Whitechapel - Hard sci-fi

Whitechapel - Hard sci-fi Sat, 18 May 2013 18:01:12 -0700 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.1.4 & Feed Publisher Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=27746#Comment_27746 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=27746#Comment_27746 Tue, 04 Mar 2008 18:05:03 -0800 MidgetRadio
Anyway, I want to know if anyone can recommend some good, hard sci-fi books. I just watched Primer a little while ago and have a taste for a good story full of tech-jargon. Thanks. ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=27750#Comment_27750 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=27750#Comment_27750 Tue, 04 Mar 2008 18:19:32 -0800 tmofee Oceanic? I stumbled on the thing one day. I love this short story. Also The Forever War, which you probably have read already... ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=27751#Comment_27751 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=27751#Comment_27751 Tue, 04 Mar 2008 18:19:42 -0800 orwellseyes Tomorrow and Tomorrow by Charles Sheffield. Sort of a hard sci-fi version of "The Fountain". A guy refuses to accept his wife's death and spends, well, the rest of time trying to reunite with her. There's a kernal of romanticism wrapped gobs and gobs of hard-core science (life-extension tech, digital consciousness, end-time theory) fun. A bit haunting too. ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=27752#Comment_27752 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=27752#Comment_27752 Tue, 04 Mar 2008 18:21:37 -0800 warrenellis Anyway, I want to know if anyone can recommend some good, hard sci-fi books.

Recent ones, or from the entire history of the form? ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=27754#Comment_27754 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=27754#Comment_27754 Tue, 04 Mar 2008 18:23:48 -0800 MidgetRadio Recent ones, or from the entire history of the form?

Don't care. Whichever ones have had the biggest impact on you, or on the form itself. ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=27755#Comment_27755 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=27755#Comment_27755 Tue, 04 Mar 2008 18:24:13 -0800 pi8you here, so you don't even need to spend a dime on it to know what you're getting into. ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=27758#Comment_27758 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=27758#Comment_27758 Tue, 04 Mar 2008 18:28:17 -0800 RJBarker Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=27759#Comment_27759 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=27759#Comment_27759 Tue, 04 Mar 2008 18:29:36 -0800 Will Ellwood Newton's Wake by Ken MacLeod. ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=27763#Comment_27763 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=27763#Comment_27763 Tue, 04 Mar 2008 18:35:42 -0800 Dracko Rendezvous with Rama count? I don't know about the quality of the rest of the series, though.

I also hear good things about Ian M. Banks' Culture cycle, but am not familiar enough with the material to gauge its hard sci-fi quality. ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=27767#Comment_27767 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=27767#Comment_27767 Tue, 04 Mar 2008 18:44:13 -0800 Will Ellwood I also hear good things about Ian M. Banks' Culture cycle, but am not familiar enough with the material to gauge it's hard sci-fi quality.

They are good. Seriously, awesomely good. Really worth reading. But I don't know if it's hard either. Maybe a definition of what the original poster means by hard science fiction. I recommend Excession. Although maybe The Algebraist is more in line with what people consider hard science fiction. ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=27768#Comment_27768 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=27768#Comment_27768 Tue, 04 Mar 2008 18:49:39 -0800 RJBarker Matter recently in a slightly pretentious manner. Pick for me would be 'Use of Weapons' or 'Consider Phlebas'. Beautiful writing. ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=27770#Comment_27770 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=27770#Comment_27770 Tue, 04 Mar 2008 19:08:37 -0800 Corey Waits Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=27774#Comment_27774 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=27774#Comment_27774 Tue, 04 Mar 2008 19:21:15 -0800 Dahkr Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=27775#Comment_27775 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=27775#Comment_27775 Tue, 04 Mar 2008 19:22:38 -0800 zenbullet
How hard or soft sci fi is depends on how rigorously the rules are adhered to.

There are other basic ideas moving around, but generally that's how I define it.

No FTL {within reason}, realistic orbital mechanics, that kind of stuff. The New Space Opera movement coming out of Britain is pretty hard, whereas early Space Opera {Star Wars} is very soft, so that's a good within subgenre look at the idea.

Older hard stuff generally didn't have great character development since the focus was really on the science. Larry Niven made an early part of his career just writing about the weird locales you can have in space.

The Coldest Place, for instance, written before we knew Mercury rotated, was about the coldest place in the solar system, the dark side of Mercury. Cool idea, not a lot of great character work.

{and don't jump my ass about that generalization, Niven is one of my favorite authors too} ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=27784#Comment_27784 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=27784#Comment_27784 Tue, 04 Mar 2008 19:55:02 -0800 sybil.dysobedience Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=27802#Comment_27802 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=27802#Comment_27802 Tue, 04 Mar 2008 20:43:22 -0800 warrenellis How hard or soft sci fi is depends on how rigorously the rules are adhered to.

No. If we're going to talk about this, let's do it right.

Hard sf is sf about the physical, "hard" sciences. Soft sf is about the social sciences. Those are the definitions. ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=27805#Comment_27805 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=27805#Comment_27805 Tue, 04 Mar 2008 21:08:22 -0800 omer333
What are some of the better works in hard sf, and what are some of the better works in soft sf? Where do Gibson or Bradury or Asimov or Harlan Ellison fall into those two classifications?

I wanting to know so I can go read this stuff. ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=27872#Comment_27872 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=27872#Comment_27872 Wed, 05 Mar 2008 02:38:29 -0800 m1k3y Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=27880#Comment_27880 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=27880#Comment_27880 Wed, 05 Mar 2008 03:27:17 -0800 Ted
Asimov would be, I would say, more soft in general. Whilst his books feature advanced tech, they are mostly, Foundation series in particular, looking at the society involved, with machinery barely featuring, only as means to an end. The Foundation books are, though, lovely.

