Whitechapel - The Ebon Shelf and the Nature of Magick

The Ebon Shelf and the Nature of Magick

Kinesys — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 13:31:21 -0800

I started a joke that started the whole world crying...

Actually, I started a Livejournal community called the Ebon Shelf.
It's URL, Let me show you it: http://community.livejournal.com/ebon_shelf/

The whole premise of the thing was very simple. I like having interesting props to hand my players in various role playing games and Larps. It occured to me to make a slush pile of "Magick related" text for slipping into documents (with some "Lorem Ipsem" text to fill space in whatever i handed them.) Possibly with some interesting mystick related artwork. And i could always create plots based on the various pieces of micro-to-short fiction that i'd made.

And as i've gone along, the project has gained a little heft. Because i kept fiddling with it. It's even become a bit of a compendium of my own attitudes and ideas. in the field of magick.

I am however curious about the attitudes and ideas of the people on this board. Probably one of the largest assemblages of crinkly-minded folk on the internet.
Maybe if only because i'm at the point where i may need someone or something to bounce off of, in order to get rolling on the project again.

The Ebon Shelf and the Nature of Magick

hank — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 14:39:08 -0800

I actually have either cribbed ritual or written ritual for my players. Occasionally I dump it into something like Theban or Enochian just to fuck with them, and givethem a mental work out.

It all really depends on the players and their aptitude. I may start them out with the lesser pentagram or something similar and move them through an adjusted Goetic rite. Again YMMV.

Good stuff though!

The Ebon Shelf and the Nature of Magick

Kinesys — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 20:22:08 -0800

Thank you Hank. I appreciate the kind words.
Since no one has yet seen fit to throw any of their ideas into my soup kettle, I may see how far i can push this material and the Lulu publish it at some point.

But the main point of this discusion was to hopefully get at some discussion of Magick and the various philosophies driving it.

See. I'm fascinated by Belief. What is it in a persons make-up that makes them take up snakes as a means of celebrating their faith in the LORD (or whomever)?
What is it that drives Atheism and Paganism and Zen Chicken Worship?

That's the discussion i'm kind of hoping to have. Because i figure that can only spur the other and maybe teach me some new stuff along the way.

The Ebon Shelf and the Nature of Magick

hank — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 07:34:28 -0800

Ah cool. I am not sure if I am letting my freak flag fly too far here, but we will see.

I subscribe to Thelema, which is a nice container for the belief that the True Will is something to be discovered, and that the Will when applied for effect can make changes in the universe. Never big sweeping changes, but ones that in the end can make a difference.

I am a member of the Ordo Templi Orientis, a fraternal magician's order with roots in the Golden Dawn and other esoteric groups. Many of the members of this group are also part of the Ecclesia Gnostica Catholica (E.G.C.), or the Gnostic Catholic Church, and participate in a number of rites including the primary Mystery of both orders The Gnostic Mass. If you want a mission statement check out Liber OZ. Granted there are parts I do not agree with nor does it have to be taken literally for the most part but it sums up the views of the Order in a nutshell.

Most of what is in the mass has double and triple meanings, so take what you read with a grain of salt.

Anyway I don't want to sound like some damn proselyte. This was just a reply more in line (I hope) with what you were looking for.

The Ebon Shelf and the Nature of Magick

gdwessel — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 09:00:29 -0800

Say you have a passing interest in magick, and you want to know more, or even perhaps begin to practice, without coming off as the inevitable poseur schmuck as you will when first starting.

What would you recommend to get started?

The Ebon Shelf and the Nature of Magick

hank — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 10:15:49 -0800

(some of the more general personal favorites of mine follow:)
Isreal Regardie's The Golden Dawn, The Middle Pillar, and Garden of Pomegranates have all been useful to me. Agrippa's Three Books of Occult Philosophy, Lon Milo Duquette's The Magick of Aleister Crowley (used to be Magick of Thelema,) The Chicken Qabalah of Rabbi Lamed Ben Clifford: Dilettante's Guide to What You Do and Do Not Know to Become a Qabalist, Understanding Aleister Crowley's Thoth Tarot: An Authoritative Examination of the World's Most Fascinating and Magical Tarot Cards, (this is indispensable for its deep examination of the Thoth Deck and the ideas behind the illustrations.) and his bio My Life with Spirits are all good books.

I would say probably get as much info on the basics through The Golden Dawn Book and then move over into what interests you. The Agrippa Stuff is dry but full of concepts. Elphias Levi is good too, if dry. I tend to discard the Cicero stuff that gets appended to many of the Regardie books but the original material is accessible and a good base.

Some links which contain huge amounts of information:

http://www.hermetic.com/
http://www.sacred-texts.com/

best of all that stuff is provided free of charge via the web.

