Whitechapel - Rape In the Media 2013-05-23T10:43:00-07:00 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/ Lussumo Vanilla & Feed Publisher Rape In the Media http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10841&Focus=340721#Comment_340721 2012-09-20T18:49:36-07:00 2012-09-21T03:18:44-07:00 mister hex http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4411 Okay so this - http://www.comicsalliance.com/2012/09/20/so-theres-an-attempted-gang-rape-in-the-first-issue-of-amethys/ ... made me think. Especially after reading the comments section, which is ...
... made me think. Especially after reading the comments section, which is fairly strictly monitored.

I am not comfortable with depictions of rape in popular media. (I doubt anyone is. Anyone who actually IS comfortable or indeed interested in such things, come and sit by me and my nice piece of piano wire.) But one must admit, to humanity's shame, that such a thing exists.

My question (or starting point of a discussion) is where one draws the line.

I like CROSSED - Ennis, Lapham, Spurrier. These are Zombie Tales with an extra urrgency. They won't just bite you on the arm and then you go bad. (And once you go bad, you never go back.) Never have I felt any titilation in any CROSSED comic, EVER. Take that to the bank. EVER. But I LIKE CROSSED. What does that say?

DC Comics (my ancient foe) has made much use of the Rape Trope in recent years. Marvel, not AS much. (Although they ret-conned Marcus right the hell out of Captain (nee Ms.) Marvel.

I remember Warren talking about LAW N ORDER:SVU and how that show cynically exploited the concept of sexual violence to an unconscionable degree.

(There's an attempted rape in the first issue of AMETHYST, circa 1982, apparently. I actually bought that issue and haven't seen it in twenty years or more, due to my eclectic filing system.)

MY QUESTION, TO YOU FINE PEOPLE - How do you feel about depictions of rape in the media?]]> Rape In the Media http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10841&Focus=340724#Comment_340724 2012-09-20T19:24:10-07:00 2013-05-23T10:43:00-07:00 Argos http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=7792 It's a tricky subject to handle. I'm fine with it in the media because, as you said, to humanity's shame it does exist, and we should pretend like it doesn't. I wouldn't say I'm comfortable with ... so often in real life that I don't think it should be this untouchable act, and I don't think that the use of it automatically makes it "just a trope." As long as it's handled with...respect, I suppose is the word, then I'm okay with it as a tool for the narrative. My most recent experience with rape in the media was in watching and reading The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo series. It can be argued that Larsson fell back on a trope with it (though he fell back on a lof of tropes in his attempt to show his disgust towards misogyny and how Lisbeth was a victim in all aspects of her life), but I think he and the movies handled the event well and showed that no, rape is not some trivial event and is a very, very serious crime. The use of rape for the story and the movies was supposed to make the viewer extremely uncomfortable, that was the point.

And in case it matters to anyone - I say this from the perspective of a female who has never been forcibly raped but has had her arm twisted into doing things that made me feel gross after I did them, and didn't want to do to begin with (which I've heard some people argue was rape even though there was no intercourse and was not physically forced). So I don't quite have the scar of a traumatizing event that others might have, which would lead them to not be able to consume media with rape portrayals because it might be a trigger. That said, any piece of media with rape should have a trigger warning for victims.]]> Rape In the Media http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10841&Focus=340728#Comment_340728 2012-09-20T20:35:02-07:00 2013-05-23T10:43:00-07:00 Fishelle http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=8854 I'm not seeing the "this" you're referring to at the beginning of this thread, Hex. That said, the fact that there is a "rape trope" is abhorrent. If it's really necessary in ...
That said, the fact that there is a "rape trope" is abhorrent.
If it's really necessary in your darker sort of story, whatever. But jeez. Everyone needs to find more creative and interesting reasons for their lady characters to have issues. There's so many you could use.]]> Rape In the Media http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10841&Focus=340748#Comment_340748 2012-09-21T03:38:03-07:00 2013-05-23T10:43:00-07:00 mister hex http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4411 @fishelle - sorry, link fail. (STUPID FINGERS!) @ argos - these are my thoughts, more or less. It's lazy and offensive if it's done wrong and it's traumatic if it's done right. Somehow, I don't ...
@ argos - these are my thoughts, more or less. It's lazy and offensive if it's done wrong and it's traumatic if it's done right. Somehow, I don't think it should be in a comic aimed at pre-teen girls (waytago, DC. THAT'll bring in more female readers. Sheesh.)

There's a film by Gaspar Noe called IRREVERSIBLE that, while being quite a good film, is also quite unwatchable. While I admire the filmmaker and his work, I can't watch this movie. Ever. I've tried. And failed.

I know several survivors of sexual violence and I've seen how difficult it can be for them to just "be normal". To have the worst experience of their lives thrown back in their faces as a cheap plot point is odious.

Is this a case of male cluelessness? Male writers more often than not are the ones using this trope (and yes, the fact that there is a "rape trope" is abhorrent) but sexual violence happens to everyone, too. (Anything set in a prison is going to have lots of it. I've actually read that "fear of prison rape" is more profound than "fear of prison violence" for most inmates coming into the correctional system.)

