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			<title>Whitechapel - The Death of Brass</title>
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		<title>The Death of Brass</title>
		<link>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=2852&amp;Focus=64183#Comment_64183</link>
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		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 11:34:03 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Anoxia</author>
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			<![CDATA[ Another scary story - the extinction of elements. Yeah, weird but true apparently.<br /><br /><blockquote >But now comes word that it isn’t just wildlife that can go extinct. The element gallium is in very short supply and the world may well run out of it in just a few years. Indium is threatened too, says Armin Reller, a materials chemist at Germany’s University of Augsburg. He estimates that our planet’s stock of indium will last no more than another decade. All the hafnium will be gone by 2017 also, and another twenty years will see the extinction of zinc. Even copper is an endangered item, since worldwide demand for it is likely to exceed available supplies by the end of the present century.</blockquote><br /><br />Never heard of them? Maybe not, but you're using at least one or two of them right now, just reading this post:<br /><br /><blockquote >    Gallium’s atomic number is 31. It’s a blue-white metal first discovered in 1831, and has certain unusual properties, like a very low melting point and an unwillingness to oxidize, that make it useful as a coating for optical mirrors, a liquid seal in strongly heated apparatus, and a substitute for mercury in ultraviolet lamps. It’s also quite important in making the liquid-crystal displays used in flat-screen television sets and computer monitors.<br /><br />    As it happens, we are building a lot of flat-screen TV sets and computer monitors these days. Gallium is thought to make up 0.0015 percent of the Earth’s crust and there are no concentrated supplies of it. We get it by extracting it from zinc or aluminum ore or by smelting the dust of furnace flues. Dr. Reller says that by 2017 or so there’ll be none left to use. Indium, another endangered element—number 49 in the periodic table—is similar to gallium in many ways, has many of the same uses (plus some others—it’s a gasoline additive, for example, and a component of the control rods used in nuclear reactors) and is being consumed much faster than we are finding it. Dr. Reller gives it about another decade. Hafnium, element 72, is in only slightly better shape. There aren’t any hafnium mines around; it lurks hidden in minute quantities in minerals that contain zirconium, from which it is extracted by a complicated process that would take me three or four pages to explain. We use a lot of it in computer chips and, like indium, in the control rods of nuclear reactors, but the problem is that we don’t have a lot of it. Dr. Reller thinks it’ll be gone somewhere around 2017. Even zinc, commonplace old zinc that is alloyed with copper to make brass, and which the United States used for ordinary one-cent coins when copper was in short supply in World War II, has a Reller extinction date of 2037. (How does a novel called The Death of Brass grab you?)<br /><br />    Zinc was never rare. We mine millions of tons a year of it. But the supply is finite and the demand is infinite, and that’s bad news. Even copper, as I noted above, is deemed to be at risk. We humans move to and fro upon the earth, gobbling up everything in sight, and some things aren’t replaceable.</blockquote><br /><br />Of course, these elements are not really disappearing, but they are certainly not going to be in the ground any more. We'll have to salvage stuff we already use in order to make new things... Welcome to the world of scarce natural resources folks, you better start getting used to it.<br /><br />The full story is here: http://www.asimovs.com/_issue_0806/ref.shtml ]]>
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		<title>The Death of Brass</title>
		<link>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=2852&amp;Focus=64194#Comment_64194</link>
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		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 12:11:50 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>warrenellis</author>
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			<![CDATA[ ...wow. ]]>
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		<title>The Death of Brass</title>
		<link>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=2852&amp;Focus=64197#Comment_64197</link>
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		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 12:15:30 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Rob Diston</author>
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			<![CDATA[ Amazing.  It's strange to think that we're that close to the end of resources (at least without recycling). ]]>
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		<title>The Death of Brass</title>
		<link>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=2852&amp;Focus=64207#Comment_64207</link>
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		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 12:44:35 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Anoxia</author>
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			<![CDATA[ It's terrifying isn't it? This is mostly due to things like this going completely unregulated since we first started pulling it out of the ground. Sure we checked to see if it was safe (sort of), then if we could make any use of it... At no point did we go "Hey Bob, these aren't renewable are they? Maybe we should cool it on the mining..."<br /><br />Again, a perfect example of our ignorance of all things in full effect. ]]>