Some Groups to Check out

OTO (linked Above)
Ancient Mystical Order Rosae Crucis
Golden Dawn (Google them you will find a pile)
The Argentum Astrum (Hermetic Magick without the fraternal society of the OTO. This is a solitary path and the individual is expected to self direct and create their own conclusions and experimentations.)

Most of all read and devour all knowledge you can, try to expand your horizons and don't stop asking questions.

The Ebon Shelf and the Nature of Magick

Kinesys — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 11:39:20 -0800

GDwessel: The main difficulty in any pursuit of magickal praxis, hermetic or otherwise is that there isn't any kind of standard modern work that boils down the major concepts for the modern mind. Once, an understanding has been reached, it's always easier to go back and look at older works and absorb what is useful from them. Unfortunately, only the obverse is true. At this point one can only look at the older work and try to translate it into modern understanding, strip mining what is useful from it as you go.

There are however a few works that are considered standard work within their field that you can parse a lot from. Buckland's book on witchcraft is invaluable if you're just getting your feet wet with paganism.

Hank: You know, i kind of consider Crowley to be one of my patron saints, but i've only read a few of his books. I wonder if there's an OTO chapter here in Ky.

The Ebon Shelf and the Nature of Magick

hank — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 11:56:29 -0800

Louisville KY

Don't know any of them personally, but I am sure they are a welcoming bunch.

The Ebon Shelf and the Nature of Magick

Kinesys — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:28:27 -0800

Hmm. I get to Louisville every so often.

The Ebon Shelf and the Nature of Magick

Oddcult — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:34:04 -0800

I miss Tim Maroney. Get thee to his website. He used to hang out in a place that was a bit like this once and had many interesting things to say. I genuinely wish he was here. Anyway...

Buckland's book on witchcraft is invaluable if you're just getting your feet wet with paganism.

ARRRGH! NO! THIS ISN'T GOOD ADVICE! Buckland deliberately left out loads of stuff, so as not to break oaths, but then filled in the gaps with bad history. His stuff is okay, once you actually know a bit more, but it's not what it says it is.

There are very, very few good books on witchcraft and paganism. Avoid anything published by Llewellyn Press. Actually, avoid anything that's written by any American, except for one very good beginners' book called 'Where to park your broomstick', which whilst a 'teen witch' book actually displays a surprising level of knowledge on the part of the author.

If you actually want to really find out about contemporary Witchcraft then Professor Ronald Hutton's The Triumph of The Moon is the seminal work. If you want to find out about the origins of Witchcraft then Owen Davies' 'Cunning Folk' is very, very good and lends a lot of credibility to the idea that there is a rich and varied history of folk magic in the UK, which wasn't all just the invention of bored civil servants in the 1940s, just that there was nothing pagan about it whatsoever.

Doreen Valiente is about the only other author I could recommend in good conscience.

Although, if you don't give that much of a fuck about all that, and just want something authentic looking, to add colour, then there are more than a few facsimile copies of old grimoires available. Just have a browse on Amazon. Or look up some Hoodoo stuff. That's quite cool. I wonder if Stephen Grasso is going to turn up here...

The Ebon Shelf and the Nature of Magick

warrenellis — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:41:28 -0800

I think everyone still misses Tim, awkward git that he was. I get angry every time I think about how he died.

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Kinesys — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 13:33:20 -0800

Oops. Well to be fair, i only got my feet wet with paganism. I didn't exactly delve too deep.
Was not aware that the book had major gaps. Consider my endorsment rescinded.

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hank — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 13:33:56 -0800

I would like to disagree with you assessment of Llewellyn since they have most of Isreal Regardie's stuff on contract as well as a nice single volume of Agrippa. I think a better bit of advice would be "caveat emptor" with their stuff. Most of it IS tripe, but Regardie is pretty well regarded as a good place to start.

The Ebon Shelf and the Nature of Magick

gdwessel — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 13:37:07 -0800

Oh Hell, I guess I'll just hunt down Grant Morrison's DISINFOCON talk :-P

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hank — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 13:37:19 -0800

Wow. I am sad that I never got to meet Mr. Maroney, I think we would have found much to talk about and some in common.

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Kinesys — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 13:38:48 -0800

His essay on forms of divinations is Interesting. Nice linkage!

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Oddcult — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 13:50:53 -0800

I would like to disagree with you assessment of Llewellyn since they have most of Isreal Regardie's stuff on contract

Those versions are still fairly poorly edited down from the originals, as I understand it. Although, perhaps it would be better to have said 'avoid anything originating from Llewellyn'.

