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      CommentAuthordorkmuffin
    • CommentTimeSep 17th 2012
     (10831.1)
    For at least a very short time, Ms. Palmer had 1.2 million dollars from Kickstarter to do as she pleased. 5% of that went to Kickstarter, but that still left her with 1.14 million dollars. Having over 1 million will make you a millionaire, at least temporarily.
    • CommentAuthorArgos
    • CommentTimeSep 17th 2012 edited
     (10831.2)
    Except for the fact that a lot of that also had to go towards actually paying for the kickstarter incentives, such as all the turntables and summer care packages people bought. Once all that got taken care of, she was a millionaire no longer. You are forgetting to include the costs of the rewards, which also have to be considered before we can talk about how much was left for her to use to her own devices. Sure, in terms of gross income she was a millionaire at least temporarily until money was spent for the supplies, but in practice, given that a large portion of that was already set aside for the incentive supplies, she wasn't.
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      CommentAuthoroldhat
    • CommentTimeSep 17th 2012
     (10831.3)
    And as I've said, that can't be ignored. My thing is that the money that was supposed to go to the TOUR aspect of the book/album/tour trio grew ten times even with the deductions.
    • CommentAuthorandycon
    • CommentTimeSep 17th 2012
     (10831.4)
    millionaire or not she and others are getting pay checks for each concert they are playing and others who are working just as hard (if not harder having to learn songs they have never done before) are not. To say there is no money to pay them is simply not true.
    • CommentAuthorArgos
    • CommentTimeSep 17th 2012 edited
     (10831.5)
    @oldhat And that's true. I'm just annoyed with the "she's a greedy millionaire" argument because she isn't a millionaire. I'm arguing a technicality less than the morals of the situation, really. I'm vocabulary-nazi-ing and I apologize.

    millionaire or not she and others are getting pay checks for each concert they are playing and others who are working just as hard (if not harder having to learn songs they have never done before) are not. To say there is no money to pay them is simply not true.


    I am no longer arguing that. See above sentence.
    • CommentAuthorOddcult
    • CommentTimeSep 17th 2012
     (10831.6)
    By th eway, if you don't know who Steve Albini is, and you find his music as a result of this, then that's a positive.

    Here:

    Bog Black Passing Complexions
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      CommentAuthorrickiep00h
    • CommentTimeSep 17th 2012 edited
     (10831.7)
    I was firmly on Ms. Palmer's side at the start of this. I assumed that her post was probably worded badly, but I think that's because she assumed she knew who she was talking to (ie, her own fanbase). I initially thought people were up in arms over Amanda having the gall to simply ask first. I assumed she was asking for people who played in high school or whatever and haven't touched their horn since, or people that play jazz gigs on the side for the hell of it, or whatever. I really didn't assume she'd be a UNION BUSTER. I assumed she wasn't courting that sort of performer, at all. I figured it was a safer way of pulling a fan up on stage only to find out they couldn't play a lick of the song or didn't lock up under stage fright. I figured it was just being blunt, and then Steve Albini continuing be Steve by being blunt (and yes, I truly believe there is nothing Steve Albini likes, contrary to what he may say.) I figured it was the internet making a big deal out of Steve being Steve, and then half-assedly backing down after it became a big deal.

    And then
    However, when I learned that she paid (and budgeted?) for strings and horns in high profile locations (New York for example) that made me feel like the whole thing is not in fact the circle of love she’d like to present it as.

    The fans going to see her in a high profile location get to see a tight, well crafted musical performance while fans in less high profile locations get an “experience” (good or bad).

    That sort of irked me. In fact, it really irked me. She could have doubled down, and claimed volunteers the whole way, painted it as a big ol' act. Part of the show. People love to play with artists they love, or sit in on jazz night (you know where you're expected to at least be competent) or whatever, and I'm totally okay with that. Hell, she could have just owned up and said they'd be passing a hat at these all-volunteer shows on every night of the tour, and I'd have considered the whole thing over and done. "Whoops, I messed up, here's a little bit of consolation." And some people will still be perfectly happy with merch and beer and hugs and some time with the band. (Shit, entire fan clubs are based on just that last thing, at exorbitant amounts of money.) That would have been fine.

    But essentially admitting that certain cities were getting paid professionals just... ugh. It's the exact opposite of what the entire conceit of the project was supposed to be. Hire professionals if you want professionals. Ask for volunteers if you want volunteers. (Honestly, I find nothing wrong with giving up half a day for a single rehearsal, three simplified songs, and getting into a show I'd be going to anyway for a band I liked a hell of a lot. The beers are just gravy there.) The whole message is muddled now. And for someone claiming WE ARE THE MEDIA at every opportunity, she has a tendency to get the message muddled more often than she probably should.