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		<title>The Death of Brass</title>
		<link>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=2852&amp;Focus=64209#Comment_64209</link>
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		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 12:46:01 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>williac</author>
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			<![CDATA[ I can see a future where we use eminent domain to take over upper middle-class neighborhoods to mine the landfills they were built upon. ]]>
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		<title>The Death of Brass</title>
		<link>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=2852&amp;Focus=64210#Comment_64210</link>
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		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 12:51:32 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Anoxia</author>
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			<![CDATA[ @williac Pillaging the middle-classes is sadly a very real thing. Here in the UK there is an epidemic of people breaking into houses and stealing all the copper piping they can get their grubby mitts on. This is due to the ever-increasing demand for and price of Copper (do you see the link?) and so the resale value of 'scrap' copper has gone through the roof, meaning that it is more profitable for a burglar to steal your pipes rather than you Television. This is especially inconvenient when the thieves don't bother to turn off the water-mains and flood your house causing thousands of Pounds-worth of damage.<br /><br />Welcome to the World of Tomorrow. ]]>
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		<title>The Death of Brass</title>
		<link>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=2852&amp;Focus=64211#Comment_64211</link>
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		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 13:00:28 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>buzzorhowl</author>
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			<![CDATA[ <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/15/nyregion/15nyc.html" >Here</a> is an interesting and related link, from the New York Times. Concerning copper pennies and other low-value coins:<br /><br /><blockquote >So the penny will stick around. The real question is how to make it affordable. Sharply rising world prices in recent years for its components, zinc and copper, have made it a money loser. The same holds for the five-cent coin, made of copper and nickel.<br /><br />In the last federal fiscal year, it cost the Mint 1.67 cents to make each of the roughly eight billion pennies it churned out. In other words, taxpayers paid more than $130 million for coins valued at only $80 million. Looked at another way, even your opinions have become more expensive. It costs about 3 cents to put in your 2 cents.<br /><br />The finances of the nickel are even grimmer. Each 5-cent piece cost 9.5 cents to make last year. So more than $120 million was spent to produce about $65 million worth of that coin.<br /><br />[...]<br /><br />These losses cannot be sustained, says Edmund C. Moy, the Mint’s director. “You can’t lose money on two of our big products and hope to have a long-term viable organization,” he said.<br /><br />Mr. Moy wants Congress to give his agency more flexibility to “determine the metal content of the coins at any given time,” depending on shifting world prices, which have declined somewhat of late. One idea being considered is a copper-coated penny with a core of steel instead of zinc, as is now the case.</blockquote> ]]>
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		<title>The Death of Brass</title>
		<link>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=2852&amp;Focus=64213#Comment_64213</link>
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		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 13:02:31 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Spiraltwist</author>
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			<![CDATA[ @Anoxia<br /><em >Here in the UK there is an epidemic of people breaking into houses and stealing all the copper piping they can get their grubby mitts on.</em><br /><br />Same here. Although brand new housing developments are more likely to get broken in to, as they rarely ever have security watching the place. The scrap yards are not supposed to take any suspicious "cut" piping, but they do. ]]>
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		<title>The Death of Brass</title>
		<link>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=2852&amp;Focus=64214#Comment_64214</link>
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		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 13:02:31 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Paul Duffield</author>
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			<![CDATA[ <em >It's strange to think that we're that close to the end of resources (at least without recycling). </em><br /><br />I was going to say, this is pretty shocking, but surely to get more gallium we'll end up mining tips and extracting it from broken lcds? Is there really some process by which we irreversibly lose these elements forever? Surely all we've done is to extract them from natural locations and place them all in a refined state in larger quantities in less places? I'm willing to bet that recycling them is expensive, but I'd be surprised if it was impossible, and attaining these materials in the first place doesn't sound cheap. ]]>
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		<title>The Death of Brass</title>
		<link>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=2852&amp;Focus=64229#Comment_64229</link>
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		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 13:25:15 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Rob Diston</author>
