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    • CommentAuthorJiveKitty
    • CommentTimeMar 16th 2010
     (1740.61)
    Thanks. I will check this stuff out and look at prices and availability.
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      CommentAuthorFinagle
    • CommentTimeMar 16th 2010
     (1740.62)
    Depending on quantity, strict legality and so on, Somebody Who Isn't Me might be willing to purchase bulk piracetam and mail it overseas. SWIM gets a steep discount on shipping on certain Amazon items (Amazon Prime, check it out for U.S. folks) and have been meaning to start picking up the bulk piracetam powder.
    • CommentAuthorJiveKitty
    • CommentTimeMar 18th 2010
     (1740.63)
    Looks like I will be waiting until next month when I return to Wellington to check prices out. The small town I'm currently (very temporarily it's hoped) living in doesn't have anything as far as I can figure. Oh well, I can still get good beer.
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      CommentAuthorcelan
    • CommentTimeMar 23rd 2010
     (1740.64)
    I read Ward Dean's book about 15 years ago and have tried many of the one's he recommends. I like taking piracetam (or it's analogues) with centrophenoxine. Hydergine doesn't quite agree with me at standard dosages. I think if I had to only take one it would be the centrophenoxine as it seems to provide a more vitamin-like boost to cognition.
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      CommentAuthorFinagle
    • CommentTimeMar 23rd 2010
     (1740.65)
    @celan - Interesting, I hadn't run across that one in the various Internet forums I'd been perusing.

    I'm still tinkering with the stack. After a couple of weeks of the mix I posted above, I've decided the vinpocetine may have been hitting my immune system too hard, and have cut that out for the time being, and am taking a week or two off of the piracetam as I've heard it is best to cycle it out every few weeks. Still maintaining the choline, huperzine, fish oil, and have added a Super B-complex +C back in now that I've also laid off the 5-HTC.

    Also was finding myself feeling a bit stretched and shaky at the end of the day, so have added in a dose of kava kava extract two to three times per day, and just recently received an order of kratom, which is one of those popular traditional street herbals with an effect analogous to betel nut and nicotine - both mildly stimulating and relaxing at the same time.

    The current stack seems less dramatic in effect but more maintainable. I'm going to hold steady on that until I run low on the choline, then try upgrading to some of the premium blends - Neurostim-C + Alpha GPC, and Oxiracetam, if I don't divert into trying the centrophenoxine.

    *Something* I've changed up in the last week, though, has had one dramatic effect - my intensity of dreaming has gone way up, to the point of having some difficulty waking up fully. Normally I'm a very minimal dreamer, at least in terms of recall, and I was expecting to see a dreaming boost with the 5-HTC. But cutting that and the dopamine product out and adding in the kava kava and kratom have left me feeling the last couple nights like I've dreamt a small mini-series each night. I can't honestly say yet whether that's actually useful or not. I got similar effects from melatonin and wound up cutting it out for that reason.
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      CommentAuthorcelan
    • CommentTimeMar 23rd 2010
     (1740.66)
    @Finagle
    Interesting. Kratom does not sound like something that I would go in for but to each their own. Betel Nut is an anti-parasitic in Chinese Medicine (Bing Lang) so that's how I think of it.
    I like New Chapter's Neurozyme for getting the basic Ginkgo/Huperzine/Gotu Kola/Ashwaganday/Bacopa combo. It's kinda pricey but most vitamins are way cheaper for me since I have access to practitioner pricing. Had I more time/money (as with most things, sigh) I would experiment more. I was thinking of giving sulbutiamine a go in the near future.
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      CommentAuthorcelan
    • CommentTimeMar 23rd 2010
     (1740.67)
    Also, did anyone already mention International Anti-aging Systems as a resource?
    However I realize this is one of those odd instances where it is better to be in the US, as far as importing is concerned.
    Also these guys have some of the same products:Smart Drugs
    Also, slightly off topic, for those who might want to do more drastic things with their consciousness: Shamanic Extracts
    I'm sure most Whitechapelers are bright enough to know that anything they do with this info is at their own risk. =)
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      CommentAuthorFinagle
    • CommentTimeMar 23rd 2010 edited
     (1740.68)
    @celan - Well, overall, the kratom is also figuring into my caffeine reduction and eventual nicotine elimination plan. As I mentioned a few posts back, I have a pretty damn sluggish metabolism. In college, when doing the closing shift at a coffeeshop, I used to gulp down a 4x shot cappucino at about 1:30 a.m., get home at 2:30 and was still out like a light. Back when ephedrine ("white crosses", "trucker speed", etc) was legal and readily available in the States, about 15 years ago, I used to eat it by the handful while doing long-distance driving. After the demise of that and most ephedra/mau huang products, I discovered Red Bull, and eventually got to the point where I needed two sugar-free Rockstars to even get going in the morning.