Buckland's stuff doesn't so much have gaps, but when he's claiming something is Saxon or Pictish, that's when he's, to be blunt, making shit up instead of revealing oathbound material. However, even by the time he was writing, the oathbound stuff was in the public domain, so it's kinda pointless.

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Kinesys — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 13:57:23 -0800

One of the elements of the Ebon Shelf is that i'm writing a diary of a practicing magus named Emile Belasco and this where my own attitudes about magick tend to come out. This is of course one of the reasons for this thread like for instance:
There are only 3 pre-requisites for magick as near as i can tell.

First you must have will. Will is essential. Magick is powered in all ways by the essential energy of emotions. Emotions are fluid, squidgy things and as a result, you must have will to hone them, and shape them, and focus them.

Next, you must have imagination. Will is pointless without direction, vision, and a desire to create.

And third, and perhaps most important, you must have patience. Patience is necessary for scholarship, for examining your own intent for purity, and for the gathering of power. Also: Magick tends to work on it's time frame, not ours.

In this way, magick is like a 3 legged stool. Attempt to sit on a stool with one or more of the legs missing and you'll end up on your ass.

Note that Ethics, Morals, Common Sense, or even knowing what you are doing are NOT necessary to the practice of Magick.

There are many people who use magick in their day to day lives without even knowing that they are doing so. I'm not talking about reading one's thrice-damned horoscope. I am talking about the simplest acts of will and imagination and patience. Getting through a bad work day, baking a cake with any degree of facility, writing a sonnet, or any number of things we take for granted.

The Ebon Shelf and the Nature of Magick

Oddcult — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 14:16:30 -0800

Are you lot aware of the Chemical Wedding film that's in production? Written by a British Midlands airline pilot, it's got Simon Callow in as some kind of re-incarnation of Crowley.

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Kinesys — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 15:57:27 -0800

No. Dish, spill, tell.

The Ebon Shelf and the Nature of Magick

JaredRules — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:24:44 -0800

This is great. Magick is one of those things that I've always wondered about, but it's like "Where do I even start?"

The Ebon Shelf and the Nature of Magick

Fauxhammer — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 18:01:28 -0800

I'd been kicking around joining the OGD for a while.

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Kinesys — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 22:15:31 -0800

A magickal Premise, cribbed from the White Dharma:

There are two forms, two branches in the craft of magic.

First, there is the external form. To grasp the world at it's root and shake it. To demand by means of words that the world cannot ignore, that which is desired in the secret heart.

This path is perilous but easy.
To beat the drum, to sing the song, to say the words, to inscribe the signs. These are all the simplest of exercises. The world responds to their inherent power. But the way is perilous. The maker of the ritual must be pure in heart, must be cleansed of intent other than his own. His mind must be focused. His power must be concentrated, and in many case there will be changes wrought that were not intended. This is why the path of external magic is fraught with danger. But there will never be few magi who tread it.

Next, there is the internal path. The desire to create changes in oneself. To make the psyche into clay for molding, to make the soul into water for [untranslatable]. It is by this path alone, one may live in harmony with the world and oneself.

This path is sure, but it is hard.
To walk the path, To say only what is needed. To live within a plan, to carry the burdens of the world is the hardest of work. It can be laid aside at a moment's notice. It can thrown aside with great force as frustrations mount. But to find that strength within and change a lifetime of habit is the greatest form of magic, and i commend it to any sorceror or lama willing to study it's inherent nature.

Questions? Comments?

The Ebon Shelf and the Nature of Magick

Paul Duffield — Fri, 30 Nov 2007 03:37:43 -0800

Wow, interesting thread! Please forgive any ignorance I show, because right now, on this subject I'm about 99.9% ignorant, and would love to become less so :D My only core beliefs are that I can never know enough, never challenge myself enough, and that knowledge and self-knowledge are useless without considered and positive application in everyday life.
"Next, there is the internal path. The desire to create changes in oneself. To make the psyche into clay for moulding"
To me, this sounds like the thing that lies at the root of many different philosophies, religions and meditations (The Tao being a good example)... is magick just another way towards it, or am I way off the mark?

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Oddcult — Fri, 30 Nov 2007 05:19:48 -0800

Chemical Wedding Film

The Ebon Shelf and the Nature of Magick

hank — Fri, 30 Nov 2007 08:06:31 -0800

Paul, there is a lot of eastern philosophy in western magickal theory.

Many people follow the path for different reasons. I follow it to find my True Will and maybe tap a part of my Self that is there but I don't get to use frequently. I have heard it called the Holy Guardian Angel, the Genius and other names. I imagine that the Tao is also a good name for it.

