Whitechapel - is it safe to be poltical? Sun, 19 May 2013 01:42:47 -0700 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.1.4 & Feed Publisher is it safe to be poltical? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6768#Comment_6768 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6768#Comment_6768 Mon, 10 Dec 2007 12:02:54 -0800 muse hick is it safe to be poltical? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6770#Comment_6770 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6770#Comment_6770 Mon, 10 Dec 2007 12:08:11 -0800 BrianKellett
(Not being snarky, just curious what your benchmark for 'being political' is). ]]> is it safe to be poltical? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6771#Comment_6771 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6771#Comment_6771 Mon, 10 Dec 2007 12:08:26 -0800 warrenellis
-- W ]]> is it safe to be poltical? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6773#Comment_6773 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6773#Comment_6773 Mon, 10 Dec 2007 12:10:54 -0800 badger is it safe to be poltical? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6776#Comment_6776 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6776#Comment_6776 Mon, 10 Dec 2007 12:14:43 -0800 BrianKellett In England it's more 'dangerous' to say that you are religious.
(Which is one of the reason why I like England - and I use England rather than UK for specific reasons.) ]]> is it safe to be poltical? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6781#Comment_6781 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6781#Comment_6781 Mon, 10 Dec 2007 12:23:53 -0800 ARES
However with each passing year I think the chance of black helicopters coming to get me increases, but that might just be due to further paranoia seeping in. ]]> is it safe to be poltical? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6782#Comment_6782 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6782#Comment_6782 Mon, 10 Dec 2007 12:25:55 -0800 Randy74
Free Speech Zones, spying on citizens,...

If the Patriot act wasn't enough now we have this :

H.R. 1955: Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism Prevention Act of 2007 ]]> is it safe to be poltical? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6793#Comment_6793 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6793#Comment_6793 Mon, 10 Dec 2007 12:57:10 -0800 muse hick is it safe to be poltical? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6796#Comment_6796 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6796#Comment_6796 Mon, 10 Dec 2007 13:16:55 -0800 Oddcult is it safe to be poltical? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6798#Comment_6798 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6798#Comment_6798 Mon, 10 Dec 2007 13:29:38 -0800 TechnocratJT
H.R. 1955 is overbroad and almost certainly unconstitutional, but have you actually felt your rights to protest being oppressed or damaged in such a way that that you are in personal danger? Right now the negative impact seems to mostly be social pressure to conform backed up by policies which undermine the public forum (such as the above free speech zones), and at the same time there is plenty of vocal opposition to such things which is stated openly and without reprisal that I can see. Danger is not the same as a climate which is harming the ideals of free exchange.

I mean, having genuine radical views and acting as a radical is always dangerous - thats what being a radical is. But I do not think you mean that. It sounds like you think that it is now dangerous to not hold the middle of the road party line, and in fact dangerous to speak your mind on a topic in a way that does not match that same view.

Its, I suppose the word is romantic in an odd way, to talk like there is danger to that now, but there is little evidence to show such danger.

My own opposition to certain policies and laws aside, no there is no real danger in the sense your implying. There is some stupid stuff going on, but the actual danger, well it pales in comparison current or historical danger faced by genuine radicals world over. I think having a sense of perspective of the real impact of current bad laws and real dangers faced elsewhere is needed to act in a decisive manner to counter the stupid choices that are being made. ]]> is it safe to be poltical? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6799#Comment_6799 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6799#Comment_6799 Mon, 10 Dec 2007 13:30:29 -0800 adrian r is it safe to be poltical? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6803#Comment_6803 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6803#Comment_6803 Mon, 10 Dec 2007 13:43:34 -0800 Randy74 is it safe to be poltical? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6807#Comment_6807 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6807#Comment_6807 Mon, 10 Dec 2007 13:55:00 -0800 muse hick i am not trying to imply here that i hold views that are any more contentious than your average person but that as the world shifts to the right does it not make even the most apparently benign opinion something that could get you in trouble if someone else has a problem with it? ]]> is it safe to be poltical? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6808#Comment_6808 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6808#Comment_6808 Mon, 10 Dec 2007 13:58:22 -0800 Randy74 is it safe to be poltical? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6811#Comment_6811 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6811#Comment_6811 Mon, 10 Dec 2007 14:01:52 -0800 TechnocratJT
But you honestly feel its dangerous to bad mouth Bush?
Honestly and actually dangerous to life and limb to hold a political opinion outside the mainstream?
Questioning 911, well Loose Change is bullshit supreme of that game, but I do not see people being arrested.

