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			<title>Whitechapel - Will space travel ever be truly feasible?</title>
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		<title>Will space travel ever be truly feasible?</title>
		<link>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=2145&amp;Focus=48578#Comment_48578</link>
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		<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 22:21:16 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>agentarsenic</author>
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			<![CDATA[ I'm no scientist and I'm sure some of the cracked eggheads here can fill in the blanks or mentally rape me for getting things wrong.<br /><br />From what I understand, even going outside of our own atmosphere is dangerous. Proton radiation holes out your spongy bone connectors and spacerocks the size of peas (but traveling at 20,000ft per second) can destroy your whole spacecraft. Further out from Earth there is even more dangerous radiation and bigger specs traveling faster to smash human space hopes.<br /><br />Then there's the issues of propulsion, speed, and time. Let's say there was some kind of miracle propulsion system that could move at a couple of miles a second. Since time is subjective, what would the travelers find when they came home from their ten year trip to God knows where?<br /><br />Does anyone see any viable future to getting off motherock and out into the cosmos? ]]>
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		<title>Will space travel ever be truly feasible?</title>
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		<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 22:43:35 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Val A Lindsay II</author>
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			<![CDATA[ If ever we start moving among the planets of our own solar system will be very telling as for conditions and hazards. Let's say for argument's sake we establish colonies on Jupiter's moons, Mars and/or start mining asteroids. We'll get a better idea on the hazards and difficulties to the whole affair then we do even now.<br /><br />I believe it will happen, to be sure. Mankind will need a whole different perspective on patience to make it happen, though. My guess is the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bussard_ramjet" >Bussard ramjet</a> will be the most likely candidate. A fairly large ship would be necessary also, I believe. Of course, these speculations are not my own.<br /><br />First things first; Let's get established on the moon. That'll make things easier and get the ball rolling... ]]>
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		<title>Will space travel ever be truly feasible?</title>
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		<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 22:57:23 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Walker James</author>
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			<![CDATA[ Space travel is one of the most ridiculous expenditures in the United states budget. Billions of dollars a year. For what? To blow up five to ten people in a tin can? The only good thing to go up there for is to build and maintain satellites.<br /><br />Is there water on the moon? A clean gasoline alternative? No. There are rocks. Lots of useless rocks.<br /><br />I don't think mankind will be around long enough to perfect interstellar travel. We can barely get to the moon without a hassle. What do we need a space station for? We need to spend that money on things that actually matter. ]]>
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		<title>Will space travel ever be truly feasible?</title>
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		<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 23:04:45 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>agentarsenic</author>
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			<![CDATA[ @Zombinoid<br /><br />I'm with you in the Mankind-Will-Never-See-Interstellar-Travel-Before-We-Self-Immolate rocketboat. ]]>
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		<title>Will space travel ever be truly feasible?</title>
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		<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 23:07:36 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Cyman</author>
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			<![CDATA[ @ Zombinoid: What if we find a way to run our cars on bleu cheese? Then the moon will be invaluable.<br /><br />And if we (Americans) can spend "$5,000/second on a war in Iraq" (Harry Reid on The Daily Show), then surely we (humanity as awhole) can afford to do some exploring. I think Clarke's idea of the space elevator could be useful... but maybe it's just me. ]]>
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		<title>Will space travel ever be truly feasible?</title>
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		<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 23:14:29 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>agentarsenic</author>
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			<![CDATA[ 2 Internets if someone can come up with a way to not get holed by superfast outerspace objects. That seems to limit exploration right there. ]]>
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		<title>Will space travel ever be truly feasible?</title>
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		<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 23:52:50 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>m1k3y</author>
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			<![CDATA[ what was that thing about the Russians building some LEO construction facility?<br /><br />crazy that those guys still seem to be winning all the prizes ]]>
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		<title>Will space travel ever be truly feasible?</title>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 00:05:22 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>agentarsenic</author>
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			<![CDATA[ @m1k3y<br /><br />Please you will be explaining to me this LEO, comrade. My acronym not so good, nyet. <br /><br />Is LEO construction facility the "spaceships built in space" thing that Russia wants to roll out after the International Exploitation Station is built? ]]>
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		<title>Will space travel ever be truly feasible?</title>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 00:14:41 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>James Cunningham</author>
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			<![CDATA[ If we don't go to space, we die as a species.  I'm not saying we'll make it, although I'd like to think we will, just that it's necessary.  People need more resources, there are infinite resources in space.  Therefore, we need space. ]]>
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		<title>Will space travel ever be truly feasible?</title>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 00:24:42 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>agentarsenic</author>
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			<![CDATA[ @James<br />Is this a feasible option though, going into space for resources?  If it does come to that it will be like early coal mining, the risks and physical effects are major.<br /><br />Robots can mine stuff, we don't necessarily have to go. ]]>
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		<title>Will space travel ever be truly feasible?</title>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 00:30:16 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Mike Matheson</author>
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			<![CDATA[ LEO = Low Earth orbit<br /><br />As far as the feasibility of space travel goes, I see the main obstacle being the sheer mind-fucking expanse of space.  Takes you forever to get anywhere... that and the limits of your reaction mass. ]]>
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		<title>Will space travel ever be truly feasible?</title>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 00:54:03 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>rough night</author>
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			<![CDATA[ The dying as a species issue also comes into play when you consider the possibility (low, but over time inevitable) of extinction level events. They do happen occasionally, and so far we have nowhere to go if it happens again. If humans are to survive long term we need other options, and other places where we can store resources and grow food. None of the options we're looking at right now seem real comfortable (mars and the moon most likely) but it would be possible to make at least temporary habitations on either one, to live in at least long enough to wait out the after-effects of an astroid strike or supervolcano. Anything is possible so long as we start at the beginning and keep going, and mars and the moon look like the beginning to me. ]]>
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		<title>Will space travel ever be truly feasible?</title>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 01:05:28 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Walker James</author>
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			<![CDATA[ <blockquote >And if we (Americans) can spend "$5,000/second on a war in Iraq" (Harry Reid on The Daily Show), then surely we (humanity as awhole) can afford to do some exploring. I think Clarke's idea of the space elevator could be useful... but maybe it's just me.</blockquote><br /><br />I could afford an eightball of meth right now. Does that mean I should go buy one?<br /><br /><blockquote >If we don't go to space, we die as a species. I'm not saying we'll make it, although I'd like to think we will, just that it's necessary. People need more resources, there are infinite resources in space. Therefore, we need space.</blockquote><br /><br />Can you give me one example of a valuable space resource? The answer is not rocks. ]]>
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		<title>Will space travel ever be truly feasible?</title>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 01:14:55 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>James Cunningham</author>
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			<![CDATA[ One example- energy.  How much do you want?<br /><br />Another example- zero-g manufacturing.<br /><br />That's two off the top of my head, and I'm not a scientist.  Please note the complete lack of rocks involved in the response. ]]>
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		<title>Will space travel ever be truly feasible?</title>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 01:27:55 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Rachæl Tyrell</author>
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			<![CDATA[ <blockquote >Zombinoid- <br />Can you give me one example of a valuable space resource? The answer is not rocks.</blockquote><br /><br />Not to be too "Ice Pirates" about our future, but...  <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/world/2003/world_forum/water/default.stm" >Water?<a >  <br /><br /><center ><img src="http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/world/03/water_popup/img/supply/main.gif" > <img src="http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/world/03/water_popup/img/use/main.gif" ></a></center><br /><br />Granted, one would hope that finding the means to process and cleanse water would be technologically easier and more cost effective than space travel...<br /><br />Or, if we don't make the leap to organic computers in the near future, silicone and other technology-metals will be under even heavier demand and significant world shortage.</a> ]]>
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		<title>Will space travel ever be truly feasible?</title>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 02:06:39 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>rough night</author>
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			<![CDATA[ Growing food is earth orbiting greenhouse satellites also seems like a useful endeavor for space travel.<br /><br />As for the whole "robots could do it" thing, I partially agree, but you'll always need a few people there for robot maintenance and general troubleshooting. Some things just can't be done right from thousands of miles away. ]]>
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		<title>Will space travel ever be truly feasible?</title>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 03:02:12 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Jehrot</author>
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			<![CDATA[ @agentarsenic Build a craft superfast outerspace objects are scared of? ]]>
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		<title>Will space travel ever be truly feasible?</title>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 03:13:34 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Jon Wake</author>
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			<![CDATA[ @Zombinoid<br /><br />This is an argument I hear crop up from time to time.   The Pragmatism Doctrine is something like "why fund what has no use for humankind?"<br /><br />The answer is that we don't know what will and won't result in benefits for the human species.   The egg-headed electromagnetism of the 1800's directly resulted in the Radio, and how many thousands of lives have been saved by an Emergency Broadcast?   What will spacetravel yield?  We have no idea, and I find it a bit myopic to deny future generations the potential benefits (and yes, trials) because in our limited imagination we can think of no short term gains.<br /><br />More profoundly, we are humans.  We are the most expansionist species since the bacteria, we spread and explore because it is in our bones.  It is a desire that we cannot deny, and denying it will lead to ennui and apathy.   Not might.  It will.   In many ways, it has.   We need somewhere to <strong >go</strong>.   <br /><br />There are problems.  Some are solvable (space debris and radiation are engineering problems), some require re-thinking our view of travel (space is quite big), and some just require political Will (manned Mars mission).   I'm sure you're asking: "Why?  When children are starving and guns and murder and rape and all the rest?"<br /><br />Because one day some kid will look up at the sky and say "We Went to the Stars."  Not 'they'.  We. ]]>
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		<title>Will space travel ever be truly feasible?</title>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 03:35:40 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Paul Duffield</author>
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			<![CDATA[ @ Zombanoid also<br /><br />Watch "Wings of Honneamise", and see if that changes your argument. It's basically a flim about exactly that sort of apathy facing a failing space program in an alternative present, and it treats it all very even handedly. ]]>
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		<title>Will space travel ever be truly feasible?</title>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 03:40:50 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Wilf</author>
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			<![CDATA[ @Jehrot <blockquote >Build a craft superfast outerspace objects are scared of? </blockquote><br /><br />Chuck Norris shaped shuttle? ]]>
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		<title>Will space travel ever be truly feasible?</title>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 03:49:43 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>m1k3y</author>
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			<![CDATA[ space elevators seem good, but wasn't it shown that they won't be people friendly due to the high radiation once you get beyond a certain point.<br />would surely work for goods and robots though.<br /><br />Bruce Sterling said a while ago to watch China and India kick the space-race back into gear as their economies ramp up.<br />Maybe post-Olympics this will happen?<br /><br />and yes, I'm of the Gaian persuasion and think that as the brains of the planet it's our job to take life off Earth and spread it as far as we can.<br /><br />plus the whole redundancy thing is a strong argument if you put your Long Now hat on. ]]>
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		<title>Will space travel ever be truly feasible?</title>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 05:20:28 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>hobofood</author>