The Ebon Shelf and the Nature of Magick

wesunruh — Fri, 30 Nov 2007 09:02:51 -0800

speaking of chemical wedding, you familiar with The Red King? Takes alchemical ritual into music/theater in a very profound way.

on topic though, I find that while generally "Avoid anything published by Llewellyn Press" is decent advice, don't overlook Aaron Leitch's book Secrets of the Magickal Grimoires. It's refreshing and well-written, incredibly comprehensive

Think of it as similar to AJ Jacobs 'The Year of Living Biblically' but applied to various grimoires rather than the Torah, and I suspect it would make for a great swipe file for your research, Kinesys

The Ebon Shelf and the Nature of Magick

Kinesys — Fri, 30 Nov 2007 10:23:01 -0800

(mental Note: Get Chemical Wedding ASAP. Also: check occult library for Llewellyn Press titles. Also Secrets of the Magickal grimoires. Get second job to pay for books. Sigh heavily...)

One of the reasons that i think that Crowley is so important to the study of Magick, is that he sort of codified the Internal approach, a lot of folk suppose that if magick exists at all, it's primary purpose is for the user to bend the laws of causality over the coffee table and have their nasty way with it. Crowley came at it from the other side of the equation. "What's easier? changing the world to suit you? Ot changing yourself?" I'm betting that the premise existed beforehand, but it's the first time I ever saw it in western metaphysical literature.

One of the things that i like about this board already is that the people on it have very protean minds. I suspect that a protean worldview and mindset is a function of evolution (on some level) and will usher us into a new age at some point. Perhaps an age where the line between science and magick becomes increasingly thin.

The Ebon Shelf and the Nature of Magick

matt bevilacqua — Fri, 30 Nov 2007 12:14:14 -0800

I've only been screwing around with magick type stuff for a short time, but I think what's helped me the most is the work of Phil Hine. Chaos magick and all that. Condensed Chaos is an extremely fast and easy read which will help get you in the kind of mindset that you need to approach magickal work. There are excerpts on Phil Hine's website.

Being a product of a Catholic education, I was reluctant to embrace something like Thelema, which from what I understand is fairly dogmatic and heavy on ritual, whereas Chaos magick is very pragmatic and practical. Central is the idea that beliefs are tools which are interchangeable. (I suppose this is the protean mindset spoken of above.)

The best part is when it essentially becomes a creative endeavor, designing your own rituals and attaching your own symbolism to them. That's what I really enjoy about magick. The hard part is finding people to dress in funny clothes with you.

(Also worthwhile is Grant Morrison's simple instructions on sigils and evocation from the Disinfo book on the occult. I'm not sure if this is available online for free.)

The Ebon Shelf and the Nature of Magick

Kinesys — Fri, 30 Nov 2007 12:49:15 -0800

I have a sneaking suspicion that symbols themselves are only useful insofar as they help to focus the will.That the symbols themselves aren't particularly potent in and of themselves. I find that on the rare occasions that i work magick, that it is all about the focus and emotional content.

Which has got me wondering.
I was watching a documentary on the occult roots of the nazi party. It turns out that Theosophy spurred on the Aryan volkische movement. That after WW1, Occult groups flourished in germany and the original national socialist party started out as a workers auxilliary part of the Thule Brudeshcaft. (Read=Private Army)
The SS was in effect an Inner Circle within the Reichstag, It was also organized along occult lines. As a sort of mystickal teutonic knighthood. Based in Wewelsburg Castle, they stretched tendrils wide across the nazi empire.

It is interesting to speculate as to the ultimate occult purpose of all this work. One can posit that the concentration camps were a means to harvest the death agonies and the day to day miseries of those who were interned there. Large magnitudes of focused emotional energy stored and directed by Reich Adepts.

Too bad nobody told them about the three-fold law.

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hank — Fri, 30 Nov 2007 15:18:50 -0800

Matt, actually Thelema doesnt have a lot of Dogma, at least not like the Christian world has. (Using the following definition of dogma:
noun
1. a religious doctrine that is proclaimed as true without proof
2. a doctrine or code of beliefs accepted as authoritative; "he believed all the Marxist dogma" )

You are encouraged to question and experiment, and Myself i use pretty pragmatic tools for the most part but can get the Ritual stuff going when I need to drag others into the same current for a working.

Eseentially: whatever works for you.

The Ebon Shelf and the Nature of Magick

Kinesys — Sat, 01 Dec 2007 06:20:30 -0800

Thelema: The Jeet Kune Do of Metaphysics.

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cjh — Sat, 01 Dec 2007 08:24:53 -0800

As intro books I try to recommend the following three (not in order of importance):

Real Magic by Isaac Bonewits. Yeah, he's a bit of a nutter and one of those polarizing folks in magic/paganism/occult whatevering but I do think that he has some good, solid ideas in this book. Like with anything of this "field," you pick and choose what works best for you.

