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London Zoo: Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

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    • CommentAuthorandycon
    • CommentTimeSep 14th 2012
     (10831.1)
    wrestling is a weird business my friend
    • CommentAuthorArgos
    • CommentTimeSep 14th 2012
     (10831.2)
    Until she offers to open shows for you for free...


    She didn't open for them, but in that tumblr post I linked to, she mentioned that just a few days ago, one of the opening bands at a bard college she played at asked her if she would sing with them for a song. And she did, she went out of her way to drive herself to their rehearsal space to learn the song, and then the night of the gig played with them before going on stage with her own band, all for no pay. Not to mention that a random person in Boston once asked her to come to his room and listen to him play when he saw her walking by, and she did, and loved it so much she ran a kickstarter on his behalf. She might not personally be my friend, as her fan, but she does do stuff like that all the time. As she said in her post, all it takes is asking, and maybe you'll get a yes. Granted she hasn't done that to every fan, but she hasn't only taken from them, either.
  3.  (10831.3)
    @agentarsenic As this programme from the uk in the nineties shows you can get people to do anything for their few seconds in the sun http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TKyNyJYGcFQ
    •  
      CommentAuthordorkmuffin
    • CommentTimeSep 14th 2012
     (10831.4)
    THIS THIS THIS THIS from @TF:

    However, when I learned that she paid (and budgeted?) for strings and horns in high profile locations (New York for example) that made me feel like the whole thing is not in fact the circle of love she’d like to present it as.

    The fans going to see her in a high profile location get to see a tight, well crafted musical performance while fans in less high profile locations get an “experience” (good or bad).


    Also the comments about her not being your friend. Because true.


    Also re: the Gaiman thing, knowing the guy who wrote that? There's no way he meant "Gaiman needs to help bankroll her tour." He doesn't actually say that, if you read it again. Plus, the guy added in the comments: "Sorry, was totally kidding about that — obviously I don’t expect Gaiman to finance Palmer’s music." Sometimes writers say things for comedic/hyperbolic effect. And sometimes they have the balls to say, "guys, you're right, and I don't agree that he should finance her music. But uh, take a joke?"

    HOWEVER in my opinion Gaiman is relevant to the discussion in the following way:

    Gaiman has fucktons of money. He probably knows how to manage it. Ms. Palmer, who has DEFINITELY proven herself after this fiasco to be somewhat shoddy at handling cash moneys, could have asked for his help in managing funds. Or he could have offered advice. Or WHATEVER. Couples talk about things when they're couples.
  5.  (10831.5)
    @ dorkmuffin - yeah I read about that two tier treatment for the concerts and I thought that was a little shitty. sorry people of Cleveland...you should've seen the New York show.
    •  
      CommentAuthordorkmuffin
    • CommentTimeSep 14th 2012
     (10831.6)
    Re the New York thing, some people raised the point over in the comments in the Stereogum post about Palmer's response saying that New York was her record release show. However, the post author found it important to note (and I agree) that it wasn't JUST New York. It was a few cities.

    Also, here is Palmer's original solicitation:

    “we’re looking for professional-ish horns and strings for EVERY CITY to hop up on stage with us for a couple of tunes … you need to know how to ACTUALLY, REALLY PLAY YOUR INSTRUMENT! lessons in fifth grade do not count, so please include in your email some proof of that (a link to you playing on a real stage would be great, or a resume will do. just don’t LIE…you’ll be embarrassed if you show up for rehearsal and everyone’s looking at you wondering why you can’t actually play the trombone.)”


    That's the part that kills me. This is not just volunteering. This isn't "OH MAN I GET TO PLAY WITH MY FAVORITE BAND!" This is, frankly, total bullshit. Palmer done fucked up.

    (also that Stereogum post contains the 2800 word response (!!!!!!!!) she wrote to a classical musician who had some beef with the way she went about this. I strongly encourage reading the excerpts, but no one can be expected to read that whole fucking thing)
  7.  (10831.7)
    @dorkmuffin my comment about Gaiman wasn't aimed at anyone in particular, rather it has been mentioned a couple of times in this thread so was more an observation on that than a comment on the piece linked. He maybe as useless at managing his money, but probably employs better financial advisors. Now he could have put her onto them. Maybe bought her a couple of hours financial planning as a Valentine's Day gift.
  8.  (10831.8)
    “we’re looking for professional-ish horns and strings for EVERY CITY to hop up on stage with us for a couple of tunes … you need to know how to ACTUALLY, REALLY PLAY YOUR INSTRUMENT! lessons in fifth grade do not count, so please include in your email some proof of that (a link to you playing on a real stage would be great, or a resume will do. just don’t LIE…you’ll be embarrassed if you show up for rehearsal and everyone’s looking at you wondering why you can’t actually play the trombone.)”

    ugh...how about you get what you pay for? as a working artist I still get hit up for free work...I doubt if I was an electrician or a plumber that would happen as frequently.
  9.  (10831.9)
    @William you would get hit up for free work still, but would tell them to fuck off. Again artists really need to grow some and tell people asking them to work for conditions they don't think are fair. Set your own standards and stick to them. I submit work to places that don't pay, but they're are very specific ones I want to support. However I WOULD NEVER pay to be published.
    People are obviously going and playing for her for free and they need to take some responsibility for perpetuating this surely? They're adults. They can wipe their own backsides. They can make their own career decisions. Palmer hasn't brainwashed them, so they have to be held partly culpable for perpetuating this. The problem is that in creative industries there will always be someone willing to do the work for free just to get that acknowledgement, so my question is how do we make that C change to a point where this doesn't happen?
    •  
      CommentAuthordorkmuffin
    • CommentTimeSep 14th 2012
     (10831.10)
    @Toase, I didn't mean that as an attack on you. I just meant that as a general response to what has been said in this thread. I figured I'd clarify.
    • CommentAuthorArgos
    • CommentTimeSep 14th 2012
     (10831.11)
    Gaiman has fucktons of money. He probably knows how to manage it. Ms. Palmer, who has DEFINITELY proven herself after this fiasco to be somewhat shoddy at handling cash moneys, could have asked for his help in managing funds. Or he could have offered advice. Or WHATEVER. Couples talk about things when they're couples.