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			<![CDATA[ @Zombinoid<br /><blockquote >Is there water on the moon? A clean gasoline alternative? No. There are rocks. Lots of useless rocks.</blockquote><br /><br />Yes, there is water on the moon, not that we need it. There is also a clean gasoline alternative, it's called Helium 3 and it's pretty much the king of all fuels. It produces no pollutants, it's really energy rich and there is about a million tons of it on the moon.<br /><br />Now, 1 million tons may not sound much until you are told that 25 tons can fuel the United States for a year. Now, that's just the moon and it's probable that Helium 3 is available on a whole load of the rocks in the Kuiper belt - that's the ring of rocks just out past neptune. Some of the rocks in the Kupier belt are also diamonds or other precious (and useful) metals. There is more in the way of natural resources in the Kuiper belt alone than anywhere else, and I haven't even started thinking about Titan, which is little more than a single oil field in a handy moon-sized package.<br /><br />So the plan is to build up the ISS, use that as a launch pad to the moon, then use our moon base as a launchpad to Mars and the Kuiper belt. ]]>
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		<title>Will space travel ever be truly feasible?</title>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 05:26:53 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>hobofood</author>
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			<![CDATA[ @mik3y<br /><blockquote >space elevators seem good, but wasn't it shown that they won't be people friendly due to the high radiation once you get beyond a certain point.<br />would surely work for goods and robots though.</blockquote><br /><br />Yep, loads of Ionising radiation that will fry pretty much any organic matter that we send up. Unless of course we go really fast or we build some kind of shielding. The biggest problem with the space elevator is actually the counterweight. We will need something really massive out in space, orbiting, for the other end of the elevator to latch onto. Somebody once suggested pulling a suitably large meteor into geosynchronous orbit and using that, with the added benefit that it would then be easier to mine the meteor. ]]>
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		<title>Will space travel ever be truly feasible?</title>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 08:07:42 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Kosmopolit</author>
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			<![CDATA[ I have a lot to say on this topic but I don't currently have time to say it.<br /><br />For the moment, I'll confine myself to this: it'd be helpful if both sides of thsi debate admitted that their motives are largely emotional.<br /><br />People (like me) who think that space travel is desirable and/or necessary can cite figures about the economic return but really let's face it,  we'd be advocating for space travel even if the economic returns to date  were crap. For us, its about the long-term survival of the species and about the fundamental human need to expand and explore.<br /><br />People (like Zombinoid) who think that space travel is undesirable or unnecessary object<em > in principle </em>to spending money on space exploration (or that's how it seems to me anyway, I welcome correction). The argument, as I understand it, is that given the immediate pressing needs here on Earth, spending money on space is simply unjustified. You can argue that NASA's budget is less than 1% of US Federal government expenditure but that's largely irrelevant. If the expenditure were 0.0001%, it'd still be unjustified.<br /><br />I could (and when I have more time probably will) go through and argue that space travel has produced enormous practical benefits here on Earth but I doubt that I'll change anyone's mind. ]]>
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		<title>Will space travel ever be truly feasible?</title>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 08:11:05 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>orwellseyes</author>
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			<![CDATA[ <em >Space travel is one of the most ridiculous expenditures in the United states budget. Billions of dollars a year. For what? To blow up five to ten people in a tin can? The only good thing to go up there for is to build and maintain satellites.</em><br /><br />"Why do you want to sail all the way to the west. Millions of Pesetas for what? So a few Milanese can go drown themselves in a rickety boat. The only thing the sea is good for is trade and fishing"<br /><br />Fuck. That. Noise.<br /><br />I'll give you that NASA as it sits now is a dinosaur. The Space Shuttle is an outmoded vehicle, that we should be focused on better orbit vehicles, that the ISS is, at best, a nerd terrarium. Baby steps, not bold steps. <br /><br />I say triple that budget, make space exploration a number one priority. Get us off this rock, get us to Mars, mining the asteroid belt, get us to Io and Europa. Explore the outer solar system in proper detail. I want human in orbit around Neptune. Show me the storms of Jupiter. Save this pale blue dot with technologies gleened from exploring all those other colorful dots in the sky. <br /><br />Frankly, we got scared. I was a kid when Challenger exploded. A whole generation looked as space flight as a good way to get detonated at high altitude. NASA has been so fucking worried about heat tiles and public perception of the "dangers" of space flight they've lost their guts.<br /><br />Look, people are going to die. Brave, smart men and women are going to lose their lives in terrible, awful ways. But they're doing it to take us from the cradle to the stars. Pioneers, explorers, adventurers, it's a big fucking risk. It's going to cost money. But here on earth we're blowing 1/2 a TRILLION dollars fighting a war so that we can create the perfect breeding ground for a civil war in a country that now hates us. How much did the pyramid at Giza cost? Did the hanging gardens of babylon go over-budget? I'll chip in a fiver to reach the stars. <br /><br />Strapping yourself to a missile pointed at the sky and going "Take me up" is fucking BALLS. It's the most daring, brilliant and human thing that we do. <br /><br />You want to reduce it to maintaining your cellphone service and making sure your google maps are good...Christ, what is wrong with you?<br /><br />Sorry, I can't be polite or rational in the face of that kind of thinking. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 08:39:22 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>jayverni</author>
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			<![CDATA[ <blockquote >Strapping yourself to a missile pointed at the sky and going "Take me up" is fucking BALLS. It's the most daring, brilliant and human thing that we do.<br /></blockquote><br /><br />AMEN ]]>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 09:03:30 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>stevewallace</author>
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			<![CDATA[ I was going to write something about how I feel the 'it's not helping me right now' thinking is a detriment to humanity and it's future. Orwellseyes, however, pretty much summed it up. Basically we'd already be a dead species, or at least a useless one, if we didn't have the forward thinkers who where trying crazy ass shit. We should be funding this sort of thing at far greater levels. We should be making it easier for kids to move into these fields. We should be better funding education as a whole so more kids have the knowledge and ability to forward think. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 09:03:51 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>purvision</author>
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			<![CDATA[ Space travel might well be desirable for a number of reasons. But often what people mean is inter-stellar travel, travelling to other stars. With our current technological limitaions, this isn't yet feasible. Popping through folds in space and 'warping' to places is at best theoretical and at worst fanticiful.  The nearest star, Proxima Centauri, would take 4.2 years to reach, travelling<em >at the speed of light</em>, which is just so way beyond our capabilities at this point. Cryogentics is also not yet an option for longer travels.<br /><br />What might really yield vast amounts of information about the universe would be the construction of a telescopic interferometer, preferably on the dark side of the Moon. It would make the Hubble info look like a secondgrade speller's cribsheet. Imagine being able to look at distant stars and see planets of earth size, in search of the next pale blue dot. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 09:41:22 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Alan Tyson</author>
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			<![CDATA[ However, our own solar system is already a wealth of unexplored and untapped potential - who knows, maybe we can find something out there, a new resource or a new technique or technology born from the environment of interplanetary exploration, that will allow us to travel to the stars. Even if it's not warp drive or wormholes or whatever, there's no reason to discount the possibility. As for more concrete benefits, if you think that amount of H3 on the moon is huge, imagine how much of that stuff could be floating around in the atmosphere of, oh, Jupiter? If the proportion of global mass to the amount of H3 on Jupiter compared to the moon was just 1%, there could still be enough H3 to fuel the entire planet for millions of years - no exaggeration, actual math.<br /><br />Aside from exploration and mining, colonization is another huge, huge reason to go back to space. I'm not talking about Martian geodomes or floating cities on Europa, as these are, at the moment, fantasies, but orbital colonies based on O'Neill Cylinders and Bernal Spheres are not only feasible with today's technology (they were feasible with the technology of the 1970s, really), they're much, much, much cheaper than terraforming efforts and trying to maintain an outpost on a hostile or dead planet.<br /><br />Also, consider the number of high-tech, diploma-requiring jobs an active space program would create. You're worried about the economy going down the tubes? Space programs create the same industrial boot-to-the-ass as major wars do - look what WWII did for the American economy, all tragedy aside. And with a space program, there's none of that pesky shooting and killing and bad PR. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 09:47:23 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Val A Lindsay II</author>
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			<![CDATA[ Having watched the space program collapse to its current state because of the bureaucracy it faces is just sad. The Space Race was one of the few products of the Cold war that had any continuing optimism to it. Sure, a few people wanted to get to the moon just to beat the Soviets, but I think it was the passion of those who believed in exploring the last great frontier that got us to the moon. Now NASA is full of a lot of bureaucrats itself, pandering to their own kind on Capitol Hill. It's no wonder we haven't gotten anywhere. <br /><br />I personally don't have much 'passion' about the space program as it has always seemed a completely obvious step for mankind to make; Advance or die off. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 10:02:05 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Verissimus</author>
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			<![CDATA[ Sun's exploding pretty soon. Only 5 billion years, give or take a billion.<br /><br />But in only one billion years time our star will become unstable. It will swell up, and we will not be able to live on this planet any longer. So sooner or later we need to emigrate.<br /><br />We need to GO, and since it's going to be a difficult journey, we have to start planning ASAP. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 10:22:54 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Winther</author>
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			<![CDATA[ You know when I knew <strong >Orbiter</strong> was going to be one of my favorite GN's, before even reading the first panel?<br /><br /><blockquote >This is a book about returning to space in the face of fear and adversity. It's a book about glory. About going back to space, because it's waiting for us, and it's where we're meant to be. We can't allow human space exploration to become our history.</blockquote><br /><br />A-Fucking-Men.<br /><br />I can't really say it any better than that. I'm not claiming to be logical about this. The potential for clean fuels and a solution to overpopulation and all the rest is great, but really, I just believe, with an almost religious fervor, that we need to do this. We just have to. It's that simple. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 10:25:16 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Rabbit</author>
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			<![CDATA[ @ orwellseyes : Your post made me pretty happy. It was inspiring on a space-related level, but also in general. Humanity probably SHOULD take more risks in a lot more areas. Even personally.<br /><br /><br />We waste a lot of time ho-ing and hum-ing over subjects and never getting anywhere. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 11:14:55 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Egon</author>
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			<![CDATA[ Doesn't the constant absence of gravity (specifically, Earth's) have some kind of effect on the body in the long run? Some kind of space version of Alzheimer's where the brain starts sending and receiving information incorrectly? That could lead to stuff like heart malfunctions and...<br /><br /><b ><i >SPACE   MADNESS!!!</b></i><br /><br />That would mean you need to create some kind of artificial gravity. At least that way we could continue traveling away from the ever expanding Sun. Of course my knowledge of space mostly comes from Star Trek and BSG, so take that for what it's worth. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 12:06:36 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>orwellseyes</author>
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			<![CDATA[ <em >That would mean you need to create some kind of artificial gravity. At least that way we could continue traveling away from the ever expanding Sun.</em><br /><br />Or genetic engineering to grow a person more suited for long-term space travel. Living in space isn't the goal though, it's minimizing the impact of time spent there.  <br /><br />Mars is about a year away. The longest single stay in space has been about 14 months. The guy, a russian, had some bone loss and other health issues, but nothing too awful.<br /><br />You get people on Mars and you're looking at a real step out into the wider solar system. The dream would be building things in Orbit, training and crewing up and Mars (or the moon) and heading into the deep.<br /><br />The things we don't know about the solar system past the Mars/Jupiter belt is just sad when you think about it. <br /><br />The world needs more people like Yuri Gagarin. First Human in space, died testing rocket planes.<br /><br /><img src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/19/Yuri_Gagarin_official_portrait.jpg/200px-Yuri_Gagarin_official_portrait.jpg" alt="" ><br /><br />I look at this portrait of that Russian Man-God and think "Not enough medals" ]]>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 12:18:54 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Egon</author>
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			<![CDATA[ But how much can you realistically cut down a spaceflight? Every time people start talking about going the speed of light or using worm holes, it's met with <em >"Yeah, that'd be nice, but..."</em> So do we need to just keep hoping planets? At some point we're going to have to travel more than just 14 months to get to the next sling shot. <br /><br />Other than funding and a Star Trek mindset, what are some other fundamental hurdles we need to get around? Do we send automated robots ahead of us to get started on building mini-stations for when we show up? How plausible is that with where we are now with technology? ]]>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 12:29:44 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Verissimus</author>