Starhawk's Drawing Down The Moon isn't some occult primer, but instead it's an overview of the people in this "world," sort of like a real world Books of Magic (but with less Phantom Stranger unfortunately). It gives a fairly good idea of who's who and what they think, along with the communities that gather around them. Obviously a bit out of date these days, but still some good information in it.

Finally (and last but not least) is Robert Anton Wilson's Cosmic Trigger. I know, it's a bit cliched these days but I think that it is really under appreciated for the important stuff in it, rather than those who read it or just put it on their bookshelf because it has Wilson's name on it

After that, I just suggest looking for a tradition that appeals to your inner self. Because I prefer a more eclectic approach to things, I season with the usual Crowley, Maya Deren's Divine Horsemen, Budge's works on Egypt and a little bit of Regardie. Find what works best for you is what I say.

The Ebon Shelf and the Nature of Magick

Oddcult — Sat, 01 Dec 2007 08:29:50 -0800

I was watching a documentary on the occult roots of the nazi party. It turns out that Theosophy spurred on the Aryan volkische movement. That after WW1, Occult groups flourished in germany...

... Large magnitudes of focused emotional energy stored and directed by Reich Adepts.

Too bad nobody told them about the three-fold law.

Not wanting to get personal, but there's so much wrong with this, I'm gonna have to wade in.

Documentaries about the occult roots of the Nazi party are bollocks. The Theosophy link was pretty much down to Himmler linking it the pure Aryan master race thing with Himalayan tribes, and thinking there might be some remnants of them around the world. Possible in a hole in the Arctic.

This article is where you need to start. Hitler barely tolerated HImmler's slightly odder ideas, and had virtually no interest in the Occult himself. Really. Raiders of the Lost Ark, Hellboy, Wolfenstein games etc etc are great fun, but there's nothing in reality to base them on.

Now, Britain, however, really did have lots of magical and occult stuff being put towards the war effort. Even possibly to the extent of willing human sacrifice. Seriously.

The threefold law is a load of bollocks too. Sorry, but its origins are traceable to a conversation in a pub between Gerald Gardner and Austin Osman Spare. Loads of Wiccan high priestesses were falling out with each other and there were inter-coven arguments aplenty, resulting in curses being chucked about all over the place. A 'what the hell can we do about this' discussion, probably in the Plough on Museum Street in London, led to Ye Ancient Three-fold Law as a solution:

"Oi, ladies! We've just found a hitherto unrevealed piece of ancient lore! Stop cursing each other, or the curse will come back to you three times. Got that? Right. Now get yer kit off and let's whip each other. Sorted."

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Oddcult — Sat, 01 Dec 2007 08:30:38 -0800

Starhawk's Drawing Down The Moon

Margot Adler, shurley?

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Hellstorm — Sat, 01 Dec 2007 08:39:34 -0800

I started out reading as much Isreal Regardie, Aleister Crowley and Golden Dawn as I could find. Then I discovered Modern Magick by Donald Michael Kraig, which is an excellent primer for anyone interested in Magick. It covers history, theory and practice in "High Magick" (Golden Dawn/Qabalah/Crowley) and "Low Magick" (Wicca/Paganism/Shamanism), Tantra, Grimoires, various methods of divination, addresses many modern criticisms of "classic" occult writers, and has a recommended reading section with comprehensive explanations why you should read those books.

Just as I was moving away from "High Magick" and developing an interest in Shamanism, I was introduced to Chaos Magick in Grant Morrison's Invisibles letter column. Little did I know that the path I was intuitively heading down already had a variety of maps (thanks Grant). I started with Liber Kaos and Liber Null & Psychonaut by Peter J. Carroll, followed by some free e-books (PDFs) from Phil Hine's website at http://www.philhine.org.uk/writings/index_e-books.html

The Chicken Qabalah is a great book. It's as if Douglas Adams wrote a Qabalistic text, though it's probably less funny if you're not reasonably familiar with the Qabalah already.

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cjh — Sat, 01 Dec 2007 08:51:31 -0800

Margot Adler, shurley?

I'm sorry, that is indeed correct. Unfortunately my copy is on loan right now and I was "drawing" the author's name from memory.

Not to belittle Starhawk's writing.

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Kinesys — Sat, 01 Dec 2007 09:18:11 -0800

Documentaries about the occult roots of the Nazi party are bollocks. The Theosophy link was pretty much down to Himmler linking it the pure Aryan master race thing with Himalayan tribes, and thinking there might be some remnants of them around the world. Possible in a hole in the Arctic.

Beg to differ. The Thule Society was the result of a merger of two cults made up of wealthy germans, many of whom were involved in the publishing business.(The magazine Ostara was a volkische propaganda outlet of this group and it's work heavily influenced hitler. These are the people who funded the Nazi party and got it up and running.

