, people collaborate on comics with no hope of making any money (although we seriously do hope to make some money, make our living) off them. I've done that, I still do it occasionally (for certain people, I always will). But, I'm not going to make art, or do lettering for Marvel, or DC (or most anyone else at this point) for free, because while I don't make a lot right now, art, etc. is my living.
To put it bluntly, comics, like many other things, is a big investment in time and skills, and if I'm going to work for free (or for t-shirts and hugs--I gave up drinking 12 years ago, so that's no incentive), I'd rather work on my own stuff, or at least have a big creative stake in a collaboration, not doing a 6 (or 120) page "work for hire" gig, with a property that belongs to someone else, to get "exposure" (people "die from exposure"). Although, to be perfectly honest, if Ellis asked me to do something with him (like that'll ever happen) for free, I would crawl through a mile of arse eels just to do so. Why? Because I know that in the end, even if I didn't end up making some money, I'd have worked with one of the greats.

Aaaaaaaand...
By taking this round about route through my fucking early morning, half cup of coffee brain, I've sort of made a case for Amanda Palmer, haven't I? Sigh. And yet, the whole thing does bother me, as a symptom of something, only the squid knows what.
5 minutes later I see where I've made my mistake. Working with Ellis, or anyone else, would be creating something, the thing with Amanda Palmer, is the musicians aren't creating with her, they are, essentially, just there to make her sound better, and nothing else. And there it is. It's all about AFP (yes I went there), and not about musical camaraderie, although maybe she, and the volunteer musicians don't see it that way.
That is all. I need mor coffee now.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-17T07:37:51-07:00

Since comic books are the argot or jargon or lexicon of our lovely community -

EDIT TO ADD - I'm shocked SHOCKED! that it took six pages of well-thought out commentary for this little ditty to come up.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-17T07:57:27-07:00

Also, I'd like to add that a) I had no idea Neil Gaiman had any ties to either vitamins or Scientology and regarded it as a joke-I-wasn't-in-on, until enough people "confirmed" it and b) I'm not sure that Alan Moore has anything whatsoever to do with Anonymous. I doubt he even knows who they are. And Alan Moore, as we all know, Knows The Score. (*ducks flying shoe*)

In addition, I don't see how mentioning Neil Gaiman's e-meter vitamin fortune (not counting, apparently, the vast stacks of comicbook'n'moviemoney) in any way insults, demeans or degrades AFP in any way. It may be "ugly" or "crass" to mention it (personally, I don't see it - then again, never been married to anyone, much less a millionaire) but the fact remains - if she needs money SOOOO badly, (and is willing to three-card monte other musicians into playing "for free", which is a bad thing as the Joker just told us) then there's, like, a room full of cash down the hall from her bedroom. This is germane to the conversation. If it were the other way 'round, and she was the millionaire, would we look down on Neil Gaiman if he said "Honey, can you back my little comic book? Just cover the printing costs, I'll get some fanboys to draw it for free." Hmmm?

EDIT TO ADD : I have met Neil Gaiman on more than one occasion and he's a helluva nice guy.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-17T09:27:11-07:00

music is just another type of art. It takes work to get good at it, and a lot of times it doesn't come cheap. The price of a good instrument can make me cringe.

This is a very good point. Edgar was once describing to me why getting someone to fix your computer can cost so much when they seemingly do it so fast (re: software, not hardware here), and they way he described it was that you're not just paying them for the time they took to fix your problem. You're also paying them for the fact that they invested years getting a proper education that lets them know what to do to fix the problem. So sure, it may just have taken a couple minutes, but that's only because they spent so long in the past getting that knowledge.

Same with art. It takes a lot of time and effort to get to the "professional" level status, and then when you start including the investment of professional level equipment, it gets crazy. My nice clarinet cost me $3k and that was with a $1k discount. When you pay an artist, it's not just paying them to say something, you're paying for the quality you're getting that's a result of all that time and effort they invested to get where they are.

As for Amanda Palmer demanding musicians of top-professional caliber, I really don't think that's the case. Maybe it is, but I got the impression that she just wants people who can be able to sight-read music well, work out the kinks after a brief rehearsal, and then be ready to go. Hence "Professional-ish....5th grade music lessons do not count." So I think a lot of us are criticizing her with different interpretations of the situation. I'm still in the camp that what she's doing isn't totally horrible because she put out a call for help on her blog, and was therefore trying to get help from fans who were likely to be at the concerts anyway; i.e. people who don't have to go out of their way for unpaid gig they couldn't care less for. For these same people, the entry to the concert + merch + experience (and we have to remember that people in general DO pay for experiences) is adequate compensation for their services. For others, that trade-off is not adequate and therefore will not do the gig for free, and that's okay, too.

I think the other part of the disconnect in some of our arguments, is I said above that I believe she asked for "help." Other people on online, I haven't really seen it here much, is that people are criticizing her as if she made this decision to knowingly take advantage of the situation and profit from it. I think she honestly didn't mean it that way, and believes that what she is doing is an actual call for help because she ran out of budget, and not a business decision to maximize profit. That said, what people did bring up here that is very legitimate, is that she quite possibly made some bad moves on fund management and that this whole mess is the result of making some very un-professional decisions. And given her experience and resources, she should have been able to avoid that.

edit: I could have sworn before I wrote the second half of this entry that I had something different to say, but it appears that I've again just repeated what I've already repeated in this thread. Apologies.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-17T11:43:40-07:00

My favorite snarky answer to a question:

"Wow! That's a cool painting! How long did it take you?"

"My whole life."