James Bond and Batman are two male characters that I could concievably imagine have had experiences with sexual violence. (They're always getting captured sneaking through the bad guy's hideout. Of course, you'd have to be pretty tough to rape Batman or James Bond but given thier histories and their opponents, it's not out of the question.) When I said this to a writer friend of mine (a big fan of both of these characters), he freaked out and called me some interesting names. He acted as though they were sullied somehow, ruined. In a round-about way, that's why I started this thread.

IS THERE a way to correctly portray sexual violence?]]> Rape In the Media http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10841&Focus=340755#Comment_340755 2012-09-21T05:56:24-07:00 2013-05-23T10:43:00-07:00 Stoto http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=757 Firstly, I want to apologise to anyone if I come across as insensitive. I don't mean or want to. There is a male-on-male sibling rape scene in the movie 'Snowtown' that I *think* I'm grateful for. ...
There is a male-on-male sibling rape scene in the movie 'Snowtown' that I *think* I'm grateful for. It portrayed sexual violence in a way I just didn't consider.]]> Rape In the Media http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10841&Focus=340756#Comment_340756 2012-09-21T06:13:29-07:00 2013-05-23T10:43:00-07:00 mister hex http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4411 @ stoto - trolls are largely unknown in Whitechapel. (This is a fraught discussion. But one that deserves to exist, I think.) Have not seen 'Snowtown'. Recently re-watched "Mysterious ...
Have not seen 'Snowtown'. Recently re-watched "Mysterious Skin" which features a hideous male rape scene.

As an aside ... there are currently several sex-predators lurking in my city, in the very neighborhood in which I used to live and at the university I attended. This is another reason this has come to the top of my mind. I have female friends (and male ones, too) who may be at risk, simply because they dare to walk home alone. This disgusts me deeply. (In addition, I'm not what one would call a strapping individual and could be easily overpowered by a determined assailant. He'd have to be pretty determined, as I fight definitely dirty, when forced to fight. But I live my life realizing that "it" could happen and almost has, in the past.)]]> Rape In the Media http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10841&Focus=340757#Comment_340757 2012-09-21T06:19:24-07:00 2013-05-23T10:43:00-07:00 allana http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4019 Rape is a more compelling issue to me in news or editorials. I care less about its use as a fictional plot-driver. In the specific instance you linked, though, I'm super unimpressed that the writer's ... If there's some specific way in which these rape scenes are somehow demeaning or reductive (like, say, showing the victimized character as being perfectly okay with it all afterwards simply because a superhero showed up) then I'd be pissed. But treating rape as a crime as awful and ubiquitous as murder is PERFECTLY FAIR. Because it IS as awful and as ubiquitous. And choosing to pretend it doesn't exist just because it might trigger some former victims is just fucking STUPID. That's not how we effect change, and that's not how we start dialogue.
I want it to be used. But I want a base effort to be put toward using it intelligently (like I want everything I read to be intelligent, so maybe that's redundant). And, hell, if that's as little as printing the number of a helpline in the back, or a tiny PSA, whatever. But it's just an issue of good research, if it's going to be in a story. Talk to a rape survivor, get their story, have your character act REAL. (And for fuck's sake don't only portray victims as women who dress slutty and get drunk in public, 'cause that's also shitty research.)]]> Rape In the Media http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10841&Focus=340759#Comment_340759 2012-09-21T06:43:39-07:00 2013-05-23T10:43:00-07:00 Stoto http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=757 @hex I have a vague memory of watching Mysterious Skin. Also, Irreversible. Both invoked different and less powerful emotions than Snowtown. Perhaps there is not a single correct way to portray ... You said you think this discussion deserves to exist. By the same measure, I think portrayals of sexual violence deserve to exist in popular media. It brings it to our attention. I can, however, understand that some people might disagree.
I just don't know what accounts for a) an exploitable trope that hurts people and b) a documentation of reality that should be acknowledged.]]> Rape In the Media http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10841&Focus=340760#Comment_340760 2012-09-21T06:55:15-07:00 2013-05-23T10:43:00-07:00 dorkmuffin http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6719 Obviously I have a really tough time watching/reading rape accounts. I actually couldn't make it through the Swedish movie verson of Girl With a Dragon Tattoo. Allana pretty much hit the nail on ...
Allana pretty much hit the nail on the head here:

But treating rape as a crime as awful and ubiquitous as murder is PERFECTLY FAIR. Because it IS as awful and as ubiquitous. And choosing to pretend it doesn't exist just because it might trigger some former victims is just fucking STUPID. That's not how we effect change, and that's not how we start dialogue.