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			<![CDATA[ @Egon;<br /><br />good point. When traveling to other star systems (assuming there will not be any warp technology or wormholes) you need to take into account that it will probably take hundreds of years to reach your destination. Basically people will be born, live their life and die aboard your starship without ever setting foot on solid ground. Over such a long period of time every small problem will eventually grow into a huge problem. So the biggest challenge I think will not be the propulsion but building a starship which can keep the passengers safe and healthy life for such a long time. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 12:34:54 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>orwellseyes</author>
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			<![CDATA[ <em >At some point we're going to have to travel more than just 14 months to get to the next sling shot.</em><br /><br />By that point the bleeding edge technology of today will look like the 12th century. We're not going to Alpha Proximi any time soon, no. Planet hopping, as you call it, lets you build up tech and resources. <br /><br />Look at the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kardashev_scale" >Kardashev scale</a>. It's a ladder to climb. Getting from what we are now (a type zero civilization) to...Star Trek...is a hell of a thing to do.<br /><br />Now you could see jumps on that climb up. Say if FTL technology is discovered, zero-point energy or perhaps faerie dust that gives astronauts the power of love to fly...eh...sorry.<br /><br /><em >Other than funding and a Star Trek mindset, what are some other fundamental hurdles we need to get around? Do we send automated robots ahead of us to get started on building mini-stations for when we show up? How plausible is that with where we are now with technology?</em><br /><br />All plausible, just need the money and the will. We've got rovers running on Mars. Autonomous robotics are coming more and more online as a viable technology. <br /><br />Here's a thought. Making NASA and JPL completely open source. Invite in the dreamers and makers, make the challenge of manned spaceflight the challenge of this generation. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 12:42:57 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>StefanJ</author>
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			<![CDATA[ "There is also a clean gasoline alternative, it's called Helium 3 and it's pretty much the king of all fuels. It produces no pollutants, it's really energy rich and there is about a million tons of it on the moon."<br /><br />Wow, you're leaving out all sorts of information and making all sorts of assumptions. You make it sound like you can shovel the stuff into your fireplace and enjoy the warm toasty glow.<br /><br />He3 isn't a "gasoline alternative." It's a proposed fuel for fusion reactors. We don't <em >have</em> practical, energy-producing fusion reactors yet, and might not for decades. While they may not produce "pollutants," fusion reactions churn out neutrons which leave the works radioactive, and not in a safe enough to stick-down- the-front-of-your-pants way. So you'd occasionally have to recondition the guts of your plant.<br /><br />* * *<br /><br />Here is why space travel is expensive:<br /><br />(Mf+M0)/M0 = e^(Vd/Vex)<br /><br />Mf = Reaction mass required<br />M0 = Mass of everything except reaction mass, but including reaction mass for your return trip.<br />e = Natural log number, 2.178 or so<br />Vd = Change in velocity required<br />Vex = Exhaust velocity of your rocket ]]>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 12:52:34 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>muse hick</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ Is reaction the only way to achieve propulsion? We keep talking in terms of rockets -- I mean, I know that's what we have at the moment, but isn't it possible there will be some other way to achieve the movement? at some point theoretical physics has to become of some practical use other than fuelling thousands of episodes of pseudo-scientific tv shows, doesn't it?<br /><br />I think it is going to depend on something that comes out of left field, from somewhere we're not expecting -- something of Copernican scale that reframes how we think about the physical laws that govern the universe. Even as I'm writing this I feel like I'm talking pie in the sky where everyone else has been talking science. But still wanted to throw something out there. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 13:11:13 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>StefanJ</author>
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			<![CDATA[ @muse hick:<br /><br />Solar sails. Magnetic sails. You can also keep your "motor" at home and launch streams of pellets at a pusher plate on the rear of the space ship.<br /><br />NASA has, or had, a sort of Blue Sky propulsion techniques program that looked at all sorts of unlikely stuff. It's probably a good idea to do so, but I wouldn't expect a Dean Drive to pop out of the works any time soon. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 13:24:39 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>muse hick</author>
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			<![CDATA[ hmm, i'm kind of expecting an evolutionary spike anytime soon. it's been a while since the last brilliant revolutionary idea that had any kind of lasting impact. we need men of vision in power who don't re-route every single resource they have into blowing the crap out of people who know god by an other name just because they have lots of oil or israel doesn't like them ]]>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 13:28:15 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>agentarsenic</author>
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			<![CDATA[ I theorized a magnetic pinch as a way for space travel a couple of years back but I scrapped the idea because no one could survive the launch. Essentially the launcher consists of a tube with two electromagnets inside that hold a craft afloat (think vertical maglev) while spinning it. The electromagnets would theoretically spin the object very, very, fast before suddenly reversing polarity and changing the direction of rotation.  In my mind and limited knowledge of just about everything, this should send the object off into the void at great speed. Or crush it. Of course, the power requirements would be insane...<br /><br />Any of you phys/engineering heads know if this would work? ]]>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 13:29:04 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>StefanJ</author>
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			<![CDATA[ Man, I hope so. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 13:38:05 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Egon</author>
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			<![CDATA[ Use it to send the robots, so long as the magnetism doesn't render them useless, that is. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 13:45:18 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>agentarsenic</author>
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			<![CDATA[ I thought about magnetic flux rerouting for that, but I'm a layman and I don't know how well it would work with a very large and powerful magnetic force. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 14:14:06 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Val A Lindsay II</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ Ok, let's combine some theories together and see what we get here.<br /><br />1. We get the Kardashev scale Orwellseyes pointed to...<br />2. I will introduce the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity" >Technological Singularity</a> to it, introduced to me by <a href="http://dresdencodak.com/cartoons/dc_039.html" >Dresden Codak</a>... <br />3. Let's then consider the <a href="http://www.warrenellis.com/?p=5885" >Cognitive Surplus</a> that <a href="http://www.shirky.com/" >Clay Shirky</a> speaks about. (gleaned from Mr. Ellis's site)<br /><br />We are advanced enough to put men in space, we are advancing technologically to produce faster/safer ways to travel in space and we have more people networking and sharing ideas.<br /><br /> From what I read and reason out, we're going to be colonizing the solar system in some fashion this century... ]]>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 14:27:18 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Ben Gwalchmai</author>
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			<![CDATA[ Not exactly on topic but just a pointer if anyone hasn't seen it already:<br /><br /><a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7389553.stm" >http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7389553.stm</a><br /><br />[How I wish I had a science degree.]<br /><br />Edited to add: Many Futuroligists agree on The Singularity, Ray Kurzweil included: <em ><a href="http://www.kurzweilai.net/articles/art0134.html?printable=1" >The Law of Accelerating Returns</a></em> ]]>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 14:37:57 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Ben Gwalchmai</author>
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			<![CDATA[ I, also, personally love the idea of a future generation [our grandchildren hopefully] of space <em >explorers</em>.<br /><br />Not travelers, admittedly, but frontier men and women strapping a solar wind sail onto an ion-drive powered machine that has occasional Bussard ramjet bursts and somethin that can let them live and terraform for a while until they find a better way to actually travel.<br /><br />Given the opportunity, I'd do it in a nanosecond.<br /><br />@ Orwellseyes: I agree, NASA should open up the doors and as soon as they did, a flood of new ideas and collaborative projects would begin - in fact, computers left on over night should be calculating new equations for them. I think a collective effort like that went into figuring out various medical equations sometime ago. Would the internet's downtime resources combined compare with anything NASA's got or am I just hoping that all of us non-science degree students could make a difference? ]]>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 15:03:00 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Eithin</author>
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			<![CDATA[ Orwellseyes - I see your Gagarin and raise you a <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergei_Korolev" >Korolev</a>.<br /><img src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/66/Sergey_Pavlovich_Korolyov.jpg" alt="Cosmonaut Sergei Korolev" ><br /><br />Zombinoid - want yet another valuable space resource?  Hydrogen.  Jupiter's full of it, Saturn's full of it <em >and</em> it's purer.  Or for that matter, vacuum.  Hard vacuum is really useful stuff.<br /><br />M1k3y - oh, gods, people aren't still talking about space elevators, are they?  They won't work.  It's not possible.  You can't build up to a Clarke orbit, let alone beyond it.  If you're thinking about going the other way, there are a few problems beyond the minor technical challenge of merely attempting to dangle a 36,000km cable from orbit.  First, technological.  We don't have strong enough materials; we can't make strong enough materials.  Making strong enough materials to hold up under the strain would require violating some fundamental properties of either geometry, electromagnetic interactions, or basic mathematics.  Please not to be doing any of these on the surface of an inhabited planet.<br /><br />Second, financial.  There isn't enough capital in existence to finance something like that, and if there were the financiers would crash and burn.  That's what typically happens to grand entrepreneurs who build massive infrastructure projects.  <br /><br />And third, social.  We're talking about people who object to wind turbines and fucking mobile phone masts here.  Try building a space elevator and they'll be breaking out the pitchforks and flaming torches and holding meetings about planning permission.<br /><br />Our best bet is either to fill the air with enough satellites, planes, and general ironmongery to hop-frog up with plenty of rests, or the good old fire in the sky. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 15:05:34 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>rough night</author>
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			<![CDATA[ ap Minos - there still is that kind of collective effort going on for medical research - <a href="http://www.worldcommunitygrid.org/" >World Community Grid</a>. I use it all the time, in the background while working on low power tasks, and as a screensaver all the time. I haven't seen such a thing for NASA, though.<br /><br />Someday non-science folk will be needed in space, once we have actual communities up there, in space stations at first and eventually on other planets and moons, they'll need people of all skillsets. Hopefully the first stages at least will be in our lifetimes. I think we can expect more progress in that direction from the private sector, honestly, rather than NASA. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 15:56:08 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Verissimus</author>
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			<![CDATA[ @ Eithin;<br /><br />maybe not a space elevator, but what about...a gigantic escalator?!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.an-architecture.com/simpsons.jpg" alt="null" > ]]>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 16:23:42 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>m1k3y</author>
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			<![CDATA[ @Val A Lindsay II - EXACTLY!  <br /><br />now to do everything we can to work for <em >that</em> Future ]]>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 17:40:38 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Kosmopolit</author>
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			<![CDATA[ Quite apart from the eventual expansion of the sun, there are a whole series of natural disasters that could wipe out human civilisation if not the human race.<br /><br />Every 60 million odd years there's a Chixchilub size meteor impact. Every million years or so there's a smaller asteroid that could still fuck us up really badly.<br /><br />A volcanic eruption the size of the Deccan Steps would probably wipe us out entirely. An eruption the size of the Yellowstone supervolcano (which probably happens every 100,000 years or so) would probably not destroy the species but would probably destroy most of our current civilisation - seven years of winter will do that.<br /><br />Then there's the  evidence that for reasons we don't adequately understand, two or three times iin the last 500 million years atmospheric oxygen levels have decreased by 90% or more and wiped out most multicellular life on the planet.<br /><br />Oh and something reduced the human race to probably fewer than 1,000 individuals about 100,000 years ago. The event doesn't seem to match up with any of the ice ages or with  any other natural disasters so it was probably a plague.<br /><br />Establishing self-sufficient human populations off-planet would vastly increase our chances of survival. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 17:59:05 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Steerpike</author>
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			<![CDATA[ <em >Second, financial. There isn't enough capital in existence to finance something like that, and if there were the financiers would crash and burn. That's what typically happens to grand entrepreneurs who build massive infrastructure projects.</em><br /><br />And yet, despite the destruction of individual railroad fortunes and the discovery that fiber was overbuilt for the Internet, we use both. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 18:06:49 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>warrenellis</author>
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			<![CDATA[ <em >Then there's the issues of propulsion, speed, and time. Let's say there was some kind of miracle propulsion system that could move at a couple of miles a second. </em><br /><br />Escape velocity is seven miles a second.  Translunar injection burns took Apollo vehicles to a little under the same velocity -- 35,505 feet per second.  So we can, you know, do that. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 18:27:39 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>warrenellis</author>