    The thing is, I'm still going to the show in Chicago, along with a small entourage of people. I'm still waiting for my vinyl version of the album, which I haven't been able to stop listening to, even when trying. In the end, I think the whole situation is a strike against her, but I'm a fan, and I'm willing to chalk it up as "whatever". Hell, I didn't really start shitting on Metallica until Lulu, and even there I don't care because it was a one-off Lou Reed project that, ironically, got me into Lou Reed. I don't care for ripping into people I don't know over several things that I'm not privy to, least of all the motivation behind what are theoretically artistic decisions.

    TL;DR - Amanda Fucked Up, But I Don't Care, Oasis Got My Letter etc

    PS - The whole Neil should foot the bill/Scientology thing? Don't give two shits. Entirely irrelevant.
    • CommentAuthorArgos
    • CommentTimeSep 17th 2012 edited
     (10831.8)
    @Oddcult - actually, I DID find out about Albini through this, heh. Edgar's been telling me a lot about him since I've been discussing this with him, too. So that is a plus.

    @rickiep00h - that I do agree with. She's giving the finger, whether intentionally or not, at low-profile cities and even high profile cities that she just happens not to care for (and the musicians that reside in such cities), and that is fucked up.

    @Dork & @Oldhat - just to clarify myself, I really do hope that, despite my arguments, it was evident that I did take your guys' arguments to heart and even agree with some of them, and that my arguments about her actions being okay were extremely qualified (eg I was arguing under the assumption that she legitimately ran out of budget). I just hope I'm not coming off like the one prick who doesn't think artistic effort isn't worth monetary value and it's okay to take advantage of artists >__<
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      CommentAuthordorkmuffin
    • CommentTimeSep 17th 2012
     (10831.9)
    @Oddcult, I've been listening to Big Black for the past three days. Aaahahaha.

    ALSO! Shellac:

    Shellac

    MOAR BIG BLACK

    @Argos, you'd have to try REALLY really hard to come off as a prick about anything. Never you fear. You communicated your intended argument wonderfully. I just argue. A lot. It's a problem I have.
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      CommentAuthorFinagle
    • CommentTimeSep 17th 2012
     (10831.10)
    Can I just say that I find bringing AP's marital status, the money of her husband, where it came from, and the entire idea that she should somehow feel obliged to call upon that supposed wealth rather uncomfortable, somewhat prurient, and rather antifeminist? Marriage doesn't make two people with completely independent professional career arcs somehow automatically obliged to one another, and the fact of the matter is that AP seems to have gone *rather* out of her way to fund this thing through her own means - however one may choose to interpret what she does with that money.
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      CommentAuthorrickiep00h
    • CommentTimeSep 17th 2012
     (10831.11)
    @Finagle - Don't, by any means, go into the original thread that contained Albini's post. I'd say about 4/5 of the posts are "I have no idea what's going on in this situation, but here's my two cents, plus it's a woman so BITCH CUNT WHORE NAKED PICS."
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      CommentAuthordorkmuffin
    • CommentTimeSep 17th 2012
     (10831.12)
    @rickiep00h, @finagle, yeah, the internet is full of dickweeds.

    ... But really.
    • CommentAuthorOddcult
    • CommentTimeSep 17th 2012
     (10831.13)
    Steve Albini is why Nirvana.
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      CommentAuthordorkmuffin
    • CommentTimeSep 17th 2012
     (10831.14)
    Steve Albini is why Pixies.

    And many more.

    (I know this doesn't have much to do with the actual purpose of the thread, but this list will boggle your mind. The man is behind a number of influential albums across a bunch of genres, including artists like Nirvana, the Pixies, the Jesus Lizard, PJ Harvey, Neurosis, Manic Street Preachers, Screaming Females, Slint, Hum, Screeching Weasel, Superchunk, etc etc etc)
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      CommentAuthorrickiep00h
    • CommentTimeSep 17th 2012
     (10831.15)
    I have no problem with the output of Steve Albini, I just think he's an insufferable jerk for no discernible reason beyond "indie cred", which, ironically, is a lot of the Palmer schtick that people hate.

    /shrug potayto/potahto
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      CommentAuthordorkmuffin
    • CommentTimeSep 17th 2012
     (10831.16)
    @rickiep00h, oh, he's notoriously abrasive, but I've never really gotten the impression of it being for the reason of building "indie cred." He's already got "indie cred" (must use quotations because even that makes me throw up a little) in spades as a result of his career and doesn't need to prove it to anyone.

    I think he's just a guy that doesn't have much patience for what he deems to be idiocy. Granted, in many instances he may be unjustly abrasive, but I can kind of admire him for not compromising. That said, I'm also kind of a curmudgeon (but a much more reserved one) so I can kind of sympathize.

    His role in the industry, from the very beginning, has also been one of pundit. He has always spoken out against issues in music that he views as unethical, so it makes sense that he would have made a point of commenting on this issues. From his view (and from mine), the way Ms. Palmer has conducted herself is deeply unethical. Perhaps not intentionally, but as someone who has been making music for as long as she has, she should know better.
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      CommentAuthormister hex
    • CommentTimeSep 17th 2012
     (10831.17)
    Can I just say that I find bringing AP's marital status, the money of her husband, where it came from, and the entire idea that she should somehow feel obliged to call upon that supposed wealth rather uncomfortable, somewhat prurient, and rather antifeminist? Marriage doesn't make two people with completely independent professional career arcs somehow automatically obliged to one another, and the fact of the matter is that AP seems to have gone *rather* out of her way to fund this thing through her own means - however one may choose to interpret what she does with that money.