Most women also have to live with the very real possibility that they are, in their lifetime, going to be sexually assaulted or raped. It shouldn't be that way but it is, and not addressing it as a very real part of life is absurd. A woman is vastly more likely to be raped than she is to be murdered (by a pretty huge margin). And as a result, a person is probably going to know at least a handful of rape victims in his/her life. Talking about it within the scope of entertainment media seems, well, appropriate. But I think you all are right, it's HOW we talk about it that is really the driver of whether it's okay.]]> Rape In the Media http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10841&Focus=340761#Comment_340761 2012-09-21T06:58:19-07:00 2013-05-23T10:43:00-07:00 badbear http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1879 Generally speaking... yeah I totally agree with you guys that it depends on execution. It often annoys me that if you have a strong female character in something, and the plot has her at a low point, ...
To me it often comes off as either exploitative or emotionally unconvincing, I think it's rare to find an example of rape being depicted with any kind of feeling of truth to it.]]> Rape In the Media http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10841&Focus=340762#Comment_340762 2012-09-21T07:13:55-07:00 2013-05-23T10:43:00-07:00 Steve Toase http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=10253 One of the most effective portrayals, because it was brutal and unpleasant and challenging to watch was in This Is England '86. I always find newspaper reactions like this ... http://www.metro.co.uk/tv/841703-this-is-england-86-viewers-left-stunned-by-sick-rape-scene What did you expect? This needs to be tackled and talked about to remove the gloss about it and address the problems victims face coming forward.]]> Rape In the Media http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10841&Focus=340763#Comment_340763 2012-09-21T07:18:48-07:00 2013-05-23T10:43:00-07:00 mister hex http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4411 One thing I ALSO hate - "George Lucas raped by childhood" and comments such-like. I get it, nobody likes Jar Jar Binks and Han Shot First but DUDE. (Because it's ALWAYS dudes who write ...
The "funny" thing is, rape is now probably as rare as it has ever been. Entire continents have been based on systematic rape (Australia and North AND South America, I'm looking at you And that doesn't let Asia, Europe or Africa off the hook, neither.)"Fun" fact - the term "joker" (as in "Who's this joker?") is the product of a relationship between hoboes during the depression of the 1890s. (Very much akin to prison "relationships" between "man" and "punk".)

(I've done a lot of research into this so I'm putting on my Professor Hat now. Feel free to point out any inaccuracies, because I'd dearly love to be wrong about this.)

Okay, there you go ... "punk". This shall be one of the first Rubicons we're going to have to cross in the context of this discussion.

In a prison context, a third sex has been created - the punk. Above a snitch on the jailhouse hierarchy but precariously so, the punk is a smaller, weaker man who, upon his arrival in the correctional system, is preyed upon by stronger, more savvy inmates. Once he is "turned out" and is "wearing a punk jacket" or "lying that way", THAT'S IT. Everybody knows and everybody tries to take advantage. His choices now are limited to - do I pick one individual to be "owned" by or do I become "group property?" The punk truly is a third sex - a man who is universally treated like a woman, in an all-male environment. Often, they are assigned female names, they can be sold as chattel, they are forced to wear "feminine" clothing and their lot in life is scullery-maid/sex-slave. Upon his eventual release from the correctional system, one cannot possibly understand the feelings of such an individual. There's a Jim Goad interview with the man who founded the Stop Prisoner Rape organization that is HORRIFYING. I urge you to seek it out but I can't link to it. YOU GO FIND IT. ("Donny The Punk".Your mileage may vary when it comes to Jim Goad.)Also, the memoir FISH by T Parsell is very illuminating, in terms of resources. (And? As I've mentioned? This is hardly a new phenomena. Ancient Greece was SWIMMING in it.Rome, too. Oh, yes.)


On the other hand, I like punk rock. A bit anyway. Which sounds like someone being sodomized with an electric guitar.

Sorry. Rambling.]]> Rape In the Media http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10841&Focus=340764#Comment_340764 2012-09-21T07:19:37-07:00 2013-05-23T10:43:00-07:00 vandalhandle http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4586 It has unfortunitly become just another plot point, it's a serious thing, personnally i've no experience with it i do have experience of a close family member being murdered, my favourite comic ... In movies I thought those scenes in 'Girl with the Dragon Tattoo' (Swedish) where a tough/uncomfortable watch, 'Mysterious Skin' also, The only movie I have nearly turned off because it was getting too much to watch was 'Martyrs'. Rape is a crime on a level with murder, and being raised by three women due to the latter, I've grown up with a deep respect for women and Any visual depiction of violence or sexual violence is never going to sit comfortably with me.]]> Rape In the Media http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10841&Focus=340768#Comment_340768 2012-09-21T08:37:50-07:00 2012-09-21T08:38:21-07:00 TF http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1307 Sexual violence an aspect of society and should be reflected in drama but if it feels like a cheap trick to make the story “gritty” or to quickly up the stakes and make it so the villain deserves ...
The Boys has some rape which, like in Crossed, is character driven and thematic / statement driven. If the creators aren't using the event to say something about something, then it's exploitive.

