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    • CommentAuthorRenThing
    • CommentTimeJul 9th 2013
     (11115.1)
    What do you think of the calls for boycotts against Ender's Game? Are you going to go see it? Why, why not?
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      CommentAuthoroldhat
    • CommentTimeJul 9th 2013
     (11115.2)
    The book means nothing to me because I never read it as a kid (many did and relate well to it and that's cool with me).

    I also don't care what other people do, but I for one don't plan on having my money go to someone who will place his earnings in to a group that plays an active role in treating LGBT folk like subhuman abominations.

    And the "Look, you assholes WON and can marry whoever you want so why are you bitching? Kind of intolerant if you ask me." Statement was twenty kinds of bullshit. At least. I mean, I counted twenty but there's probably more.
    • CommentAuthorRenThing
    • CommentTimeJul 9th 2013
     (11115.3)
    Oh, there were more, but your brain may have cramped trying to catalog them all.
  1.  (11115.4)
    Not going to see it. The book is not that great in the first place, Card's politics are abhorrent and, as Oldhat says, that statement is about 25-30 kinds of bullshit, starting with 'Gay rights wasn't a thing in 1984' on down to 'maybe time to practice that tolerance you preach so much, queers!'

    Did anybody see Ed Brubaker's weird 'Why bother boycotting the movie? Card's already been paid' twitter rant last night?
  2.  (11115.5)
    If other people want to throw their money OSC's way that's their business - no judgement here, but I'm not going to be one of them. This "you have to tolerate my intolerance" bullshit he's spewing right now is ridiculous.
    • CommentAuthorandycon
    • CommentTimeJul 9th 2013
     (11115.6)
    Im having a weird "Donates to Dave Sim Kickstarters/ keep me drawin' donation page, but fuck THIS guy" thoughts on this whole situation.

    Mostly because I love Cerebus but came into it after all the fire died down and Sim mostly keeps to himself, while Ive never read Ender's Game and OSC still seems to be spouting bullshit,
  3.  (11115.7)
    I think the difference between Dave Sim and OSC though, is Sim isn't a member of NOM and trying to actively affect how other people live. Sim just says offensive shit.
    • CommentAuthorsteevo
    • CommentTimeJul 9th 2013 edited
     (11115.8)
    Perhaps this won't be a popular thing to say here, but while I abhor OSC's politics, I flat out loved Ender's Game when I was a kid (and still like his writing) and I would watch it if it was directed by Charles Manson as long as it's a good movie. Sorry, this is one place that I am more than willing to separate the author from the art. He's a good writer and a bad person...so I guess I've got to live with the contradiction. I'm not willing to completely disregard a piece of fiction that shaped my worldview because the dude that wrote it turned out to be a bag of shit.

    ETA. In other news, apparently Mother Teresa was a piece of shit. Unfortunately, she did not write any good sci fi to my knowledge or I would read that too.
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      CommentAuthorglukkake
    • CommentTimeJul 9th 2013
     (11115.9)
    I'm OK with separating a piece of art from the artist if the artist is a piece of shit.

    But, in the case of Ender's Game, I don't have any particular attachment to the story (never read it) and I'm actively not going to see it in theatres.

    "Show tolerance to my intolerance for you and buy my movie tickets" my ass.
  4.  (11115.10)
    I'm skipping Ender's Game, just like I skipped Shadow Complex, for exactly the same reason. OSC's latest comment finally nailed it for me. "Hurr durr you need to tolerate blatant bigotry hurr durr."

    For me the rationale is that Orson Scott Card is not just a dick, since if that was the criteria for boycotting art and entertainment, I'd never see, read or listen to anything. The reason is that he's a socially and politically active dick and I have a good reason to believe that any money I throw his way in some form will go to funding ideas and views that are contrary to mine, and which I consider... well, actively evil. Of course, distinctions like this are "lines drawn on water" as a local proverb goes, but OSC is so far behind that line that the choice is pretty clear.
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      CommentAuthorsneak046
    • CommentTimeJul 10th 2013 edited
     (11115.11)
    Never read it, won't be watching it (because I have no interest), don't even know anything at all about it (the book). I must've been living in a weird Orson Scott Card/Ender's Game ignorance zone.

    Of course this doesn't necessarily stop me having an opinion on the usefulness of boycotting the movie. I am aware of the 'controversy' around his beliefs on non-heteronormative lifestyles, but I'm a great believer in giving people the right to hold and espouse offensive views - as they usually hang themselves with the rope they are given, and at least everyone knows where they stand: "I have more respect for a man who lets me know where he stands, even if he's wrong than the one who comes up like an angel and is nothing but a devil."

    But in the end a boycott will do nothing but harm the studio making the film though because OSC will have already been paid upfront for the screen adaptation rights. You'd be better off persuading people to not buy any of his books and hope that this kerfuffle means that no further adaptations of his works are considered worthwhile risking the shitstorm of negative media.

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      CommentAuthorVornaskotti
    • CommentTimeJul 10th 2013 edited
     (11115.12)
    Something I also like to bring up here is that the makers of the game and now the film are complaining that it's not just Orson Scott Card, it's tons of other people, so why punish them? Let me ask you this. If Ender's Game was written by a vocal member of Ku Klux Klan, who had until now been preaching racial segregation, would you be equally fast to demand tolerance?