    Kratom provides a little somethin'-somethin' in the mix, and so far seems to do so without elevated blood pressure, heart rate, etc, and the same sort of overall quick mental sharpening, but also relaxation, I get now from a cig.
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      CommentAuthorcelan
    • CommentTimeMar 23rd 2010
     (1740.69)
    @Finagle
    That makes sense for you then. I'm more the super-sensitive type. Have to have my caffeine before 3PM or else major insomnia. (I've been favoring the Function Drinks Alternative Energy as my caffeine delivery device.)
  1.  (1740.70)
    http://www.webmd.com/balance/stress-management/tc/kava-topic-overview
    I take kava kava tea on occasion for bad days, and while it does seem to help, I've been warned by folks to take it in moderation and not as a daily thing, as it seems to be able to mes up your liver, and I've heard of it causing upset stomach if being used for prolonged periods.

    Anyone notice any negative effects from their regimen of brain boosters, side effects ,etc?
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      CommentAuthorcelan
    • CommentTimeMar 23rd 2010 edited
     (1740.71)
    @Rootfireember
    Well, only negative side effect is economic...these things cost money.
    But the whole idea of the nootropics as a category/concept is that they have little or no side effects.
    Major issue is that mixing them means you may need to adjust the dose based on their synergy and as someone mentioned earlier the -racetam class of nootropics, while extremely safe and well-researched, requires you to simultaneously supplement with some kind of choline or risk getting a headache.
    • CommentAuthorjzellis
    • CommentTimeMar 25th 2010
     (1740.72)
    I've had good results from piracetam. But the really amazing results I've had were on my dad.

    My (step)dad's a great guy, but he's not what you might call an intellectual dude. He's a talented blues piano player, but until I gave him piracetam, he'd only read maybe a half-dozen books in his life, mostly in high school for class. Sort of a 70s party guy, you know the type.

    My mom and I started him on piracetam...and in the course of a year, he read all of Clive Cussler's novels. I'm aware Clive Cussler isn't exactly Proust, but for a guy who never read for pleasure in his entire life, it was nothing short of remarkable. He just loved reading.

    He doesn't take it anymore, and his reading habits have definitely slowed, but he's still reading the occasional book.

    It's pretty conclusive to me that piracetam caused his cognition to kick into high gear, and it's never really gone entirely back down.

    For what it's worth. :-)
  2.  (1740.73)
    @jzellis - Really glad to hear about your dad. Love hearing that kind of stuff.

    I've just started myself on piracetam and DMEA as of yesterday as an experiment more than anything else. Documenting it all here in case folks are interested, but if something big seems to happen (or at the end of my experiment, in sixty days) I'll post here in the thread. As a little background, I'm a psychology student with an occupation-background in psychopharmacology as well as a pretty regular meditator, so I've got a pretty good handle on my cognitive processes and capabilities I think. I'm also not liable to blow stuff out of proportion or go all New-Age and announce the Second Coming of Cosmic Hippie Christ. You can expect pretty straight field notes from me.
  3.  (1740.74)
    OK, I've been re-reading through all this again, and I've questions for you lot.