Granted, Hitler did cool on some of the more outre elements of the occult towards the end. Especially when an astrologer (who was working as a spy for britain) convinced rudolf hess that he could singlehandedly negotiate a treaty with scotland. Which is where he got caught by allied forces.

As far as the Threefold law goes, it may be bollocks, but it's still a damn good guideline.

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Oddcult — Sat, 01 Dec 2007 11:32:27 -0800

The only problem with that is that, pop culture aside, the Thule society was influenced by mythology, but that's as far as it went. It had been disbanded by the mid 30s, anyway. No arcane rituals. No demonicaly powered assassins. Just a bunch of racists using mythology to justify themselves.

British Intelligence certainly did run occult-based psyops, and there was a big British magical effort to support the war, but the idea that the Nazis were occultists is pretty much just down to Dennis Wheatley in his book 'They Used Dark Forces' - the premises for which he mostly just pulled out of his arse.

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hank — Sat, 01 Dec 2007 13:09:16 -0800

At one point Crowley avidly offered his services to the Crown.

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Oddcult — Sat, 01 Dec 2007 13:26:16 -0800

Yeah. It's possible that he was involved with luring Hess to Britain, on the recommendation of Ian Fleming. But again, this is possibly just more bollocks.

During the first world war, he was regarded as a traitor, because he wrote propaganda for Germany. However, the information he gave the Germans, and the material he prepared was so ridiculous that it harmed their cause rather than helped it. The fact that he wasn't arrested on his return to the UK, and indeed, that all his debts were written off, seems to suggest that was was working for British Intelligence at this point, rather than against them.

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Kinesys — Sat, 01 Dec 2007 14:16:06 -0800

I ought to mention in all fairness, the concept of Nazi adepts using the emotional energy of the camps for some great dark working is just me spitballing (Mostly for a interesting game concept) I certainly don't believe in demoniacally powered assasins or any other such thing. But it's fun to speculate.

Still, they did co-opt the swastika as their personal symbol. They did effectively create a "Religion" where Germany was the most important thing above all. The SS was organized along the lines of a mystick knighthood. Maybe the Thulists disbanded but it's not as if the beliefs they promulgated disappeared like dew on the grass.

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46&2 — Sat, 01 Dec 2007 16:13:30 -0800

There are very, very few good books on witchcraft and paganism. Avoid anything published by Llewellyn Press. -Oddcult

I own one Llewellyn Press book. It's called THE COMPLETE BOOK OF AMULETS AND TALISMANS by Migene Gonzalez-wippler. I found it very informative, but was wondering if you had any opinon about it or its author. One thing I noticed about the book was that it had a section in the table of contents called "bloodmagic" but there wasn't a word in the actual book that discussed bloodmagic. I wonder if this was cut out.

On magical texts in general it seems like all the texts are nothing more than--not to knock anyones system of belief--glorified derivations of older texts. I'm currently interested in a more scholarly look at magic and its history.

The Ebon Shelf and the Nature of Magick

warrenellis — Sat, 01 Dec 2007 16:34:05 -0800

I'm really glad Ali Pulling (Oddcult) is here.

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Cat Vincent — Sat, 01 Dec 2007 17:57:04 -0800

Good recommendations above - though I'd say the criticisms on Buckland go at least triple for Crowley - as dear old Uncle Fester left a lot of deliberate booby-traps in his rites as a laugh. Tread carefully.

Anyone interested in the Western tradition wanting a solid and entertaining intro could do far worse than Alan Moore's 'Promethea'. For Chaos and Voudon styles, you'll learn a fair bit from Grant Morrison's 'The Invisibles'. Yeah, they're comic books.

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Alexa_D — Sat, 01 Dec 2007 19:07:37 -0800

I personally can't wait for Alan Moore's "one-stop grimoire" (as he once described it).

The Ebon Shelf and the Nature of Magick

JaredRules — Sat, 01 Dec 2007 19:35:29 -0800

any reccomendations on good references for Tarot either online or in print?

The Ebon Shelf and the Nature of Magick

Kinesys — Sat, 01 Dec 2007 20:40:25 -0800

One of the issues of Promethea has a pretty good guidebook in it. In rhyme no less.

I like the Crowley Tarot book by Akron-Hajo Banzhaf
And also Gerd Zeigler's book on the crowley deck "Tarot: Mirror of the Soul"

A more general work is a "Complete Guide to the Tarot" by Eden Gray, but by the age of my copy i suspect it's out of print.

The Tarot advice i can give is that sooner or later, you come up with interpretations of the various card. Don't fight this. Sooner is better than later.