I, Robot could be classed as hard sf, as it's dealing with a history of robots, albeit through tales of the men and women who worked on them. ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=27885#Comment_27885 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=27885#Comment_27885 Wed, 05 Mar 2008 04:09:45 -0800 nigredo
Also, Stephen Baxter (Vacuum Diagrams), Greg Bear (Blood Music, Eon), Gregory Benford (Time-scape), Greg Egan (Permutation City), Larry Niven (Ringworld, The Mote in God's Eye, The Integral Trees). ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=27892#Comment_27892 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=27892#Comment_27892 Wed, 05 Mar 2008 05:17:33 -0800 warrenellis What are some of the better works in hard sf, and what are some of the better works in soft sf? Where do Gibson or Bradury or Asimov or Harlan Ellison fall into those two classifications?

Here's the thing -- sf does not divide into hard and soft, okay? It's not a binary process.

Harlan, I think, would reject the notion that he writes sf at all. I suspect he sees himself as working in the tradition of Borges. He can and has written sf, but I don't think he'd define the bulk of his work that way.

Bill Gibson's interesting, because one of the early labels attached to what became cyberpunk was "Radical Hard SF." The NEUROMANCER trilogy certainly falls within hard sf, but one of the points of cyberpunk was that it would also fall under the rubric of social science fiction. ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=27898#Comment_27898 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=27898#Comment_27898 Wed, 05 Mar 2008 06:13:27 -0800 tmofee Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=27904#Comment_27904 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=27904#Comment_27904 Wed, 05 Mar 2008 07:21:41 -0800 Paul Duffield
The Birthday of the World is a great place ot start, being a colleciton of short stories and giving a gentle insight into her huge universes.
The Left Hand of Darkness is a wonderful novel. ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=27905#Comment_27905 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=27905#Comment_27905 Wed, 05 Mar 2008 07:26:12 -0800 Fredrik Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=27909#Comment_27909 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=27909#Comment_27909 Wed, 05 Mar 2008 07:33:32 -0800 warrenellis Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=27914#Comment_27914 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=27914#Comment_27914 Wed, 05 Mar 2008 08:44:07 -0800 erudite_ogre The Forever War has hard SF elements, but also "soft" ones in dealing about the effects of war. Timescape is much more interested in the intricacies of scientific theories. Heinlein, for example, is generally regarded as a hard SF writer, yet he also blended social issues into a number of his works. I think that the best SF writers, like Robinson, do that blending quite well, so that it not just about the science, but its impact on human beings.

Harlan Ellison has described himself in the past as a fantasist, fabulist, and writer of speculative fiction, and has taken great umbrage to the label of "SF" or the more horrifying "sci-fi" when applied to his work. ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=27923#Comment_27923 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=27923#Comment_27923 Wed, 05 Mar 2008 09:15:10 -0800 Thumpsquid Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=27926#Comment_27926 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=27926#Comment_27926 Wed, 05 Mar 2008 09:39:03 -0800 warrenellis The way I always understood "Hard SF" as opposed to "SciFi"

Well, now it's been explained to you.

If this thread continues with, "Yeah, but the definition I thought up in my head when I was taking a dump on my eighth birthday is --" then it's going to get shut down. ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=27935#Comment_27935 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=27935#Comment_27935 Wed, 05 Mar 2008 09:56:05 -0800 oneiros Calculating God and Factoring Humanity are my favourites, but his Neanderthal Parallax trilogy and Mindscan were also very good. Aliens, androids, uploading consciousness, messages from space, quantum physics and parallel Earths -- that's some good sci-fi. ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=27949#Comment_27949 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=27949#Comment_27949 Wed, 05 Mar 2008 10:30:47 -0800 Angela Hunt
Did Greg Bear get mentioned at all with Eon? Another good one. Actually, Greg Bear in general. I would also put in the other Bear, Elizabeth Bear's Hammered Trilogy, which was amazingly good as well.

Niven and Pournelle, obvee, of course. ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=27970#Comment_27970 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=27970#Comment_27970 Wed, 05 Mar 2008 11:10:58 -0800 ScottBieser
And, to pick something more obscure, L. Neil Smith's _Pallas_ describes a plausible and well-thought depiction of how one of the closer Dwarf Planets might be colonized and terraformed. On this world he establishes a sort of high-tech hunter-gatherer culture. You may or may not like his politics but it's still a good read.

And times do change -- when I was in college "sci-fi" was considered unhip and derogatory; more recently it's been embraced, but now I'm starting to see a resurgence of the older aversion to the term. Which is why I like "fantastika" and keep hoping it will catch on.

One more thing -- I haven't yet read any of his works but Vernor Vinge appears to have formed something of a bridge between classic hard-sf and modern cyberpunk. His themes have covered "cyberspace" when that concept was just starting to solidify in the early 1980s, and the technological "singularity." ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28018#Comment_28018 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28018#Comment_28018 Wed, 05 Mar 2008 13:58:53 -0800 warrenellis
I read one of Vinge's books and found it pretty painful going, but he seems to have a huge audience... ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28042#Comment_28042 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28042#Comment_28042 Wed, 05 Mar 2008 14:55:03 -0800 StefanJ The Wailing Asteroid in a thrift shop. Leinster seemed to be immensely influential at one point, but little read today. I picked it up largely because the book was made into a wonderfully dreadful B-movie in the 1960s ("The Terrornauts") that scared the hell out of me as a kid.

It's set at the very beginning of the Space Race, and follows the attempt by an engineer obsessed by implanted memories to investigate an asteroid that has begun transmitting a distress signal.

Like a lot of SF novels before the 80s, it was rather slender, under 200 pages. A fast read, and pretty satisfying. A bit sexist and enamored of square-jawed cold war attitudes, but Leinster takes pains to turn a "engineer builds a spaceship in his garage" story into something plausible.

