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  1.  (1544.1)
    Don't really take that as a given myself. And the above mentioned Gurren Lagenn, Denno Coil or current Spice and Wolf come to mind. Of those you really need to see Denno Coil (if you have not), Warren.
  2.  (1544.2)
    Sigh, mobile device failure. And user failure I assume.
  3.  (1544.3)
    As above, was not getting proper feedback I had posted. Damn slow ass EDGE. Here let me find a clip of Denno Coil to fill the space.



    Anyway, its what Lain was for virtual reality back in the day, only for augmented reality. With better story structure to boot. And of course I have er...not seen it. No. Cough.
  4.  (1544.4)
    Are we allowing for the fact that the anime industry hasn't turned out anything worth watching in a few years?

    I'd name a few titles, but I can't be bothered to think right now. It does seem that the ratio of good to bad is getting worse, but then I'm not looking as hard as I used to. It's always been the case that you have to dig through cliche-ridden dross in order to find the good stuff. Now that anime is more widely available I guess that's doubly true.
  5.  (1544.5)
    I thought Gurren Lagann was retarded, and that it only stood out because the rest of the field was worse. And even the trailer for Denno Coil shows it up for what it is, a diluted mishmash of three other shows without the punch of any of them. And I also think both shows reflect the troubles in the anime business, as they both represent a failure to innovate and a failure of nerve. As for Wolf And Spice...



    ..yeah, I'm going to pass, actually.
  6.  (1544.6)
    I'd name a few titles, but I can't be bothered to think right now. It does seem that the ratio of good to bad is getting worse, but then I'm not looking as hard as I used to.

    I've got to admit, scrolling through Tokyotosho and doing the googling is getting pretty depressing.
  7.  (1544.7)
    And even the trailer for Denno Coil shows it up for what it is, a diluted mishmash of three other shows without the punch of any of them.


    I really think your underestimating Denno Coil, but if certainly if does not work for you, it does not. I do stand by the fact its much stronger then you give credit.
    And yes, Spice and Wolf has a wolf girl (well god), I know. But the underlying theme is old gods, the church and the nature of medieval business instead of people throwing magic at each other.

    I am curious, what would you consider the last show you felt had balls?
  8.  (1544.8)
    Maybe these titles might cheer you up if you haven't come across them? Not sure if these came out in the last few years or not, but I've been watching them during that time. Some I can only vouch for the quality of the first few episodes though.

    Shigurui
    Mononoke
    Tekkon Kinkreet
    The Girl Who Leapt Through time
    Mushishi
    Bokurano
    Fantastic Children
    Byousoku 5cm Story
    Sayanora Zetsubou Sensei
    Princess Arete
    Kemonozume
    Genius Party (coming soon I think)

    I ought to just keep a list somewhere.
    EDIT: I also just remembered that after years of avoiding The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya, I decided to see what all the fuss is about, and enjoyed myself immensely from beginning to end.
  9.  (1544.9)
    Sayanora Zetsubou Sensei and Zoku Sayanora Zetsubou Sensei are fantastic.

    Lucky Star was great if you like that sort of thing too.
  10.  (1544.10)
    I am curious, what would you consider the last show you felt had balls?

    Well, in terms of anime that an adult wouldn't be embarrassed or trepanned by: Paranoia Agent. Mushishi (a manga first, of course). A couple of others.

    Paul, I loved Tekkonkinkreet right up to the last 25 minutes or so.
  11.  (1544.11)
    Well, in terms of anime that an adult wouldn't be embarrassed


    Hah, I am sure you are well aware, in my case, I have no shame at all in my taste.

    Paranoia Agent


    Rather liked Paranoia Agent myself, though its the opening that sticks with me. I have not seen Mushishi.

    For those who have not seen it:

    • CommentAuthorpi8you
    • CommentTimeMar 25th 2008 edited
     (1544.12)
    That's really not what Spice and Wolf's about, honest. Fanservice is minimal(though fanart is bountiful) in the show, its a ~18th-19th century story about merchants and economics, though that's starting to play second fiddle to the dialogue and extremely well done character performances.

    On top of the Hot Blooded characters, the thing that I really liked about Gurren Lagann is that it moves, compressing what could have easily been a three or four season giant robot/space opera show into 27 episodes.

    On top of some very clever virtual space bits, Dennou Coil's got Miyazaki levels of charm and characters going for it, and the quality just keeps going up as the show goes on.

    Seconding Mononoke, Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei(though quite meta at times), and Bokura no, and adding in Baccano(multiple timelines woven together, immortal mobsters, awesome soundtrack and action), Seirei no Moribito(excellent spear-fu, Kenji Kawaii soundtrack, and a child I didn't want to smack around), and Ghost Hound. There's also the upcoming Real Drive that looks really good, a new Macross, and one or two others I'm not thinking of. Its always worthwhile to pay attention for Studio 4C's shorts.