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-17T12:07:09-07:00

@Dorkmuffin
-I was waiting for someone to quote that. :D

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-17T13:41:08-07:00

ALBINI'S BACK! Because Amanda Palmer went, "OH STEVE ALBINI YOU'RE SO GRUMPY!" (he is notoriously grumpy) and he responded with, "no, you dumb crazy. You're conducting yourself in a manner unbefitting of your position."

(I'm paraphrasing)

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-17T13:52:18-07:00

a millionaire asking people to do things for free, under the guise that she is giving them something by indulging them. It’s cheapness repainted as generosity and it’s gross. Using people in this way, exploiting their good nature for one’s own benefit, is a cancer that taints many enterprises and it always reflects poorly on the exploiter.

Holy shit

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-17T14:35:26-07:00

This rumble between the two is pretty damn entertaining.

A lot of people in defence of Palmer have made some good points. Argos and others saying that doing this is unsurprising, as she's done this on other concerts and Raz provided some great examples from her own experience working in a theatre company. But in those scenarios not one of them seem to start with "After getting more than ten times the budget originally asked for...". Almost all the scenarios mentioned seemed to be regarding projects where people were strapped for cash to begin with and had no choice but to rely on the help of others with low to no pay, not a project that got above and beyond the asking budget, even with the deductions included (but not the earnings of ticket/merch sales included). Even if this is a matter of shitty money management, it still disturbs me. Even more so that she clearly seems to have money set aside to hire the musicians she needed for certain dates. This doesn't strike me as a tour of the romantic sort she describes, where all band members are crammed in to the back of a rundown Fiat, surviving on ramen, cigarettes and a prayer that they don't run out of gas and sometimes sleeping in the car if they have to, this strikes me as a tour that earned ten times it's original budget and has the ability to be as amazing as she wants it to be.

Was it dork a little back who remarked on how the hell she would have done this if she only got her asking budget of $100,000?

Really, Glukkake summed it up best for me: "Telling you that it's OK that I get a paycheck, but explaining that you should just settle for "being a part of the magic" is bullshit."

I get that fans would do this for free and I get how Palmer's request might seem to be just as innocent and experimental as she claims it is. But for her to not even offer a "pay what we can" right off the bat after exceeding the original budget seems pretty shitty to me not to mention very disappointing for someone who is for supporting artists.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-17T14:39:47-07:00

But is Amanda Palmer actually a millionaire? She did not have that much money prior to marrying Neil, and we don't know how they handle their finances as a couple (and have already established that his money doesn't need to fund her career). Further, she did not profit 1.2 mil from the kickstarter, and people are behaving as if she did. That quote has its truths if the person in question is in fact a millionaire, but save being married to Neil, Amanda Palmer is not a millionaire.

That's my main beef with the criticisms on Amanda Palmer over this: Saying it's not okay for her to do this because she's a millionaire is unfair to say because she isn't one. Saying it's not okay for her to do this because she mismanaged her kickstarter funds and that's her fault is another thing entirely, and is a totally fair criticism on her current business management. I honestly do not understand why people are still hanging onto the whole "It's not okay for millionaires to do this" argument, because it does not apply to this situation (again, given the constraint that Neil's money is out of the picture and Amanda is working entirely from her own income).

Otherwise, all other arguments I've seen discussed over this are totally fair, but I'm unwilling to accept an argument that's based on a misrepresentation of facts. Now, I could be wrong, and I realize that (and have mentioned that under such circumstance where Amanda were to be a millionare, I would not be okay with the volunteer musicians thing and would be amongst the voices of opposition), but Amanda Palmer as millionaire is just not the picture of her I've come to build, as someone who's been following her for a few years now.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-17T14:44:00-07:00

For at least a very short time, Ms. Palmer had 1.2 million dollars from Kickstarter to do as she pleased. 5% of that went to Kickstarter, but that still left her with 1.14 million dollars. Having over 1 million will make you a millionaire, at least temporarily.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-17T14:54:31-07:00

Except for the fact that a lot of that also had to go towards actually paying for the kickstarter incentives, such as all the turntables and summer care packages people bought. Once all that got taken care of, she was a millionaire no longer. You are forgetting to include the costs of the rewards, which also have to be considered before we can talk about how much was left for her to use to her own devices. Sure, in terms of gross income she was a millionaire at least temporarily until money was spent for the supplies, but in practice, given that a large portion of that was already set aside for the incentive supplies, she wasn't.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-17T14:57:02-07:00

And as I've said, that can't be ignored. My thing is that the money that was supposed to go to the TOUR aspect of the book/album/tour trio grew ten times even with the deductions.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-17T15:01:36-07:00

millionaire or not she and others are getting pay checks for each concert they are playing and others who are working just as hard (if not harder having to learn songs they have never done before) are not. To say there is no money to pay them is simply not true.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-17T15:03:55-07:00

@oldhat And that's true. I'm just annoyed with the "she's a greedy millionaire" argument because she isn't a millionaire. I'm arguing a technicality less than the morals of the situation, really. I'm vocabulary-nazi-ing and I apologize.

millionaire or not she and others are getting pay checks for each concert they are playing and others who are working just as hard (if not harder having to learn songs they have never done before) are not. To say there is no money to pay them is simply not true.

I am no longer arguing that. See above sentence.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-17T15:33:19-07:00

By th eway, if you don't know who Steve Albini is, and you find his music as a result of this, then that's a positive.