Take operation TIPS, it was attacked and assaulted on many levels from the congress to the media. People spoke up and condemned, and the postal service decided they wanted no part of such a plan. And then it died in congress.
A big brotherish plan that did not happen in part because of vocal public and private opposition makes for a poor example of the danger of being political. ]]> is it safe to be poltical? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6814#Comment_6814 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6814#Comment_6814 Mon, 10 Dec 2007 14:06:16 -0800 graphicartistx is it safe to be poltical? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6816#Comment_6816 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6816#Comment_6816 Mon, 10 Dec 2007 14:11:25 -0800 Randy74
I do feel that way, i have my own reasons for saying so and i'll leave it at that. ]]> is it safe to be poltical? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6817#Comment_6817 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6817#Comment_6817 Mon, 10 Dec 2007 14:13:02 -0800 erudite_ogre
H.R. 1955 is a step, not an objective. There is not a lot of violent political activity in the US, and homegrown terrorism has been pretty limited, so why this bill now? I'd like to find out what the impetus is behind it, because it really seems to be about creating more tension and testing the legality of certain ideas. Just another attempt to see what can be stretched legislatively. I think Orwell would be weeping with a combination of despair and wonder at what is being wrought in the U.S. in terms of the increasing consolidation of power and the deployment of cooptative propaganda. ]]> is it safe to be poltical? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6832#Comment_6832 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6832#Comment_6832 Mon, 10 Dec 2007 15:17:31 -0800 Cat Vincent "...what's really scary is how apolitical many people are."

In what sense do you mean 'apolitical'?

If you mean it in the sense of 'not trusting any party politician on principle', then that's me. If you mean in the sense of 'ignoring political actions and developments', that's not me. If you mean 'not voting', then that's me. If you mean 'oblivious to racial, class, financial and other social boundaries' that's not me. Etc.

If you use 'politics' to mean 'someone who acts in society based on their conscience and is prepared to do more than talk about it', then I'm very political. But I've never voted and unless there's someone who has to be utterly opposed, I never will (I have no faith in there ever being a UK politician who actually represents my interests!).

Perhaps it would be good to define our terms here... ]]> is it safe to be poltical? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6845#Comment_6845 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6845#Comment_6845 Mon, 10 Dec 2007 15:54:30 -0800 Paul Duffield Should this stop you? No. ]]> is it safe to be poltical? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6852#Comment_6852 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6852#Comment_6852 Mon, 10 Dec 2007 16:10:59 -0800 Cassowaries
All you really need, so long as you're not actually doing anything illegal, is to know your rights. No, the police cannot prevent you from taking their pictures, for example. If you are doing illegal things, well. Don't get caught.

I'm talking about protest and political activism, of course. As for voting, it all depends where your polling station is. At a secondary school in East London? Well, of course that's not gonna be safe. ]]> is it safe to be poltical? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6855#Comment_6855 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6855#Comment_6855 Mon, 10 Dec 2007 16:29:19 -0800 Kosmopolit
After Kruschev, there were usually at any time only a few thousand people in prison (or mental hospitals) for their political views. That's out of a population of close to 300 million. The threat of prison and death along with the other milder sanctions (like loss of work, forced relocation, denial of access to education) was enough to cow the rest of the population.

Currently, the figures for China seem to be similar, once you allow for their larger population. It's hard to tell because you can be sent away for up to three years re-education through labor without trial and without the government giving any explanation. But the Chinese too practice intimidation and denial of privileges.

America is not Russia or China, it's vastly unlikely it will ever become as bad as Russia or China. But you don;t need mass arrests and prison camps to shut people up. Harassment and the occasional examplar is all you need. Most high school kids in America aren't going to get suspended for wearing an anti-war shirt but some have been. That's all it takes to make other students (and their parents) think twice. ]]> is it safe to be poltical? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6859#Comment_6859 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6859#Comment_6859 Mon, 10 Dec 2007 16:41:42 -0800 Red Scharlach is it safe to be poltical? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6861#Comment_6861 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6861#Comment_6861 Mon, 10 Dec 2007 16:52:02 -0800 adrian r
By apolitical, I refer to those who opt out of any kind of political dialogue or acknowledgement of their influence in the world, and instead choose to behave as consumers, whether in the mainstream Daily Mail reading world, or whatever subculture they inhabit. ]]> is it safe to be poltical? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6864#Comment_6864 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6864#Comment_6864 Mon, 10 Dec 2007 17:10:54 -0800 Derleth foreign opinion of the U.S. in general.