* * *

I really liked some of Robert Reed's early novels, and found his short story "Hybrid" wonderfully disturbing, but the last few of this I read, Marrow and Sister Alice, did nothing for me. Too much technology-as-magic and tiresome hereditary elites tropes. ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28044#Comment_28044 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28044#Comment_28044 Wed, 05 Mar 2008 14:57:44 -0800 m1k3y
in fact I've got one of his 'Ware books on my To-Read pile. will have to take that away with me this Easter. ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28048#Comment_28048 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28048#Comment_28048 Wed, 05 Mar 2008 15:05:04 -0800 remotepush kim stanley robinson's mars trilogy gets another vote from me.

i expected more from alastair reynolds, when i finally got round to reading revelation space i was very unimpressed by it, though his shorts had suggested more. ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28054#Comment_28054 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28054#Comment_28054 Wed, 05 Mar 2008 15:27:55 -0800 RJBarker Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28067#Comment_28067 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28067#Comment_28067 Wed, 05 Mar 2008 16:14:26 -0800 paulmcenery Warren said: No. If we're going to talk about this, let's do it right. Hard sf is sf about the physical, "hard" sciences. Soft sf is about the social sciences. Those are the definitions.

Well, they are now. But that's because someone decided to define soft sf as the opposite of hard sf (which I think was already in circulation) in so far as the social sciences are supposed to be "softer" than the "hard" sciences.

Before they did that, though, it seems to me that all SF that was speculation in a rigourous vein was hard sf; and looseygoosey stuff that just had space aliens and ray guns in it was the opposite of hard sf.

From my POV, you can be just as rigourous and predictive in psychology, sociology and anthropology; and if you're not, you're not really doing science at all. So I think something's lost in the definition slide. ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28070#Comment_28070 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28070#Comment_28070 Wed, 05 Mar 2008 16:25:10 -0800 StefanJ
Ken MacLeod stuff I've read over the last few years: The Stone Canal, and the trilogy Cosmonaut Keep / Dark Light / Engine City.

There are some similarities between the two settings that made me wonder if MacLeod was running out of ideas, but they play out quite differently. Good, but not great. More space opera than Hard SF in any case.

Lesse. Building Harlequin's Moon by Larry Niven and Brenda Cooper. Sort of. Cooper wrote it, based on ideas and notes by Niven. This is genuine hard SF. No FTL or handwaving to make things easy. There's nanotech and AI and such, but the characters have good reasons to keep them in check; they're fleeing a solar system where something like the Singularity may have occurred. As the title suggests, they build a moon, and populate it, as a repair base, which they eventually plan to abandon. It's slow to start and too damn long and low-key, but ultimately satisfying. ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28074#Comment_28074 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28074#Comment_28074 Wed, 05 Mar 2008 16:38:19 -0800 nigredo Bill Gibson's interesting, because one of the early labels attached to what became cyberpunk was "Radical Hard SF." The NEUROMANCER trilogy certainly falls within hard sf, but one of the points of cyberpunk was that it would also fall under the rubric of social science fiction.

I would imagine that most cyberpunk novels fall within hard sf, mostly because they largely deal with IT, nanotechnology etc. A lot of them are certainly more social in scope and a major factor for that is that the technologies concerned were more immediate, with the result that those novels ended up exploring and almost describing what would come a decade later. Novels like Snow Crash or Neuromancer do not engage with the social in the macrocosmic scope of The Dispossessed for example, which is more like a thought experiment, or some of Banks' Culture novels, but they focus on the more imminent social effects of technology.

Inasmuch as sf explores the social effects of technological applications, the situation you mentioned above will apply anyway. ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28080#Comment_28080 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28080#Comment_28080 Wed, 05 Mar 2008 17:13:43 -0800 paulmcenery
Passages deals with the physiology of near death experiences; even though it deals with the fantasy aspect of what we experience in NDEs, it's all about the hardwiring and the scientific discovery of the evolutionary point of NDEs. So that's hard, I think.

Belweather's a bit sketchier, because it's dealing with something very like a pseudo-science in the statistical analysis of social trends, with the macguffin of a character who innately is just plain good at being one step ahead of the zeitgeist. Since the book is in part an investigation of how to make this statistical analysis more rigourous and create genuine predictions, that seems hard SF to me.

And The Speed of Dark is mostly an investigation of what it's like to be autistic. That's the soft science of psychology in the soft method of humanist imagination. But at the same time, it's very much about the physiology and the possibilities of physiological alteration leading to psychological alteration.

So that's where I think Hard and Soft SF blur into each other; with the idea that Hard SF is, as it were, an attitude, where rigorous scientific method and prediction, and a technological approach to the soft sciences, is what counts, rather than the subject matter.

All three of the above are very well written, too; which is quite probably more important. ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28110#Comment_28110 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28110#Comment_28110 Wed, 05 Mar 2008 19:21:57 -0800 johnjones
For the record, Flint assumes a many-worlds/branching-timelines cosmology, so there's no business about "how do we prevent the timelines from being changed." Instead you effectively have a story about the colonization of an inhabited alien world when that world is still Earth. ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28112#Comment_28112 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28112#Comment_28112 Wed, 05 Mar 2008 19:42:42 -0800 Fractal
And RENDEZVOUS WITH RAMA should be required reading.

I can highly recommend Ian M. Banks' work, especially EXCESSION and FEERSUM ENDJIIN...but I wouldn't call them hard SF, per say. (Also, start with EXCESSION - FEERSUM ENDJINN is a tough read)

Lastly, I'd just like to take this moment to say that I utterly, totally, and completely loath Verner Vinge. ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28115#Comment_28115 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28115#Comment_28115 Wed, 05 Mar 2008 19:49:32 -0800 howyadoin The Ascent of Wonder: The Evolution of Hard SF (edited by David Hartwell & Kathryn Cramer) to the list. ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28140#Comment_28140 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28140#Comment_28140 Wed, 05 Mar 2008 22:21:09 -0800 Kosmopolit
Coalescent, the first in the series, is pretty good.