Here:

Bog Black Passing Complexions

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-17T15:49:07-07:00

I was firmly on Ms. Palmer's side at the start of this. I assumed that her post was probably worded badly, but I think that's because she assumed she knew who she was talking to (ie, her own fanbase). I initially thought people were up in arms over Amanda having the gall to simply ask first. I assumed she was asking for people who played in high school or whatever and haven't touched their horn since, or people that play jazz gigs on the side for the hell of it, or whatever. I really didn't assume she'd be a UNION BUSTER. I assumed she wasn't courting that sort of performer, at all. I figured it was a safer way of pulling a fan up on stage only to find out they couldn't play a lick of the song or didn't lock up under stage fright. I figured it was just being blunt, and then Steve Albini continuing be Steve by being blunt (and yes, I truly believe there is nothing Steve Albini likes, contrary to what he may say.) I figured it was the internet making a big deal out of Steve being Steve, and then half-assedly backing down after it became a big deal.

And then

However, when I learned that she paid (and budgeted?) for strings and horns in high profile locations (New York for example) that made me feel like the whole thing is not in fact the circle of love she’d like to present it as.

The fans going to see her in a high profile location get to see a tight, well crafted musical performance while fans in less high profile locations get an “experience” (good or bad).

That sort of irked me. In fact, it really irked me. She could have doubled down, and claimed volunteers the whole way, painted it as a big ol' act. Part of the show. People love to play with artists they love, or sit in on jazz night (you know where you're expected to at least be competent) or whatever, and I'm totally okay with that. Hell, she could have just owned up and said they'd be passing a hat at these all-volunteer shows on every night of the tour, and I'd have considered the whole thing over and done. "Whoops, I messed up, here's a little bit of consolation." And some people will still be perfectly happy with merch and beer and hugs and some time with the band. (Shit, entire fan clubs are based on just that last thing, at exorbitant amounts of money.) That would have been fine.

But essentially admitting that certain cities were getting paid professionals just... ugh. It's the exact opposite of what the entire conceit of the project was supposed to be. Hire professionals if you want professionals. Ask for volunteers if you want volunteers. (Honestly, I find nothing wrong with giving up half a day for a single rehearsal, three simplified songs, and getting into a show I'd be going to anyway for a band I liked a hell of a lot. The beers are just gravy there.) The whole message is muddled now. And for someone claiming WE ARE THE MEDIA at every opportunity, she has a tendency to get the message muddled more often than she probably should.

The thing is, I'm still going to the show in Chicago, along with a small entourage of people. I'm still waiting for my vinyl version of the album, which I haven't been able to stop listening to, even when trying. In the end, I think the whole situation is a strike against her, but I'm a fan, and I'm willing to chalk it up as "whatever". Hell, I didn't really start shitting on Metallica until Lulu, and even there I don't care because it was a one-off Lou Reed project that, ironically, got me into Lou Reed. I don't care for ripping into people I don't know over several things that I'm not privy to, least of all the motivation behind what are theoretically artistic decisions.

TL;DR - Amanda Fucked Up, But I Don't Care, Oasis Got My Letter etc

PS - The whole Neil should foot the bill/Scientology thing? Don't give two shits. Entirely irrelevant.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-17T16:16:58-07:00

@Oddcult - actually, I DID find out about Albini through this, heh. Edgar's been telling me a lot about him since I've been discussing this with him, too. So that is a plus.

@rickiep00h - that I do agree with. She's giving the finger, whether intentionally or not, at low-profile cities and even high profile cities that she just happens not to care for (and the musicians that reside in such cities), and that is fucked up.

@Dork & @Oldhat - just to clarify myself, I really do hope that, despite my arguments, it was evident that I did take your guys' arguments to heart and even agree with some of them, and that my arguments about her actions being okay were extremely qualified (eg I was arguing under the assumption that she legitimately ran out of budget). I just hope I'm not coming off like the one prick who doesn't think artistic effort isn't worth monetary value and it's okay to take advantage of artists >__<

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-17T16:34:16-07:00

@Oddcult, I've been listening to Big Black for the past three days. Aaahahaha.

ALSO! Shellac:

Shellac

MOAR BIG BLACK

@Argos, you'd have to try REALLY really hard to come off as a prick about anything. Never you fear. You communicated your intended argument wonderfully. I just argue. A lot. It's a problem I have.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-17T16:45:45-07:00

Can I just say that I find bringing AP's marital status, the money of her husband, where it came from, and the entire idea that she should somehow feel obliged to call upon that supposed wealth rather uncomfortable, somewhat prurient, and rather antifeminist? Marriage doesn't make two people with completely independent professional career arcs somehow automatically obliged to one another, and the fact of the matter is that AP seems to have gone *rather* out of her way to fund this thing through her own means - however one may choose to interpret what she does with that money.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-17T16:49:26-07:00

@Finagle - Don't, by any means, go into the original thread that contained Albini's post. I'd say about 4/5 of the posts are "I have no idea what's going on in this situation, but here's my two cents, plus it's a woman so BITCH CUNT WHORE NAKED PICS."

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-17T16:52:35-07:00

@rickiep00h, @finagle, yeah, the internet is full of dickweeds.

... But really.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-17T17:07:33-07:00

Steve Albini is why Nirvana.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-17T17:13:08-07:00

Steve Albini is why Pixies.

And many more.

(I know this doesn't have much to do with the actual purpose of the thread, but this list will boggle your mind. The man is behind a number of influential albums across a bunch of genres, including artists like Nirvana, the Pixies, the Jesus Lizard, PJ Harvey, Neurosis, Manic Street Preachers, Screaming Females, Slint, Hum, Screeching Weasel, Superchunk, etc etc etc)

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-17T17:18:51-07:00

I have no problem with the output of Steve Albini, I just think he's an insufferable jerk for no discernible reason beyond "indie cred", which, ironically, is a lot of the Palmer schtick that people hate.