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			<![CDATA[ <em >Let's say for argument's sake we establish colonies on Jupiter's moons, Mars and/or start mining asteroids.</em><br /><br />I know you said "for argument's sake," but if we're going to have this conversation, baselines have to be established.<br /><br />No-one can colonise a Jovian moon because no human can survive in the Jovian system.  It's flooded with lethal radiation.  If you stood on a Jovian moon wearing a tungsten spacesuit the size of a tank, you'd still be dead in about twenty minutes.<br /><br />Asteroid mining is basically science-fiction bullshit. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 19:43:08 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Alan Tyson</author>
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			<![CDATA[ Re: Artificial gravity: For large spacecraft, if we can move fast enough and control our acceleration so that our ship is moving at a constant 1g, then we could stand up and walk around. This is risky because any course correction would be like an earthquake at that speed (even more so if this is a large-mass vehicle), but hopefully all of those will be planned, and everyone can be placed in their tanks of shock-absorbing fluid or whatever.<br /><br />Here's a crazy thing I'm surprised no one has brought up yet: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Orion_%28nuclear_propulsion%29" >Project: Orion</a>. It's a little bit crazy, but really, not that much crazier than sticking yourself on any other kind of bomb with a hole punched in the bottom to let out the explosion. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 20:51:48 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Val A Lindsay II</author>
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			<![CDATA[ @ Warrenellis<br /><br />Ok, let's establish the reasons why we should go. I think human survival/expansion, encouraging technological advancement and scientific discovery are the prime reasons personally, but I'd like to hear other reasons. I haven't reasoned a lot of the how or where out, myself. Obviously not something I'm trained in... ]]>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 21:34:51 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>StefanJ</author>
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			<![CDATA[ Freeman Dyson wrote a great essay nearly 40 years ago that still strikes me as the best justification for space travel:<br /><br />Preserving the possibility of human cultural diversity and evolution.<br /><br />On Earth, we're going to increasingly be banging each others' elbow, physically and culturally. Survival is going to dictate a lot of rubbing off of difference and a ceiling on ambition. Freakish new variants on humanity would rightly be seen as a threat. <br /><br />On deep space habitats, perhaps situated on comets, anything would go . . . culturally, technologically, and genetically.<br /><br />Bruce Sterling used this -- with a bit of the even freakier Dyson piece "The Greening of the Galaxy" -- for the background of his novel <em >Schizmatrix</em>. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 21:58:24 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>stsparky</author>
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			<![CDATA[ I'm for mining the moon for H^3.<br /><br />And I think inside the asteroids is where we'd want to live. Larry Niven did a bit on this with the 1970's state of the art space tech. <br /><br />I would be game to figure a way to snatch Jupiter's lesser satellites out of their orbits and smash them into Mars. Earth's core is heavy. Mar's isn't. I suspect Mar's poles aren't stable. And I suspect we haven't begun to appreciate our moon's gifts. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 22:25:30 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>CamyLuna</author>
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			<![CDATA[ <blockquote >Since time is subjective, what would the travelers find when they came home from their ten year trip to God knows where?</blockquote><br />Any successful effort at establishing an infrastructure for space exploration and colonization is going to be a one way trip for most people at least in the first few centuries. It was a one way trip for most people when the New World was first settled - until technology caught up and made travel back and forth easy and affordable. I think that it would be similar for space travel, as well. And it would take years just to get a settlement going.<br /><br />Are people willing to invest - both personally and financially - in these types of very long term endeavors anymore? I think that there are people out there that would do it, but probably not individuals with qualities that governments or corporations would want to send. Also, could you imagine showing a corporate finance department a project with a return on investment of about 500 years. Not many investors could stomach that. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 00:18:22 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>m1k3y</author>
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			<![CDATA[ <blockquote >Are people willing to invest - both personally and financially - in these types of very long term endeavors anymore? I think that there are people out there that would do it, but probably not individuals with qualities that governments or corporations would want to send. </blockquote><br /><br />um, have you been on the internet?  it's full of software, hardware, biology people itching for the opportunity.<br /><br /><blockquote >Also, could you imagine showing a corporate finance department a project with a return on investment of about 500 years. Not many investors could stomach that.</blockquote><br /><br />Dot Com zillionaires are already throwing their money where their dreams are.  Especially that crew Neal Stephenson's hanging with.  The next five years should be interesting in that respect. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 02:11:06 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Osmosis</author>
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			<![CDATA[ <blockquote >Any successful effort at establishing an infrastructure for space exploration and colonization is going to be a one way trip for most people at least in the first few centuries.</blockquote><br />Just on that point, there are those willing to take up that offer:<br /><br /><blockquote >Here is an idea: Send battle-hardened, strong-minded soldiers and marines on the long trips into space. We are conditioned to live with the bare minimal (of) life’s necessities and are trained to be prepared for … the worst conditions that any environment could throw at us.<br /><br />Hell, me and my men will go, set up a colony somewhere and await colonists to arrive.</blockquote><br /><a href="http://www.livescience.com/blogs/2008/04/25/afghanistan-heroes-offer-to-colonize-moon-mars-and-beyond/" ><br />Link.</a><br /><br />Whether or not you do want to send the USMC to outer space (time until Aliens reference ... 3...  2...), it seems there are people out there with big enough boots to give the one-way ticket a try. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 09:51:19 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>orwellseyes</author>
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			<![CDATA[ <em >Send battle-hardened, strong-minded soldiers and marines on the long trips into space. We are conditioned to live with the bare minimal (of) life’s necessities and are trained to be prepared for … the worst conditions that any environment could throw at us.</em><br /><br />Devil's Advocate: Say you send that group of veterans off to build a colony. They could end up alone there for years, in a hostile, alien enviornment. There would be deaths, possible quite a few. Illness, cancers from radiation exposure, boredom, all this contributing to PTSD or other mental illness. If they're only (ONLY) going to Mars, there is considerable communication lag time and simply getting a signal clear and secure to Mars would be an undertaking unto itself. Modern military personnel can have video chats with loved ones from the war zone or even call people on cell phones from combat. In short, you might have a seriously not fun group of Marines sitting in Basecamp Bradbury at the foot of Olympus Mons.<br /><br />Then a bunch of water-fat colonists show up looking for their greenhouses. <br /><br />That could end...badly. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 10:16:38 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>warrenellis</author>
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			<![CDATA[ Funnily enough, a lot of this ties into a series idea I've been developing (very slowly, obviously) since the 90s.<br /><br />There are, frankly, two ways of going to space.  Slow and clean, and fast and dirty.  Some people favour the former because, to paraphrase (I thin) Kim Stanley Robinson, we should arrive at Mars with some class.<br /><br />Others point out that, really, no-one's looking, and we don't get extra points for doing it with a space windmill or something.   So why the fuck shouldn't we develop a nuclear 1G drive that turns Neptune into a 30-day round trip?<br /><br />Martian bases, much like moonbases, would have to be mostly underground, because there's no atmos or magfield to fend off radiation.  Mars requires serious alteration just to make living in domes safe and comfortable.  The general consensus right now, I believe, is that we shouldn't do that, and must preserve and respect the Martian environment. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 10:22:06 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>orwellseyes</author>
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			<![CDATA[ <em >The general consensus right now, I believe, is that we shouldn't do that, and must preserve and respect the Martian environment.</em><br /><br />Unless some great fucking tripods start crawling out of the red soil I don't see why we should.<br /><br />I remember, as a kid, reading about thickening the martian atmosphere and how terra-forming was the way to go. Now there's a martian Greenpeace? To save what? Rocks? <br /><br />Why not change the environment to suit our needs as a sentient lifeform? Claiming the whole solar system in the name of humanity, a species wide manifest destiny. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 10:37:17 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>rough night</author>
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			<![CDATA[ Considering the results of the last manifest destiny, I have to say caution might not be such a bad idea. Why not set up a research station with some good, solid radiation shielding and let a group of geologists and biologists study the place for a few years to make sure we wouldn't be destroying subterranean (submartian?) life or unleashing some hideous virus by terraforming the place? We can spare a little research time for the sake of safety and conscience. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 11:07:07 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>fro</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ Potential space elevator alternative - <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Launch_loop" >Launch Loop</a><br />It sounds (to me) a bit more likely to work, although the sheer size of it and energy needed to operate is still rather mind-boggling. <br />If you were interested in a one-way exploration trip then using it to orbit bits of a larger spacecraft and a crew and assembling it in orbit before moving it off to colonise Mars or whatever would probably be possible, assuming you could break the thing down into pieces of a size that the launch loop could launch. <br />Maybe you'd have to use too many pieces for a colonisation vehicle, but a large exploration craft with a nuclear engine sounds plausible doesn't it?<br /><br />Failing that it could also be used to construct a space station bigger and more on schedule than the ISS. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 11:10:19 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>orwellseyes</author>
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			<![CDATA[ <em >Considering the results of the last manifest destiny, I have to say caution might not be such a bad idea. Why not set up a research station with some good, solid radiation shielding and let a group of geologists and biologists study the place for a few years to make sure we wouldn't be destroying subterranean (submartian?) life or unleashing some hideous virus by terraforming the place? We can spare a little research time for the sake of safety and conscience.</em><br /><br />I'm with you on the virus aspect, but if the choice is between preserving the native microbes and making a habitable planet using our evil monkey brain science, I choose the latter. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 11:54:00 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>rough night</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ It would depend on the size and complexity of the life of course. Microbes - fuck 'em unless we can study and disect them to cure cancer. Alien plants and a couple bugs eating them, hmm, let's move a bunch to a satellite space terrarium and then terraform. Anything more complex, and I'd have a problem, mainly because anything more and you're talking about complex ecosystems rather than simple life. That said, it doesn't look like there's potential for anything on mars past the microbe level anyway, but some serious pre-terraform study would still be interesting and possibly useful, especially since the planet would be essentially smashed and remade by the terraforming process (smash some massive metal filled astroids into it is the first step as I understand it) and we'd never get that chance again. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 11:57:08 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>StefanJ</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ RE "battle hardened" vets leading the way:<br /><br />The big challenges awaiting space colonists will be utter boredom, sensory deprivation, vital equipment going wonky, miserably bland diets, and tedious scut work. There's some overlap there with military field life, but it's not unique to it. Submariners might be a better fit. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 12:03:37 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>orwellseyes</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ <em >Submariners might be a better fit.</em><br /><br />Even there, a really long tour on a sub is a matter of weeks below surface. Months or even years in cramped quarters with the same faces? <br /><br />Genetic engineering and biotech might give an answer. Say if someone can self-regulate their autonomic functions, sleep at a whim as oppsosed to tossing and turning in a cramped bunk. Or suppressing anti-social tendencies and sexual aggression. Granted, you're monkeying with some very interconnected systems there, but building a better astronaut might be ideal. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 12:13:06 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>StefanJ</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ I should plug Winchell Chung's Atomic Rockets page here:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.projectrho.com/rocketstub.html" >Atomic Rockets</a><br /><br />Winch is a true mad nerd genius.<br /><br />Offa the toppa my head:<br /><br />Really good chemical rocket: 5kph thrust velocity<br />NERVA fission thermal rocket: 8kph thrust velocity<br />Modern conception thermal rocket: 10kpb thrust velocity<br />Gaseous fission thermal rocket: 11kph thrust velocity<br />Existing solar powered ion thruster: 31 kph " "<br />Proposed antimatter thermal rocket: 50kpg thrust velocity<br />Original Project Orion nuclear bomb rocket: estimated 100kph thrust velocity <br />Theoretical inertial confinement fusion rocket: 700 kph " "<br />Theoretical magnetic confinement fusion rocket: 1,300 kph " "<br /><br />There's all sorts of tradeoffs and gotchas. Orion needs a giant steel plate and shock absorbers so there's a lot of dead weight you have to carry around. <em >Any</em> nuclear reactor rocket is going to have to haul around great whopping big radiators. Fusion rockets have very, very low thrust, and the "combustion chamber" has to be huge. The antimatter rocket mentioned above has a massive tungsten allow cylinder used as a heat transfer device . . . you shoot antihydrogen at it, it heats up by efficiently intercepting the gamma rays, and passes this on to the reaction mass. ]]>
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		<title>Will space travel ever be truly feasible?</title>
