Whitechapel - The Wager 2013-05-25T12:07:34-07:00 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/ Lussumo Vanilla & Feed Publisher The Wager http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1092&Focus=24291#Comment_24291 2008-02-19T16:13:42-08:00 2013-05-25T12:07:34-07:00 pico http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1686 Found this on metafilter. Basically, a bet to see whether video games will become as culturally relevant as novels and film in 50 years. In his own words: "I'll bet you that video games will ... this on metafilter. Basically, a bet to see whether video games will become as culturally relevant as novels and film in 50 years. In his own words: "I'll bet you that video games will never become a significant form of cultural discourse the way that novels and film have. I'll bet you that fifty years from now they'll be just as mature and well-respected as comic books are today."

Reactions.]]> The Wager http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1092&Focus=24292#Comment_24292 2008-02-19T16:19:55-08:00 2013-05-25T12:07:34-07:00 joe.distort http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1173 honestly, probably right. i wish that werent true, but it probably is. VG will always be a bastard child of the entertainment media, with one or two a year being considered "relevant" a ... The Wager http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1092&Focus=24295#Comment_24295 2008-02-19T16:25:44-08:00 2013-05-25T12:07:34-07:00 TechnocratJT http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=558 I would hazard wrong in nearly every way possible, including the current relevance of games against films in the culture at large. If the man wanted a a 50 year bet, for whats that worth, I would ...
If the man wanted a a 50 year bet, for whats that worth, I would happily go in every dollar I own on this one.]]> The Wager http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1092&Focus=24296#Comment_24296 2008-02-19T16:26:30-08:00 2013-05-25T12:07:34-07:00 muse hick http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=483 some people might consider that they are already as culturally relevant as novels and film. what qualifies it as such? enough talking heads gathered around a table having a circle jerk over the ... The Wager http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1092&Focus=24298#Comment_24298 2008-02-19T16:32:00-08:00 2013-05-25T12:07:34-07:00 alwayscrashing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=162 50 years.... I'd be 79 or more likely, considering how I've spent the first 29, dead. So I think I'll pass on this bet.
I'd be 79 or more likely, considering how I've spent the first 29, dead.

So I think I'll pass on this bet.]]> The Wager http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1092&Focus=24300#Comment_24300 2008-02-19T16:35:44-08:00 2008-02-19T16:36:33-08:00 alwayscrashing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=162 One thing though... Cultural relevance is easy, it is being as well-respected as novels and movies where the real difficulty lies. Any old shite can be culturally relevant just by being ...
Cultural relevance is easy, it is being as well-respected as novels and movies where the real difficulty lies. Any old shite can be culturally relevant just by being lowest-common-denomenator populist trash.

If he means seen as artistically equal to movies and novels though, I'd stake everything I own and both testicles against it if I thought I'd be able to collect. That seems impossible in fifty years.]]> The Wager http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1092&Focus=24302#Comment_24302 2008-02-19T16:38:38-08:00 2013-05-25T12:07:34-07:00 VeteVerde http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2418 I'm not so quick to agree. This is only a quick response, but examining film history we see the years that film spent as the bastard child of entertainment media, its struggle to establish itself ...
This is only a quick response, but examining film history we see the years that film spent as the bastard child of entertainment media, its struggle to establish itself as a legitimate form by mimicking its more legitimate sibling art forms of the day (theater and literary adaptations), and the contribution that film scholarship made to legitimizing film as an art form and legitimizing specific genres (such as French film scholars legitimizing film noir).

Years ago television was roundly criticized as being a low form of entertainment. Popular, but a low form. In recent years this perception has shifted. In this same space of time film scholars have moved to write about television shows (including frequent coverage of genre shows, which tended to be the red haired step child of "regular" television), and educated and monied people have been found to gravitate to specific shows (the coveted "West Wing" demographic).