/shrug potayto/potahto

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-17T17:39:33-07:00

@rickiep00h, oh, he's notoriously abrasive, but I've never really gotten the impression of it being for the reason of building "indie cred." He's already got "indie cred" (must use quotations because even that makes me throw up a little) in spades as a result of his career and doesn't need to prove it to anyone.

I think he's just a guy that doesn't have much patience for what he deems to be idiocy. Granted, in many instances he may be unjustly abrasive, but I can kind of admire him for not compromising. That said, I'm also kind of a curmudgeon (but a much more reserved one) so I can kind of sympathize.

His role in the industry, from the very beginning, has also been one of pundit. He has always spoken out against issues in music that he views as unethical, so it makes sense that he would have made a point of commenting on this issues. From his view (and from mine), the way Ms. Palmer has conducted herself is deeply unethical. Perhaps not intentionally, but as someone who has been making music for as long as she has, she should know better.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-17T18:00:57-07:00

Can I just say that I find bringing AP's marital status, the money of her husband, where it came from, and the entire idea that she should somehow feel obliged to call upon that supposed wealth rather uncomfortable, somewhat prurient, and rather antifeminist? Marriage doesn't make two people with completely independent professional career arcs somehow automatically obliged to one another, and the fact of the matter is that AP seems to have gone *rather* out of her way to fund this thing through her own means - however one may choose to interpret what she does with that money.

@ finagle - I'll respond, since I believe I was the one who brought it up (and keep mentioning it and all).

It *is* uncomfortable, to me at least, in that she is already a well-established artist with a fan base that supports her work. There are a lot (and I mean A LOT) of people who don't have the opportunities that she has, people on this very message board who are insanely talented and yet scraping by. But she feels the need to crowd-fund her tour by asking those with nothing to play for "free". Smacks of privilege and misplaced indie cred. "OH NOES, I'VE TORN MY PRE-TORN $800 DESIGNER JEANS!" kinda thing.

Secondly, I have no idea what their marriage is all about, the state of their finances, what have you. They probably don't have solid platinum toilets but I imagine they're very comfortable. Yes, she has gone out of her way to fund it herself (and as oldhat mentioned, received more funding than she was originally asking for), no, she didn't go running to the Sugar Daddy of Dreamland to fund her tour. Prurient? Perhaps. Germane? I think, certainly. Again, with the advantage that most of us will never have - access to funds within an existing relationship.

Finally, I'll reiterate what I said before. Let's say the position was reversed and Neil needed money to make a comic and she was richer than Crassus.More people buy music than comics, more people are conversant with music than comics. If he asked her for money for printing costs ("Don't worry, I'll get some fanboy to draw it for free - a professional fanboy, of course, who could be doing paying work while he works on my script. Warren Ellis keeps several locked up in his basement.") , would this be as inflammatory? More? Less? At all?

It comes down to privilege, for me, at least. Those that got, got a lot. Those that not? Here's a free beer and a tee-shirt, thanks for comin' out.

And may I say, THIS discussion is the kind of thing that Whitechapel's always excelled at. Many different points of view, cogently reasoned arguments (except for mine, apparently), no insults, lots of "Hmm. I read what you posted." If only all the Internet was like this. Then maybe we could have nice things.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-17T18:12:13-07:00

If only all the Internet was like this. Then maybe we could have nice things.

*sniff* I love you guys.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-17T18:39:31-07:00

@rickiep00h - I think Albini lost his "indy cred" when he produced Bush. :D

To me, Steve Albini is the music equivalent of Bill Mahr. Even when you agree with what he saying, you still think he's being a dick about it.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-17T19:02:35-07:00

Again, with the advantage that most of us will never have - access to funds within an existing relationship.

Again, she may not have access to that money. We don't know the specifics of their arrangement, and it is out of line to assume either way. If, by some matter of course, it came out that Mr. Gaiman had indeed financed even a small part of the tour itself, then I'd definitely change my mind on the question of her character. It likely would not change my fandom, as I think people can be complete asses and still turn out decent work.

As for

Finally, I'll reiterate what I said before. Let's say the position was reversed and Neil needed money to make a comic and she was richer than Crassus.More people buy music than comics, more people are conversant with music than comics. If he asked her for money for printing costs ("Don't worry, I'll get some fanboy to draw it for free - a professional fanboy, of course, who could be doing paying work while he works on my script. Warren Ellis keeps several locked up in his basement.") , would this be as inflammatory? More? Less? At all?

I'd have to say it's more inflammatory because there's a world of difference between full-time work for a month or more and an afternoon's worth of learning backing parts for three-ish songs. Were Palmer to take half a dozen pro musicians out on a full-scale tour and keep them tied up for a month-plus, I'd scream bloody fucking murder about it. Instead, she's asking some people--amateur/hobbyist/pro/whatever--in each (well... most. erg) city to give up half a day for some merch and some beer and some hang-out time. Yes, she COULD take out a full section, she COULD sequence it all, she COULD hire a second keyboardist for the parts, but she's doing it this way. That's her prerogative in my opinion, and if people are willing to play it and everyone involved has fun, great.

What confuses me so much about the whole thing is that there's a ton of people that have already said "sure, I've worked for free" and then qualified it with their own reason why. Would it seriously be that big of a deal had she not said "We can't afford it" and/or "professional-ish"? I honestly thought it was a poor choice of words that didn't communicate well, but hardly something to turn the whole thing into a giant labor dispute.

Of course, that was before the budget magically appeared in the bigger cities, before contrition became spin. The whole thing is a giant communication breakdown, and I think she's probably not handling that part as adeptly as she could. But considering she's also responsible for Evelyn Evelyn, it's probably not going to bother her much, nor the fanbase that doesn't actually know this is A Thing. It's all going to end up being a wash.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-17T20:41:30-07:00

Palmer made a point of how a significant chunk of the Kickstarter is going to pay back advance money on loan from her family to do the project. The flow of capital within her family (read Neil) toward the project and her fans paying it back made any discussion about family wealth fair game in this.

