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London Zoo: Amanda Palmer (The "Fuck You, Pay Me" Debate)

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    • CommentAuthorallana
    • CommentTimeSep 19th 2012
     (10831.1)
    Is this conjecture or fact?

    ... claim she needed to repay the $250K off the top of the 1.1 Million when her original target was just $100K.


    I'm on a phone, so research blows. But this has serious legal implications. You can't fundraise and then introduce extra costs after the fact. That's gotta be prosecutable.
  2.  (10831.2)
    @ allana - I never thought about it before, but can a Kickstarter project be sued by backers because of a misuse/mismanagement of funds?
    •  
      CommentAuthorTF
    • CommentTimeSep 19th 2012 edited
     (10831.3)
    @ allana

    Stated goal on Kickstarter : $100,000

    From Kickstarter : Update 5

    first i’ll pay off the lovely debt - stacks of bills and loans and the like - associated with readying all of the stuff that had to happen BEFORE i brought this project to kickstarter.
    for the past 8 months or so, i wasn’t touring - and therefore wasn’t making much income - but every step of the way, there were expenses. so, during that time, i borrowed from various friends and family who i’d built up trust with over the years.

    i had to pay my staff and crew to get this album ready as well as keep the ship afloat and headed in the right direction. i also needed to come up with the cost of the recording itself (which was pretty whopping), and any other expenses the band racked up in the meanwhile.
    to put a number on all of that behind-the-scenes stuff which just got us to DAY ONE of kickstarter: $250,000.
    terrifying? damn straight.
    but to do this the way i knew it needed to be done, that was just a bet i had to take against myself.
    i’m a truly lucky person to have been able to float myself without having to simultaneously tour and break my back.
    i’ve also worked my ass off for years to build the kind of trust that built me that line of credit with people.

    SO.
    let’s subtract that from the $1,000,000 we theoretically make on kickstarter.
    that takes us down to about $750k.
    •  
      CommentAuthorRichard Pace
    • CommentTimeSep 19th 2012 edited
     (10831.4)
    I09 runs a story and makes note of several of the issues I've had, which is nice and affirming and some I thought were suspicious but I wasn't going to start speculating on CD costs.
  5.  (10831.5)
    either side of the argument you are on, you gotta admit that PShop pic is kind of funny.

    knowing something about art book printing cost and having friends who have had vinyl pressed, those are government contractor prices. this doesn't look like it's going to just go away for her. I wonder how long it will take for her to start a Kickstarter campaign to raise money for her to hire a PR firm?
    •  
      CommentAuthorglukkake
    • CommentTimeSep 19th 2012
     (10831.6)
    And Amanda Palmer just released a blog entry saying she is (and has already begun) paying the backup musicians: http://www.amandapalmer.net/blog/20120919/

    Hooray for her!
    •  
      CommentAuthorrickiep00h
    • CommentTimeSep 19th 2012 edited
     (10831.7)
    That io9 article is very good, and I think puts a good light on the accountability angle.

    For the record, I'm also backing Templesmith (et al) in his TOME project, which has consistently and constantly been adding more and more shit to the book as the funding has gone up. While this isn't exactly debts in arrears a la Palmer, terms and costs change all the time on Kickstarter, so it's not endemic to this one example. A good most of us, when faced with a hell of a lot of money we didn't expect, would probably pay off debts and make the project bigger. Her accounting may be/probably is suspect, but at the same time I don't begrudge her spending money that was willingly given if she's delivering on her promised rewards.

    And of course, now that she's paying musicians, everyone will bitch because that wasn't announced at first and now all these spots that could have been taken by Real Professional Musicians are now being held by Rank Amateurs, so I doubt that particular shitstorm is going away (nor will the entrenched sides change their opinions).
    •  
      CommentAuthorTF
    • CommentTimeSep 19th 2012
     (10831.8)
    Excellent.
    •  
      CommentAuthoroldhat
    • CommentTimeSep 19th 2012
     (10831.9)
    Glad that she's paying them now. She definitely grumbled about it in that blog post, but she's doing it and I'm happy.
    •  
      CommentAuthoroddbill
    • CommentTimeSep 19th 2012
     (10831.10)
    Re: the 100k thing, I should have been more specific that it applies to living in a location like Manhattan, Los Angeles or San Francisco (i'm guessing the founder of Burning Man is in the Bay Area) - 100k is a decent but not remarkable middle class salary. You would need to be frugal on that salary to raise a family in middle class living conditions.

    And if you consider Burning Man as a startup, founded 10 years ago, and still a growing success that employs several full time and seasonal employees, 100k per year is an astonishingly small amount comparatively for a founder to be getting at this stage.
  11.  (10831.11)
    @oddbill - exactly. I live in Los Angeles now and everything cost way more than where I grew up in New Jersey. money doesn't go very far here and it's not like I live (or expect) an extravagant life style.
    • CommentAuthorArgos
    • CommentTimeSep 19th 2012 edited
     (10831.12)
    Ah, you know what, I totally forgot that he lives in S.F., and I know people who had to move out of the proper city because they can't afford rent anymore. So, fair enough.