Now... I'm not saying that drawing the attention of the educated or wealthy is a sure sign of a legitimate art form, but these are things that tend to appear together. They tend to correlate, if for no other reason than that the educated and wealthy tend to keep quiet about affection for "illegitimate" art forms, but are happy to admit to or even proclaim their affection for legitimate or high forms.

I think in the shift of perceptions about television and its becoming a legitimate form of entertainment may serve as an alternate metaphor for what can happen with video games in the next 50 years with the right conditions.]]> The Wager http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1092&Focus=24304#Comment_24304 2008-02-19T16:41:37-08:00 2013-05-25T12:07:34-07:00 Pete Martin http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=165 When video games become culturally relevant, people come out of the woodwork to try to get them banned/censored/declawed. So I say 'never' as well. Mainly because books and films have a single ...
So I say 'never' as well. Mainly because books and films have a single name to associate when video games 'sort of' do.

NORTH BY NORTHWEST by HITCHCOCK starring CARY GRANT
RABBIT, RUN by JOHN UPDIKE

HALO by... BUNGIE... and MICROSOFT for your XBOX
FIFA 08 by EA SPORTS.

Games don't tend to make "stars"]]> The Wager http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1092&Focus=24307#Comment_24307 2008-02-19T16:44:50-08:00 2008-02-19T16:49:55-08:00 pico http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1686 This seems like the wagerer thinks that what is at its inception a fringe publication/medium will forever stay that way. It isn't that he makes bad arguments, but he's starting from that base ...
Woodstock was a fringe thing, and it shaped the direction of popular music. Forever. Now granted, rock and roll was not necessarily a fringe thing at the time that Woodstock began reshaping it. But that's because the people who went, the ones who were most affected by it, were brought up with comparable music. Buddy Holly, Richie Valens, the earlier Beatles, the music that Woodstock used as a stepping stone. Using that as an analogy: since video games really became household items right around 1980-85, by the time that the kids born in that era (and those a bit before, probably 1974-ish) are having grand-kids, you won't have the gap wherein the grandparents can't see why the kids enjoy hitting buttons and watching strange shapes move around the screen for hours on end.

I want to say that comics are becoming more and more accepted as a legitimate medium, but it's a tough line to draw. People who want to read only good comics refer to them as "graphic novels." Those of us who bought the individual issues know that there's no real difference other than the binding. I'll admit that reading 100 Bullets makes a lot more sense in the TPBs, but it isn't any different when read one issue at a time. So while you have things like Maus and Sandman, things like Sin City still need to be made into films before the general population thinks about granting them the cultural relevance that comic book readers already do.]]> The Wager http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1092&Focus=24308#Comment_24308 2008-02-19T16:45:44-08:00 2013-05-25T12:07:34-07:00 alwayscrashing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=162 They are all linear forms of entertainment. I don't think it is possible to achieve the same things in an interactive medium. It relies too much on the player. Too much control over the experience ...
I don't think it is possible to achieve the same things in an interactive medium. It relies too much on the player. Too much control over the experience by the creators is lost.]]> The Wager http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1092&Focus=24309#Comment_24309 2008-02-19T16:46:13-08:00 2013-05-25T12:07:34-07:00 liquidcow http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2027 "as mature and well-respected as comic books are today" I don't know if it's meant to but this seems to be making two separate statements in one sentence. By saying 'as mature' he's ...
I don't know if it's meant to but this seems to be making two separate statements in one sentence. By saying 'as mature' he's bringing to mind the fact that there are many highly accomplished comic books out there of great artistic value, but by saying 'well-respected' he's reminding us that the vast majority still have little time or respect for comic books. I assume the important part of his point is the latter, since he seems to be betting that video games will never be fully accepted by either the mainstream or in high-art circles.