    EDIT: Did a bit of bloggery on this: A Question for Those Who Think Ender’s Game Boycott Is Off-Target
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      CommentAuthorsneak046
    • CommentTimeJul 10th 2013
     (11115.13)
    You think allowing people freedom of speech/thought is tolerance? I hate that word and think it should be banned from use. I am intolerant of tolerance.

    Perhaps using your $10 to donate to a cause that supports LGBT people would be the ultimate eff-you to OSC
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      CommentAuthorglukkake
    • CommentTimeJul 10th 2013
     (11115.14)
    Well, doesn't punishing the production studio provide incentive for no one to ever pick him up as someone to pay to adapt their work because it will bite you? If he just gets bad press but no one gets hurt, then there still isn't an incentive NOT to pay him for his works so they can turn a profit.

    Like hey, sorry you're losing some money but maybe you could've greenlit one of the thousands of other sci-fi stories that aren't written by a bigot. Additionally, I doubt the studio is going to be severely crippled for money, but every dollar that they're told they're losing because of him should hopefully make them consider who is involved in the future.

    In the end, the studio is going to be fine because there are a lot of people who won't care or just won't know who he is or would go specifically because they agree with his views. But I'm still happier with my money not contributing to his paycheck or to refill the coffers of the people who cut him that check and I care most about that than 100% efficiency of boycotts. And yes, my money does go to LGBT support groups when I can - heck, maybe my next donation will have a note saying 'Fuck OSC'.
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      CommentAuthorsneak046
    • CommentTimeJul 10th 2013 edited
     (11115.15)
    Hence my last sentence in my first post - "You'd be better off persuading people to not buy any of his books and hope that this kerfuffle means that no further adaptations of his works are considered worthwhile risking the shitstorm of negative media."

    (EDIT) And just to be clear - I quoted Malcolm X in my first post. I am against all forms of hate. I abhor discrimination. But I also subscribe to Voltaire's opinion on freedom of speech, even vile, hurtful, incorrect and ignorant speech.
  5.  (11115.16)
    @sneak046:

    I'm very much for freedom of speech, but it's something that even as a concept is widely understood. Having freedom of speech doesn't mean in any shape or form that people need to listen to what you say, like what you say, or campaign against what you are saying. It only means that nobody is preventing you from saying it in the first place. I can't really see how this is a freedom of speech question in any shape or form. Nobody is preventing him from spouting his bigotry, but people are thoroughly allowed to persuade other people not to give him money, resources and fame to spread that bigotry efficiently. When it comes to the studio, the world is full of good sci-fi scripts that are not written by obnoxious bigots. It was their choice to greenlight one made by him. From my point of view that's their choice and they need to live with the consequences of that choice.
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      CommentAuthorsneak046
    • CommentTimeJul 10th 2013
     (11115.17)
    Granted - I take your point. Just wanted to make clear that while not necessarily seeing the point of boycotting something he's already been paid for, I don't support him. Quite the opposite.

    My main point is just don't fucking buy his shit, don't listen to him or read his articles and hopefully he'll fade into obscurity along with all the other anachronists of his ilk.
  6.  (11115.18)
    Well, my point is that also :) Long game and all that. "Working with OSC leads into a media shitstorm, as witnessed by these and these cases in the past - it makes us look bad and loses us $$$, let's greenlight something else."
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      CommentAuthorglukkake
    • CommentTimeJul 10th 2013
     (11115.19)
    It's true, but it's not just about hurting him. I'm not saying to censor him, I'm saying to let everything he touches turn to shit. And send a message about choosing to adapt the works of others who actively turn their profits into helping lobbyist hate groups.

    I mean, you can go into the whole argument that "in boycotting an already rich person, you just get them to apologize for getting caught and setting up better PR", such as in the current fiery decline of Paula Deen, who certainly hasn't learned anything about not treating another group of humans horribly. All she's learned is that if she's open about her discrimination she'll lose her profits. But then again, all her sponsors are hopefully picking up better people to give money to to shill their products. And I like that turnout just fine.

    But also, you talk about letting them hang themselves by their own rope. How, exactly, are they hanging themselves if they don't see any sort of decline in popularity or profit? Because I think I'm missing the point when people say "well, there's no efficacy in boycotting" and "they'll hang themselves anyways". Is this just that people will silently choose not to purchase their products so people shouldn't be vocal about the who/what/why or that boycotting is a flash in the pan activism that most folks forget about or...? And I'm asking this honestly, because it's an argument I hear a lot with no explanation of the logic behind it aside from "stop reposting the same shit on my FB/Twitter walls" or "you're censoring free speech with your boycott!"

    So... we just let them keep yammering about how they hate LGBT/minorities/etc and just... keep buying their products/financially supporting their endeavours/giving them a platform for all the above?
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      CommentAuthorsneak046
    • CommentTimeJul 10th 2013 edited
     (11115.20)
    Nope. Just stop buying his/their shit. This movie isn't his shit, although it has his taint all over it and I can understand why anyone wouldn't want to partake - I won't be watching it but only because I am not interested in the film/story etc - even if the novel was written by someone who's politics I'd agree with.

    The OSCs/Deens of this world all crave the oxygen of publicity that their batshittery provides. I'm saying let them get on with it, so we all know where they stand but ignore them and we'll just carry on pushing society forward with or without them. But there is actual happening evil shit going on right now that is more important for us to bend our engergies against, compared to what some silly self-opinionated SF writer has to say.