    Reading the new Amanda blog post, I'm glad to hear people are getting paid, that is always nice. I'm not surprised she is grumbling in the post though, I mean, wouldn't you if you were her? Sure, in this thread we all discussed in a friendly manner, but some of the comments out there were truly hateful. In the post oldhat originally tweeted about, there were comments like "Great, now i have more reason to hate that talentless bitch. That's how the rich get richer." Really vile comments directed at her. So yeah, I'd be grumbled, too - you need a tough skin to deal with that shit.

    edited to clarify: by "out there" I meant the non-whitechapel internet space.
    •  
      CommentAuthorglukkake
    • CommentTimeSep 19th 2012
     (10831.13)
    I would hope no one begrudges the people receiving the money. As she stated in her call, it's for professional-ish - people who can show up to rehearsal, learn a piece of music in an afternoon, then rock out to an audience. They deserve that money.

    The vitriol that woman gets for both success and missteps is just awful. Wish more people could understand that you can disagree with someone's actions while not hating them on a personal level (y'know, when felonies aren't concerned).
    •  
      CommentAuthorFinagle
    • CommentTimeSep 19th 2012
     (10831.14)
    @glukkake - and not really replying directly to you, but riffing off what you said -

    Yes, indeed. As I said before, I really severely dislike the JANE YOU IGNORANT SLUT tone this thread has taken. There is a stink level of OH FUCK THAT GREEDY WOMAN in all the objections to AP's work in this thread that has left a severely bad taste in my mouth.

    Steve Albini RAPEMAN commenting on the whole thing hasn't really hurt the irony level. There's a level that I am just not comfortable with here involving some severe class envy and bringing her husband into it that I will just never be comfortable with. A level involving shaming AP for what she does. Something that reeks to me of "cutting down the tall poppies." Congratulations all.
    •  
      CommentAuthormister hex
    • CommentTimeSep 19th 2012
     (10831.15)
    @ Finagle - I'm sorry you feel that way. I'm also somewhat confused, as nowhere in this thread have I seen anything like anything you've mentioned. (Yes, I'm the guy that brought up Neil Gaiman. I have attempted to explain why I did this and why I feel it's germane to the conversation.)

    It seems everyone is happy with the result of this thread and "nobody died, it all worked out", as a friend of mine used to say. Musicians are getting paid, people shared their opinions in the respectful Whitechapel way and now we all move on to the Next Thing. No one, at any time, pulled a Dan Ackroyd (I'm old enough to remember watching that sketch live) and as to class envy ... well, maybe a little bit.

    If you'd like, we can go out into the virtual alley and have a virtual fist-fight and then be friends again? First round's on me. I don't know what else to say.
    •  
      CommentAuthorrickiep00h
    • CommentTimeSep 19th 2012 edited
     (10831.16)
    While I think there may have been an unfair amount of internet hate piled on in this thread, it's nowhere NEAR as bad as other places I've seen it discussed. The weird Scientology arranged-marriage thing sort of came out of left field, and there was some gleeful shark-jump claims, but it remained mostly civil even without the fear of arse eels hanging above our... arses...

    While the whole situation didn't come out wine and roses, and there are still a lot of big questions on how to plan for a business expenditure like a tour, I'm content with nobody died, it all worked out.

    I am now re-excited for the Chicago show, knowing that all parties with immediate interest in putting it on will be accounted for. (Theoretically.)

    edit: PS I miss you guys sometimes, but this school thing is a pain in the ass. Glad we could have a chat again.
    • CommentAuthorallana
    • CommentTimeSep 19th 2012
     (10831.17)
    I'm gonna go ahead and be the bitch here: How much is she paying them?!?!?!?!

    Ahem, and enough of the lolz.

    [Maybe we should carry the Kickstarter-and-accountability discussion over to the Kickstarter thread? I'm still interested in that aspect, for sure. I guess you just sign a disclaimer when you pledge to something that says "If it doesn't get funded, it doesn't go through," and that's all there is? I mega-support a fundraising maximum -- say, your goal plus twenty percent? If you want to edit your project once it gets rolling, just start a second one and do all your even-better-isms over there.]
    • CommentAuthorallana
    • CommentTimeSep 19th 2012
     (10831.18)
    Forgot obligatory lovefest mention: It's nice to have some good feisty action on these here boards again.
    •  
      CommentAuthoroldhat
    • CommentTimeSep 19th 2012
     (10831.19)


    I still think that a discussion should be made on crowdsourcing-as-employment, kickstarter accountability and the debate on whether or not doing what you love = work, as those are really good conversations to have and a lot of people have different views.

    And you know, there was some hate going around (and the Neil Gaiman's financial role/Scientology discussion was...well), but there was none of the truly horrible stuff that other places went to and I think on the whole people tried to be respectful while arguing their point. I know in my points I tried to ignore that I wasn't a fan of Amanda Palmer's work or her as a person and tried to look at it for what it was.

    Hooray Whitechapel. Good to have another lively discussion on here. Been a while.
    •  
      CommentAuthordorkmuffin
    • CommentTimeSep 19th 2012
     (10831.20)
    Good to have another lively discussion on here. Been a while.


    THIS.

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