I already basically have a similar view to him. To my mind there are three things that I am highly doubtful as to their potential to ever really be 'art', and they are advertisements, pornography, and video games. I'm not being disparaging to either one of those, I just think that in each case there is a functional aspect to them that takes precedence over - and often completely negates - any artistic merit. In fact in many cases trying to introduce artistry into either one of those can be detrimental to its primary function.]]> The Wager http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1092&Focus=24310#Comment_24310 2008-02-19T16:46:59-08:00 2013-05-25T12:07:34-07:00 Pete Martin http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=165 Hold on....culturally relevant? How are we going to measure that? Halo 3 sold 5.2 million copies worldwide Harry Potter sold about 11 million Actually, I would take that bet, then immediately ...
Halo 3 sold 5.2 million copies worldwide
Harry Potter sold about 11 million

Actually, I would take that bet, then immediately demand money because he's lost. And I would punch him until he cough up.]]> The Wager http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1092&Focus=24311#Comment_24311 2008-02-19T16:50:02-08:00 2013-05-25T12:07:34-07:00 pico http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1686 @Pete Martin Metal Gear Solid by Hideo Kojima. Also, congress has been trying to get video games banned/censored/declawed for years now.
Metal Gear Solid by Hideo Kojima.

Also, congress has been trying to get video games banned/censored/declawed for years now.]]> The Wager http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1092&Focus=24314#Comment_24314 2008-02-19T16:55:34-08:00 2008-02-19T17:01:06-08:00 TechnocratJT http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=558 Or how about: Miyamoto, Wright, Sakaguchi, and Molyneux. Right now the games industry does look a bit like the studio system of early film I think, which is another issue I have with the article. ...
Right now the games industry does look a bit like the studio system of early film I think, which is another issue I have with the article. As Verde pointed out it is profoundly ahsitorical, lacking any understanding or context for how film was seen at its conception.]]> The Wager http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1092&Focus=24364#Comment_24364 2008-02-19T20:51:19-08:00 2013-05-25T12:07:34-07:00 Mark Sweeney http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=10 I think one problem of cultural relevance for video games is their short shelf life. You can still watch Casablanca on dvd, video, tv etc. But will platforms 20 years from now be able to support ...
You can still watch Casablanca on dvd, video, tv etc. But will platforms 20 years from now be able to support today's games? Will computer operating systems 20 years from now be able to support today's games? Microsoft can't even get most Xbox games to work on Xbox 360. I have several games that can no longer be played on new operating systems.