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			<![CDATA[ <blockquote >Here in the UK there is an epidemic of people breaking into houses and stealing all the copper piping they can get their grubby mitts on</blockquote><br /><br />It's not just breaking into houses, in Plymouth brass plaques from a war memorial were stolen. ]]>
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		<title>The Death of Brass</title>
		<link>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=2852&amp;Focus=64230#Comment_64230</link>
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		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 13:30:51 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>BrianKellett</author>
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			<![CDATA[ I vaguely remember reading somewhere that Helium is running out.<br /><br />Bang goes my dream of airships everywhere.<br /><br />Continuing on the theme of recycle value - my car was stolen (for the last time, don't ask) purely because while it was an old heap of junk* it was worth a fair bit to the scrap yards.  It's gotten so bad that there are specific police teams for dealing with this crime**.<br /><br />(*But a well loved 15 year old heap of junk)<br />(**Although I had the anti-terrorist squad out looking for my car because of what was in it) ]]>
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		<title>The Death of Brass</title>
		<link>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=2852&amp;Focus=64239#Comment_64239</link>
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		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 13:44:36 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>joe.distort</author>
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			<![CDATA[ meth addicts and juggalos ( i know, i know thats a pretty big venn diagram) get busted for stealing copper all the time in phoenix. especially mesa and the westside, if you happen to know the areas of the valley thats not shocking. ]]>
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		<title>The Death of Brass</title>
		<link>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=2852&amp;Focus=64241#Comment_64241</link>
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		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 13:46:22 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>BrianKellett</author>
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			<![CDATA[ 'Juggalos' - pardon my ignorance, but isn't that something to do with the Insane Clown Posse? ]]>
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		<title>The Death of Brass</title>
		<link>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=2852&amp;Focus=64244#Comment_64244</link>
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		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 13:50:05 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Spiraltwist</author>
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			<![CDATA[ @Reynolds<br /><br />ICP probably not; probably reference to the more criminal gangs using that name in the area.<br /><br />edited - need to read the article before I post about them. ]]>
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		<title>The Death of Brass</title>
		<link>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=2852&amp;Focus=64245#Comment_64245</link>
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		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 13:53:29 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>BrianKellett</author>
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			<![CDATA[ @Spiraltwist I'm guessing that it's the American version of 'chav'.  It's just that ICP was the first place I ever heard the phrase, and then not again until the last three weeks or so where it seems to be popping up all over the place. ]]>
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		<title>The Death of Brass</title>
		<link>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=2852&amp;Focus=64246#Comment_64246</link>
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		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 13:54:46 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>joe.distort</author>
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			<![CDATA[ there is a specific breed of ICP fans in the phoenix area that are ghetto as fuck and always strung out. not all of them, but most of the ones i manage to run into... ]]>
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		<title>The Death of Brass</title>
		<link>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=2852&amp;Focus=64247#Comment_64247</link>
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		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 13:58:29 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Spiraltwist</author>
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			<![CDATA[ @Reynolds<br />Yes - Last ICP concert I went to was in Austin years ago. It was wild as fuck, outdoors and in the middle of winter.<br /><br />@joe.distort<br />That's what I've read on them - we don't seem to have too much of a problem here, that I know of. Sorry you run into the asshole version of them. ]]>
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		<title>The Death of Brass</title>
		<link>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=2852&amp;Focus=64252#Comment_64252</link>
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		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 14:03:17 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>joe.distort</author>