Reading over her disbursement message a few days back, she really didn't any hope to repay the $250K advance from her family (again, Neil)if it only earned the target $100K. If Amanda has other family outside of the already wealthy Neil that can float her $250K with no realistic potential of getting paid back, she's practically in Romney territory compared to most working musicians and has no business asking anyone to do any pro work for free.

It is utter bullshit for her to claim she needed to repay the $250K off the top of the 1.1 Million when her original target was just $100K. Where was the repayment in her original budget? The more I think about this the more it stinks.

~R

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-17T21:45:31-07:00

Clearly a full-scale inquest is required. WHERE'S THE BIRTH CERTIFICATE, PALMER?

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-18T01:06:14-07:00

Am I missing something?

She's not asking people to do this for nothing, but for merchandise and, presumably, a ticket as well as beer. Now if you sit down and work this out (Which I've done quickly) that would be $25 for a t-shirt and $25 for the ticket plus however much the beer would have cost (Say $5). Now assuming anyone involved isn't going to declare this as tax as no money has changed hands. If they got paid cash (If they are self employed) in the UK the way you are taxed they would have to be paid about $88 to get the same value for money, if that makes sense.

Edited to say I'm not claiming that all artists should be paid for their time in this way by any means, but there is a cash value to the payment even if no cash is changing hands.

My assumption, maybe wrong, is that this was aimed at competent hobbyists who are also fans, so being paid in kind the equivalent of $88 doesn't sound like a bad payday for an afternoon and a couple of songs.

However I think she made a big PR mistake by stating she'll pay people at the more high profile gigs.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-18T04:43:11-07:00

I had completely disregarded any of the "but her husband's a millionaire!" stuff because it took the focus away from Palmer's business practice with this project; but:

Palmer made a point of how a significant chunk of the Kickstarter is going to pay back advance money on loan from her family to do the project. The flow of capital within her family (read Neil) toward the project and her fans paying it back made any discussion about family wealth fair game in this.

Reading over her disbursement message a few days back, she really didn't any hope to repay the $250K advance from her family (again, Neil)if it only earned the target $100K

Now we're assuming it was Neil who bank rolled her and I can understand how, if you're living in a "but your husband's a millionaire!" world you'd want to pay the loan back so as to stand on your own two feet - but - if Plan A was to pay it back later she certainly had a lot of options with her initial budget (and expected sales revenue) and, for me, it further highlights her poor business decisions.

But, what’s interesting about this is – this exactly what record companies do! (The difference being the family don’t hold her copyright)

In many cases you sign with a record label and get a million dollar deal – but - that’s a loan that pays for album production, music videos etc. The artist then turns over money from the tour/sales to pay back the costs of production and any other advances.

So – we’re making a music industry of the future! – Where nothing’s changed and you can be independent so long as your family is wealthy enough to support your artistic endeavors! HAZZAR!

(Also, if the money was fronted by a record company I can’t imagine there’d be much of a debate surrounding the use of session musicians getting paid in kind while other session musicians get paid in full)

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-18T06:01:35-07:00

Conjecture. Again.

We are not privy to any details other that those we've specifically been given. Even if the bookkeeping is suspect, which it may be, we don't have enough information to know for sure.

I'm out of this conversation. I've said my piece, and no one is planning on changing their minds since there's obviously a giant conspiracy at foot to bilk people out of an afternooon's worth of "work".

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-18T07:14:48-07:00

It's not just an afternoon of work though.

It's precedent.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-18T09:57:45-07:00

I have to say, putting work in scare quotes like that -- making it "work" and suggesting it really isn't, is a pathetic note to leave on.

Performing is work, as has already been noted, it's one of those pesky details we do know about. So suggesting semi-and-pro musicians rehearsing and playing for a T-shirt and a beer alongside fully paid musicians for a paying audience aren't really working on top is just another shitty thing on top of being taken advantage of.

Also, "We are not privy to any details other that those we've specifically been given."

Obvious man is obvious, I guess, but we can boil down the details we've specifically been given to this: Palmer launched a Kickstarter for 100k and later added this project was already owing 250K. Were repaying the 250K a required commitment for this project, the target needed to be 350K. It's fair say the 250K didn't need to be repaid immediately (and wouldn't have were she to have only raised the 100K Kickstarter goal) and out of that chunk she took off the top of the 1.1 million she could have easily allotted the 35K for the musicians for the whole tour.

Even without speculation of who floated her the money in the first place, it still stinks.

~R

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-18T10:53:47-07:00

I don't quite see that, there are plenty of Kickstarter projects that aim to raise enough money to finish a product whose sale will then pay back other investors. Though it's yet more speculation, suppose she looked at the available funds/debts and laid out an "ideal" plan that happened not to have those musicians at some of the venues. Maybe she could get by with a laptop filling them in, whatever. Personally I'd feel pretty weird in her shoes, looking out into an audience knowing it contains people who could be making the show better, and would be happier doing so than watching.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-18T16:52:55-07:00

So here's a question I have, a bit of a tangent but it keeps with the theme.

Burning Man. What are people's thoughts on Burning Man given that:
1) All participants bring their own food and entertainment, no commerce is allowed, people set up their own theme camps and offer organize their own events. I think people who help actually set up the city infrastructure get discounts/free tickets, as do some Black Rock Rangers.
2) Tickets run about $300+ these days.
3) Artists who bring installations and musicians who perform get no discount. They pay full tickets, and bring their art out there. Many artists spend the better part of a year putting their installation together. Similarly, the people who run the theme camps (which is where the events take place) get no compensation.
4) Some artists gets grants if they submit an application. Not all artists do and grants don't always cover full costs. Musical performers get no grants, as they are for physical structures only.
5) Contrary to what many believe, Burning Man is a for profit LLC and founder Larry Harvey makes something like $100k+ annually, if what I was told is correct.