Alan Moore is interesting to me. On the whole I liked Neonomicon and his justification of the rape in that book was "I was writing horror so I wanted to have something horrific and it was the most horrific thing" - and it was horrific and framed accordingly, but he comes to mind with the question "where does one draw the line."
In the build up to the final LOEG: Century I re-read a lot of Moore and realised there is A LOT of rape in his work - to the point I was reading 1969 going - oh there hasn't been a rape yet – but turned the page and Mina’s on her back getting molested - and I was thinking - if you can't stop writing rape you've crossed the line, ' cause - stop writing rape all the time. As individual story incidents I think they’re well written and well handled but through sheer volume I, personally, think it crosses the line, maybe because I’d be embarrassed to have written a string of rape scenes.

@Steve Toase
I found This is England’s rape scene horrible to watch because it felt so REAL – the set up and execution were dramatically perfect. I don’t know if the reactions in the linked article above were just in response to the sexual violence but to the way it was staged (so it felt it was happening in your front room) and the expectations a TV audience - I’m thinking of the reactions Six Feet Under got for its violent episode “That’s My Dog” were they changed to structure of the show to keep the audience feel trapped. Some big time critic argued this betrayed the trust the creators had with the audience.


Less graphically (and aimed at a different demographic) Veronica Mars deftly used what could have felt like a clichéd rape back story to define Veronica by showing it’s implications on her wider world. I think it worked really well.


There’s an episode of Cracker about a serial rapist entitled “Men Should Weep” that covers a lot thematically about sex, gender roles, death and power which I was never really sure worked as well as the producers might have hoped but – it’s a heavy episode and not one I'd enjoy watching on repeat to pick up the nuances.]]> Rape In the Media http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10841&Focus=340769#Comment_340769 2012-09-21T08:51:53-07:00 2013-05-23T10:43:00-07:00 joe.distort http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1173 On the other hand, I like punk rock. A bit anyway. Which sounds like someone being sodomized with an electric guitar. my ears are burning...this seems like a tenuous link to make to the thread at ... On the other hand, I like punk rock. A bit anyway. Which sounds like someone being sodomized with an electric guitar.

my ears are burning...this seems like a tenuous link to make to the thread at hand, but hey what do i know? im just gonna say that any link between prison rape and punk rock as a concept doesnt make much sense in 2012.

ANYWAY in regards to the actual issue at hand, rape in media is BORING. regardless of the context, it just strikes me as shitty writing. the comic in question seems like an extra ridiculous place to see it considering it was Blatant Pandering to the vocal fanbase that said they wanted more female characters and creators. the existence of this book by itself just struck me as foolish to begin with- Amethyst? thats the best they could do. and the female writer they found was 'uh, i dont know, find someone. the old writer of Jem? sure, works for me!'

i mean fuck really? Jem? this is where the bar is set at DC these days?

as a side note for my own ramble time, a trend i have noticed online is this term 'Trigger Warning'- wow, that just strikes me as inane. i dont expect there to be fucking warnings when i read stories of child abuse at the hands of their drug addict parents, and hey, look at me, im able to read things on the internet. im not saying that survivors need to just 'toughen up' or some shit, but if you have been assaulted and you are still in such a vulnerable place mentally that you cant handle just the mention of rape (or, in the case of the last one i saw, Tura Satana going after her rapists and physically beating them senseless) , maaaaayyybe random blogs arent the place for you to be right now, until you are a bit more stable and healed]]> Rape In the Media http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10841&Focus=340770#Comment_340770 2012-09-21T09:07:11-07:00 2013-05-23T10:43:00-07:00 Argos http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=7792 Trigger Warning isn't just for random blogs, though. I've seen webcomics put up comics about cutting, and given that webcomics tend to have more or less stable fan bases, they need to realize that ... Rape In the Media http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10841&Focus=340772#Comment_340772 2012-09-21T10:49:14-07:00 2013-05-23T10:43:00-07:00 mister hex http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4411 @ joe - it was a joke. 'Punk' also means 'small or mis-shapen'. Rape In the Media http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10841&Focus=340773#Comment_340773 2012-09-21T10:54:00-07:00 2013-05-23T10:43:00-07:00 joe.distort http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1173 i didnt think you were real serious, but i usually like to stop those things before they become some bizarre 9 page derail hahaha Rape In the Media http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10841&Focus=340776#Comment_340776 2012-09-21T11:05:38-07:00 2013-05-23T10:43:00-07:00 D.J. http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=3196 I find it interesting that people get up in arms about there being a 'rape trope' and an abundance of rape showing up in the media, but you can pretty much have any character in any story get ... Rape In the Media http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10841&Focus=340777#Comment_340777 2012-09-21T11:06:35-07:00 2012-09-21T11:12:20-07:00 oldhat http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=75 @hex and joe, AND WHAT ABOUT DEM SCIENTOLOGISTS? I think rape in a story is fine as long as it's advancing the plot of something somehow. One of my issues with a lot of the works of Garth Ennis, ...
I think rape in a story is fine as long as it's advancing the plot of something somehow. One of my issues with a lot of the works of Garth Ennis, as the Toronto whitechapel folk know, is that he likes the just throw rape and violence in like glitter for the hell of it. It's why I stopped reading The Boys (Herogasm, while funny for the first three pages, made it so that I couldn't pick up another issue) it's why I haven't read much Crossed (I get it, the plot is driven but having to see it is a personal taste thing for me) and so on. However, the rape in say, Neonomicon, advanced the plot. I got it.