On top of that, when I began to speak of my amusement at the concept behind issue # 0 at my LCS, I was warned that voicing that sentiment was going to cause a heated argument not wanted by the manager. ]]> is it safe to be poltical? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6868#Comment_6868 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6868#Comment_6868 Mon, 10 Dec 2007 17:23:50 -0800 Randy74
When 0 came out and sold out of over 80 in one week and all subsequent re-orders, we were laughing it up.."look on the floor, look who it is"...Thanks RYP!

We even have southern conservative republican ex-Marine whos really a nice guy who argues politics and conspiracies with me in the shop almost every wednesday, then we shake hands and laugh, becasue we are more alike than not, see thast what still gives me hope about America.

This un-named Marine reads and loves everything by Ellis, Ennis, Morrison, and Moore..arguably all counter-culture anti-establishment writers though i hate to label them as anything by uniquely individual writerss with great ideas and stories.

Thing is he knows its fiction and he undertsands the context, things that we shouldn't have to worry about discussing openly.

His only critisism levied at Black Summer was that Bush would have had a contingency group of controlled heros/villains that wouldn't have let Horus commit the act. Then he laughed, he loves the book and pretty much everything else Ellis writes. ]]> is it safe to be poltical? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6870#Comment_6870 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6870#Comment_6870 Mon, 10 Dec 2007 17:32:45 -0800 robb
maybe this is just my American education during the stuttering end of the fall of the Soviet Union, but I was under the assumption that in the Old Soviet Union, the people whom could qualify as political prisoners disappeared before becoming prisoners? ]]> is it safe to be poltical? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6873#Comment_6873 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6873#Comment_6873 Mon, 10 Dec 2007 17:42:33 -0800 Derleth
Some people understand the need for conceptual fiction, and some don't, I guess. ]]> is it safe to be poltical? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6880#Comment_6880 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6880#Comment_6880 Mon, 10 Dec 2007 18:01:30 -0800 TechnocratJT
I would argue one reason we can both discuss and try to fix the first situation (and reverse the damage the Shrub has done via laws and policy alone) is we do not have the second.

Could that latter happen? Well, sure it can happen anywhere and we have made many bad choices so the fear is understandable. However, declaring it to be the case already seems profoundly ahistorical when examples of what actual silencing of dissent by force and fear are considered. ]]> is it safe to be poltical? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6882#Comment_6882 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6882#Comment_6882 Mon, 10 Dec 2007 18:13:31 -0800 Cat Vincent Fair definition.
By those terms, I'm political. But very cynical about party politics and governance in general (I have worked in the Civil Service and seen the how-sausages-are-made horrors there) and far more inclined to support focussed work for 'fringe' issues.
And some of that stuff does has dangers - I know a lot of eco-protesters who've done jail time and an awful lot of the recent 'antiterror' laws are being aimed directly at them rather than more violence-threatening targets (such as the first case brought to force individuals to give up private computer encryption keys was against a green protester, not a Muslim). I see the legislation already in existence for a draconian hammer to just drop on UK freedoms instantly at the right excuse. These are not comfortable times to stand up and declare you're different, or that you doubt the majority paradigm. And the US is much worse. ]]> is it safe to be poltical? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6894#Comment_6894 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6894#Comment_6894 Mon, 10 Dec 2007 19:22:15 -0800 adrian r is it safe to be poltical? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6954#Comment_6954 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6954#Comment_6954 Mon, 10 Dec 2007 21:39:36 -0800 Kosmopolit
Back in the 1930's and 1940's, this was the case.

Under Kruschev in the 1950's, the system became somewhat less draconian. If you ctriricised Stalin you and your family got a bullet through the head, if you criticized Kruschev you get ten years hard labor and your family got tranferred to a collective farm in Siberia.

By the 70s and 80's the system of intimidation and endless surveillance was refined to the point where the death penalty was hardly even necessary to punish political dissent - and when it was employed it was usually against ethnic separatists in places like the Caucasus, rather than ordinary Russians. ]]> is it safe to be poltical? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6958#Comment_6958 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6958#Comment_6958 Mon, 10 Dec 2007 21:57:26 -0800 Unsub is it safe to be poltical? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6967#Comment_6967 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6967#Comment_6967 Mon, 10 Dec 2007 22:15:10 -0800 F. David Swallow II
A coworker of mine (Young, Liberal College Student), tried to insist that the current admin is almost like the nazis.