Frex: In the crowley deck the 8 of wands is normally considered to be the key to "Clear, swift, direct communication" A bolt from the blue if you will. For a while there i was getting it a lot and not understanding what it was refering to. Until i noticed that it pre-saged every single knock-down drag-out argument between me and the lady i was living with at the time.

Oddly enough, it seemed as if i could only discover important things about the one i loved the hard way...

Love makes you do the whacky.

The Ebon Shelf and the Nature of Magick

JaredRules — Sat, 01 Dec 2007 20:53:46 -0800

Yeah I have read that Promethea actually.

I guess, like, I'm not sure how the interpretations should be coming to me.
Like, mostly what I read is just someone telling me what cards mean to...whoever.
But I've not yet come accross anything that suggests strategies for determining one's own concepts.

Also, do you tend to focus more on like the imagery of a card? Or do you ever consider the suit and number and what those factors in combination might mean? Or ...I don't know.

The Ebon Shelf and the Nature of Magick

Kinesys — Sun, 02 Dec 2007 01:16:15 -0800

The way i read tarot is atypical i think. I don't really do it in a way that is magickal. I consider the cards to be like a system of symbols. By manipulating the symbols and their meanings, i am trying to shake up my own mental patterns and also dowse my subconcious mind.

I don't look for anything larger to work through me, but i pay attention when it does. In a crowley deck you read each card right side up. Each card has positive and negative aspects. I guess he felt like you ought to be able to feel the difference, instead of relying on a second set of "reversed" meanings.

Also: Court cards can be tricky because they can be read as a state of being or a person the querrent knows. Sometimes you'll just know.

As far as looking for ways to determine your own concepts. Look at the patterns of your own life. If the card deck you are working is right in your groove, you may start to see that that ace of swords is all about the "Eureka!" moment or the search for same.

I don't know if i'm explaining this well. I don't think i've ever tried to explain this formally to anyone else.

I do look for preponderances of suits in layout. The other night i read for a friend and she reported that the swords and cups were a regular feature in her readings. Heart and mind at war is what i told her.

I also pay attention to the number of major arcana. If you got only a few, it means that maybe there isn't much going on in your life, but that you are for the most part, in control of it. On the other hand, when there are a lot, it means that all the pieces in your personal game are on the board. But it also means you are being Squeezed By The Forces Of Destiny.

I pay a little bit more attention to cups. I know that when the emotional life is out of whack, nothing seems as if it's working right. No matter what's really going on.

Look, as far as tarot goes, memorize the keywords, but then start connecting them up to your own experience as best you can. Trust your gut.

The Ebon Shelf and the Nature of Magick

Oddcult — Sun, 02 Dec 2007 05:14:10 -0800

Yeah. I have to agree that Promethea is probably one of the most important magical texts of recent years.

Also, the letters page of Issue 16 of the Invisibles contains all anyone really needs to know about Chaos Magic.

THE COMPLETE BOOK OF AMULETS AND TALISMANS by Migene Gonzalez-wippler. I found it very informative, but was wondering if you had any opinon about it or its author.

Sorry. Not read it.

I'm currently interested in a more scholarly look at magic and its history.

Start with Ronald Hutton, Graham Harvey and Owen Davies' works. Google them and you'll find there's plenty of references online. The is also a Journal for the Academic Study of Magic., which you might find interesting.

The Ebon Shelf and the Nature of Magick

warrenellis — Sun, 02 Dec 2007 05:20:16 -0800

You might want to start a separate thread for tarot, since I know we have at least one tarot expert in the room.

The Ebon Shelf and the Nature of Magick

Alexa_D — Sun, 02 Dec 2007 09:10:40 -0800

Kinesys, I actually read Tarot in exactly the same way. Much more as a way of unlocking my own mind, a more complex Rorschach test of sorts.

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Kinesys — Sun, 02 Dec 2007 10:57:12 -0800

Alexa: Do you find that even though you're not looking for "guidance" that you tend to get it anyway?

And do you also find that it's way easier to read for other people than for yourself? I always seem to be too close to the problems to see them clearly. Sometimes i can and other times i have no idea what the cards are trying to tell me. But in reading for other people, i simply don't have the same problems.

The Ebon Shelf and the Nature of Magick

Paul Duffield — Mon, 03 Dec 2007 03:29:49 -0800

"You might want to start a separate thread for tarot, since I know we have at least one tarot expert in the room."

I'd be most thankful for that! I've got a bunch of research to do on Tarot, and I don't really know where to start.

The Ebon Shelf and the Nature of Magick

Alexa_D — Mon, 03 Dec 2007 05:56:52 -0800

Kinesys, re: the guidance question: YES. Although, do your cards ever play games with you? Because one time I had a reading seem to tell me that my answer could be found from a man in religious authority, only to accidentally find the answer at Bishopsgate Institute. (Which was much more in line with my agnosticism.)