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			<![CDATA[ haha, its cool. i only seem to run into them at convenience stores and such, with the exception being one who is a hardcore kid that is actually cool that i hang out with at shows. and HE hates the stereotypical juggalos moreso than anyone i know!<br /><br />now back to people stealing useless shit to sell: i used to work for a doctor whom was married to a public defender. she said her most frequent cases were for people stealing loading pallettes to sell back to shiping companies. weird. ]]>
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		<title>The Death of Brass</title>
		<link>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=2852&amp;Focus=64278#Comment_64278</link>
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		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 15:58:07 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>williac</author>
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			<![CDATA[ Right next to a Starbucks drive-through:<br /><a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/williac/2637734410/" title="CUT COPPER, CUT YOUR LIFE by williac, on Flickr" ><img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3139/2637734410_1c9b5ec1f6_m.jpg" width="240" height="160" alt="CUT COPPER, CUT YOUR LIFE" ></a> ]]>
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		<title>The Death of Brass</title>
		<link>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=2852&amp;Focus=64298#Comment_64298</link>
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		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 17:41:41 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Anoxia</author>
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			<![CDATA[ @Reynolds What on *earth* did you have in your car?! - Also on a side note: I know someone who used to LARP with you back in the day, apparently. It's a fucking small world. ]]>
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		<title>The Death of Brass</title>
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		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 18:16:59 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Ben</author>
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			<![CDATA[ People steal copper here as well, though it's usually from abandonded buildings or businesses that leave that certain back door open.  I worked a sketchy labor job for a while and met someone who was doing it as a side job.  Apparently you can get three bucks a pound for stripped wire.  Who knew?<br /><br />Though I have heard stories of people blowing themselves up by trying to cut down telephone poles in northern Alberta.  Something about snipping the hold-down wires and then having the tension blow the pole up.  Microwave sized chunks of wood everywhere. ]]>
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		<title>The Death of Brass</title>
		<link>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=2852&amp;Focus=64353#Comment_64353</link>
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		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 23:16:27 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Val A Lindsay II</author>
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			<![CDATA[ I need to start putting money into stock, specifically companies going into landfill reclamation technologies, huh? ]]>
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		<title>The Death of Brass</title>
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		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Jul 2008 00:29:11 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>BrianKellett</author>
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			<![CDATA[ <blockquote >@Reynolds What on *earth* did you have in your car?! - Also on a side note: I know someone who used to LARP with you back in the day, apparently. It's a fucking small world.</blockquote><br /><br />A full ambulance uniform including the ID card that can get me into Ambulance Control, also my radiation detector.  All handy stuff if you wanted to cause havoc.  Luckily my stab vest was at work.<br /><br />And yes, it is a small world, although there is a fair degree of overlap in the comic/rpg world. ]]>
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		<title>The Death of Brass</title>
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		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Jul 2008 01:56:17 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Anoxia</author>
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			<![CDATA[ @Reynolds I can absolutely see why that would be a massive and potentially catastrophic security risk.<br /><br />@Val I was having the same thought. Sod investing in the electricity market as I had originally planned, elemental reclamation is where it's at. ]]>
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		<title>The Death of Brass</title>
		<link>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=2852&amp;Focus=64392#Comment_64392</link>
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		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Jul 2008 04:44:06 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Kosmopolit</author>