I tired to explain to him that, to be fair to all the jews out there(and peoples of Europe at the time), That no, no it isn't. He still wouldn't submit.


That said, some of these laws are definitely leaving room for them to do much more than they are(That we know of). I've at times read excerpts from the patriot act and some were pretty frightening. I remember one clause that allowed to laundered money using any name/method/reason they wanted and weren't responsible for reporting about the cash flow.

I wonder how scared they are that they might have just made Hillary the most powerful president in history. ]]> is it safe to be poltical? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6981#Comment_6981 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=6981#Comment_6981 Mon, 10 Dec 2007 23:22:43 -0800 rfrancis But do read it.

And that's how I feel about sweating whether the gov is watching me say they're doing bastardly things when they're doing bastardly things (which is to say, almost always, I suppose.) Not being fearless, just too stubborn to worry about it. ]]> is it safe to be poltical? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=7028#Comment_7028 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=7028#Comment_7028 Tue, 11 Dec 2007 04:17:59 -0800 Kosmopolit First in the UK they banned all guns

No, they didn't.

http://www.gundealer.net/

Rules on gunbuying in the UK

To buy a shotgun in Britain you need to hold a Shotgun Certificate, and to buy a rifle you need to hold a Fire Arm Certificate. You can ask for forms for these from your local police station.

Ask also to speak to your local police firearms liaison officer, who will tell you what you need to fill those forms out to his or her satisfaction. They may also want to see a 'good reason' for you wanting a gun, such as membership of a clay shooting club or pest control. They usually want to see that you will keep your gun or guns in a secure place, such as a steel gun cabinet bolted to a wall. You have to store ammunition separately.
...
Certain types of firearm are hard to obtain in Britain without a stringent Home Office licence. These include automatic weapons and most handguns.



Most British people don't so much seem to object to killing foxes (they can still be culled by farmers) as they do to torturing them to death and then ripping them apart. ]]> is it safe to be poltical? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=7067#Comment_7067 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=7067#Comment_7067 Tue, 11 Dec 2007 08:32:48 -0800 Cat Vincent
XKCD is automatic Win. That one especially. ]]> is it safe to be poltical? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=7075#Comment_7075 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=7075#Comment_7075 Tue, 11 Dec 2007 09:21:59 -0800 Brad McLoughlin don't want to be politicians. Me included...

Look at sanctimonious pricks like Michael Moore and George Clooney. Clooney has everything it takes to be a politician that the general populous would vote for (i.e. money and charisma) and y'know, he cares about global warming and Iraq, but he'd rather be partying in Vegas while filming Ocean's Thirteen. And who watched Fahrenheit 9/11 and genuinely had a massive upheaval of their belief structure? Wow, look at brave Michael, with all his noble preaching to the converted. Don't get me wrong, freedom of speech and the right to expression are probably what I believe in more than anything, but what good are they doing?

Closer to Topic:
Adrian Brody (first instance that came into my head) criticised the US army in Iraq, on stage at the Oscar's in front of millions (billions?) of people and didn't get sent to Guantanamo Bay. Kanye West, on live television, said "George Bush doesn't care about black people." and his latest record sold (looking this up now) around 2.5 million copies so far.

I think we're going to be okay.

And that XKCD strip was nice. ]]> is it safe to be poltical? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=7165#Comment_7165 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=7165#Comment_7165 Tue, 11 Dec 2007 16:31:21 -0800 Scribe
This bill really scares me, for the first time it allows Americans to be picked up and labeled as terrorists thus stripping them of their rights. Once labeled a terrorist, an American citizen can then be labeled a enemy combatant. It's bad enough that my nation does this in other Western countries, but now they want to bring it home. ]]> is it safe to be poltical? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=7166#Comment_7166 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=7166#Comment_7166 Tue, 11 Dec 2007 16:38:31 -0800 ScottBieser
Depends on what you mean by "dangerous." For the time being, being outspoken on political matters will not likely get you arrested. (Unless of course you defy local authority's bans -- however illegal -- on peaceful assembly.) It might however bring some extra attention from the sad fucks that listen in on phone conversations, depending on what views you express. On rare occasions, if you happen to fall under the penumbra of an illegal activity, the bully-boys could decide to make an example of you (c.f. Tommy Chong). Things could change for the worse in the next few years, though. Keep your ear to the ground.