Exultant isthe second is one o the best hard sf novels ever.

Transcendent, the third,is sadly, much weaker.

Vernor Vinge's "A Deepness in the sky" and "A Fire in the Sky" are really outstanding space opera (especially "Fire").

Rainbow's End by Vinge is weaker but is still one of the better efforts at describing the concept of The Singularity. ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28144#Comment_28144 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28144#Comment_28144 Wed, 05 Mar 2008 22:37:01 -0800 Kosmopolit
From the wikipedia entry on hard sf:

Hard science fiction is a category of science fiction characterized by an emphasis on scientific or technical detail, or on scientific accuracy, or on both.[1][2] The term was first used in print in 1957 by P. Schuyler Miller in a review of John W. Campbell, Jr.'s Islands of Space in Astounding Science Fiction.[3][4][5] The complementary term soft science fiction (formed by analogy to "hard science fiction"[6]) first appeared in the late 1970s as a way of describing science fiction in which science is not featured, or violates the scientific understanding at the time of writing.

The OED gives the following citations for the term:

Schyler 1957 It is also very characteristic of the best ‘hard’ science fiction of its day.

Atheling 1970: Wells used the term originally to cover what we would today call ‘hard’ science fiction, in which a conscientious attempt to be faithful to already known facts (as of the date of writing) was the substrate on which the story was to be built, and if the story was also to contain a miracle, it ought at least not to contain a whole arsenal of them.

Hartwell 1982: his is a quick rundown of the main possibilities an omnivore might fix on: classic fantasy (ghost stories, legends, tales); supernatural horror (two categories: classic—from Le Fanu, Blackwood, and Machen to Stephen King and Rosemary's Baby ; and Lovecraftian, the school of H. P. Lovecraft and his followers); Tolkienesque fantasy (in the manner of Lord of the Rings—carefully constructed fantasy worlds as the setting for a heroic quest); heroic fantasy (barely repressed sex fantasy in which a muscular, sword-bearing male beats monsters, magicians, racial inferiors, and effete snobs by brute force, then services every willing woman in sight—and they are all willing); Burroughsian science fantasy (adventure on another planet or thinly rationalized SF setting in which fantasy and anachronism—sword fighting among the stars—are essentials); space opera (the Western in space); hard science fiction (the SF idea is the center of attention, usually involving chemistry or physics or astronomy); soft science fiction (two alternate types: one in which the character is more important than the SF idea; the other focusing on any science other than physics or chemistry).

Only the last of the three supports Ellis' interpretation. ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28166#Comment_28166 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28166#Comment_28166 Thu, 06 Mar 2008 01:23:44 -0800 johnjones Here's where I risk the wrath of The Ellis.

@Kosmopolit

No, you're inviting the wrath of Ellis. And you're doing it, apparently, to score a point in a game that's already been declared over. Leaving aside that you're citing Wikipedia, which is just people typing in data that may not have the slightest association with accuracy, there's no reason to continue citing sources or arguing the point. Because the man who runs the forum and generously allows us to post here has told you (and everyone else) not to do it.

It's like you've seen a hungry, angry bear and decided to poke it with a sharp stick. Then, before you do, the bear turns to you and in a loud, clear, easily understandable voice says, "Don't poke me with that stick or I'll knock your head off of your shoulders." And you're still deciding that no matter what, you're going to poke the bear with the stick.

Okay, well good luck with that. ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28179#Comment_28179 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28179#Comment_28179 Thu, 06 Mar 2008 02:47:26 -0800 tmofee Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28181#Comment_28181 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28181#Comment_28181 Thu, 06 Mar 2008 02:56:01 -0800 Chris M Ferguson Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28182#Comment_28182 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28182#Comment_28182 Thu, 06 Mar 2008 03:04:25 -0800 zenbullet {and the First Well}
first of all,
Sincerely Warren
I like your definition, makes total sense,
made me think many a thing about sci fi
but now I'm stuck

see
now
I'm left lacking a void in how I define the value of sci fi,
which is not,
what sciences are included,
but how rigorously those sciences are followed.

{Also, I'm using Larry Niven's def of Hard SF,
I have to track down an anthology/history of Space Opera,
but I'm also using their definition of sci fi}

not to take this into quote land, I'm not, but that was my working def of hard/soft.
And now I need a phrase to cover that, let's come up with a new one of those!
Aside from hard/soft, what is the term you use for how "realistic" sci fi is?

So basically,
what I'm saying is
I see a lot more right,
and
easier to define!
with Warren Ellis's definition,
than mine

but void

{edited cuz i was a rude drunken bastard earlier} ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28222#Comment_28222 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28222#Comment_28222 Thu, 06 Mar 2008 05:58:30 -0800 erudite_ogre
Funny thing is, when you click on the "soft SF" wiki link, it says:

"Soft science fiction, or soft SF, like its complementary opposite hard science fiction, is a descriptive term that points to the role and nature of the science content in a science fiction story. The term first appeared in the late 1970s and early 1980s and indicated SF based not on engineering or the "hard" sciences (for example, physics, astronomy, or chemistry) but on the "soft" sciences, and especially the social sciences (anthropology, sociology, psychology, political science, and so on).[1] Another sense is SF that is more concerned with character, society, or other speculative ideas and themes that are not centrally tied to scientific or engineering speculations. A third sense is SF that is less rigorous in its application of scientific ideas, for example allowing faster-than-light space travel in a setting that otherwise follows more conservative standards." (italics mine) So, it looks like the "hard SF" entry writer kinda left out the multiplicity of meanings in their entry . . .