    I've cognitive vision issues, as well as problems with convergence and focus and being crosseyed and whatnot. I've also got ADHD. I've only recently done research and found that the ADHD could be related to the vision issues. Adderol, the few times I've tried it, had a profound and calming effect on me. The only problem is that stimulants, while awesome for my brain, are pretty awful for my already knotted spasming body. Everyone's experiences here regarding piracetam seem very positive - especially Willowb100's, as her auditory processing disorder seems similar to my visual problems in my inability to see through the clutter of information.

    The lack of significant side effects is really appealing, as is the fact that it is neither a stimulant nor depressant. I actually don't want to be dependent on any sort of drug but the inability to think clearly is killing me, and I'd do absolutely anything if it would improve my vision. I am concerned though about the effect on the chemistry of someone with ADHD. I imagine there's a possibility that it might make my brain think faster in the wrong way, and end up leaving me more lost in a flurry of rapidfire thought and stimulation.

    Also, I was interested in the use of Marijuana as a nootropic. I keep coming across studies which state that moderate use of marijuana increases the neurological volume of the brain. It is also reportedly effective for ADHD, and I've discovered it works wonders for me. I end up in insomniac flurries of activity if I smoke too much, but using a one hitter two or three times a day makes for very productive days indeed.

    I'd smoked right before going to my Opthamologist recently. My crossed eyes, which had, months ago, turned towards each other when focusing at 14 degrees, now only turned in at 8 degrees.

    Unfortunately, I just don't have it in me anymore to have a lifestyle involving illegal drug use on a regular basis, and my doctor is rather against the notion of giving me Marinol.

    Basically, all this ramble is to ask: Does piracetam work for ADHD, and is it something I could ask a psychiatrist for? Are there other non-stimulant drugs in the same family that might be positive for my issues? Aaaaaand, how does marijuana play into the world of nootropics? Are ADHD people more sensitive to the effects of this class of drugs?
  4.  (1740.75)
    Does piracetam work for ADHD, and is it something I could ask a psychiatrist for?

    The best answer is maybe. It works well for me. But there aren’t a lot of ADHD studies with piracetam, and given how likely it is that any given ADHD diagnosis is incorrect it seems safe to treat what studies do exist with suspicion. I love piracetam, and it does help me focus and think, but I still find creating the right work environment works better than trying to focus on stuff I don’t want to do in an environment that’s full of distractions. You don’t need a psychiatrist to prescribe it—that’s not how the drug is controlled in the US—you just buy it online.

    As for marijuana, nobody really even knows what marijuana they’re smoking or what else is in it most of the time, and research-grade pot is shit. Some strains might work, some won’t. It interacts weirdly with other drugs. It could be spiked or adulterated with all kinds of stuff.
  5.  (1740.76)
    As for marijuana, nobody really even knows what marijuana they’re smoking or what else is in it most of the time, and research-grade pot is shit. Some strains might work, some won’t. It interacts weirdly with other drugs. It could be spiked or adulterated with all kinds of stuff.

    Well, yes - but only those obtaining it illegally. Medical marijuana is of various strains, bred for specific properties and recommended for different disorders. But yes, as far as my environment where I can't obtain such clean and legal weed, you are totally correct. This is further reason for me to not be willing to take the path of the pothead. Though, the illegality of it is making me terribly angry. I'd be growing it myself and drinking moderate amounts of milk tea otherwise.

    How trustworthy are these piracetam producing companies? I mean, is it made by the same companies that make herbal supplements (which have no proper oversight in the US)? Is there any quality control? Even if I CAN buy it online, I'd rather go through a psychiatrist, if possible. At least, while I have health coverage.
    • CommentAuthoratavistian
    • CommentTimeMay 2nd 2010 edited
     (1740.77)
    As a supplement, piracetam isn't regulated or evaluated by the FDA. Depending on who you go through, you're either getting the same quality from typical supplement companies or capsules filled with sand and melanine by some guy in China. (Okay, I'm kidding about the melanine, but you need to source your products out well. That's my point.)