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			<![CDATA[ The world currently has around ten years worth of copper reserves.<br /><br />The world has had about ten years worth of copper reserves for the past century.<br /><br />When proven reserves decline much below ten years, the price goes up. When the price goes up, old mines re-open, prospecting increases and the reserves go up. when the reserves get much past ten years, the prices goes down...<br /><br /><blockquote >As it happens, we are building a lot of flat-screen TV sets and computer monitors these days. Gallium is thought to make up 0.0015 percent of the Earth’s crust and there are no concentrated supplies of it. We get it by extracting it from zinc or aluminum ore or by smelting the dust of furnace flues. Dr. Reller says that by 2017 or so there’ll be none left to use.</blockquote><br /><br />If we're extracting Gallium  from zinc and copper and there are still plentiful supplies of zinc and copper, how is we're about to run out of Gallium? <br /><br />Let's see Gallium makes up 0.0015% of the Earths' crust. The Earth mass is roughly 6 x 10 to the 24th power kilograms.<br /><br />So that's roughly 10 to the 19th power kilograms of Gallium of which probably 99.99% is deep in the interior of the Earth or otherwise inaccessible. That leaves 10 to the 15th power kilograms or 10 to the 12 power tonnes. That's one followed to 12 zeroes or one quadrillion tonnes. Or roughly 150,000 tonnes for every human on the planet.<br /><br />Of course there are a lot of assumptions in there so I could be wrong by a couple of orders of magnitude. There might be as little as 1,500 tonnes per person. Of which we've probably used 1-2 tonnes (much of which is available for recycling.)<br /><br /><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hafnium#Occurrence" >Hafnium </a>is probably around 40% as common as Gallium.<br /><br />Every few years since at least the 1970's someone comes up with  a story along these lines. Every time, the metallurgists, geologists,  miners and economists dismiss it out of hand.<br /><br />So far, every time, they've been proven correct.<br /><br />I worry about many, many, things. <br /><br />This isn't one of them. ]]>
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		<title>The Death of Brass</title>
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		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Jul 2008 09:06:48 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Ted</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ <blockquote >Let's see Gallium makes up 0.0015% of the Earths' crust. The Earth mass is roughly 6 x 10 to the 24th power kilograms.</blockquote><br /><br />The most obvious flaw in your argument is your rather bizarre assumption that the Earth's crust is the same as the Earth, which is really skewing your maths.  The crust is a small fraction of the mass of the full planet, especially when you consider the crust is the lightest stuff that's basically floating on the top of the dense mantle.  I believe the density of the crust is something like half that of the mantle, and the crust is <em >far</em> thinner.  I'm not going to even attempt the maths myself, since I'll be bound to get it wrong, but I'm pretty sure it's not nearly as optimistic a picture as you're painting. ]]>
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		<title>The Death of Brass</title>
		<link>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=2852&amp;Focus=64427#Comment_64427</link>
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		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Jul 2008 09:16:26 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>buzzorhowl</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ Also, when we've got a situation where A) pennies cost more to make than they're worth, and B) people are stealing copper pipes out of buildings that people are still living in because copper is just THAT VALUABLE, it's a problem that we need to deal with, regardless of how likely it is that there will be zinc/copper/gallium left in a century or not.<br /><br />Besides, this argument:<br /><br /><blockquote >The world currently has around ten years worth of copper reserves.<br /><br />The world has had about ten years worth of copper reserves for the past century.<br /><br />When proven reserves decline much below ten years, the price goes up. When the price goes up, old mines re-open, prospecting increases and the reserves go up. when the reserves get much past ten years, the prices goes down...</blockquote><br /><br />...has the obvious flaw that those supplies are finite, and will run out eventually no matter what. Also, the flaw that the reason those old copper mines are opening back up is because the expense of extracting the more difficult-to-extract copper deposits in them has become profitable, where before it wasn't profitable to extract them. Regardless of day to day fluctuations in copper price, if you see something like that happening, it indicates an overall upward trend in the price of copper, one that is unlikely to change, since as I pointed out, the supplies of copper are finite. ]]>
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		<title>The Death of Brass</title>
		<link>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=2852&amp;Focus=64437#Comment_64437</link>
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		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Jul 2008 09:59:03 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>bjacques</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ I work for a large telecom/ISP. We lost a backbone link all of a sudden, and had to reroute traffic a couple of days until it was fixed. Turns out some gypsies found a clever way to steal copper cable. They got caught, which is how Iwe learned the story. Some telecoms take advantage of railroad rights of way to string cable. The gypsies would dig up about a quarter mile or so of cable, lift the cable onto the tracks, then wait for a train to come along. Then they'd tie a rope to the middle of it and tow it away to a field and roll it up.<br /><br />When they learned it was worthless fiber instead of copper, were their faces red! ]]>
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		<title>The Death of Brass</title>
		<link>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=2852&amp;Focus=64618#Comment_64618</link>