And in fact, the rest of the "soft SF" entry (which I think needs more expansion) goes on to talk about the problematic aspects of the distinctions.

Food for thought. ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28223#Comment_28223 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28223#Comment_28223 Thu, 06 Mar 2008 06:31:38 -0800 zenbullet hard/soft
or logical/illogical

I say we vote on it,
settle it once and for all for future generations!
I vote for looseygoosey as being the word for soft/illogical.

in the meantime
let's recommend {hard and logical} sci fi

I stand by Pushing Tin by Alastair Reynolds

@erudite
Along the same path I was thinking about earlier- while I was walking to work, Space Opera originally meant metal bikini chicks on sweaty Venus, but later came to mean, Big Ideas!

Basically I think this whole def ambiguity comes from changing definitions over time.

{which, you know, happens}

@warren
The only Vinge I recommend is RainbowSend, but barely...
{but it does have a cool version of haptics, and that fucken end fight scene I always babble about} ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28225#Comment_28225 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28225#Comment_28225 Thu, 06 Mar 2008 06:54:41 -0800 liquidcow Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28254#Comment_28254 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28254#Comment_28254 Thu, 06 Mar 2008 09:06:24 -0800 warrenellis Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28287#Comment_28287 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28287#Comment_28287 Thu, 06 Mar 2008 11:21:46 -0800 RJBarker Space Opera originally meant metal bikini chicks on sweaty Venus,

It's really time this sort of thing came back into vogue. ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28320#Comment_28320 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28320#Comment_28320 Thu, 06 Mar 2008 14:06:31 -0800 warrenellis
Any girl who's worn a metal bikini for any length of time will, I have been assured, re-educate people about the definition of "depressing." ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28328#Comment_28328 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28328#Comment_28328 Thu, 06 Mar 2008 14:34:42 -0800 RJBarker Nuns in metal Bikini's. I missed a trick there. ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28340#Comment_28340 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28340#Comment_28340 Thu, 06 Mar 2008 15:04:24 -0800 erudite_ogre
Heh, in my defense, I was trying to point out that basing something on Wiki was creating a shaky foundation, and that it was pretty easy to see the holes in the citation if you poked around a bit. . . .

The net itself seems like a poor place to find good material on the topic, at least within 15 minutes :-). I see a lot of what has already been discussed, particularly the fact that there seems no definitive definition of hard SF.

I did however find an amusing site with "Hard SF Tools" that includes a computing program to translate calendar days into Middle-Earth time! Check out this site for some laughs, and to plan a planet's orbit! ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28456#Comment_28456 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28456#Comment_28456 Thu, 06 Mar 2008 21:25:37 -0800 Dahkr Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28504#Comment_28504 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28504#Comment_28504 Fri, 07 Mar 2008 01:40:12 -0800 zenbullet
Fallen Dragon like a mother fucker!
In the future, corporations show up on colony planets every hundred years or so claiming said planets owe them money from five hundred years ago.

Hijinks ensue.

{also a cool Arabian Nights-esque structure I really enjoyed} ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28580#Comment_28580 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28580#Comment_28580 Fri, 07 Mar 2008 09:18:02 -0800 Elohim Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28583#Comment_28583 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28583#Comment_28583 Fri, 07 Mar 2008 09:49:29 -0800 Egon
However, I did have a friend once who was very savvy with network security. He hacked some high level government sites only to wake up with morning with the FBI, CIA, NSA, freaking NASA and some snarling dogs in his white trash barn yard of a house. The way I remember it going, he served some time for it, then was actually hired by the government, only to fuck up that gig by getting caught doing other recreational hacking. So back to prison he went. I'm pretty sure he's out by now, but he's got a court order to stay away from computers. ..or maybe that's over now. I don't know. Haven't seen him in years.

A similar thing happened to another friend of mine in the same circle, but instead of fucking up, he went on to start eEye Security. He was even on an MTV special talking about "hacking is this world where you just get lost sometimes, and can't come out" while walking down the beach to sad music. I remember laughing my ass off at that one. ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28590#Comment_28590 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28590#Comment_28590 Fri, 07 Mar 2008 10:03:37 -0800 RJBarker Simon R. Green's Deathstalker.

Any author who recreates 'Heart of Darkness/Apocalypse Now' with teddy bears in a sci-fi setting gets my vote. ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28684#Comment_28684 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28684#Comment_28684 Fri, 07 Mar 2008 15:34:42 -0800 Unsub
I found Charles Stross as a result of this site and am 80% through Accelerando which is slow going simply because I need a bit of time between reading sessions to allow it all to sink in.
Ironically I found a similarity between the singularity in his work and Judgement day in the Terminator TV show. What would a weakly god like intelligence think about humans?

The Canadian army has a sci fi/military story that takes place in Afghanistan in 2025 on their website as a way of coming up with innovative ideas as well as recruiting. I find it quite interesting that they think it a worthwhile tool. It is not like the US army with billions to throw around either. ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28703#Comment_28703 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28703#Comment_28703 Fri, 07 Mar 2008 17:41:04 -0800 m1k3y

The Canadian army has a sci fi/military story that takes place in Afghanistan in 2025 on their website

oh, link please! ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28972#Comment_28972 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28972#Comment_28972 Sun, 09 Mar 2008 16:38:39 -0700 MrD
I went from a couple of softly written novels into this one and it bogged me down. I struggled to get through it, taking in the ideas and effects of gene viruses. Eventually I came away thinking it was worth the hassle, somehow! ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28999#Comment_28999 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=28999#Comment_28999 Sun, 09 Mar 2008 19:27:32 -0700 jcfiala I'd heard a lot of good things about Vernor Vinge, so I bought Across Realtime, which turned out to be two books collected. I read The Peace War, which turned out to be a fairly silly sci-fi story about people zapping each other with 'bobbles', which are basically like time-freezing bubbles. I was not impressed. I haven't read the other one.