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		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 12:19:29 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Alan Tyson</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ I'm with Orwells on the genegineering solution. We can make a human custom-built for any environment we come across - with enough advancement in the field, we might even be able to make a human that can not only withstand the radiation in the Jovian system, but one whose skin eats that stuff up and converts it into biological energy. Now, that's about as pie-in-the-sky as colonizing the Jovian moons themselves, but it's not impossible.<br /><br />Would cybernetics also be a possible solution? I'm not as well-versed on that subject. <br /><br />Fro, that launch-loop idea sounds promising. Maybe use it as a mass-driver to send up construction materials from Earth and construct our ship in orbit. I'm a little dubious of putting people on that thing though - the Wikipedia article didn't make it sound terribly safe. I'd prefer to keep sending personnel up in smaller, reusable shuttles. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 12:25:22 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Egon</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ <a href="http://www.newsdesk.umd.edu/scitech/release.cfm?ArticleID=1098" >Meat grown in labs</a> will come in quite handy for space travel<br /><br />Also, I just want to say that, imo, this is the most interesting thread on the board. Keep it up, people. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 12:29:48 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Val A Lindsay II</author>
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			<![CDATA[ Does anyone know if there's much in the way of research into alloys produced in zero-G? ]]>
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		<title>Will space travel ever be truly feasible?</title>
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		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 12:32:41 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Alan Tyson</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ Here's the NASA site on that subject. It's kinda sparse, though: <a href="http://science.nasa.gov/MSL1/themes/manda_over.htm" >Metals and Alloy Overview</a> ]]>
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		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 12:38:04 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>fro</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ @Artemis<br /><br />That's (edit: the construction in orbit thing, I type too slow) an interesting idea, especially since by the time such a thing becomes feasible <a href="http://reprap.org/bin/view/Main/WebHome" >this</a> and <a href="http://grinding.be/2008/04/28/freaky-self-reassembling-robots/" >this</a> will have undoubtedly have advanced a great deal to the point where a large and efficient automated shipyard could be feasible. Maybe a single self-replicating constructor could be parked in orbit and supplied with materials to make more of itself until it could construct manned and unmanned spacecraft based on designs sent from whoever was running it in a reasonably short amount of time.<br /><br />Or it could achieve sentience and start building bombs to drop on us, who knows? I'd say it's worth the risk. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 12:50:13 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Alan Tyson</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ Well, in that case we just send someone up on an old Energia rocket armed with computer-virus blasting assault rifles. Easy!<br /><br />If you think about it, orbital construction, especially of a large Orion-style craft, makes a lot more sense than launching the whole thing at once from Earth. No kidding, one of the things that bothered me about Star Trek: Voyager was that the ship was built on Mt. McKinley - what the fuck, right? Though I hasten to add that I'd much rather have human beings up there to monitor the construction than just beaming Maya models up and letting the 3D printer do its thing. And the higher up, the better, like a geosynchronous orbit over somewhere nice and uninhabitable, like the open Pacific. Also, the higher up we go the more earth's magnetosphere will protect us from the radioactive blast of a nuclear-propelled ship, which I still think is the best way to get anywhere with today's technology. Wait a hundred years or so and we can switch to fusion torches, but I'd rather get up and going sooner rather than later. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 13:15:53 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>fro</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ I agree with you about human supervision for manned craft, these things are never going to be completely infallible. For satellites and probes it seems reasonable to let the printer do its thing, but on the other hand if you've built a manned facility with these things then having a separate unmanned one to build different things seems a bit silly.<br />Of course if you miss when shooting the raw materials up and put a slug of titanium through a station which you've got astronauts living on they're not going to be pleased about that.<br /><br />It's not really a comparable situation but what level of input do humans have in car production lines these days? ]]>
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		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 13:26:30 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>agentarsenic</author>
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			<![CDATA[ Anyone know of radiation levels in the outer solar system and what kind of shielding they would require? ]]>
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		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 13:47:31 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Alan Tyson</author>
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			<![CDATA[ A cheap and dirty way of shielding is water - the stuff soaks up radiation surprisingly well. As for different types of radiation, we'd be worrying more about output from the large gas giants, Jupiter and Saturn, than from solar radiation. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 14:32:56 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>muse hick</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ <a href="http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/mars_dangers_040120.html" >www.space.com</a><br /><br />found this, which may be of interest ]]>
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		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 18:13:56 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Ecksearoh</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ Charles Pellegrino's <a href="http://www.charlespellegrino.com/propulsion.htm" >Valkyrie starships</a> which would be capable of moving at fractions of the speed of light, and his <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativistic_kill_vehicle" >relativistic kill vehicles</a> originally relied on an exotic fuel source, anti-hydrogen produced in quantities large enough to serve as a <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antimatter_catalyzed_nuclear_pulse_propulsion" >nuclear propulsion catalyst</a>. I always wondered if it might be possible to gain a similar effect with some sort of exotic wellstone material (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programmable_matter" >programmable matter)</a> that was programmed to "think" it was anti-matter.. <br /><br />I don't see large scale anti-matter as ever being viable, nor do I see anti-gravity or human teleportation as realistic goals (simple inorganic matter like salts maybe). But we do have nuclear power right now, and we have experimented with <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_propulsion" >nuclear propulsion</a>, so that would have to be our best bet. Look at what worked with <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NERVA" >NERVA</a>, but move to a <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_thermal_rocket#Liquid_Core" >liquid-core design</a> similar to particle bed reactors, and throw in a bunch of nuclear powered <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion_drive" >Ion Thrusters </a> for steering. <br /><br />Pack lots of water for primary shielding, and use a reactive <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claytronics" >claytronics</a> hull for secondary shielding against charged particles, with self repair, and you are good to go. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Sat, 10 May 2008 00:06:27 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>aduckworth</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ I haven't read this entire thread, so my apologies if I'm echoing anyone else, but here are my thoughts:<br /><br />True space travel -- that is, travel not just slightly out of our atmosphere, but macro-scale interstellar/intergalactic travel -- is not going to happen with the current assumptions we in the mainstream are making about space.  The current assumptions we're making about space involve the notion that, if we can just design a spacecraft powerful enough to propel itself at, close to, or beyond the speed of light, then we can facilitate true space travel.  Of course the physics are important, but most people lack a sophisticated understanding of time (the fourth dimension), which is really the key issue.  <br /><br />People think of space as being "the final frontier" -- and it is (at least for us naive humans who have not even traveled through space!) -- but it's not the <em >next </em>one.  The next (and, really, current) frontier we absolutely must conquer before we can facilitate true space travel is the human mind.  Right now we have a crude understanding of it at best, but the brain is the most complex structure in our bodies for a reason: because it evolved first.  And because it evolved first, this necessarily means that it dictates everything that we put our hands to.<br /><br />I'm no neuroscientist, but I believe -- as with anything else -- that there is a fundamental way that we can understand the brain's evolutionary function: it is a mechanism which evolved to help us gradually perceive and subsequently navigate dimensions.  Right now the human brain has evolved to be able to <em >fully</em> perceive AND navigate three dimensions -- though, while we're currently able to<em > perceive</em> time as the fourth dimension, and we have a fairly good scientific understanding of it, we have not quite prepared ourselves to <em >navigate</em> it just yet.  We can brainstorm ideas as to what kind of vessel would physically be able to carry our bodies from point A to point B in a certain amount of time, but sustaining our bodies during that time is only going to be possible if we can fundamentally harness the power of the human brain's ability to sustain its own vessel -- the human body.  <br /><br />This is kind of a long-winded way of saying we need to learn more about suspended animation.  However, we need to focus on how we can achieve such a thing by subtly tricking the human brain into sustaining the body on its own, albeit without relying on consciousness as a guide for self-monitoring -- not by designing a sort of "iron lung" contraption that will serve as a sort of surrogate motor cortex, because the brain is necessarily an analog mechanism whereas just about anything we design will inevitably be rigid, calculated and fundamentally out of sync with our bodies.  Tricking the brain may not necessarily be as simple as hooking a machine up to it -- in fact, it's probably not even going to be something that we are going to consciously design.  Mass media is already altering our fundamental experience of reality and perception of history in startling ways, and I'd say that there's a reasonably good chance that its continued evolution will play a big role in significantly changing our collective ability to fully comprehend the dynamics of spacetime.<br /><br />So my point is that, at this early stage in the "space age", we are being incredibly naive with our current approach to building rockets.  The general assumption is that we need massive amounts of propulsion while we're in space to make sure we get to our destination in a relatively timely fashion (e.g. within the typical human lifespan) -- but in that very statement we are allowing time to dictate how we travel, instead of allowing the infinite nature of time to influence how we think about travel in the first place.  We only really need propulsion to give us a certain amount of inertia so that, once in space, gravity (or the lack thereof) will do the rest.  We may be moving "slowly" in three dimensions, but we'd only be moving "slowly" if we were fully conscious of the passage of time.  I really don't think we need a vessel to be all that powerful if we can trick our minds and our bodies into perceiving that we've just been napping for the past 50 million years. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Sat, 10 May 2008 00:56:45 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>aduckworth</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ I should clarify my point about time being the fourth dimension -- actually, it is the fourth AND fifth dimensions.  Technically, we are able to fully perceive and navigate the fourth dimension in the sense that we can perceive and anticipate the future to a certain degree, but our anticipation of the future fully depends on our analysis of the past.  So, while we perceive time as moving in one direction (toward the future), it is necessarily bidirectional -- not because it's possible to travel backwards in time (it isn't, and it never will be, no matter how cool it would be), but because our ability to perceive the past <em >inherently influences</em> our future.  So I guess what I mean to say is that we are able to fully perceive and navigate four dimensions, but our current conception of time's bidirectionality is very limited, and until we have a collective biologically instilled sense of how that works, we're not going to be able to fully navigate spacetime. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Sat, 10 May 2008 01:47:24 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>warrenellis</author>
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			<![CDATA[ Hippie. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Sat, 10 May 2008 03:04:59 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Kosmopolit</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ Okay some more thoughts on this topic:<br /><br />1. It's relatively easy NOW to say "Well sure com-sats and weather-sats and Earth observation satellites and GPS are worthwhile but we already have those, what's the ISS going to do for us?"<br /><br />But when Sputnik went up, virtually none of that had been thought of. A similar analysis back then would probably have argued that there was little or no economic benefit to space travel.<br /><br />What benefits are we going to derive from the ISS, moon landings, planetary missions?<br /><br />There's only one way to find out.<br /><br />2. You now have a whole bunch of countries with space programs - the US, the EU, Russia, China, Japan and India for starters. Even if one or more of those countries decides there's no economic benefit to space travel, the others are probably going to continue - and whatever benefits there are will accrue to those others. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Sat, 10 May 2008 03:15:48 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>TechnocratJT</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ I keep trying to find something useful to add in here....all I got:<br /><br />Every government who has the money to burn on a military should fund it. <br /><br />Corporations should fund it. Mad dictators should fund it. Crazy ass loner billionaires should fund it. We do not need an economic justification; the day humanity reaching for a new frontier and wanting to explore requires dollar to sense rationalization we have fucking lost.  Dirty space travel with men and woman who are willing to risk death just to be the first. Long term clean travel from green think tanks with extra money. Military ships to see whats strategic.  Giant ego rocket with bill gates face on it.  Crazy ass rocket built by lunatic on a patch of big sky country. <br /><br />Don't care which, want all of them now. ]]>
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		<title>Will space travel ever be truly feasible?</title>