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		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Jul 2008 17:00:55 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Kosmopolit</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ "The most obvious flaw in your argument is your rather bizarre assumption that the Earth's crust is the same as the Earth, which is really skewing your maths. The crust is a small fraction of the mass of the full planet, especially when you consider the crust is the lightest stuff that's basically floating on the top of the dense mantle. I believe the density of the crust is something like half that of the mantle, and the crust is far thinner. I'm not going to even attempt the maths myself, since I'll be bound to get it wrong, but I'm pretty sure it's not nearly as optimistic a picture as you're painting."<br /><br />Both Gallium and Hafnium are denser than Ieon and Silicon the main components of both the Earth's crust and the underlying maga. Hence if the word crust is indeed to be understood in the restricted sense you mean, the crust should actually be Gallium and Hafnium depleted compared with the entire volume of the planet.<br /><br />You may note that I firstly assumed the 99.99% of the Earth's mass making up the Magma and the lower mantle was inaccessible and then reduced my results by a further factor of 100.<br /><br />Let's look at it this way - the bit of the Earth's crust accessible for mining is a hollow spheriod 3 kilometres thick,  6,400 kilometres in radius  80% of that is covered by ocean or icecaps so let's throw that out. I get a volume for the crust of around 370 million cubic kilometres. 0.0015% of that is around 5,000 cubic kilometres of Gallium. 20% of that is 1000 cubic kilometres or a cube 10 kilometres on each face with a weight of approximately 6 trillion tonnes - which is still around 1,000 tonnes for every human on the planet. ]]>
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		<title>The Death of Brass</title>
		<link>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=2852&amp;Focus=64636#Comment_64636</link>
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		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Jul 2008 17:14:52 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Kosmopolit</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ "...has the obvious flaw that those supplies are finite, and will run out eventually no matter what. "<br /><br />In that the Errth is finite in volume this is correct. Of course, the Earth is also a closed system (kinda we shoot some stuff off it; bits get blown off by meteor strikes; the solar wind strips soem of the atmosphere; about 100- tonnes of asteriodal material land on the planet every day), we will not run out copper or any other material provided we have the energy and technology to recycle it.<br /><br />More broadly - the world's supply of oil is finite; so is the Sun's supply of fusible matter. We worry about the first because we're likely to deplete msot of the reserves within our lifetimes. We don't worry as much about the latter. <br /><br />For around two hundred years, the market prices of copper, iron and most other metals fell in inflation-adjusted terms. Over the same period, the average grades of mining ores also fell. But technology made it possible to not only extract metals from lower-grade ores but to do it more cheaply. Prices fell so low in the 1980's and 1990's that virtually no major new mines were developed. Combined with the boom in demand from China and India, that pushed prices back up.  Prices will probably start to come, down again in a couple of years. ]]>
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		<title>The Death of Brass</title>
		<link>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=2852&amp;Focus=64662#Comment_64662</link>
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		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Jul 2008 18:06:56 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>howyadoin</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ <blockquote >Here in the UK there is an epidemic of people breaking into houses and stealing all the copper piping they can get their grubby mitts on.</blockquote>Lots of that shit goin' on here, too. If word gets out that my bar has a copper top, I could be in trouble. ]]>
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		<title>The Death of Brass</title>
		<link>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=2852&amp;Focus=64853#Comment_64853</link>
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		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jul 2008 03:25:54 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Anoxia</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ @Kosmopolit I'm glad to see that you have so much faith in that we will put as much effort into recycling what we've already used as the effort we put into mining, because our track record with that kind of thing so far as been great. If only our will and enthusiasm for recycling matched that of our enthusiasm for exploiting all possible natural resources. I'm afraid I do not share your optimistic outlook.<br /><br />Eventually demand will out-strip supply, as the standard of living across the world increases in an uneven fashion. As the consumer habits of people in different countries change, it will ensure that there will not be enough of everything to share around. This leads me to the following questions: Does the technology to recycle some of these materials even exist? If it does, how difficult or costly is it? If it doesn't, how much and how long will it take to develop such things? Who on Earth is going to take this research on or has someone already started looking into it? ]]>
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		<title>The Death of Brass</title>
		<link>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=2852&amp;Focus=64859#Comment_64859</link>