Hmm... I remember those books with a lot of fondness. The first one is about bobbles, which froze time, yes. The second time (Marooned in Realtime) involved a much more advanced technology, where a bunch of refugees from human civilization are basically living together and killing time - they were using bobbles to freeze themselves in time to see what happens 'later'... and at some point came back into realtime and discovered that human civilization had packed up and gone somewhere, or something, because it was no longer around and there were no records to it's passing. And in it, a detective (later made famous by his grandson writing novels based on his life) has to solve a murder mystery where the weapon is time and the victim has been dead a few hundred years. ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=29013#Comment_29013 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=29013#Comment_29013 Sun, 09 Mar 2008 21:33:12 -0700 SilentObjector You can also join his legion of rabid fans in predicting how all of the stories fit together, if you are so inclined. ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=29044#Comment_29044 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=29044#Comment_29044 Mon, 10 Mar 2008 03:15:07 -0700 Yskaya Light by M. John Harrison and his second book Nova Swing

The first has the 'primer' movie feel. Two boys trying to increase datastorage invent a quantum singularity (sort of.. just read) or perhaps they don't. It has dragraces with old spaceships, aliencircuses and futuretelling.

The second book is best described with: 'science is the prize' and has Kafka-Einstein- cast as it's private detective.
Both can be read single and out of order. ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=29073#Comment_29073 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=29073#Comment_29073 Mon, 10 Mar 2008 07:44:37 -0700 magatsu
I was searching for the name of LIGHT's author, and then I read your post. Thanks for bringing (this) Harrison into the conversation.

I too recommend M. John Harrison's work. ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=29171#Comment_29171 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=29171#Comment_29171 Mon, 10 Mar 2008 15:33:36 -0700 hmobius Also most fo Greg Egan's stuff. ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=29195#Comment_29195 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=29195#Comment_29195 Mon, 10 Mar 2008 17:17:09 -0700 pi8you Spin made for some pretty good first-contact sci-fi, at least as interesting as Contact, if not more so, as I enjoyed the characters more. I've yet to get to the sequel Axis though- slowly working myself through a fantasy pile that'll probably last me until the mass market paperback comes out. Blind Lake, the other book of his I've read, was also pretty enjoyable, though I always give points to anything that gets set in Northern Minnesota(and double for the Winter), so your mileage may vary. Both do focus more on the characters, but the sci-fi stuff itself fairly interesting in its own right. ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=31091#Comment_31091 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=31091#Comment_31091 Tue, 18 Mar 2008 12:56:53 -0700 snarkbites Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=32224#Comment_32224 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=32224#Comment_32224 Fri, 21 Mar 2008 22:06:40 -0700 jayverni Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=32266#Comment_32266 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=32266#Comment_32266 Sat, 22 Mar 2008 02:51:07 -0700 Salgood Sam he's already been mentioned but i was mad for Iain M. Banks, Iain Banks too but this is about sf. Also Kim Stanley Robinson, fantastic.
i guess, Spinrad would be soft then?
I really enjoyed Daniel Keys Moran as well, and you can get his stuff online here now gratis. http://immunitysec.com/resources-dkm.shtml ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=32267#Comment_32267 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=32267#Comment_32267 Sat, 22 Mar 2008 02:53:25 -0700 Prof Structure Justina Robson straddles it for me - esp. Living Next Door to the God of Love, although the Quantum Gravity series has her stomping about on the soft-side, generally taking the piss. ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=32269#Comment_32269 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=32269#Comment_32269 Sat, 22 Mar 2008 02:57:28 -0700 Prof Structure Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=32309#Comment_32309 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=32309#Comment_32309 Sat, 22 Mar 2008 08:09:57 -0700 Kosmopolit Days of Atonement is worth checking out. It's exceptional in that it uses a foundation of very well-thought-out factually-based hard science to engage in the sort of philosophical speculation that Arthur C Clarke went in for. ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=36527#Comment_36527 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=36527#Comment_36527 Fri, 04 Apr 2008 11:06:13 -0700 graves fantasy, surely? ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=36543#Comment_36543 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=36543#Comment_36543 Fri, 04 Apr 2008 11:50:30 -0700 Winther
And on the topic of Mr. Simmons, in his most recent 'Message' (Monster sized semi-regular blog entries), he argues that Hard SF (here defined as something which "theoretically, takes no liberties with science in its speculation", but let's not open that can of worms again) gets dated more quickly, and more obviously, than non-Hard SF. The article in question can be found here. The relevant passage is about 2/3's down, easiest way to find it is probably to do a word search for 'Hard Science Fiction'. The whole article is a pretty interesting read, though. They generally are, even if I disagree pretty radically with his arguments at times.

Anyway, any thoughts? ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=36747#Comment_36747 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=36747#Comment_36747 Sat, 05 Apr 2008 09:23:42 -0700 Ben Gwalchmai
I wont try to define Hard SF or soft SF but - using Winther's cited Dan Simmons article - will say that 'technically' J.G. Ballard's Crash covers both.

Of course, in saying that, I've now just attempted a definition.

[Thank you Winther for pointing out the article. His bemused comic distaste for 'Famous Author of Hard SF' was warmly palpable and important in his argument - it led me to read the whole article twice just so I could see if what I was laughing at was really worth laughing at...and it was.]