In terms of job or career advancement, expressing views very far outside the mainstream of whatever industry you're in, can result in anything from losing a few useful networking contacts to losing your career, depending on the industry, and how far outside the group mind you have strayed. Although sometimes, if you are very clever about it, and really good at what you do, it can actually work to your advantage. (c.f. Alan Moore, Philip K. Dick, Chuck Dixon, Charlton Heston) ]]> is it safe to be poltical? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=7216#Comment_7216 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=7216#Comment_7216 Tue, 11 Dec 2007 22:16:14 -0800 rfrancis is it safe to be poltical? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=7219#Comment_7219 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=7219#Comment_7219 Tue, 11 Dec 2007 22:36:55 -0800 Unsub spiritual experience and came in professing to believe in intelligent design and deciding to home school his kids how would he be treated?
The supposedly egalitarian society's in the UK and academia and liberal viewpoints are as fanatical as the Jesuits were when it comes to opinions they see as heresy.
A middle eastern reporter pointed out that you would get the exact same response to a book of holocaust jokes in the west as you got to those Danish antimuslim cartoons in the middle east.

Kosmopolit ,Guns are effectively banned in the UK. Orwell said something like "the firearm in the blue collar workers house is proof of freedom" The UK has gone so far as to raid star trek nerds because they have a klingon battleth on their wall. The British Blades site is so afraid of the UK's thought police that it is a banning offence to even discuss the books Sykes and Fairbain wrote for the Commandos of WW2.

In the US they want to take your freedom out of fear and in the UK and Europe they want to take your freedom for your own good. Personally I find the motivation for fasicm immaterial. ]]> is it safe to be poltical? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=7242#Comment_7242 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=7242#Comment_7242 Wed, 12 Dec 2007 00:11:14 -0800 Kosmopolit
No they aren't there are millions of private fire-arms in the UK.

There's also a fair-sized home schooling movement which includes evangelical Christians.

The quote from Orwell you are thinking of is probably from "You and the Atom Bomb"

"It is a commonplace that the history of civilisation is largely the history of weapons. In particular, the connection between the discovery of gunpowder and the overthrow of feudalism by the bourgeoisie has been pointed out over and over again. And though I have no doubt exceptions can be brought forward, I think the following rule would be found generally true: that ages in which the dominant weapon is expensive or difficult to make will tend to be ages of despotism, whereas when the dominant weapon is cheap and simple, the common people have a chance. Thus, for example, tanks, battleships and bombing planes are inherently tyrannical weapons, while rifles, muskets, long-bows and hand-grenades are inherently democratic weapons. A complex weapon makes the strong stronger, while a simple weapon — so long as there is no answer to it — gives claws to the weak."

http://orwell.ru/library/articles/ABomb/english/e_abomb

In context he's actually saying almost the exact opposite of what you suggest i.e. that the existence of the nculear bomb means that the rifle no longer functions as a limit on despotic power. ]]> is it safe to be poltical? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=7246#Comment_7246 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=7246#Comment_7246 Wed, 12 Dec 2007 02:10:31 -0800 TechnocratJT
It is worth noting that many examples that are being pointed out now, the danger to ones career of having views outside the excepted mainstream, while entirely true, have nothing to do with any laws or policies that exist because of current administrations or fears of phantom terrorists.

It has always been the case - and I mean always as in going back as far as we have a recorded history - that holding the wrong view in a cultural niche was dangerous to your career. I am not defending that circumstance, just noting they say, for example, Scott's (and its funny, I was wondering if this topic would summon you to the board) example of Chuck Dixon (by which he means a conservative writer in a liberal community) can hardly be ascribed to anything current in the water.

And to that end, while this does represent the danger of being political, it does so in a way that underlies being outspoken and a minority voice always has a risk of being ostracized. It does not follow on the original premise in the thread that this danger has increased in the US.

Yes, I know I am being a pedant. I apologize for that, but one of my core beliefs is we are still at a point where we can fight back within the system. Moving bad current circumstances forward in our minds to a nightmare "what if" of fascism and acting like that is the case already is giving up the ghost to the assholes who want that end. ]]> is it safe to be poltical? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=7248#Comment_7248 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=7248#Comment_7248 Wed, 12 Dec 2007 02:18:33 -0800 TechnocratJT A coworker of mine (Young, Liberal College Student), tried to insist that the current admin is almost like the nazis.