In short, BM founder makes a profit from people bring paying to bring their art out to a week long camping festival. Yes, MOST of the money from tickets goes towards paying for the BLM permit, renting the porta potties, the construction vehicles to lay down the infrastructure, and given that none of the artists get paid, no one gets caught in that "wait why am I the only person not getting paid?" scenario Oldhat mentioned. It also goes towards paying the salary of the people working at the BM San Francisco offices, who spend all year long organizing the event and filing all the proper paperwork for it to happen. I'm honestly not sure how much of that Larry Harvey even still does or if all he even does these days is make up each year's theme, I don't know. But at the end of it all, regardless of how much work he does, there is a man making a profit from people paying to bring their art to the desert. And if the $100k+ salary I've heard about is true (and it might not be, but I do know people who know people working directly with him), he's making much more than the basic "I need to be able to pay my bills if I'm to spend all my time organizing this event this year." Again, cos it's a for-profit LLC.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-18T16:57:20-07:00

@Argos -

There's no established Performance Large Puppetry Artists Union to stand up and protest that Large Puppetry Artists are being called upon to do Burning Man for free.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-18T17:22:40-07:00

No, and Larry Harvey isn't putting out a call for artists to come out and put up huge installations for free, they are choosing to go there purely of their own interests. I suppose it would be as if Amanda Palmer's fans started asking "Oh hey btw can I bring my instrument and play backup for you?" vs the current situation, which changes the ethics. I guess I was wondering if despite that, is it morally okay for Larry Harvey to be making that extra profit, but perhaps I just answered my own question. I just feel like if you take the situation specific details away, you end up with two situations in which a person is making a profit by way of artists going out of their way to perform/showcase their art/etc for free. It was argued that Amanda was taking advantage of her fans, can it be argued that Harvey is taking advantage of the fervent dedication people have towards Burning Man?

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-18T19:07:43-07:00

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-18T19:11:10-07:00

@ Argos - yes, it can be so argued. That said, hundred grand a year off Burning Man? That's nothing. I could make ten times that, if I really tried and I'm so bad with money, I'M EXCELLENT. (If he was really trying to screw people out of money, he's doing a lousy job at it, is what I'm saying.)

EDIT TO ADD - kperkins FTW.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-18T19:44:07-07:00

Yeah, I know it seems like a lot when you are coming from the position of being just at the beginning of your serious earning years, and are not involved in the world of corporate or business professional aspirants, but 100k is a decent but unremarkable middle class salary. Especially if that's what you are pulling in after almost 10 years of essentially being CEO of your own startup.

Frankly, if he founder of burning man is only pulling 100k per year as personal income from it, that is indicative of shocking, almost mythological honesty.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-18T20:49:41-07:00

Follow-up to @Kperkins

More jumping the shark.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-19T02:20:58-07:00

Dorkmuffin. You Win! LOL

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-19T07:20:39-07:00

Well then, fair enough. I guess from my perspective of having recently been a broke college student with parents in the 50/60k salaries, 100k just has that air of "the next level" for me.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-19T10:06:50-07:00

@Argos -it also depends upon where you live too. 100K might not go as far when you compare housing prices/living expenses between locations.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-19T10:32:22-07:00

'100k is a decent but not remarkable middle class salary'

uhh

this thread started going in more and more bizarre circles about 3 pages ago

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-19T10:46:46-07:00

@ joe.distort - again, depends upon where you live. $500k can get you a palatial spread in some parts of the country, but in Los Angles it could only get you a modest 2 bed room house under 1000 square feet.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-19T11:14:56-07:00

Is this conjecture or fact?

... claim she needed to repay the $250K off the top of the 1.1 Million when her original target was just $100K.

I'm on a phone, so research blows. But this has serious legal implications. You can't fundraise and then introduce extra costs after the fact. That's gotta be prosecutable.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-19T11:24:48-07:00

@ allana - I never thought about it before, but can a Kickstarter project be sued by backers because of a misuse/mismanagement of funds?

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-19T12:01:35-07:00

@ allana

Stated goal on Kickstarter : $100,000

From Kickstarter : Update 5

first i’ll pay off the lovely debt - stacks of bills and loans and the like - associated with readying all of the stuff that had to happen BEFORE i brought this project to kickstarter.
for the past 8 months or so, i wasn’t touring - and therefore wasn’t making much income - but every step of the way, there were expenses. so, during that time, i borrowed from various friends and family who i’d built up trust with over the years.

i had to pay my staff and crew to get this album ready as well as keep the ship afloat and headed in the right direction. i also needed to come up with the cost of the recording itself (which was pretty whopping), and any other expenses the band racked up in the meanwhile.
to put a number on all of that behind-the-scenes stuff which just got us to DAY ONE of kickstarter: $250,000.
terrifying? damn straight.
but to do this the way i knew it needed to be done, that was just a bet i had to take against myself.
i’m a truly lucky person to have been able to float myself without having to simultaneously tour and break my back.
i’ve also worked my ass off for years to build the kind of trust that built me that line of credit with people.