If anyone's interested in the philosophical roots of perhaps why Hard SF gets dated so quickly, they should give Paul Virilio's Speed & Politics a read first then move on to his other, later but less interesting stuff. ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=84991#Comment_84991 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=84991#Comment_84991 Thu, 18 Sep 2008 04:32:19 -0700 ENGINE
@jcfiala
I'm actually rather interested in that bobble thing now. ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=85076#Comment_85076 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=85076#Comment_85076 Thu, 18 Sep 2008 11:19:37 -0700 Lucifal Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=85189#Comment_85189 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=85189#Comment_85189 Thu, 18 Sep 2008 17:13:50 -0700 earl
Greg Bear's Blood Music would be considered hard scifi and his look into nanotechnology written in the 80s is really interesting. I'm kind of surprised no super hero comic book has nicked his story for an origin.

I also love William Gibson's Sprawl trilogy and Bruce Sterling's Schismatrix. Those are some of my favorites. ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=85307#Comment_85307 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=85307#Comment_85307 Fri, 19 Sep 2008 05:29:52 -0700 ENGINE Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=85365#Comment_85365 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=85365#Comment_85365 Fri, 19 Sep 2008 08:07:01 -0700 Val A Lindsay II
Larry Niven, 'Ringworld'; I feel like pointing to it is a little blatantly obvious, but hey; The sequel was literally spawned because of the questions in regards to the soundness of the science involved. ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=85539#Comment_85539 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=85539#Comment_85539 Fri, 19 Sep 2008 19:47:09 -0700 earl Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=86360#Comment_86360 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=86360#Comment_86360 Tue, 23 Sep 2008 05:10:47 -0700 ENGINE Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=86364#Comment_86364 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=86364#Comment_86364 Tue, 23 Sep 2008 05:53:59 -0700 jayverni
I think the "tree of life" and the whole Pak Protector/aided evolution story in Ringworld is one of my absolute favorites. One I still pull out and use to try to explain my fascination with science fiction. ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=97052#Comment_97052 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=97052#Comment_97052 Fri, 31 Oct 2008 16:14:54 -0700 eDave
Schismatrix, Bruce Sterling, Consider Phlebas, Use of weapons, Player of games, Ian m Banks, Time considered as a helix of semi precious stones, Samuel r Delaney, and the short story collections 'untouched by human hands', Robert Sheckley, 'Heatseeker', John Shirley and Bruce Sterling's 'mechanist/shaper'.

all great, all show what sf/scifi/fantastika/speculative fiction can be in the hands of masters. ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=97073#Comment_97073 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=97073#Comment_97073 Fri, 31 Oct 2008 17:40:14 -0700 Kradlum Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=97078#Comment_97078 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=97078#Comment_97078 Fri, 31 Oct 2008 18:05:03 -0700 mlpeters I haven't read any Burroughs except the first three or four each from his Tarzan and John Cater of Mars books, so I don't know about Venus (Carson of Venus, right? The one Kaluta drew for comics?), but Deja Thoris pretty much ran around Barsoom (Mars) naked. The metal bikinis were an invention of editors and cover painters to get around the nudity.

That one guy I think Kosmopolit, cited from the OED -- the one from the 1983 definition -- sounds a bit condescending about some of the genres he attempted to pin down. Genres are fluid creatures and their shallow areas can hide unexpected depths and vice versa. ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=97091#Comment_97091 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=97091#Comment_97091 Fri, 31 Oct 2008 19:15:37 -0700 arau
Have not been reading as much as I would like recently but Ken MacLeod's Star Fraction, and Pushing Ice by Alastair Reynolds both stuck with me. In a fit of nostalgia I also re-read The Stars My Destination which has held up very well despite its age. ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=97099#Comment_97099 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=97099#Comment_97099 Fri, 31 Oct 2008 20:48:10 -0700 Ferburton Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=97662#Comment_97662 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=97662#Comment_97662 Mon, 03 Nov 2008 09:21:08 -0800 wooden ghosts

i'd suggest anything by greg egan. he used to regularly break my head. and he has a new novel out this year, which is good news.

Yay for Greg Egan. I just found his short stories collection Luminous in a box today, and re-read "The Planck Dive" (readable online, in full, here) which is slightly too much for my brain to follow, and therefore I love it. ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=294915#Comment_294915 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=294915#Comment_294915 Tue, 17 May 2011 19:15:04 -0700 Foamhead
I read a book as a pretty young kid which I can remember neither the title or author. The plot centred on characters mysteriously becoming suspended as "silver statues" for a period of time, "unfreezing", seeing how the world has changed before returning to their silver statue state, repeatedly for an increasingly long time over billions of years.

I know it's a long shot to hope this might ring a bell with anyone but the ideas of the story have stuck with me for 30-plus years even if the specific, useful details have long since faded. I've been trying to rediscover the book for years, with no luck. ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=294917#Comment_294917 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=294917#Comment_294917 Tue, 17 May 2011 19:32:53 -0700 hellospaceboy Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=294918#Comment_294918 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=294918#Comment_294918 Tue, 17 May 2011 19:52:43 -0700 DavidLejeune Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=297911#Comment_297911 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=297911#Comment_297911 Sun, 12 Jun 2011 21:40:32 -0700 imaginarypeople Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=297920#Comment_297920 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=297920#Comment_297920 Sun, 12 Jun 2011 23:46:29 -0700 Talesin
"It is the year 1992. Paul Heisenberg, guru and leader of a new religion combining faith with metaphysics, freezes into a deep trance whilst on stage in front of 80,000 people. He appears to have turned into a silver statue. Where has he gone? Will he return, and if so, when? Thousands of his followers find a way to make "the jump" and follow him into the stream of time. For his strange state is not so much a trance, as a form of time travel! Unfortunately the time jumps cannot be controlled, and the jumpers wake up at widely varying times. Heisenberg's name becomes a legend, as people expect him to wake up and put the world to rights"

edited ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=297921#Comment_297921 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=297921#Comment_297921 Sun, 12 Jun 2011 23:47:32 -0700 Talesin Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=297937#Comment_297937 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=297937#Comment_297937 Mon, 13 Jun 2011 04:15:51 -0700 Foamhead One of the covers definitely triggered some decades-old feeling of begrudging recollection. (Jesus, I was a pre-teen when I originally read this.)