I tired to explain to him that, to be fair to all the jews out there(and peoples of Europe at the time), That no, no it isn't. He still wouldn't submit.

This is a great example of what I mean by romantic (form a earlier post).

For this student I suspect this claim has a two fold effect. First, he recasts a corrupt and underhanded government as the worst possible thing he can think of in terms of all evils. So his opposition is not simply logical but heroic. Second, and I am extending here, it may free him of responsibility to actually be a radical. Radical democracy can fight a Nixon or a Shrub, where one person can make a difference. Fighting "the Nazis" is hopeless without the support of a large heroic power base. ]]> is it safe to be poltical? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=7274#Comment_7274 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=7274#Comment_7274 Wed, 12 Dec 2007 06:36:47 -0800 roque not being there-- politically and otherwise. ]]> is it safe to be poltical? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=7284#Comment_7284 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=7284#Comment_7284 Wed, 12 Dec 2007 07:32:24 -0800 cschneid
Expressing one's political views verbally does not normally result in threats to life and limb. When the US gov't does something egregiously wrong, like asserting its right to kidnap anyone anywhere for any reason, I send outraged correspondence to my elected representatives and I do not fear a knock on my door.

I have a brother-in-law who lives in a city of about 4K residents in the USA, in a "red state," which is usually described as "conservative." Expressing his Marxist philosophy in a local pub does not make him popular, garners unfriendly looks from other patrons, but he has not been harmed by them, nor by the local constabulary. ]]> is it safe to be poltical? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=7359#Comment_7359 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=7359#Comment_7359 Wed, 12 Dec 2007 12:17:09 -0800 screaming meat Precisely...what's really scary is how apolitical many people are.

Thats because it's been beaten out of us. It's presented as boring and irrelevant (when, clearly, it is not). A few years ago it was 'fashionable' for everyone to be political. Everyone and his dog jumped on the war wagon and released political songs etc (Faithless, anyone?) ]]> is it safe to be poltical? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=7408#Comment_7408 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=7408#Comment_7408 Wed, 12 Dec 2007 15:16:43 -0800 Cat Vincent is it safe to be poltical? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=7415#Comment_7415 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=7415#Comment_7415 Wed, 12 Dec 2007 15:35:32 -0800 Unsub However if you are political AND the government has a reason to think you are either a danger or could potentially be helpful in regards to some terrorism related case
whether it is true or not you are definitly in some danger. Even hardcore political people who are nonviolent have nothing more to fear than some surveillance.

The Orwellian quote I was thinking about is very close to what I said and not the one you mentioned. It is an interesting one though. Right now we are back to a war where rifles and small unit tactics are what are needed and battleships and nukes are largely superfluous. They are even bringing back the bayonet and the US army has had a SWORD made for fighting hand to hand in caves in the 21st century. Strong encryption /web based pay per view real time sat photos and propaganda sites put some very sophisticated tools into the hands of would be revolutionaries and certainly gives claws to the weak. The real arms race is who will better use these tools.

One thing we can all agree on is we are living in some interesting times. ]]> is it safe to be poltical? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=7424#Comment_7424 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=252&Focus=7424#Comment_7424 Wed, 12 Dec 2007 16:25:46 -0800 TechnocratJT government has a reason to think you are either a danger

I think this is the crux of this thread and where people disagree.

I do think right now the environment has gotten worse in terms of dangers of the US government deciding you are a danger, and pursuing innocent people because of bad information or bullshit supposition. Not as bad as some people think, but worse then it was 10 years ago, though still less dangerous then other periods of US paranoia in the 20th century. And for a quick example, you only need to look to the Black List.

Contrasted to that period, I do not think any of the dangers today have a general relation to the act of being political. In fact, I suspect, except in a few cases of people who support specific policies or organizations related to middle eastern concerns, any increased danger to freedom has little relation to intentional activism. Much more so I suspect it relates to your business dealings, your social connections, your background, and, yes as I said above, any relation - political or otherwise - to various middle eastern concerns.

Does that harm innocent people? Yes.
Is it acceptable by my standards of freedom? No.
Is it the situation this thread maintains exists. No.

And thats really the point I have been making, the question at hand was never the general "are certain liberties and freedoms being threatened in the US (and latter in the thread the UK) today?" The question was "has the specific freedom of being politically active become dangerous to act upon (with the US as the implied subject of the question)". I think most in thread answers of yes required expanding the question to the general issue.

And as I am in repeats and this thread is going under the waves, I think that calls it a day for my view. ]]>