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		<pubDate>Sat, 10 May 2008 07:57:20 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Spiraltwist</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ I want to re-read ORBITER now. Again. <br /><br />Dirty or clean, it doesn't matter how at this point. We need to get out into space, asap. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Sat, 10 May 2008 08:15:08 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>warrenellis</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ <em >But when Sputnik went up, virtually none of that had been thought of. A similar analysis back then would probably have argued that there was little or no economic benefit to space travel.</em><br /><br />No, see, this is what eventually crocked human spaceflight.  Sputnik was political.  Apollo was political.  The gains were political.  And once the political gains had been achieved, those funding the spaceflights no longer gave a shit, and that was that. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Sat, 10 May 2008 09:12:08 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Val A Lindsay II</author>
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			<![CDATA[ @ Warrenellis<br /><br />   Sad but true, I suppose. Politics and Government funding have always been the biggest 'achievers' in spaceflight. (Honorable mention to the Wright Brothers. All they had was a bike shop and their ideas!) I've watched what Virgin Galactic has done with some interest but what they're doing seems to be for the market of tourism. Perhaps the idealistic goals of spaceflight always need to be veiled in some kind of 'imminent threat' scenario or marketing scheme for people to move forward into space... ]]>
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		<pubDate>Sat, 10 May 2008 10:39:10 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Alan Tyson</author>
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			<![CDATA[ Well, even though Virgin Galactic does nothing to hide the fact that it's a corporate endeavor, it's still pandering to the sense of wonder and excitement that SHOULD be taking us up into space. That's at least a step in the right direction. And considering that at first only super-rich people will be going up, some of those super-rich people might be impressed enough to fund Virgin Galactic or other private groups (please tell me there will be more). Corporate scheme or no, this is probably one of our better hopes for space travel.<br /><br />Discounting, of course, a <em >Red Thunder</em>-style homebuilt spacecraft, which would be the coolest thing any human has ever done since someone decided to write down sounds. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Sat, 10 May 2008 13:11:42 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>aduckworth</author>
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			<![CDATA[ <blockquote >Hippie.</blockquote><br /><br />lol<br /><br />Hey man, don't get me wrong, I think it would be totally badass if we could develop some kind of ultra-extreme rocket that will bend spacetime to our will and cater to our weaknesses as human beings.  But I honestly just can't say I believe that's how space travel is ultimately going to happen.  First of all, everybody knows that -- at least at our current rate -- it would take a totally unreasonable and unmanageable amount of resources to propel ourselves across the universe within a human lifetime.  And second, the path of history consistently dwarfs the assumptions we make in the present -- there are so many technological achievements in the world that started out as incredibly cumbersome, inefficient, costly undertakings based more out of human curiosity than out of broad practicality, and future generations would look upon those things as monuments to human naivety.  One day, I can guarantee the shuttle that took man to the moon and the shuttle that will take us to Mars in a few decades will become a part of that legacy.  <br /><br />Granted we are learning lots of things about the physical universe that we wouldn't have known had we not been guided by an obsessive curiosity, and the bulk of that knowledge will serve us well in the long run, but I think that ultimately the true realization of space travel will be a much simpler undertaking than we currently are willing to accept.  I'm not trying to channel Timothy Leary here or something, I'm just saying there are some fairly obvious major practicality issues involved in space travel which are tied to our fundamental human experience of reality, whether we like to admit it or not, and these impracticalities often get eschewed in favor of the layman's excessively eager and wide-eyed theorizing.  I think eventually we're going to hit a theoretical wall and realize that time is our greatest resource because it is infinite, and when you're dealing with something as infinite as space, you need an infinite resource on your side, and that's the only one I can think of off the top of my head.<br /><br />But who knows, maybe the CERN supercollider will prove me wrong this summer...! ]]>
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		<pubDate>Sat, 10 May 2008 13:20:50 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>raymondconlon</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ Will space travel ever be feasible?<br /><br />Oh yes indeed.  We will be taking flights to the colonies of Jupiter's many moons (Radiation can go to hell!) and other wonderful spacey things like that.<br /><br />But knowing my luck, that reality will arrive the day after I so happen to have some sort of freak and fatal accident involving the house cleaning unit (it's the future and there will be robots, damnit!). ]]>
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		<pubDate>Sat, 10 May 2008 14:41:09 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>user84001</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ Virgin Galactic does not need any funding as they are owned by a billionaire (that’s million with a B), and yes there are plenty more companies offering space flight, and even though it appears that only the &quot;super rich&quot; will get to experience space flight first, we are working on ways to involve everyone. <br /><br />Space is not as expensive as NASA or anyone for that matter would lead you to believe. Even though the V2 was an instrument of war in the 40's it was the world’s first sub-orbital vehicle that cost just $13,000.00 to make - yes you read that right - thirteen thousand dollars. In today’s dollars that same cost is only $1.3 million. At the time the V2 was being constructed Germany had the ability to put together an assembly line that could have produced 1,000 V2 rockets per month all during a war they were losing.<br /> <br />NASA's little Joe rocket - designed, built and flown in the 50’s to test the very same technology that would eventually take humanity to the Moon was built for $200,000.00 in today’s dollars you can build the same rocket for $2 million. Why is launching a rocket so expensive, because everyone who can - has their hand jammed in the same government cookie jar that is being funded by the average American tax-payer while the rest simply look the other way. <br /><br />Russia actually laughs each time they find someone willing to spend what is now $40 million dollars for a flight to the space station onboard a rocket that cost less than half that to produce. <br /><br />The average sub-orbital vehicle will hold 6 passengers. Each will pay $200k<br />The actual cost to launch that ship into sub-orbit is roughly $80k <br /><br />Sub-orbital companies today can already afford to sell seats priced as low as $50,000.00 and still make a profit, they simply choose not to because the market can afford to give them more because if its not expensive it wont win contracts or get noticed as a viable system, investors wont be interested enough.<br /><br />The Lynx offered by XCOR will take you to a height of 37 miles for a total price of $100,000.00 but its still only half way to sub-orbit. For $29,000.00 you can rent a Mig-31 Foxhound in Russia and a pilot will not only take you up to 15 miles (which gives you the same view and experience as the Lynx) but he will also let you fly it for a few moments.<br /><br />Space is not that expensive and their are companies in this industry who are quietly working on a solution..... Trust me! ]]>
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		<pubDate>Sat, 10 May 2008 17:17:46 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Kosmopolit</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ There's a huge difference between suborbital and orbital.<br /><br />Before I buy the idea that Virgin Galactic or any other private company can drastically cut the price of putting humans into orbit, they'll actually have ot put humans into orbit. Spaceship One didn't even come close to that. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Sat, 10 May 2008 18:50:22 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Val A Lindsay II</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ I'm thinking the slower, cautious way here.<br /><br />   After we had established residency on the moon, I'm imagining large cylinders much like those in Macross or Babylon 5. They would provide gravity, surface area, and bulk for protection. If we don't use the moon for material and factories, it's easy for me to imagine a cylinder like this solely being used as a factory, the center providing null gravity for tearing apart asteroids for material, moving large structures around easily and the surface area being used for the machinery to refine ore, etc. All of this is based on the bare-bones idea of getting a foothold in space <em >and</em> establishing the easiest/most efficient path to being able to produce vehicles large enough for many people to inhabit and provide for themselves. I know any number of problems can and will occur, but I'm having trouble imagining anything else but trying to do what we've always done; Go towards the next horizon. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Sat, 10 May 2008 19:36:12 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>user84001</author>
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			<![CDATA[ Its going to take at least a decade for the private sector to establish residency on the moon, but you can count on orbital space tourism beginning in 2010. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Sat, 10 May 2008 22:12:17 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>stsparky</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ Expendable balloons that take a ship 20/30 miles up - then launch? Might deal with the cost issue. It's stupid to build a sky hook all the way into Earth's surface, but a tower and hook combo would work. And mass drivers for cargo? I thought we'd have seen this by now. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Sat, 10 May 2008 23:18:54 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>StefanJ</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ Some sounding rockets got a head start via balloon. It's a cheap lift above the denser bits of the atmosphere; your rocket motor doesn't use as much of its capacity pushing aside air and more getting to altitude.<br /><br />The REAL bitch for getting into orbit isn't altitude, but velocity. You need to be going about 27,000 kph parallel to the Earth's surface to get into low Earth orbit. <br /><br />This is why a pure mass driver solution isn't feasible. A big accelerator might be able to get a payload capsule up to orbital velocity . . . but it would be at ground level! 27,000 kph at GROUND LEVEL! Sucker would burn up. What you might do is use an accelerator to get a cargo rocket going, replacing the equivalent of a first stage. Or the "rocket" could be in part a reusable ramjet, which would use oxygen from the air rather than carrying the liquid stuff. That would get it up to the edge of the atmosphere, then an actual rocket stage would do the orbital insertion. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Sat, 10 May 2008 23:38:05 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Val A Lindsay II</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ Hey! I just remember this <a href="http://www.newscientist.com/channel/fundamentals/mg18925331.200-take-a-leap-into-hyperspace.html" >New Scientist article</a> on <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burkhard_Heim" >Burkhard Heim.</a> Anti-gravity and Hyperspace! I had all these articles in links but lost them in a computer crash a couple of years ago and had forgotten up until today. Warrenellis either had this link or something similar to it on his website... ]]>
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		<pubDate>Sun, 11 May 2008 01:01:08 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Alan Tyson</author>
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			<![CDATA[ Whoa. I completely got lost after the second paragraph, but if it's as oddly possible as it sounds...well, two questions. <br /><br />First, couldn't they come up with a cooler name than hyperdrive? <br /><br />Second, for the physicists here, how feasible is this? ]]>
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		<pubDate>Sun, 11 May 2008 09:39:49 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Val A Lindsay II</author>
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			<![CDATA[ Heim was a math genius. Apparently his theories hadn't been touched for a while simply because the population that can comprehend that level of math are far and few between... ]]>
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		<pubDate>Sun, 11 May 2008 16:35:38 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Kosmopolit</author>
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			<![CDATA[ Well that and the fact he only published about six papers, most of the in popular science magazines not peer-reviewed journals, worked in German and refused to allow his work to be translated into English, refused to answer correspondence from other scientists interested in his work and made up his own mathematical notation on the fly without  bothering to record the definitions. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Sun, 11 May 2008 16:58:49 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Alan Tyson</author>
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			<![CDATA[ Sounds like a mad genius. I don't feel quite so bad about not understanding any of that stuff, then. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Sun, 11 May 2008 20:52:34 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Kosmopolit</author>