I'd been Googling, in one form or another, to try and find this book since before Warren landed and soiled the fresh and shiny tubes, to no avail. Even (too superficially, obviously) glanced through B Stableford's back catalogue a couple of times but never spotted it.

Now comes the easy bit: finding a copy.

Cheers fella. ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=297949#Comment_297949 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=297949#Comment_297949 Mon, 13 Jun 2011 06:37:51 -0700 Vornaskotti
I'll have to second the vote to Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars Trilogy. As someone said earlier, the characterizations are not that good, but the books are just bursting with ideas and I had to keep my iPhone with the WikiPedia open on my nightstand when reading it, there were so many interesting concepts to check.

Some stuff that hasn't been mentioned as far as I can tell:

Larry Niven: Protector
Poul Anderson: Tau Zero
Hal Clement: Mission of Gravity

I have a huge soft spot for the kind of early scifi where the writer took a scientific idea and wove a story around it, to explain it. ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=298015#Comment_298015 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=298015#Comment_298015 Mon, 13 Jun 2011 16:22:39 -0700 Greasemonkey Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=298035#Comment_298035 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=298035#Comment_298035 Mon, 13 Jun 2011 19:24:50 -0700 oddbill Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=298043#Comment_298043 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=298043#Comment_298043 Mon, 13 Jun 2011 20:38:26 -0700 Fan THE FOREVER WAR could definitely be put under the hard sf rubric.
Really? That seemed to me to be more of a romance: a love story.
In fact, 'hard' is dubious in two ways:
It's fiction
It's for (and often by) non-scientists
It's written in the past (three: it's dubious in *three* ways)
It typically has some kind of human or social interest (four: four ways... let me start again).
No, really, Boss: what's your (partial) list of best or good SF; hard, or otherwise?
[And I'm not sure I agree with "Yeah, I'm of the age where "sci-fi" is anathema" - when we were young we had Heinlein, Clarke, Dickson, Van Vogt, ...].
I suggest: Neal Stephenson. ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=298047#Comment_298047 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=298047#Comment_298047 Mon, 13 Jun 2011 20:53:25 -0700 Talesin Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=298065#Comment_298065 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=298065#Comment_298065 Tue, 14 Jun 2011 00:31:55 -0700 Vornaskotti Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=298070#Comment_298070 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=298070#Comment_298070 Tue, 14 Jun 2011 02:57:08 -0700 Joshua Pantalleresco
Old School:

Anything Robert Heinlein Pre Stranger In A Strange Land. Particular Favorites of mine include "Puppet Masters", "Starship Troopers", "Moon Is A Harsh Mistress" and "Double Star".

More Current:

Edge by Thomas Blackstone
CJ Cheryhl
Infoquake by David Lous Edelman
Greg Egan is genius. Read Diaspora.
The Reality Dysfunction Trilogy by Peter F. Hamilton
M. John Harrison still writes some amazing Hard Sci Fi stuff. Anything from him in ANY era is good for that matter.
Rogue Harvest by Danita Maslan
Kim Stanley Robinson Mars has been Mentioned.
Melinda N. Snodgrass is quite good as well.
Any of the Charles Stross Supreme Intelligence verse books (Accelerando, Iron Sunrise etc)
Titan, Wizard and Demon by John Varley
Vernor Vinge

I think that's a good start. ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=298158#Comment_298158 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=298158#Comment_298158 Tue, 14 Jun 2011 21:39:06 -0700 scs Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=298177#Comment_298177 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=298177#Comment_298177 Wed, 15 Jun 2011 02:30:28 -0700 BettyBoolean author but they are works of speculative fiction all the same. Phlogiston anyone?

for me the Dragons of Pern books of Anne McCaffrey are 'harder' than Asimov s Foundation in that the vision of a colonial future offered seems more plausible , i.e. a long forgotten outpost that has forgotten its own origins rather than Galaxy spanning Empires modeled on a Medieval world view. The social aspect of Foundation is absolutely risible. Female characters in Foundation? There is one. Female characters of any consequence? Zero. Surely in the 1950s it was becoming evident that women would occupy prominent roles in the future? The cigar chomping male technocrats of Foundation seem to belong to the staff rooms of 1940s academia rather than the corridors of power in our Imperial Galactic destiny. To ignore the societal in this way invalidates any claim the author makes for the science. Foundation is all about the ascendancy of science, the moral and intellectual superiority of the scientists I find offensive. the people that gave us Chernobyl, Fukishima , and Three Mile Island are going to shape the destiny humanity?
As to the scientific content, Asimov seems all Flash Gordon to me.

what i'm saying is Asimovs Foundation totally sucks teh donkeys balz

Well anyhow, I digress. . . read Philip K Dick J G Ballard Iain M Banks ]]> Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=299628#Comment_299628 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=299628#Comment_299628 Mon, 27 Jun 2011 18:52:45 -0700 True.Thomas Hard sci-fi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=299647#Comment_299647 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=1268&Focus=299647#Comment_299647 Tue, 28 Jun 2011 05:53:01 -0700 Denari
Going by Warren's rules, EMBASSYTOWN is soft sci fi in as much as it deals with language, conceptual thought, social anthropology and [SPOILERS] –

– a huge addiction epidemic. He also has his own version of FTL (Immersing or the Immer) which roots it in space opera territory to my mind. Frankly you should just bloody read it because it's beautiful.

I wish I liked Hard SF, but I've always been more fascinated by people and relationships than machines and physics.

Last thing: Richard Morgan's ALTERED CARBON is great. Super violent, neo noir, hard boiled hard core. Not Hard SF I'm afraid, but loads of fun. ]]>