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		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jul 2008 03:55:28 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Kosmopolit</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ "I'm glad to see that you have so much faith in that we will put as much effort into recycling what we've already used as the effort we put into mining, because our track record with that kind of thing so far as been great"<br /><br />Well currently the US gets the majority of its copper every year from recycling rather than from mines. ]]>
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		<title>The Death of Brass</title>
		<link>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=2852&amp;Focus=64860#Comment_64860</link>
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		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jul 2008 03:59:54 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Ben</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ @howyadoin<br /><br />Unless your bar has a two inch thick copper slab, I think you are safe from people trying to bust into your personal space. ]]>
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		<title>The Death of Brass</title>
		<link>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=2852&amp;Focus=64892#Comment_64892</link>
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		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jul 2008 08:10:34 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Anoxia</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ @Kosmopolit I was not referring to copper as I am aware of the already established practices of recycling for it, hence my comment about people stealing it. I was referring to other materials. ]]>
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		<title>The Death of Brass</title>
		<link>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=2852&amp;Focus=64917#Comment_64917</link>
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		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jul 2008 09:28:44 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>howyadoin</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ @ Ben<br /><br />It's not <strong >solid</strong> copper, but it amounted to $500 worth back when I built the bar (4 years ago):<br /><br /><a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/howyadoin/103349322/" title="My Bar by howyadoin, on Flickr" ><img src="http://farm1.static.flickr.com/38/103349322_6ec4868926_o.jpg" width="600" height="369" alt="My Bar" ></a> ]]>
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		<title>The Death of Brass</title>
		<link>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=2852&amp;Focus=64924#Comment_64924</link>
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		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jul 2008 09:40:13 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Alastair</author>
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			<![CDATA[ Worth every penny by the looks of it ]]>
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		<title>The Death of Brass</title>
		<link>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=2852&amp;Focus=64953#Comment_64953</link>
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		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jul 2008 11:35:03 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>howyadoin</author>
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			<![CDATA[ Oh yeah, no regrets. ]]>
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		<title>The Death of Brass</title>
		<link>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=2852&amp;Focus=64955#Comment_64955</link>
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		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jul 2008 11:46:57 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>James Puckett</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ I think that they’re just made of steel, but in Baltimore people actually steal manhole covers and have even cut down streetlights. <br /><br />It seems like recycling corporations make a brilliant long-term investment. Alcoa will remain the great blue chip is has always been due to Aluminum being the grand poobah of recyclables, but eventually strip mining our own landfills will be generating a ton of cash for whoever can manage the process at a profit. And whoever makes the robots that can handle the hazardous mess will be siphoning off a lot of that money! Of course, that all assumes nanotech geeks don’t figure out ways to build absolutely everything out of carbon sucked from the atmosphere by genetically-engineer super bamboo. ]]>
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		<title>The Death of Brass</title>
		<link>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=2852&amp;Focus=65087#Comment_65087</link>
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		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jul 2008 20:00:37 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>Kosmopolit</author>
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			<![CDATA[ James,<br /><br />More likely the electronic companies will generously offer to provide "take-back" services for old equipment as an environmental measure then strip out everything of value. ]]>
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		<title>The Death of Brass</title>
		<link>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=2852&amp;Focus=66184#Comment_66184</link>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 06:31:26 -0700</pubDate>
		<author>bjacques</author>
		<description>
			<![CDATA[ In the Netherlands, electronics shops take back your old TV, stereo, whatever, when you buy a new one, but sock you for €8 or so. Or you can leave it outside on trash night for scavengers to take or bored kids to kick to pieces. I used to leave old PCs outside (I live in central Amsterdam) because the first one I used here was a foundling, but lately the scavengers just strip them for RAM and maybe a video card, then leave the rest. ]]>
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