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			<![CDATA[ He was blinded and lost both his hands in a lab explosion during world War II. He was brilliant enough to get his doctorate in Physics under incredibly difficult circumstances in post-war Germany. (His wife had to read all his textbooks to him and he had to dictate all his coursework to her.)<br /><br />He was sort of the real world Baron Zemo. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 15 May 2008 16:38:54 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>m1k3y</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ bumping this baby back up.<br /><br />have people read this:<br />http://www.worldchanging.com/archives/007092.html<br />-- on how developing the tech to live on Mars can help us solve the environmental problems we have here on Earth<br /><br />there's also the straight up cool tech angle.<br />i can see the development of a colony of Mars pushing much needed funs into the development of rad. tech like:<br /><br />* quantum entanglement - to develop true next-gen communications tech? unless i fundamentally misunderstand the concepts here, couldn't this be used for near instant comms between Earth and Mars?<br /><br />* fabricators - drop a few robot factories down, before the colonists get there - they chew up the ground and start printing out the building blocks for habitats etc ]]>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 15 May 2008 17:01:31 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>warrenellis</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ <em >Its going to take at least a decade for the private sector to establish residency on the moon, but you can count on orbital space tourism beginning in 2010. </em><br /><br />I doubt it.  There's not a crew-rated launch vehicle in the private sector that can establish orbit.<br /><br /><em >* quantum entanglement - to develop true next-gen communications tech? unless i fundamentally misunderstand the concepts here, couldn't this be used for near instant comms between Earth and Mars?</em><br /><br />There's not even the beginnings of an applicable test article for quantum channel communications.  <a href="http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/03/080328101532.htm" >Here's the best we've got</a>, as of one month ago:<br /><br /><blockquote > For the first time, physicists have been able to identify individual returning photons after firing and reflecting them off of a space satellite in orbit almost 1,500 kilometres above the earth.  The experiment has proven the possibility of constructing a quantum channel between Space and Earth.</blockquote><br /><br /><em >* fabricators - drop a few robot factories down, before the colonists get there - they chew up the ground and start printing out the building blocks for habitats etc </em><br /><br />Again, the environmental issues may apply. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 15 May 2008 18:07:53 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>ScottBieser</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ I was born the year of Sputnik. As a child growing up with the Space Race, I had dreams of someday living in a Lunar colony or maybe touring Mars. Of course we didn't get the future we were promised.<br /><br />I still hold some long-term optimism for the future, but I doubt it will ever be me leaving Earth. My grandchildren, maybe.<br /><br />Back in the 1950s it was unthinkable that any organization other than a large national government, able to grab massive wealth and resources from its peons, could build space vehicles.<br /><br />Half a century later, billionaire moguls are planning and building space craft and a spaceport in New Mexico. Their aims are modest at this point, but they're going up just the same. <br /><br />Fifty years from now, commercial ventures in the Earth-Moon system, and maybe even operations on Mars, will likely become both technologically and economically feasible. Not soon enough for most any of us to participate, sadly, but we'll get there, and we'll get there when fortunes can be made doing it. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 15 May 2008 21:17:05 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>stsparky</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ Scott,  I share the same natal day as NASA. I had friends who won the Space X prize ... And we have people who want their future now. <br /><img src="http://web.archive.org/web/20060426214020/www.metaweb.com/wiki/upload/2/29/FriendsXPrizeWinners.jpg" alt="" ><br /><br />People who want to work in Space Tech have <a href="http://www.bigelowaerospace.com/careers/" >Bigelow Aerospace</a>.  There are resources on the moon I think the USA is not ready to share with China. I suspect brute force may always be an option.<br /><br />This <a href="http://www.spacex.com/" >link</a> via SpaceX seems solid: <br />  	<br /><a href="http://www.spaceflightnow.com/news/n0804/27complex40/" >Old Titan launch pad gantry at Cape knocked down</a><br /><em >... so despite the service tower's destruction on Sunday, the historic Complex 40 will live on.<br /><br />"The role of the pad is changing," Diller said. "Complex 40 will still have a very important role as far as NASA is concerned because a new family of rockets is coming on board."<br /><br />"It is one of only a few heavy-lift pads at the Cape," Buzza said. "SpaceX is very fortunate to have been granted use of Complex 40. We will put it to good use." </em><br /><br /><img src="http://www.spaceflightnow.com/news/n0804/27complex40/complex40.jpg" alt="" > ]]>
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		<pubDate>Fri, 16 May 2008 02:33:09 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>m1k3y</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ <em >The experiment has proven the possibility of constructing a quantum channel between Space and Earth.</em><br /><br />the details of that experiment as so insane that i expect this to be banal in 20yrs.<br />just as trying to explain a girl updating her Facebook status with her mobile would be to someone from 20yrs ago<br /><br /><em ><blockquote >* fabricators - drop a few robot factories down, before the colonists get there - they chew up the ground and start printing out the building blocks for habitats etc</blockquote><br /><br />Again, the environmental issues may apply.</em><br /><br />ok point taken, don't want to piss off the space hippies by digging up Mars.<br />think they'll let us send fabricators into the Asteroid Belt then, build a fully formed, self-contained habitat there and ever so gently place that on the surface?<br /><br />the last SpaceRace gave us odd stuff like Velcro and the Microwave<br />be interesting to see what Consumer by-products get developed by solving the problems of returning to Space properly and getting to Mars ]]>
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		<pubDate>Fri, 16 May 2008 22:22:21 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>StefanJ</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ <i >the last SpaceRace gave us odd stuff like Velcro and the Microwave</i><br /><br />No, and No.<br /><br />We didn't get Tang out of it either.<br /><br />You don't go to space to accidentally create crap for consumers that gets taken for granted after two years. You do it for this:<img src="http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/136062main_bm4_3.jpg" alt="Earthrise" ><br />And this:<br /><img src="http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/image/0610/eagleend_hst_big.jpg" alt="Orion, sucker" > ]]>
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		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jun 2008 16:50:56 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>ScottBieser</author>
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			<![CDATA[ <blockquote >ok point taken, don't want to piss off the space hippies by digging up Mars.</blockquote><br /><br />Oh, it'll be worse than that.<br /><br />My buddy Neil Smith wrote a story (Pallas) set in the late 21st Century in which there are human colonies on Luna, Mars, and Pallas, and fortunes being made in mining the Asteroids. And on Earth, there is something called the Mass Movement which asserts that all that space material coming to Earth will upset Earth's "delicate balance" and cause the continents to collapse into the mantle. Despite the silliness of such a theory, the Movement has a huge popular following.<br /><br />And I expect what we'll actually get when humanity begins exploiting the planets and planetoids will be even sillier than that. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 01:42:48 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>stsparky</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ @ScottBeiser Pallas was not the only time Smith ventured into the asteroids. I kinda like the "Venus Belt" myself.  <br /><br />Do you think we could set up a shielded human delivery systems from Earth to Mars and back? I think we'd have to do some brutal stuff like make Mars' core heavier someway to keep its' poles stable. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 12:50:40 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Willow Bl00</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ ..the images we get of nebulas are actually extremely grainy and greyscale (if that... it's actually just the best interpretation of the data we recieve back put into a visual format). They have publicists that make them look that pretty. At least that was the last data I read about, and a lot can change in a year.<br /><br /><br />Though yes, Earth does look lovely from so far away, we go to space for the utilitarian possibilities, not for the view. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 13:13:14 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>warrenellis</author>
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			<![CDATA[ A colony on Pallas?  There's too much shit floating around it, there's no water or iron and it probably outgasses magnesium by-products half the year.  What made him choose Pallas?<br /><br /><em >there is something called the Mass Movement which asserts that all that space material coming to Earth will upset Earth's "delicate balance" and cause the continents to collapse into the mantle. Despite the silliness of such a theory, the Movement has a huge popular following.</em><br /><br />And you say he doesn't write tracts...! ]]>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 15:50:15 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>StefanJ</author>
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			<![CDATA[ Y'know Warren, you probably know a fuckload more about this stuff than most "hard SF" authors.<br /><br />One of the reasons I stopped going to conventions was running into folks whose science clock stopped when hopes for L-5 colonies was consuming brainshare the way the Singularity is now. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 17:21:58 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>warrenellis</author>
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			<![CDATA[ Y'know Warren, you probably know a fuckload more about this stuff than most "hard SF" authors.<br /><br />Probably not.  I'm a dilletante in that as in all things.  I am curious as the Pallas choice, though.  Unless the future mining colony there is just one guy banging out diopside earrings or something.  Ceres is a more interesting choice -- it may have a small atmosphere, which provides protection from the tiny debris, there's very probably processable water there, and it may even prove to have swept its immediate neighbourhood of objects ]]>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 18:03:45 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Kosmopolit</author>
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			<![CDATA[ Neil Smith has written a seres of novels titled after various asteroids.<br /><br />They're basically tools to expound his libertarian beliefs so I don't think he put much more thought into the choice of Pallas as a title than that it was next on the list of major asteroids he was working through. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 18:07:02 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>warrenellis</author>
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			<![CDATA[ <em >Neil Smith has written a seres of novels titled after various asteroids.</em><br /><br />Aha.  That explains that, thanks. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 18:44:59 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>StefanJ</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ Local water is real big.<br /><br />Not just for life support and fuel (yeah, yeah, reaction mass). Coming up with ways to run industrial processes without water would be a bitch. <br /><br />I really hope the moon has lots at the poles. Then the whole harvesting He3 fusion fuel deal becomes a lot more practical. If there's whole crapload, you could trade off sustainability for expansion. That is, use some of it for spaceship fuel and trust that other ships will bring back more water, and with nitrogen other volatiles the moon might not have any of.<br /><br />I read that there's a contest for schools where they design lunar water harvesters. Fingers crossed. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 22:29:40 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>chinchalinchin</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ (First post!)<br /><br />So there's no a whole lot left to say on the subject of space travel that hasn't been said. Some of the posts here have made me rack my brain harder than any of the lectures given by my physics professors last semester. Which could be good. Or it could be bad. Very bad.<br /><br />But I do think there is something to be added. <br /><br />Most of what has been discussed is based on classical physics. Which is expected since today's spacecraft still function on an Einsteinian conception of the universe. All those rocket scientists we hear so much about are all assuming a continuum of space and time that morphs and distorts in the presence of matter. The universe though, on the smallest of scales, does not operate according to Einstein's equations of motion. In fact, the microscopic world is rather lawless. Like a Mel Gibson movie from the eighties. <br /><br />String theory is an interesting attempt to unify the microscopic with general relativity. And if you know anything about String Theory, you're probably expecting me to appeal to the possibility of higher dimensions for faster space travel. But, I'm not. if String Theory does happen to be right (or, to be more precise, a more refined model of the universe, just as Einstein refined Newton's model), I think there is a more plausible and less out-of-this-world way for us to get to the stars.<br /><br />First, let me introduce Michael Faraday. Michael Faraday deduced the relationship between magnetic flux and the electromotive force in circuits, Faraday's Law. While doing this, Faraday proposed this thing called a 'Faraday Cage' (real modest guy, huh?). A Faraday Cage is a box built out of conducting material in such a way that it blocks out all external electric fields and, in a manner of speaking, rearranges the charges on the conductor so all the fields inside the box cancel. <br /><br />Back to String Theory. String Theory predicts a particle called the graviton. Analogous to the photon or bosons, they are the messenger particles of the gravitational field. Sort of like how atoms that exchange electrons feel an electric force, objects that exchange gravitons feel a gravitational force.<br /><br />Now imagine a Faraday Cage that cancels out gravitational fields instead of electric fields. Although there are some obvious flaws with this idea, most notably the fact there is no observed gravitational phenomena that is analogous to current or voltage, so this idea is probably a little far fetched. <br /><br />But that's not really my point. My point is, if the graviton does happen to exist, than that would open whole new windows we never even knew were possibly. Just think. Space travel in the next century could have an entirely different face. Instead of brute forcing our way into space, we could trick nature into thinking our spacecrafts weigh less than they actually do and fling them through space with much greater velocities than they would normally achieve. Kind of like Mass Effect's Mass Relays. <br /><br />And I mean, it's about String Theory gave us something useful, right? ]]>
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		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2008 03:57:43 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Alastair</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ i'm not a scientist. never will be.<br /><br /><br />but i wanna see space. i want to be part of the generation that took the step and said "fuck it, lets see how far we can go" i don't know of a kid who doesn't think astronauts are the coolest motherfuckers ever. buzz aldrin can have my girlfreind and my mum if he wants. <br /><br />i can spend hours lookng at hubble pictures of the pillars of creation. how can people see these things and think "naaaahhhh. i'll just build a better way to kill someone." or "naaaahh i'd rather we spent our time and money seeing how many celebraties we can get naked"<br /><br /><br />god the human race annoys me ]]>
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		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2008 04:01:01 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Alastair</author>
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			<![CDATA[ oh one more thing. why can't we go faster than light? sureley its just a matter of it being a bit dark. why would we catch ourselves? how would it bend time? why can't something just go very vry very very fast?<br /><br />i konw its ignorant but dammit i want to see what we can do ]]>
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		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2008 10:38:27 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>warrenellis</author>
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			<![CDATA[ <em >My point is, if the graviton does happen to exist</em><br /><br />The thing is, it's about as real as cavorite right now, and likely to stay that way.<br /><br />That said, have you read up on the old Breakthrough Propulsion team at NASA? ]]>