I am curious what people here think of jokes where rape is involved. Personally I think there's a big difference to rape being an element to the joke and rape being the joke. An example, I guess, would be the infamous Penny Arcade (my they do get mentioned a lot here) Dickwolves strip, which caused a huge stir. Personally I thought it was a good joke on how players feel about going on quests (a joke Penny Arcade plays on a lot.

As something to look at, an article from Jezebel came out during the whole Daniel Tosh thing that I found to be an interesting read. How to make a rape joke. I found it made good cases for both sides.

Say you knew for a fact that in any given audience there was at least one person who had been mangled in an industrial threshing accident—JUST STICK WITH ME HERE—and that we lived in a culture where industrial threshing victims were routinely blamed/shamed for their own death and/or disfigurement because they wore the "wrong" overalls, and people were afraid to report threshing accidents because the police department just employs a bunch of threshing machines in badges and little hats anyway (and everyone knows threshing machines protect their own), and historically humans were sold into marriages with threshing machines where they could just be tossed in there and chopped up willy-nilly. Oh, and also 90% of the comics in the show (yourself included) are threshing machines too, but since you're this young, liberal brand of threshing machine with newfangled safety guards and you fervently don't believe in mangling humans, you think it's fair game for you to make "jokes" about idiot humans getting their faces and limbs shredded by those more sinister other threshing machines. But do you really think that isn't going to traumatize the fuck out of some humans? Even if you're "joking"? If you care so much about humans not getting threshed to death, then wouldn't you rather just stick with, I don't know, your new material on barley chaff (hey, learn to drive, barley chaff!)?]]> Rape In the Media http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10841&Focus=340778#Comment_340778 2012-09-21T11:19:24-07:00 2013-05-23T10:43:00-07:00 RenThing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=155 @Oldhat I'm glad you posted the How to make a rape joke link because I was going to. George Carlin also had a pretty good (and I'd say responsible) rape bit he did in his stand up as ...
I'm glad you posted the How to make a rape joke link because I was going to. George Carlin also had a pretty good (and I'd say responsible) rape bit he did in his stand up as well.

Regarding rape and jokes, I think I have to say that my thoughts line up with the Jezebel article (which is a weird thing to write).]]> Rape In the Media http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10841&Focus=340779#Comment_340779 2012-09-21T11:21:39-07:00 2013-05-23T10:43:00-07:00 joe.distort http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1173 i personally dont find any problems with that Dickwolves strip. i thought it was pretty clear about how it was using its own internal logic to make a joke about stereotypical rpg stuff. i didnt ... Rape In the Media http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10841&Focus=340780#Comment_340780 2012-09-21T11:26:47-07:00 2012-09-21T11:30:41-07:00 oldhat http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=75 If memory serves, there was a base rage over the strip and then Gabe and Tycho's reaction to the criticism kind of made it explode and ti turned in to a pretty disgusting thing. found a timeline ...
found a timeline of the whole..thing.

]]> Rape In the Media http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10841&Focus=340785#Comment_340785 2012-09-21T13:47:47-07:00 2013-05-23T10:43:00-07:00 mister hex http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4411 Re : Alan Moore - I have found that anytime he uses rape in a story (which kinda is a lot, now that I think about it ...) it serves a narrative purpose and isn't just prurient exploitation. I ...
Re " Rape jokes? Yeah, rape's not funny. I used to somewhat enjoy Daniel Tosh's mean-spirited clown act because you never really knew when he wasn't actually kidding. (He switches his sexuality from gay to straight and back again like, fifteen times in the course of one act. For example.) But he's a fucking jerkoff.

I find it reprehensible that DC - fucking WARNER - would put so much sexual violence in comics, ESPECIALLY Amethyst, a comic nominally aimed at "girls".]]> Rape In the Media http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10841&Focus=340786#Comment_340786 2012-09-21T14:04:21-07:00 2013-05-23T10:43:00-07:00 Steve Toase http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=10253 I think I find it disturbing when the female character is reduced to the result of an earlier rape ( I'm not saying it doesn't have an impact throughout all aspects of people's lives, but that the ... Rape In the Media http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10841&Focus=340787#Comment_340787 2012-09-21T14:06:45-07:00 2013-05-23T10:43:00-07:00 oldhat http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=75 Wasn't there a big controversy where it was looking like Lara Croft in the new Tomb Raider may have been motivated by rape? Pretty sure the developers made it clear later that wasn't the case, but ... Rape In the Media http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10841&Focus=340788#Comment_340788 2012-09-21T14:09:15-07:00 2013-05-23T10:43:00-07:00 Steve Toase http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=10253 Yeah, that's the one I was thinking of in particular. Rape In the Media http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10841&Focus=340789#Comment_340789 2012-09-21T14:13:59-07:00 2013-05-23T10:43:00-07:00 Argos http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=7792 Yeah, but it turned out that if you don't "save her" in that scene, her attacker just shoots her. It apparently was never an attempted rape. Rape In the Media http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10841&Focus=340790#Comment_340790 2012-09-21T14:14:59-07:00 2013-05-23T10:43:00-07:00 joe.distort http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1173 oh hey i missed this One thing I ALSO hate - "George Lucas raped by childhood" and comments such-like. OOOOH DONT EVEN GET ME STARTED im a hard dude to offend, but this shit drives me ...
One thing I ALSO hate - "George Lucas raped by childhood" and comments such-like.