In order to have cultural relevance you would still have to be able to play those games 50 years from now, much like you watch 75 year old movies today.]]> The Wager http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1092&Focus=24365#Comment_24365 2008-02-19T21:23:09-08:00 2013-05-25T12:07:34-07:00 Mathias B http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2162 @Mark Sweeney: I don't know, to me it seems that the (relative) absence of a canon of IMMORTAL CLASSICS in videogames is a sign of the mediums relevance. It's yet to come to the stage of box-sets and ... The Wager http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1092&Focus=24370#Comment_24370 2008-02-19T21:46:45-08:00 2013-05-25T12:07:34-07:00 pi8you http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=628 @Mark Sweeney - Games only have a short shelf life if the suck or get completely surpassed in quality. Accessibility isn't an issue either thanks to emulation, people have been doing it for years ...
@Mathias - Its about time to get out of work, so I can't bounce off of yours quite so much, and can't be arsed to pull out a deep list, but there most certainly are truly immortal classics in video games- Pong, Tetris, and Sim City to name a few. G4 has certainly run a number retrospective pieces in the past(can't comment on the now as the channel has gone to shit), and even the Discovery Channel just ran a 5-part documentary called Rise of the Video Game looking back at both the history of video games as well as some of the more important movements within it. And now its time to leave.]]> The Wager http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1092&Focus=24371#Comment_24371 2008-02-19T21:47:09-08:00 2013-05-25T12:07:34-07:00 roque http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=482 the world is different today. I'd rather make a bet on whether novels and films will be as "culturally relevant" in 50 years as they are today. personally, I doubt it. the media are ... The Wager http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1092&Focus=24373#Comment_24373 2008-02-19T21:55:48-08:00 2013-05-25T12:07:34-07:00 tedcroland http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2106 Retrospective gaming is very common. Remakes, re releases, Virtual Console, Gametap, backwards compatibility; all those things exist in prominance to keep older games in the eye of the modern gamer. ...
I mean, the point of playing games is to have fun and be entertained, and many old games retain their entertainment value for many years after release, so why not keep making money on them by keeping them available? Let's also not dismiss the emulation factor. Modding the PSP to play emulators has probably sold more units than any of the actual games on it.]]> The Wager http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1092&Focus=24415#Comment_24415 2008-02-20T02:36:05-08:00 2013-05-25T12:07:34-07:00 pi8you http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=628 It certainly sold me mine tedcroland :) Mathais - Ah fuck, lost my train of thought and nothing's coming close to bringing it back on track :| I do think its time in the mainstream is coming, ...
Mathais - Ah fuck, lost my train of thought and nothing's coming close to bringing it back on track :| I do think its time in the mainstream is coming, just not in the way most expect, and I'll leave it at that for now.]]> The Wager http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1092&Focus=24419#Comment_24419 2008-02-20T02:57:01-08:00 2013-05-25T12:07:34-07:00 obliterati http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=351 In the 80's when Pac-Man was just starting to be everywhere, some wise person said "if video games really influenced our culture we'd all be running back and forth in dark rooms eating pills and ...
Another wise person once said "GAME OVER MAN! GAME OVER!"]]> The Wager http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1092&Focus=24422#Comment_24422 2008-02-20T03:25:15-08:00 2013-05-25T12:07:34-07:00 Lucifal http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=376 I'll not take the bet. Video games? That assumes that technology has remained fairly static. Video games may be a thing of the past in fifty years; taken over by some other mind-numbing ... The Wager http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1092&Focus=24429#Comment_24429 2008-02-20T04:38:05-08:00 2013-05-25T12:07:34-07:00 reasonableman http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=452 @Liquidcow Something can easily be functional and artistic. Those concepts are absolutely not mutually exclusive. I have seen examples of all three of things you have mentioned that have been both ... Something can easily be functional and artistic. Those concepts are absolutely not mutually exclusive. I have seen examples of all three of things you have mentioned that have been both very functional and very artistic. Your argument really comes down being able to pin a concrete definition onto the word 'art' and everyone knows what a silly endeavor that is. Eye of the beholder and all that.


Video games, because of their flexibility, already have the ability to do all the things that almost any other medium can do AT THE SAME TIME. They can, and have, incorporated movies, prose, music, comics, whatever.

The comic book comparison is weird. Have comics "matured" much in since the 30s? The art form itself hasn't really changed all that much, as far as the storytelling capabilities, and the format. Where as, the differences between Pong, 35 years ago, and Wii tennis are pretty large. Now compare Pong again to something like Half Life 2, and we've gone a huge distance. Video games have gone from interactive entertainment to interactive storytelling. That single aspect by itself represents quite a bit of maturing.