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		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2008 13:45:32 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>rickiep00h</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ So I'm finally saying something on this.<br /><br />I don't think the biggest issue here is the physics behind it. As humans, we've always excelled at making the impossible possible. Hell, the idea of the radio or television still makes my mind bend (you mean you can send <em >information</em>... through the <em >air?</em>) If we can  send a crew into orbit on the back of 30-year-old technology, we can certainly figure out a way to ship people light-years away at some point. It's just a matter of putting your mind to it, y'know?<br /><br />And that's the real hurdle, is getting everyone to agree that going to space is The Thing to Do. Sure, there's technical issues, but if we all say "Wait a minute. What if we just stop fighting and try to do something together?" I don't want to sound like a Socialist hippie here, but if we let the private sector take us to space we have a strong possibility of living in Philip K. Dick novels for all eternity.<br /><br />In order to get the financing, resources, and know-how together for a project like this, we need a global communication net and universal goals. And honestly, that in itself is enough to make me want to go to space. Diverting from the political bullshit, the constant warfare, the hunger and squabbling long enough to get everyone OUT is enough for me. Deep space exploration is just the end result, I think. Sure, explorers in the Renaissance were trying to find trade routes or whatever, but I think a fair amount of "well, there's got to be SOMETHING out there we can do or use" went into it, too. Do we have a specific reason for going to space right now? I think it's for the purpose of finding out if we can go any further with the idea. Can we go to Mars? Can we go to Jupiter? Can we get to the Centari system? Is there water out there? Is there <em >life</em> out there? The whole idea of going to space is to see if it's worth going to space, and it always will be that way. If we get to Centari, then what do we say? Can we get to Andromeda one day (before it runs into us, of course)?<br /><br />Do we need "The Government" to take us there? Not necessarily. But we need a sufficiently large amount of people willing and able to pull together with enough financing as is realistic to get there. And once we're there, there is the issue of ownership, and I think that's the second big hurdle. People naturally want to own things (at least in our current society). So, then, who owns the Moon? Who decides how it gets divided up? Who gets a particular portion of space? It requires even more teamwork and communication of goals and desires. Getting past humanity's own divisiveness is what the biggest accomplishment will be. And THEN it's a physics/engineering issue.<br /><br />But it should be worth noting that inventing machines that can think for themselves in pursuit of the phsyical "how" problem is a Very Bad Idea. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2008 17:09:36 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>chinchalinchin</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ @warrenellis<br /><br />Most modern physicists are pretty convinced the graviton exists. Of course, most modern physicist 1,000 years ago thought angels pushed the planets around in their orbits. <br /><br />But regardless, one of the first of the next generation of particle accelerators is in the final stages of productions buried somewhere underneath Switzerland, the Large Hadron Collider. Some think it will be enough to show the existence of the graviton, although most agree it probably won't. The main reason many theoretical physicist are so anxious, though, is because when it's finally done, they'll be able to confirm the existence of the Higgs boson particle, which the Standard Model of particle physics hinges on. The Higgs field is sort of like the molasses other particles accelerate through to gain their mass. I think the application of the Higgs boson in space travel should be pretty obvious. Again, I'm imagining a scenario where we trick nature into accelerating a heavy object at the same rate it would accelerate a much lighter object. Of course it would take some clever engineering, but goddamnit, if we can have Coors beer labels that turn blue when they're cold, we can have manageable space travel!<br /><br />Edit: I just looked up NASA's Breakthrough Propulsion Program. I had no idea something like that ever existed. The only drive I read about, though, that seemed to have any merit to it was the Alcubierre drive. Still pretty interesting stuff. It's shame it's no longer funded. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2008 18:10:45 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Ariana</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ <blockquote >Most modern physicists are pretty convinced the graviton exists.</blockquote>C'mon.  Everyone knows that the real trick is to anchor our ships to Dark Matter with thin, nearly transparent transfer cables and let the equal-but-opposite orbit pull the vehicles through space at doublespeed.  It's in all the old television sci-fi serials, even. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2008 23:47:02 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>SRT</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ I like to compare human space travel to human water travel.<br /><br />And, so far, everything we've done is the equivalent of diving into a lake, floating around on a log a bit, and then gone back to our tribal home.<br /><br />We've got a long way to go before we'll be able to build sailing ships and cross continents. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Oct 2009 12:37:29 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Ben Gwalchmai</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ I never got my answers. I, Lazarus Thread, demand an answer to this:<br /><br /><a href="http://dvice.com/archives/2009/10/plasma-rocket-e.php" >http://dvice.com/archives/2009/10/plasma-rocket-e.php</a><br /><br />- Where the hell did this Ad Astra Rocket Company come from?<br />- Is their <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_Specific_Impulse_Magnetoplasma_Rocket" >VASMIR (Variable Specific Impulse Magnetoplasma Rocket)</a> a smaller compact version of a Bussard Ramjet using different fuel? [I hope so, otherwise what's with the magnetic field?]<br /><br />And finally...<br /><br />"39 days, darling...hmm...Whose up for a summer holiday to Mars, kids?" ]]>
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		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Oct 2009 12:43:16 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Ben Gwalchmai</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ Also<br /><br />- <a href="http://www.popfi.com/2009/10/07/saturns-giant-new-ring/" >http://www.popfi.com/2009/10/07/saturns-giant-new-ring/</a><br /><br />What?<br /><br />More shitty space radiation for us to get through or better fuel for our now magnetic-field using acceptable engines to grab?<br /><br />ETA: Looks great though, doens't it? ]]>
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		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Oct 2009 12:53:34 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>warrenellis</author>
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			<![CDATA[ ap Minos: doesn't matter.  They don't fly a test article until 2013, and that test article is a 200kw drive.  The theoretical Mars trip would require an engine or engines in the 20 MEGAwatt range.  Four years, at best, to space-rate the toy version -- imagine how long it's going to take to crew-rate an interplanetary version that requires fifty times more power. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Oct 2009 13:14:32 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Ben Gwalchmai</author>
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			<![CDATA[ awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.<br /><br />Yup. I know you're right. I just want me a Mars holiday...<br /><br />A MARS HOLIDAY! Nasa needs funding - Mars chocolate bars need better advertising [and a better taste in my opinion but what the hey.] It's a match made in heaven. A MILKY WAY heaven, ah? Ah? ]]>
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		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Oct 2009 13:15:22 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Ben Gwalchmai</author>
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			<![CDATA[ *sorry, couldn't resist. Once you get started on those jokes, it's almost impossible to stop. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Oct 2009 16:04:22 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Kosmopolit</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ The Dynamite Thor thread got me thinking about Project Orion. In the Wikipedia article, there's a throw-away claim that according to Jerry Pournelle a single Orion launch would put enough stuff into orbit to build a permanent lunar base.<br /><br />That's an awfully tepting idea - I'm not a fan of atmospheric nuclear detonations but a couple of dozen of them as a one-off Then we harvest construction material on the moon, extract hydrogen and water and build Vasimir-dirve ships to zip around the solar system.<br /><br />With a decent budget all this could be done in 20 years - maybe even 10. But as things are now, we'll be lucky if we see it in our lifetimes. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Oct 2009 16:36:49 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>warrenellis</author>
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			<![CDATA[ <em >That's an awfully tepting idea - I'm not a fan of atmospheric nuclear detonations but a couple of dozen of them as a one-off </em><br /><br /><br /><strong >800</strong> detonations, in fact, to get one Orion vessel into orbit. ]]>
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		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Oct 2009 17:04:40 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>William George</author>
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			<![CDATA[ We're not going.<br /><br />Whatever species of human we create to go for us will. We humans are adapted for living on the Earth and our meat will will fail in space. We have to make spacemen to go for us.<br /><br />But even assuming we can create ships that can carry this new human wherever we send it without them dying of micro meteors, radiation, and time, there's no way we can design them well enough to integrate with whatever planetary they find themselves at. And finding a habitable planet and making it a HUMAN habitat requires terraforming. Which is another technological burden for our future space men.<br /><br />Then there's the whole problem with distance, and relativistic speeds: Space is a one way trip, no matter how you cut it. And financing, and having the material resources, and a good source of power...<br /><br />We ain't going anywhere. ]]>
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		<title>Will space travel ever be truly feasible?</title>
		<link>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=2145&amp;Focus=193230#Comment_193230</link>
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		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Oct 2009 17:15:55 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>James Puckett</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ I’m a little confused about this nuclear propulsion concept. Are the nukes actually supposed to be shot out the arse-end of the vessel and detonated behind it? So if something goes wrong we end up with massive explosion setting off all of the conventional explosives in the undetonated nukes, which at the very least spreads a not insignificant amount of radioactive dust into the atmosphere where it blows around and drifts down on everybody? ]]>
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		<title>Will space travel ever be truly feasible?</title>
		<link>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=2145&amp;Focus=193232#Comment_193232</link>
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		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Oct 2009 17:28:38 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Will Ellwood</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3Lxx2VAYi8" ></a><br /><br />Each bit of C4 would be a nuke on the full scale thing. ]]>
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		<title>Will space travel ever be truly feasible?</title>
		<link>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=2145&amp;Focus=193239#Comment_193239</link>
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		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Oct 2009 17:47:10 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>warrenellis</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ James: there's much writing about Project Orion on the web, as well as at least one good solid tv documentary.  It all makes for fascinating and rewarding reading. ]]>
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		<title>Will space travel ever be truly feasible?</title>
		<link>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=2145&amp;Focus=194824#Comment_194824</link>
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		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 18:08:55 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Phranky</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ Project Orion and the Alcubierre warp drive was mentioned (and subsequently put into practice) in the Stephen Baxter novel's 'Flood' and 'Ark'. ]]>
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		<title>Will space travel ever be truly feasible?</title>
		<link>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=2145&amp;Focus=194842#Comment_194842</link>
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		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 20:26:59 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>StefanJ</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ Didn't know about the Orion TV documentary. Based on George D.'s book?<br /><br />Bomb-drive ships feature in a lot of SF novels, some going way back.  Pohl & Williamson's <em >Farthest Star</em> was set in a gritty generation ship driven by hydrogen bombs. There was a Pournelle novel too. <em >King David's Spaceship</em> I think. ]]>
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		<title>Will space travel ever be truly feasible?</title>
		<link>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=2145&amp;Focus=194864#Comment_194864</link>
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		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 23:41:17 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>stsparky</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ @StefanJ - the Orion is the hero of Footfall by Niven & Pournelle. ]]>
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		<title>Will space travel ever be truly feasible?</title>
		<link>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=2145&amp;Focus=197971#Comment_197971</link>
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		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 01:44:01 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Kosmopolit</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ The head of the Russian space program is talking about building a <a href="http://www.physorg.com/news176033450.html" >nuclear spaceship for a Mars mission.</a><br /><br />No design details are involved but apparently it'd have a megawatt size nuclear reactor on board - so not NERVA. More likely either a nuclear-powered ion drive or a rocket system using the reactor to heat the reaction mass.<br /><br />Supposedly, the detailed design would be completed by 2012 with the ship ready to fly in 2018, all on a budget of US$600 million. ]]>
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		<title>Will space travel ever be truly feasible?</title>
		<link>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=2145&amp;Focus=197984#Comment_197984</link>
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		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 04:32:50 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Phranky</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ @Kosmopolit - ...and built by Russians. There is no way a nuclear powered spacecraft could go wrong. ]]>
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		<title>Will space travel ever be truly feasible?</title>
		<link>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=2145&amp;Focus=197994#Comment_197994</link>
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		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 05:43:51 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Kosmopolit</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ Well the Soyuz has been kicking arse and taking names for 40 years or so but that's probably because it was the last (posthumous) product of Korolev's genius. ]]>
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