    There've been a few studies regarding Piracetam and ADHD. And while all the ones I've read showed at least some improvement, they've been incredibly small, and mostly in juveniles. So there's no real scientific consensus on it all. I've heard anecdotes from parents and a few practitioners on both piracetam and DMEA/Choline improving behavioral and attentional symptoms, but I've got nothing scholarly to show ya, really. Some studies on mice and rats but not much in humans.

    The problem with maintenance treatments based on marijuana is that THC has a tendency, after chronic use, to switch the part of the brain that it's processed in for some people (possibly due to some ill-understood saturation effect). This can lead to cases where people who've had a good relationship with pot for years suddenly and regularly experience massive anxiety and paranoia when smoking up. Marinol tends to be a weak analog to pot based on the fact that Marinol's a single cannabinoid while most marijuana contains dozens of different cannabinoids. Marijuana has some fascinating neuroprotective functions that aren't totally understood yet but if we're ever allowed to get a handle on them I tend to think they'd change neuropharmacology significantly. A recent study on mice showed that THC prevented MDMA neurotoxicity, which created some minor buzz in psychotropic circles as far as coadministration of recreational drugs goes (the study is in the wonderfully open-access PLoS ONE journal if you want the full text).

    Edited to add: Marijuana doesn't usually qualify as a nootropic due to the amount of side-effects it can carry (depending on who you talk to, of course), doesn't act as much of a cognitive enhancer, and tends to increase sedation. It's kind of up for debate still, I suppose.
  6.  (1740.78)
    "This can lead to cases where people who've had a good relationship with pot for years suddenly and regularly experience massive anxiety and paranoia when smoking up."

    Wow. I have a friend who went through exactly that. After years of regularly smoking he suddenly, and without warning, had a severe panic attack to the point of passing out, and ever since hasn't been able to indulge.

    I'd asked my pain management doctor about Marinol as an alternative to the Morphine and Vicodin and Lyrica, but he declined. His reasoning was, even though it IS effective for spine/nerve pain, that there are drugs that are more effective, such as Methadone. Also, he told me that were he to give me Marinol, I would have the THC in my system, so when I was drug tested (which I am bi-monthly), I could have been smoking marijuana all month long and they'd not know. ... says the man who gives me Morphine without batting an eye.

    That delayed panic response... can it be avoided by switching to a very different strain?

    I've found these resources:

    Cannabinoid receptor stimulation is anti-inflammatory and improves memory in old rats.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17561311?dopt=Abstract

    Alzhiemers-
    http://www.jneurosci.org/cgi/content/abstract/25/8/1904
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4286435.stm
    http://www.webmd.com/alzheimers/news/20061006/marijuana-may-slow-alzheimers
    http://www.scripps.edu/news/press/080906.html

    Aging brain degeneration-
    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/11/081119120141.htm

    I suppose that's why I'm very curious as to it's effect on the chemically/neurologically different, like myself. Tourette's, OCD, Trichotillomania, and ADHD all run in my family, and my very OCD/ADHD mother has the same effect from Marijuana as I, being that she becomes more talkative, more active, and it will keep her awake and productive.

    Are there branches of nootropics that are more effective for the ADHD brain?
  7.  (1740.79)
    Are there branches of nootropics that are more effective for the ADHD brain?

    Even the efficacy of drugs that are made specifically to treat ADHD is generally poor. There are different kinds of ADHD and different kinds of people that create a lot of different responses, and to some extent nobody really knows how any of it works. It’s all just trial and error. If you’re really having trouble dealing with ADHD medication you’re probably better off reading up on ways to structure your life so that you can just manage your ADHD without medication. You don’t have to set yourself up for a lifetime of trial-and-error pharmacology and psychiatry just so you can be a regular white-collar office drone and not annoy people too much.
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      CommentAuthorcelan
    • CommentTimeMay 2nd 2010
     (1740.80)
    Does piracetam work for ADHD?

    I seem to recall that it is good for dyslexia which seems like it might be a related or comorbid condition...if I can track down the reference I'll post it.