    @ finagle - I'll respond, since I believe I was the one who brought it up (and keep mentioning it and all).

    It *is* uncomfortable, to me at least, in that she is already a well-established artist with a fan base that supports her work. There are a lot (and I mean A LOT) of people who don't have the opportunities that she has, people on this very message board who are insanely talented and yet scraping by. But she feels the need to crowd-fund her tour by asking those with nothing to play for "free". Smacks of privilege and misplaced indie cred. "OH NOES, I'VE TORN MY PRE-TORN $800 DESIGNER JEANS!" kinda thing.

    Secondly, I have no idea what their marriage is all about, the state of their finances, what have you. They probably don't have solid platinum toilets but I imagine they're very comfortable. Yes, she has gone out of her way to fund it herself (and as oldhat mentioned, received more funding than she was originally asking for), no, she didn't go running to the Sugar Daddy of Dreamland to fund her tour. Prurient? Perhaps. Germane? I think, certainly. Again, with the advantage that most of us will never have - access to funds within an existing relationship.

    Finally, I'll reiterate what I said before. Let's say the position was reversed and Neil needed money to make a comic and she was richer than Crassus.More people buy music than comics, more people are conversant with music than comics. If he asked her for money for printing costs ("Don't worry, I'll get some fanboy to draw it for free - a professional fanboy, of course, who could be doing paying work while he works on my script. Warren Ellis keeps several locked up in his basement.") , would this be as inflammatory? More? Less? At all?

    It comes down to privilege, for me, at least. Those that got, got a lot. Those that not? Here's a free beer and a tee-shirt, thanks for comin' out.

    And may I say, THIS discussion is the kind of thing that Whitechapel's always excelled at. Many different points of view, cogently reasoned arguments (except for mine, apparently), no insults, lots of "Hmm. I read what you posted." If only all the Internet was like this. Then maybe we could have nice things.
    • CommentAuthorArgos
    • CommentTimeSep 17th 2012
     (10831.18)
    If only all the Internet was like this. Then maybe we could have nice things.


    *sniff* I love you guys.
  1.  (10831.19)
    @rickiep00h - I think Albini lost his "indy cred" when he produced Bush. :D

    To me, Steve Albini is the music equivalent of Bill Mahr. Even when you agree with what he saying, you still think he's being a dick about it.
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      CommentAuthorrickiep00h
    • CommentTimeSep 17th 2012
     (10831.20)
    Again, with the advantage that most of us will never have - access to funds within an existing relationship.
    Again, she may not have access to that money. We don't know the specifics of their arrangement, and it is out of line to assume either way. If, by some matter of course, it came out that Mr. Gaiman had indeed financed even a small part of the tour itself, then I'd definitely change my mind on the question of her character. It likely would not change my fandom, as I think people can be complete asses and still turn out decent work.

    As for
    Finally, I'll reiterate what I said before. Let's say the position was reversed and Neil needed money to make a comic and she was richer than Crassus.More people buy music than comics, more people are conversant with music than comics. If he asked her for money for printing costs ("Don't worry, I'll get some fanboy to draw it for free - a professional fanboy, of course, who could be doing paying work while he works on my script. Warren Ellis keeps several locked up in his basement.") , would this be as inflammatory? More? Less? At all?
    I'd have to say it's more inflammatory because there's a world of difference between full-time work for a month or more and an afternoon's worth of learning backing parts for three-ish songs. Were Palmer to take half a dozen pro musicians out on a full-scale tour and keep them tied up for a month-plus, I'd scream bloody fucking murder about it. Instead, she's asking some people--amateur/hobbyist/pro/whatever--in each (well... most. erg) city to give up half a day for some merch and some beer and some hang-out time. Yes, she COULD take out a full section, she COULD sequence it all, she COULD hire a second keyboardist for the parts, but she's doing it this way. That's her prerogative in my opinion, and if people are willing to play it and everyone involved has fun, great.

    What confuses me so much about the whole thing is that there's a ton of people that have already said "sure, I've worked for free" and then qualified it with their own reason why. Would it seriously be that big of a deal had she not said "We can't afford it" and/or "professional-ish"? I honestly thought it was a poor choice of words that didn't communicate well, but hardly something to turn the whole thing into a giant labor dispute.

    Of course, that was before the budget magically appeared in the bigger cities, before contrition became spin. The whole thing is a giant communication breakdown, and I think she's probably not handling that part as adeptly as she could. But considering she's also responsible for Evelyn Evelyn, it's probably not going to bother her much, nor the fanbase that doesn't actually know this is A Thing. It's all going to end up being a wash.

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