OOOOH DONT EVEN GET ME STARTED
im a hard dude to offend, but this shit drives me fucking nuts. people that use rape to try to give some strength to their (often retarded) arguments. fuck off forever and ever.]]> Rape In the Media http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10841&Focus=340793#Comment_340793 2012-09-21T14:30:42-07:00 2013-05-23T10:43:00-07:00 RenThing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=155 @joe.distort Small thing but, while being a nerd playing WoW, I ejected a dude from a forty-man raid in the old days because he said he was going to "Rape the boss". I told the 38 ...
Small thing but, while being a nerd playing WoW, I ejected a dude from a forty-man raid in the old days because he said he was going to "Rape the boss". I told the 38 remaining players that I'd boot their asses too if I ever heard them use that kind of language. None of them disagreed.]]> Rape In the Media http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10841&Focus=340795#Comment_340795 2012-09-21T14:35:13-07:00 2013-05-23T10:43:00-07:00 Steve Toase http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=10253 I felt Iain Banks crossed the line in Transition. There is a scene which the young character overhears and it helps shapes his character, which is fine, but the detail felt like it crossed a line. Rape In the Media http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10841&Focus=340798#Comment_340798 2012-09-21T14:51:58-07:00 2013-05-23T10:43:00-07:00 RenThing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=155 Have any of you read the Thomas Covenant series? I read the first one and couldn't get past the detail that pretty much the first thing the protagonist did, after realizing he no longer had ...
I read the first one and couldn't get past the detail that pretty much the first thing the protagonist did, after realizing he no longer had leporsy, was to rape a young woman whose family had taken him in.

I'm sorry, I understand he thought it was just a dream or some kind of hallucination, but that's just fucked on several levels.]]> Rape In the Media http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10841&Focus=340799#Comment_340799 2012-09-21T14:54:20-07:00 2013-05-23T10:43:00-07:00 glukkake http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1693 I just get really tired where "this strong female character became so strong because she was raped!" is the main thing that builds female characters. Not like, oh, any number of reasons why ...
Aside from the kind of eye rolling considering that I have been through sexual violence and I haven't just immediately dedicated my life to getting revenge/going on a vigilante streak/etc. Nor have many other men and women who've been through the experience. It kind of makes the character feel two dimensional.

So it's not that I want it censored, it's just that I feel like the story isn't going to go anywhere new and it immediately makes me less interested in the book. And some days I am, in fact, so sensitive to the fact that I've just ingested so much about sexual violence towards people that I will just throw it in the garbage because I am exhausted from living in that world and this piece of fiction that was supposed to be about a bank heist or alien invasions or something is now all about how the main character was raped and how it formed them into a the whatever character they are today. And I find it disproportionately done towards strong female characters.

I mean, it's true that it's a part of life and it should be depicted so as not to whitewash experiences but it's just like, we have OTHER experiences too!


Although, in my opinion, for this book, it seems like such a throwaway scene that I'm not terribly unimpressed by it. But it's also been a slow day of rape media for me today.]]> Rape In the Media http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10841&Focus=340800#Comment_340800 2012-09-21T14:57:14-07:00 2013-05-23T10:43:00-07:00 Steve Toase http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=10253 @glukkake THIS Rape In the Media http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10841&Focus=340804#Comment_340804 2012-09-21T16:19:08-07:00 2013-05-23T10:43:00-07:00 mister hex http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4411 @glukkake - *claps loudly* THIS, indeed. @oldhat - one's mileage varies, with Chris Sims. (BATMANOLOGIST, MY AUNT PETUNIA!!!) Not the most elegant thinker but still, not BAD. Now is the time ...
@oldhat - one's mileage varies, with Chris Sims. (BATMANOLOGIST, MY AUNT PETUNIA!!!) Not the most elegant thinker but still, not BAD.

Now is the time where we mention Women In Refridgerators. (Thanks, DC!) Or the time Superman and Big Barda made a sex tape. (Thanks again, DC!) Or Identity Crisis. (YOU MIND-RAPED BATMAN?! WHAT?! And you ACTUALLY RAPED SUE DIBNY?! WHAT?!)