SO.
let’s subtract that from the $1,000,000 we theoretically make on kickstarter.
that takes us down to about $750k.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-19T12:26:39-07:00

I09 runs a story and makes note of several of the issues I've had, which is nice and affirming and some I thought were suspicious but I wasn't going to start speculating on CD costs.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-19T13:49:07-07:00

either side of the argument you are on, you gotta admit that PShop pic is kind of funny.

knowing something about art book printing cost and having friends who have had vinyl pressed, those are government contractor prices. this doesn't look like it's going to just go away for her. I wonder how long it will take for her to start a Kickstarter campaign to raise money for her to hire a PR firm?

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-19T14:38:51-07:00

And Amanda Palmer just released a blog entry saying she is (and has already begun) paying the backup musicians: http://www.amandapalmer.net/blog/20120919/

Hooray for her!

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-19T14:50:25-07:00

That io9 article is very good, and I think puts a good light on the accountability angle.

For the record, I'm also backing Templesmith (et al) in his TOME project, which has consistently and constantly been adding more and more shit to the book as the funding has gone up. While this isn't exactly debts in arrears a la Palmer, terms and costs change all the time on Kickstarter, so it's not endemic to this one example. A good most of us, when faced with a hell of a lot of money we didn't expect, would probably pay off debts and make the project bigger. Her accounting may be/probably is suspect, but at the same time I don't begrudge her spending money that was willingly given if she's delivering on her promised rewards.

And of course, now that she's paying musicians, everyone will bitch because that wasn't announced at first and now all these spots that could have been taken by Real Professional Musicians are now being held by Rank Amateurs, so I doubt that particular shitstorm is going away (nor will the entrenched sides change their opinions).

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-19T14:57:12-07:00

Excellent.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-19T15:00:44-07:00

Glad that she's paying them now. She definitely grumbled about it in that blog post, but she's doing it and I'm happy.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-19T15:02:58-07:00

Re: the 100k thing, I should have been more specific that it applies to living in a location like Manhattan, Los Angeles or San Francisco (i'm guessing the founder of Burning Man is in the Bay Area) - 100k is a decent but not remarkable middle class salary. You would need to be frugal on that salary to raise a family in middle class living conditions.

And if you consider Burning Man as a startup, founded 10 years ago, and still a growing success that employs several full time and seasonal employees, 100k per year is an astonishingly small amount comparatively for a founder to be getting at this stage.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-19T15:12:59-07:00

@oddbill - exactly. I live in Los Angeles now and everything cost way more than where I grew up in New Jersey. money doesn't go very far here and it's not like I live (or expect) an extravagant life style.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-19T15:49:09-07:00

Ah, you know what, I totally forgot that he lives in S.F., and I know people who had to move out of the proper city because they can't afford rent anymore. So, fair enough.

Reading the new Amanda blog post, I'm glad to hear people are getting paid, that is always nice. I'm not surprised she is grumbling in the post though, I mean, wouldn't you if you were her? Sure, in this thread we all discussed in a friendly manner, but some of the comments out there were truly hateful. In the post oldhat originally tweeted about, there were comments like "Great, now i have more reason to hate that talentless bitch. That's how the rich get richer." Really vile comments directed at her. So yeah, I'd be grumbled, too - you need a tough skin to deal with that shit.

edited to clarify: by "out there" I meant the non-whitechapel internet space.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-19T16:56:27-07:00

I would hope no one begrudges the people receiving the money. As she stated in her call, it's for professional-ish - people who can show up to rehearsal, learn a piece of music in an afternoon, then rock out to an audience. They deserve that money.

The vitriol that woman gets for both success and missteps is just awful. Wish more people could understand that you can disagree with someone's actions while not hating them on a personal level (y'know, when felonies aren't concerned).

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-19T17:07:54-07:00

@glukkake - and not really replying directly to you, but riffing off what you said -

Yes, indeed. As I said before, I really severely dislike the JANE YOU IGNORANT SLUT tone this thread has taken. There is a stink level of OH FUCK THAT GREEDY WOMAN in all the objections to AP's work in this thread that has left a severely bad taste in my mouth.

Steve Albini RAPEMAN commenting on the whole thing hasn't really hurt the irony level. There's a level that I am just not comfortable with here involving some severe class envy and bringing her husband into it that I will just never be comfortable with. A level involving shaming AP for what she does. Something that reeks to me of "cutting down the tall poppies." Congratulations all.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-19T17:22:16-07:00

@ Finagle - I'm sorry you feel that way. I'm also somewhat confused, as nowhere in this thread have I seen anything like anything you've mentioned. (Yes, I'm the guy that brought up Neil Gaiman. I have attempted to explain why I did this and why I feel it's germane to the conversation.)

It seems everyone is happy with the result of this thread and "nobody died, it all worked out", as a friend of mine used to say. Musicians are getting paid, people shared their opinions in the respectful Whitechapel way and now we all move on to the Next Thing. No one, at any time, pulled a Dan Ackroyd (I'm old enough to remember watching that sketch live) and as to class envy ... well, maybe a little bit.

If you'd like, we can go out into the virtual alley and have a virtual fist-fight and then be friends again? First round's on me. I don't know what else to say.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-19T17:56:03-07:00

While I think there may have been an unfair amount of internet hate piled on in this thread, it's nowhere NEAR as bad as other places I've seen it discussed. The weird Scientology arranged-marriage thing sort of came out of left field, and there was some gleeful shark-jump claims, but it remained mostly civil even without the fear of arse eels hanging above our... arses...

While the whole situation didn't come out wine and roses, and there are still a lot of big questions on how to plan for a business expenditure like a tour, I'm content with nobody died, it all worked out.

I am now re-excited for the Chicago show, knowing that all parties with immediate interest in putting it on will be accounted for. (Theoretically.)

edit: PS I miss you guys sometimes, but this school thing is a pain in the ass. Glad we could have a chat again.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-19T18:22:13-07:00

I'm gonna go ahead and be the bitch here: How much is she paying them?!?!?!?!