As far as being well-respected... Can anyone name a comic book character that has been created since 1981 that has had as much of a cultural impact as Mario? If there is one, I am totally blanking on it. In 50 years, Mario will be about as old as Superman is now. It will be really interesting to see how that character has changed.]]> The Wager http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1092&Focus=24436#Comment_24436 2008-02-20T06:05:53-08:00 2013-05-25T12:07:34-07:00 Mathias B http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2162 @pi8you: You're right, there are untouchable classics within this medium, too, and nostalgia. What I meant was that most people who regularly play videogames are still excited about new games, new ... @reasonableman and obliterati: Good points.]]> The Wager http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1092&Focus=24473#Comment_24473 2008-02-20T09:37:37-08:00 2013-05-25T12:07:34-07:00 liquidcow http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2027 @reasonableman I think what I'm saying is that one gets in the way of the other much of the time. Yeh sure there's that Guinness advert with the horses that everyone thinks is really artistic, ...
I think what I'm saying is that one gets in the way of the other much of the time. Yeh sure there's that Guinness advert with the horses that everyone thinks is really artistic, but I have my doubts as to how well it works as an advert (and personally I think it's rubbish as art as well). You could shoot a porn movie in a creative way, but it's almost certainly going to either detract from what the guy jerking off to it gets out of it, or go completely unnoticed. I think for something to really be art it can't be restricted in the way these things are. Maybe in that sense it's not a case of something being either art or not art - incidentally I don't believe that whether or not something is art depends on the quality of it - but to what extent it is artistic. In that respect video games are incredibly limited in their artistic freedom. You have to have a majority of the time dedicated to some kind of fun interaction - shooting things, negotiating obstacles etc. Lots of these games in recent years that have featured like 3 hours of story with about half an hour of gameplay just don't work. Metal Gear Solid 2 for me was an absolute failure as a game because it featured such frequent and long cut scenes. Much as I like movies and shows, some along similar lines to MGS, the fact that I was playing a video game actually made me disinterested in the story sequences, which I may not have been were it a film. You can make art that is difficult or unpleasant for the viewer, but is still artistic expression of something, but this is not true of any of the above. There is room for creativity, sure, but there are also areas of each where there are very tight limits. There is also room for creativity on a CV or a business card, but I don't think that makes them art.]]> The Wager http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1092&Focus=24495#Comment_24495 2008-02-20T10:58:18-08:00 2013-05-25T12:07:34-07:00 pico http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1686 @reasonable man The argument can be made that Neil Gaiman's Dream of the Endless has had as much impact as Mario, but in different ways. And while we can argue about the dates of publication, Art ...
The argument can be made that Neil Gaiman's Dream of the Endless has had as much impact as Mario, but in different ways. And while we can argue about the dates of publication, Art Spiegelman's MAUS certainly fits that criterion. The difference, as i'mme sure you'll point out, is that Mario is marketed (to great effect) at youth, and they keep that daffy plumber with them their whole lives. I'm one of the; I can't wait til I finally have a chance to dig into Mario Galaxy. That being said, both Dream and Maus are in that upper eschelon of characters. I realize they haven't been marketed at even close to the level that Mario has, but I don't think they are any less iconic.]]> The Wager http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1092&Focus=24558#Comment_24558 2008-02-20T15:01:28-08:00 2013-05-25T12:07:34-07:00 grenacia http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1323 I have a six year old stepdaughter who discusses video games as if they are just as culturally relevant as books*, and there's plenty of other kids who do the same. Maybe some of them will outgrow ...
* And she's already reading fantasy novels written for teenagers, so I wouldn't just put it down to her being an ignorant kid.]]> The Wager http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1092&Focus=24627#Comment_24627 2008-02-20T18:55:16-08:00 2013-05-25T12:07:34-07:00 roque http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=482 hell, I discuss video games as if they're just as culturally relevant as books. I've read some books that are pieces of mindless drivel compared to my favorite video games. I discuss video games as if they're just as culturally relevant as books. I've read some books that are pieces of mindless drivel compared to my favorite video games.]]> The Wager http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1092&Focus=24672#Comment_24672 2008-02-20T21:02:54-08:00 2008-02-20T21:04:11-08:00 reasonableman http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=452 @pico They are absolutely less iconic. If you think that Dream is as recognizable as Mario on a global scale, you are absolutely deluded. Same with MAUS. I am surely not comparing literary merit, ...
They are absolutely less iconic. If you think that Dream is as recognizable as Mario on a global scale, you are absolutely deluded. Same with MAUS. I am surely not comparing literary merit, but... Mario is The Icon of a multi billion dollar world wide company.

@liquid

I think what I'm saying is that one gets in the way of the other much of the time.


Implicit in that statement is that it is not a necessary condition, so we agree. The rest of your post is arguing taste, or implying that artistic value can be quantified, which is pointless.]]>