Like, I get it, "Biff! Bang Pow! Comics Aren't For Kids No More" but JESUS.]]> Rape In the Media http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10841&Focus=340808#Comment_340808 2012-09-21T16:34:58-07:00 2012-09-21T16:35:32-07:00 Finagle http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5254 I was waiting for Women in Refrigerators to pop up - rape and the killing of women as a way to give motivation to a male protagonist. You can *all* recognize that scene coming from a mile away. ...
You can *all* recognize that scene coming from a mile away.

The hero comes home or arrives at the villain's hideout or his wife's place of work. He takes in the broken glass, the overturned furniture. He's too late. Slowly he turns...step by step, inch by inch. The closed door of something beckons him. What's in the boooooox, man, what's in the boooox? He looks.

"NNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!" Commence revenge driven badass action.

What would be a real change for this trope would be the hero actually *living* with the woman afterwards, and having to recognize that his muscles and superpowers can't do anything to touch her PTSD when she wakes up in the night. Now that would be...different.]]> Rape In the Media http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10841&Focus=340809#Comment_340809 2012-09-21T17:54:32-07:00 2013-05-23T10:43:00-07:00 vandalhandle http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4586 Firefly also has a race of villians murderous cannibals that also rape, “If they take the ship, they’ll rape us to death, eat our flesh and sew our skins into their clothing. And if we’re very ... If they take the ship, they’ll rape us to death, eat our flesh and sew our skins into their clothing. And if we’re very very lucky, they’ll do it in that order." to me in that quote the word rape isn't needed, portraying the villians as cannibals and murders, that make clothes out of skin is enough for the 'these are bad people light' to come on in my head.

And Marvel are not innocent in this either, Lady Bullseye, Ultimate Wasp, Black Cat( they retconned her, but they may have re-retconned her since, i stopped reading ), Karma, Gamora and Young Hawkeye all have ( or it's been added later ) sexual violence as part of their backstory.]]> Rape In the Media http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10841&Focus=340814#Comment_340814 2012-09-21T18:59:42-07:00 2013-05-23T10:43:00-07:00 Warped Savant http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2376 Having rape never mentioned in the media would make it appear that the media thinks it doesn't happen. It's one thing to discuss it (IE: Friefly mentioning that the Reapers rape their victims) but ...
Mentioning rape: Doesn't bother me when used to show that someone is a bad, bad person. Describe it is different, and that would really depend on the level of description, but it would have to be really minor / non-specific for me to not find it distasteful.

Showing rape in a comic: I bought Neonomicon in singles and it has made it so that I will not buy another thing by him unless it is a complete collection that I can look through first. POV rape, fuzzy or not, justified by it being a horror comic or not, I don't care. It was brutal, went on too long, and could have been handled much better.
That being said, Crossed by Ennis and Burrows didn't bother me at all. If it happened it was either implied, didn't have much attention drawn to it (was in the background) or was so over the top it was ridiculous. Also, the difference between the two is that Crossed was a gore / visual horror comic right out of the gate whereas Neonomicon was presented as more of a psychological horror comic.

Showing rape in a movie: I walked into The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo (Amercian Version by David Fincher) knowing that there was a rape scene and that it was brutal enough that the main male actor involved locked himself in his hotel room crying for the entirety of the following day and refused to come out. It was still more brutal than I could have possibly expected. It made me uncomfortable, yes, but it seemed to fit into the movie. The other difference is that you can close your eyes, look away, plug your ears, etc. and you're only missing a few minutes of the movie but you still know what happened and you don't feel like you missed anything. With the second issue of Neonomicon, it was nearly half the issue.

A really good example of an implied rape scene in a movie: Go watch Kalifornia. Not a great movie, but they handled it so well, I have to applaud the director for how he handled it.

Personal stats if people think they matter: Male victim of sexual assault over an extended period of time at a very young age (by a female), two friends of mine have been killed and then raped, and I know a few girls that have been raped. Yes, it hits very close to home for me, no, I'm not desensitized to it, no, I don't think I'm more or less sensitive to it than most people.
Also, if you don't think you know at least 5 people that have been raped, you're fooling yourself.]]> Rape In the Media http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10841&Focus=340815#Comment_340815 2012-09-21T19:38:33-07:00 2013-05-23T10:43:00-07:00 dispophoto http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4498 it's late and i might not be expressing myself properly, but one thing that came to mind is: a lot of people, especially women who are involved in subcultures seem to have a have a higher ...
a lot of people, especially women who are involved in subcultures seem to have a have a higher percentage of experiencing sexual or other forms of assault in their childhood/teenage years. Could the comics genre or other media that caters to them be a form of connecting to them or giving them a chance to express or visualize their revenge fantasies? or a way to make them feel they are not alone?

as for knowing someone who has been raped, i can count a fair number of my exes who have experienced rape, been gang raped, roofied, in a relationship of forced sex, and one who suspects she is a product of a rape. some (like my fiancee) have been to therapy and gotten through it, but others, even with help, "completely lost her soul" as a friend put it.