    This is absolutely true.
    • CommentAuthorArgos
    • CommentTimeSep 14th 2012 edited
     (10831.12)
    One thing I wanted to throw in re: not doing free work for exposure, and the comparison to trade workers such as plumbing and stuff. My mother is an apartment manager and my father does maintenance for the same company. The contractors the company employs constantly offer to do free work for them - repainting the walls, professional carpet cleaning, free cable from ATT, etc. etc. The way my mother explained it to me years back, the contractors do this because by offering free services to the employers, the employers then refer them to the residents. Granted the situation is a bit different from the AFP thing because she's not personally referring every volunteer musician, but I did want to point out that doing free work for recognition is not unique to the art world. My primary experience with it has actually been with trade skill workers.

    I realize this doesn't apply in exactly the same way as it does with artists as the conditions are different, but I thought it might be worth throwing it. My family has personally received free services from trade skill contractors multiple times for many, many years, but we've also paid full bills when we've needed to. It's a mix of both.

    edited to add: This discussion reminds me of when the whole deferred action thing passed recently. There was a debate going on between immigrants and lawyers because some people were saying not to hire any lawyers who won't work for free (to avoid scams, which does happen with immigration cases), and lawyers saying they won't work for free and not to lump them in with the scammers (the "notarios") just because they require a fee to their work. In that argument I was actually arguing on behalf of lawyers who don't work pro-bono, because again, it's their right to do that (and as some would argue, your responsibility when that's how you make a living) and I don't think there's any one right way to contract yourself; I personally paid my own immigration lawyer his full fee when I needed a lawyer. But it illustrates that the whole "well fine I'll just go find someone else to do it for free" does happen with other professions, too. Maybe more often than not with lawyers because it's easy to attack them and call them heartless for not working pro-bono for someone who is both a good person and poor, I really don't know, but it happens.

    edited again to add: Not saying the fact that it happens with other professions too makes it any more okay or anything, it just seemed like people were arguing that this doesn't ever happen with other professions. It does.
    •  
      CommentAuthormoali
    • CommentTimeSep 14th 2012
     (10831.13)
    Two words. Harlan Ellison.

  14.  (10831.14)
    this is what happens when artists don't charge for their work as well:

  15.  (10831.15)
    And looked at where they ended up because of that genius plan. (The second post down is the guy in the video's resignation letter, further down is the whole sorry tale of woe)
  16.  (10831.16)
    @dorkmuffin no worries. I didn't think you did. TBH this is one of the only forums I really contribute to because even when people disagree there seems to be space to express opposing views without veering to reductive argumenting. I just wanted clarify where I was coming from. I'm going to go back to drinking Goergia Moonshine whiskey and watching British folk documentaries.
  17.  (10831.17)
    @ Jamie Heron - yup, but that guy got a golden parachute. the artists? not so much.
  18.  (10831.18)
    @ William Joseph Dunn: Yeah, one (pf the many) of the horrifying things about it all was the story of the family who'd moved from New Hampshire, down to Florida on the promise of a job, that is now unavailable.
    • CommentAuthorallana
    • CommentTimeSep 14th 2012 edited
     (10831.19)
    Has anyone mentioned interning yet? (oic, Finagle did; good on you.)

    This is one of the biggest problems with our education system right now: you graduate with tons of student debt and then the only way to get your galdang foot in the galdang door is with months more labour and debt. And then maybe they might offer you a job at the end, unless no one's retired lately, in which case they replace you with a new fresh-faced intern. Doing work for free is totally balls, guys, but there's this culture that demands it. If you withhold your labour under "principles," some other ambitious youngster is gonna get in there and make your opportunities all dry up.

    That's the only thing that irks me about this. Amanda Palmer wants interns. All the skill you don't have to pay for, because they don't have experience or connections.
    And the only thing you're ever vaguely promised with an internship is maybe some networking and maybe some promotion and maybe some stuff to put in your portfolio. And that really fucking blows. It's the way it is, of course, but it's really friggin' unfortunate. It's symptomatic of a greater issue in our workforce: too much fucking specialized skill, too many high-level accreditations, way too much supply for the demand, and now we're all at each other's throats for these Marvelous Opportunities. Guuuuuuuh.
    (Which is why we're slowly incorporating "Practicums" and internships into our education system, so maybe you can have a job offer waiting for you when you graduate, and beat the rat race? Except most likely not, for the scenario detailed above. Student aren't warned to make themselves absolutely indispensable when they have the chance.)
    • CommentAuthorallana
    • CommentTimeSep 14th 2012
     (10831.20)
    Why can't these artistic collaborations be like co-operative business ventures? Depending on how much you perform, you get a specified share in the profits, whatever they may be. Even if that share is $2 for each lowly small-town trombonist, at least it's a token, and there's the implicit motivation to help the tour earn more -- bring out all your friends, etc.
    What they should do is write some fucking contracts for this shit.

    And my next question: How the fuck did she plan on funding ANY of the shit she has been planning since the beginning, with her original goal of $100k? (?!!!?!?!) I mean, turntables packages at $500 a pop and it would cost her 50% ($150 turntable + $100 vinyl/cd/art book) of that just to make them? The mismanagement of the money should've been apparent months ago.

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