Ahem, and enough of the lolz.

[Maybe we should carry the Kickstarter-and-accountability discussion over to the Kickstarter thread? I'm still interested in that aspect, for sure. I guess you just sign a disclaimer when you pledge to something that says "If it doesn't get funded, it doesn't go through," and that's all there is? I mega-support a fundraising maximum -- say, your goal plus twenty percent? If you want to edit your project once it gets rolling, just start a second one and do all your even-better-isms over there.]

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-19T18:27:03-07:00

Forgot obligatory lovefest mention: It's nice to have some good feisty action on these here boards again.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-19T18:47:11-07:00

I still think that a discussion should be made on crowdsourcing-as-employment, kickstarter accountability and the debate on whether or not doing what you love = work, as those are really good conversations to have and a lot of people have different views.

And you know, there was some hate going around (and the Neil Gaiman's financial role/Scientology discussion was...well), but there was none of the truly horrible stuff that other places went to and I think on the whole people tried to be respectful while arguing their point. I know in my points I tried to ignore that I wasn't a fan of Amanda Palmer's work or her as a person and tried to look at it for what it was.

Hooray Whitechapel. Good to have another lively discussion on here. Been a while.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-19T18:56:46-07:00

Good to have another lively discussion on here. Been a while.

THIS.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-19T19:19:18-07:00

Remember Orwellseyes? He could put the cat amongst the pigeons. And where's Looneynerd these days? He'd smack ya with BOOK-LEARNIN'. Yep, good to see we still got the fire in the belly ...

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-19T19:20:55-07:00

I actually think I heard that orwellseyes passed away. And Looneynerd just got sick of things.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-19T19:27:32-07:00

Aw, jeez, he said, exactly like Moe the Bartender.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-19T20:14:18-07:00

I do remember orwellseyes had a cancer scare and was gone for a year of living in the face of the end, but briefly came back when it looked like maybe the end was deferred. Then he just stopped posting.

Looney was in Turkey, last I recall. He used to tweet sporadically.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-20T01:20:20-07:00

I was going to suggest there could be a 'Where Are They Now' thread, but going on this evidence it could be a bit of a downer.

To get back on thread, it's good that Amanda Palmer is paying the musicians, it's just a pity she had to go through such a rigmarole to do it.

Will

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-20T02:46:48-07:00

What this shows is that 'Fuck you, pay me' has a lot of weight of support behind it and anyone in future that wants to say that can point at this and confidently say that when someone who's making money from something wants people to work for them, they shouldn't expect it for free or 'exposure'.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-20T03:28:29-07:00

I've lurked in this discussion because I really couldn't figure out which side I was on (was slowly erring towards the 'she should pay them...' camp fwiw).

But it has been an extremely interesting and well conducted debate, and yes, in marked contrast to a lot of other places.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-20T09:04:45-07:00

I was sure I was going to see orwellseyes on Oprah someday with a best selling autobiography. What a life. :-(

------------------------------------------------

I’m just trying to finish this off for myself: I find it interesting that the money to pay the session musicians came from her music video budget as motion picture creative’s have strong union protections (assuming her plan was to use a unionised director and crew) and that she had thought to put that money aside from the early “Update 5” budget – but, fuck that ‘cause this is done - now I wondering what comes next....

I think Palmer’s problem was reconciling her old business model with the one now expected of her by her fans/supporters who feel she has broken through to a higher level of the entertainment industry and (more awkwardly) a secondary audience of people watching the “experiment” unfold who expect her to meet the same professional standards as a public corporation.

It’s tough to be the first (or most high profile) person to do something and to have to write the rule book as you go. The principals and mechanisms for the governance of crowd sourced funding for artistic products haven’t been established yet.

I hope these develop organically through funding communities until a generally accepted model appears.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-20T10:05:13-07:00

30,000 TO PRESS AND SHIP 1500 7"S

ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME

hahahahahah

while i dont think the whole 'asking fans to learn 3 songs and play for a guest list spot + tab' isnt that bad, this is the kind of horseshittery that still makes me question everything this woman does. that price would put this at 3x the cost of even the most expensive boutique labels

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-20T10:15:08-07:00

@ joe.distort - yes but the covers for those 7"s are woven together by the finest gossamer thread made by an almost extinct spider that can only be found in the darkest jungles of the Amazon.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-20T15:14:02-07:00

Looneynerd dropped in some months ago, I remember. That man knew his Levantine history.

And is that true about orwellseyes? Because ... Aw, jeez.

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-20T21:17:22-07:00

@joe.d

It ain't seven inches, sir. According to the Kickstarter, the $30,000 is going to ship and press a vinyl package of: "two 180 gram black records in a gatefold package. includes a set of heavy-stock inserts with artwork, lyrics, and photographs. PLUS deluxe digital download & thank-you card."

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-21T08:27:54-07:00

the breakdown that was linked didnt really specify. 30,000 for 1500 double LPs isnt insane. not a GOOD price, but its not batshit crazy

Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

2012-09-25T18:40:39-07:00

I'd like to thank everyone for reminding me why this is my favorite forum, and while I don't participate much, when I do comment online, it's usually here at Whitechapel. Even with the above mentioned left-field entries, this is the place to find well thought out posts, and not a lot of vitriol. I hadn't stepped in because like a couple have said already, others have said it for me. I'm very glad this thread didn't turn radioactive.

That said, I'll be doing more theater, short films and the like for love, lunch or lucre, because while I'm a professional, this whole thing solidified for me that my favorite people in the world are creative types who know their worth, sometimes even making a living at what they do... and then volunteering when it's something they love.

Thanks to everyone who participated.