i'm ambiguous about rape plots & the like, for example Koike & Kojima's "Lone Wolf and Cub" and "Samurai Executioner" have a fair number of rape scenes in their stories (especially "Executioner") but i felt they weren't gratuitous since they were tightly tied with the story. I haven't read any of Crossed and don't wish to, since i first saw some pages while going through a really bad breakup and ended up getting turned off completely by the work. On a whole, i try to avoid any stories that depict rape as much as possible.]]> Rape In the Media http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10841&Focus=340819#Comment_340819 2012-09-21T21:52:07-07:00 2013-05-23T10:43:00-07:00 dorkmuffin http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6719 OH. I thought a really good example of rape in comics, used properly, was Habibi. I also thought that comic was amazing.
I also thought that comic was amazing.]]> Rape In the Media http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10841&Focus=340822#Comment_340822 2012-09-21T22:37:34-07:00 2013-05-23T10:43:00-07:00 Mercer Finn http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5496 I wrote this after seeing Fincher's version of The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo, pasting relevant paragraph below: "Depiction of rape is complicated. One argument is that it can only be ... this after seeing Fincher's version of The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo, pasting relevant paragraph below:

"Depiction of rape is complicated. One argument is that it can only be justified when it is done from the P.O.V. of the victim, with his or her lack of consent irrevocably clear to the audience. Thus you try and limit the circulation of potentially dangerous sexual fantasies, which might lead to imitative behaviour in the real world. Another is more liberal, one that the Alan Moore who wrote Lost Girls might support. Fantasies are fantasies, who are you to judge what is criminal or not, if it remains inside people's heads? You can be as disgusting as you like, as long as you respect the rules of consent in the real world and ensure you do not hurt anyone. There are difficulties with such a John Stuart Mill view, but I tend to lean towards it rather than try and legislate on how sex should be portrayed in art. We should live in a world where we can be trusted to control our desires, rather than have them controlled by someone else."

The Alan Moore reference above may be a bit off. A better example might be Milo Manara, who I remember saying somewhere that the erotic aspect of his work (which includes depictions of rape) is ok because it's not real, it's just a book. From what I remember, he then goes on to suggest that porn actresses who debase themselves for their viewers' pleasure are performing a kind of public service and should be venerated, which strikes me as an infantile response to the porn industry, and may indicate some of the problems with his attitude.

But basically, I think my liberal belief that you should be able to produce whatever filth or stupidity you want and have it tried in the court of public opinion is compatible with my desire for beauty and intelligence in the art I consume. When judging the latter w/r/t rape, I prefer to do it case-by-case, that is to say, look at what a work's intentions are, what it says about rape and whether that's ok, rather than build rules for the portrayal of rape to be applied to everything you consume.

Fwiw, I thought the rape of Lisbeth in Fincher's movie overstepped the line, the scene should have cut when the door closed. More broadly, I thought the film failed in its intention to condemn violence against women. Manara's intentions as a pornographer are pretty clear, so I tend to give him a pass, tho once you get past the astonishing artwork the dude strikes me as pretty creepy. Moore's fixation on rape is certainly creepy as well, but it looks like he's aware of it, and that makes a massive difference (tho should say haven't read anything of his after the awful LoEG 1910).]]> Rape In the Media http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10841&Focus=340827#Comment_340827 2012-09-22T04:18:31-07:00 2013-05-23T10:43:00-07:00 Steve Toase http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=10253 Some of the hardest descriptions for me to read have been in Margaret Atwood's work. In The Handmaid's Tale I could see the relevance, but in Oryx and Crayke I found the extremely graphic portrayals ... Rape In the Media http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10841&Focus=340828#Comment_340828 2012-09-22T05:18:57-07:00 2013-05-23T10:43:00-07:00 mister hex http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4411 THE WARS by Timothy Findley has a male rape scene that takes place entirely in the dark, is terrifying and then is never mentioned again. Been a while since I read it (high school, which was ... ...
Atwood gets a pass for a lot of things but she does a fair bit of genre writing. (Her last three novels have all been 'science fiction-y') I've always gotten the feeling that she hates men, as most if not all of her male characters are either weak or evil or both.]]> Rape In the Media http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10841&Focus=340865#Comment_340865 2012-09-22T18:56:06-07:00 2013-05-23T10:43:00-07:00 Jason A. Quest http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5192 One problem I have with is the depiction of rape in most media as The Worst Thing That Could Possibly Happen to a person. It shouldn't be trivialized in jokes, either, but the trope of the rape ...
As something that exists in real life, I think it should be depicted in popular media, but of course I don't give most popular media high marks for how well they handle it. Using it to shorthand how evil the villain is, or how determined the survivor-hero is... is just unimaginative writing.

I've used rape as an element in a few stories I've written, primarily in porn, as rape fantasy. I don't believe that fantasy is inherently harmful, even if it involves things that would be harmful if acted out. (Most of the video gaming industry is fueled by fantasy violence, after all.) Having a rape fantasy or two doesn't mean someone actually wants to commit a rape, or to be raped, and indulging such fantasies with erotic fiction that reflects them doesn't encourage anyone becoming a perp/victim (and may actually discourage real-life acting out).]]>