    That's not to say the pickings are all good by any means though, there's a lot of dross, alot of which ties back to my earlier comment of companies hyperfocusing on specific fetishes that the hardcore will spend piles of money on.

    Edit: @JTraub - No kidding, easily one of my favorite openings ever.
  12.  (1544.13)
    That's really not what Spice and Wolf's about, honest.


    Oh yes, well I will happily defend Spice and Wolf too as you saw; but I can see why Warren's reaction was negative. And considering the nature of so much Anime, its a reaction that makes sense, I just think is misapplied in this case.
    • CommentAuthorpi8you
    • CommentTimeMar 25th 2008
     (1544.14)
    Oh yes, well I will happily defend Spice and Wolf too as you saw

    Heh, actually I'd missed seeing that, slipped into the Denno defense as it were. But still, a very valid statement on the state of the industry. The glut of visual novels/eroge-turned-anime doesn't help either :|
    •  
      CommentAuthorliquidcow
    • CommentTimeMar 26th 2008
     (1544.15)
    I ought to check out some of these shows that people are mentioning, haven't watched any new anime for a while except for a couple of movies. I'm surprised that Warren would like Paranoia Agent but not the ending of Tekkonkinkreet, since they basically do the same thing, i.e. descend into psychobabble nonsense. A lot of anime does that.

    I don't know whether this streaming business will be the death of the DVD market as such, I think there's a section of the market made up of people who don't closely follow anime and just pick up stuff from HMV that looks interesting. Whenever I browse the anime in the shops I always find it rather depressing to see the amount of derivative shite in there. I gather that this is the stuff that sells the most and that the more intelligent shows like Paranoia Agent tend to just not be in stock even though they do exist on DVD. It's the same with Tokyopop, they seem to be aiming at a teenage market of people who are just getting into 'that manga stuff with the big eyes', hence they'll have shelves and shelves of the latest romantic comedy/giant robot clones, and one volume of Lone Wolf and Cub, leaving the more serious reader to order stuff in or go to the internet.

    There's also the value of word of mouth, especially in a market as vast as anime. If you can stream any new anime out of the hundreds and hundreds that are released every year, how are you going to choose? It might take a while before you hear that a show is worth seeing, by which point it might be out on DVD. And don't forget that people just like to own stuff on DVD. The same with music. People like to own a physical copy and I don't think that's going to go away.
    • CommentAuthorpi8you
    • CommentTimeMar 26th 2008
     (1544.16)
    @liquidcow - Just to be clear, we're not looking for streaming to be the death of the DVD market, we're looking for it to try and save the market by providing a legitimate way to view the shows before the DVDs are available as an alternative to fansubs.
  13.  (1544.17)
    I'm surprised that Warren would like Paranoia Agent but not the ending of Tekkonkinkreet, since they basically do the same thing, i.e. descend into psychobabble nonsense.

    PARANOIA AGENT underpinned it a lot better. When it came, it was expected and fitted with the rest of the piece. With TEKKONKINKREET they didn't sell it half as well. It creaks when the super bad guys turn up, but just about holds. And then it's all I CAN HAS ID MONSTER MOAR SPACE PLZ and then an ending that has no basis in logic at all.
  14.  (1544.18)
    Just to be clear, we're not looking for streaming to be the death of the DVD market, we're looking for it to try and save the market by providing a legitimate way to view the shows before the DVDs are available as an alternative to fansubs.


    Right, its a means for the "have it NOW"crowd to support the production and then buy a cheaper DVD latter. Right now the tension is between a 1) struggling DVD market and essentially free downloads in Japan/a time delayed DVD market and free downloads in the US.
  15.  (1544.19)
    @Warren Ellis,

    The very end of the movie was tacked on by the director and doesn't appear in the original manga as far as I remember (which also handles the craziness a bit better, being even more odd than the movie all the way through). Maybe you'd enjoy it more if you haven't tried already? On that note, Blue Spring (also by Taiyo matsumoto) is one of the best manga I've read recently :) (I know it's been out for a while).

    I think the TekkonKinkreet movie's problem might have been that it based so many of its settings on real places, and (although stunningly beautiful - I have the bg painting artbook to drool over), the paintings were so painstakingly realistic for the first portions of the movie that all the crazy buildings and the theme park just seem a little out of place. The real/imagined parts of the city blend a bit better with Matsumoto's loose lines and surreal style.
  16.  (1544.20)
    Interesting wrinkle in the nature of the market, a friend of mine was pointing something out.

    Something we are seeing more and more of: After TV version airs studios who go back, and not only fix frames as they have always done (a common practice), but now actually add key frames for the DVD release. That is the TV animation is entirely unfinished to save money.

    From Gurren Laggen, DVD release on the right:



    Edit: went and hosted a smaller version so as to not take up a mile of screen space.