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    • CommentAuthorWood
    • CommentTimeDec 17th 2012
     (10932.1)
    @ Rachael

    So there are all these new people who enjoy Dr Who now. You have two possibilities : be welcoming and inclusive and try to get them to discover the old, weird, rare stuff that you like, or can you pinch your nose in disdain and say "you don't belong to My People, you are not sophisticated enough, you have no business here."

    Oh and also the 3rd possibility is just to wave your cane at them and scream "GET OFF MY LAWN!".

    But you know, I'm pretty confident that the today's nerdy kids will find new obscure, weird sophisticated things to love and to share with like-minded people. It'll probably be some un-subbed original anime thing, though.

    That's... that's what young people like, these days, isn't it ? Anime ?
  1.  (10932.2)
    I don't know about cool and hip. I would say more embedded, and there is a lot of affection for these things.
  2.  (10932.3)
    I'm not against new fans.

    I am simply explaining the understandable frustration of old fans feeling disenfranchised. I am explaining that the social landscape is changed, and why that might be disappointing to some people, in ways that aren't elitist or sexist.

    I give up.
    •  
      CommentAuthorGreasemonkey
    • CommentTimeDec 17th 2012 edited
     (10932.4)
    I agree that this is a stupid, stupid discussion to have to be having. It's fucking ridiculous.

    On the other hand, I'm glad we're hearing people call bullshit, and doing it in a measured fashion. I consider that a win for the reasonable majority.
    • CommentAuthorWood
    • CommentTimeDec 17th 2012
     (10932.5)
    @Rachael

    You know, that's just the frustration of getting old. Everybody's social landscape changes sooner or later and you find yourself in a world you don't really understand or approve anymore.

    I'm sorry, but to me you do sound a little elitist.

    Maybe that's just me, though.
  3.  (10932.6)
    @ Greasemonkey - "I agree that this is a stupid, stupid discussion to have to be having. It's fucking ridiculous."


    but...you started the discussion? You're the type of guy who likes to let the pyro hold the lighter aren't you? I'M ON TO YOU!!! :D
  4.  (10932.7)
    Long time visitor, first time commenter.

    I've never been one to join in on message boards, (too many cooks and all that) but (depending on the site) usually find them an enjoyable read.

    WhiteChapel has always been a favorite because of it's users. Interesting, positive, creative, and supportive.

    I've seen this debate on a multitude of sites. Read multiple opinions. Depending on what feelings a posted RESPONSE invokes in its reader, the debate takes form.

    Is it a QUESTION of sexism? Elitism? Resent?

    Rachael Tyrells original post on this, for me, hit on all levels.

    She addresses the issues of sexism and resentment. But most importantly, the reason of WHY it matters to her.

    I too can remember the feeling of excitement when I would meet new people with a passion for my obscure interests. And the instant bond that would form.

    So yes, I can relate to the feelings of...annoyance?...that come with what was once a small subculture becoming more of an interest to the popular cultures look and lexicon.

    But this was bound to happen.

    Re-read Come In Alone. In some ways, it was the mission.

    Just take heart that some will stay because of a real passion they find. And that is a great thing.

    Those who just use it as a self-interseted means to gain some form of social depth will fade away.

    Until then, avoid cons. Discover new things. And hang out at a comic shop.
    • CommentAuthorOddcult
    • CommentTimeDec 17th 2012
     (10932.8)
    @Wood - "You mean, you're worried that girls want to look like this ?
    <>
    That hasn't got much to do with being a "real" or a "fake" geek, now, has it ?"

    Not quite. What I'm worried about is that there's an expectation that that's what 'real geeks' want and that some girls are not necessarily wanting to be like that, but being pressured into trying to look like that. I mean, sure, everyone knows 'booth bunnies' are pretty artificial as a whole concept, and that's not really what I'm talking about, but that the 'fakes' are being created as a way to market to the subcultures in other ways too.

    Despite - or perhaps because of - working in the PR/marketing sector, I resent any kind of artificiality imposed by anyone trying to sell something.

    Someone brought up the question of whether there are 'fake geek guys' or not. Never seen 'Big Bang Theory'? That's doing exactly the same thing with blokes that some quarters have accused girls of doing.
    • CommentAuthorOddcult
    • CommentTimeDec 17th 2012
     (10932.9)
    @KeeperofManyNames - re: 'White Knighting'.

    I am old and full of bigotry and prejudice and bile and bitterness, yet am hopefully have enough hate to go round that it seems like I'm not actually all that discriminatory, but let me try to say what I mean by this. I see it as giving more attention and aid to females than a person would to a male in a similar situation. Like... some guy says they're having a rough time and maybe they just get a few vaguely supportive comments, but if a girl does, then she's given disproportionately more support. Sometimes to a level that may even be unwanted and uncomfortable for her.

    I don't see this as something that females try to invoke, but it's often arises when a difficult situation or other people being dickish is seen as an opportunity to try to gain influence or some kind of perceived or expected karma. This is different to being genuinely helpful and not expecting anything as a result and being supportive to someone just because you associate with them.

    I have a sneaking suspicion that perhaps because I used to do this when younger, I now overcompensate by being obnoxious. However, because I also have liberal guilt syndrome, I counterbalance that aspect by being obnoxious to everyone equally. So it's a lose-lose situation that I'm somehow weirdly fine with.
    •  
      CommentAuthorGreasemonkey
    • CommentTimeDec 17th 2012 edited
     (10932.10)
    "but...you started the discussion? You're the type of guy who likes to let the pyro hold the lighter aren't you? I'M ON TO YOU!!! :D"

    I'm the bomb disposal guy, dropping the live grenade into an armoured steel container with a very heavy lid.
    • CommentAuthorWood
    • CommentTimeDec 18th 2012
     (10932.11)
    @ Oddcult :
    What I'm worried about is that there's an expectation that that's what 'real geeks' want and that some girls are not necessarily wanting to be like that, but being pressured into trying to look like that.


    Does that actually happen ? Like I said, I'm far enough from that scene that I don't know exactly how it works, but do you have actual knowledge of girls cosplaying not the characters they like, but the character they feel men expect them to dress as ?
    • CommentAuthorOddcult
    • CommentTimeDec 18th 2012
     (10932.12)
    @Wood - okay, the answer to that is slightly more complicated than yes/no, and I'm sure that there are more informed voices around who could also comment, but there does seem to be some impetus for people who want a career as a model or actress etc to dress as very sexualised versions of popular characters, in order to make the galleries that you see online on various pop culture sites.

    Of course, a lot of these sites also feature well made costumes and interesting and original creations that are notable, but I'm thinking of places like Gawker sites, or even things like the sidebars of shame on various newspaper's online presences.

    So, I suppose it's a pressure for representations of characters that are getting popular to be as sexualised as possible, not just from 'geeks' themselves, but also from the mainstream.
  5.  (10932.13)
    Bored now.

    I hesitated because I don't want to discourage debate on important subjects. But this is a circular spiral of nonthings. I shan't gridbomb it from orbit, nor even sink it, because I'd like newcomers to read it through and digest it - there's some relevant stuff in here. But it's run its course.

This discussion has been inactive for longer than 5 days, and doesn't want to be resurrected.