However, I find that I have better success doing readings for myself than for other people. Or at the very least, the other people never let on to how much or how little I've helped, so I believe the worst. I tend to be highly critical of myself (though usually constructively), so I don't really have an issue with being "too close" to my problems. By the time I turn to the cards, I've usually picked apart the problem to its essential parts, and the cards just help me rearrange them, as it were.

The Ebon Shelf and the Nature of Magick

hank — Mon, 03 Dec 2007 12:37:07 -0800

Cat: Those are in there to catch the unwary and to make things more obscure. Plus I think he rather enjoyed messing with people's perceptions.

The Ebon Shelf and the Nature of Magick

Kinesys — Mon, 03 Dec 2007 14:35:21 -0800

There have been times when i have read the tarot only to receive the equivalent of "DUH! You already know what the problem is..."
And there have been other times when i've read them and found them near completely impenetrable. But usually it was because i really couldn't actually FACE the problem at hand.
But I don't think i've ever had them play game with me. I think my deck knows i'm far too thick for that sort of thing.

The Ebon Shelf and the Nature of Magick

adrian r — Mon, 03 Dec 2007 15:20:55 -0800

Cat Vincent: "the criticisms on Buckland go at least triple for Crowley - as dear old Uncle Fester left a lot of deliberate booby-traps in his rites as a laugh. Tread carefully."

Examples please? I've heard this before, but no one has ever got specific.

As for Tarot, I've learned a lot from NLP trainer Michael Breen, who is something of an authority on Hermeticism, Alchemy and Tarot. He recommends a basics-first system starting with elemental dignities, an approach covered with a minimum of fuss over at www.supertarot.co.uk.

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hank — Mon, 03 Dec 2007 17:32:53 -0800

Crowley makes references to killing babies and/or eating the young. Euphemisms for masturbation and the seminal component in cakes of light.

There are others...

The Ebon Shelf and the Nature of Magick

adrian r — Tue, 04 Dec 2007 02:04:20 -0800

Robert Anton Wilson lists those too; I'm wondering what the others are, there being a distinction in my head at least between a euphemism and a booby-trap.

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Oddcult — Tue, 04 Dec 2007 08:41:43 -0800

The 'booby-traps' in Crowley's work are when he details rituals to get in touch with demons and then deliberately leaves out the banishing, for example. He regarded that as fair game to fuck with people who just wanted to do stuff by rote without understanding it.

There were also examples, such as:

"To meet the demon Chronazon, take three-quarters of a cup of saltpetre, then grind a well-charred branch of oak wood into this and mix well. Then select some foul-scented sulphur and combine this too with, in a chalice of glass. Now, take a black candle and light it from a fire that has burnt for three days and nights. Chant the name of Chronazon seven times and with a great flourish, bring this flame down into the chalice. This will guarantee you meet the demon, or one much like him."

Actually, I just made that up, but you get the general idea.

The Ebon Shelf and the Nature of Magick

adrian r — Tue, 04 Dec 2007 09:31:43 -0800

Thanks, that's helpful. I think where raising demons is concerned, the same rules apply as for eating: don't take on anything you can't keep down.

The Ebon Shelf and the Nature of Magick

Alan Tyson — Tue, 04 Dec 2007 19:38:34 -0800

Is it odd to believe in magic, and to have experienced it, but to not want to practice it?

Because that's where I'm coming from.

The Ebon Shelf and the Nature of Magick

elizabeth — Tue, 04 Dec 2007 21:05:39 -0800

Is it odd to believe in magic, and to have experienced it, but to not want to practice it?

Funny you should ask that question. I asked Lon that question (more or less), and it may be the only time I've seen him get serious (I mean, when he's not being serious, which he absolutely is in those brilliant books of his):

Lon Milo Duquette @ Chemsetcomics.com

OK, so he was also serious when he was marrying my pals Wald & Ruth Ann of The Tarot School. For at least for part of the ceremony, anyway.

Speaking of Tarot, I'll start that Tarot thread, as I didn't see one...

The Ebon Shelf and the Nature of Magick

Alan Tyson — Tue, 04 Dec 2007 21:18:59 -0800

Thank you for the link - it was quite nice to read such a thing from the standpoint of someone who's been in this a while.

The Ebon Shelf and the Nature of Magick

Vespers — Tue, 04 Dec 2007 21:23:05 -0800

Not odd at all. It takes a certain, arguably rather insane, type of person to have experienced that sort of thing and want to recreate it.

The Ebon Shelf and the Nature of Magick

hank — Wed, 05 Dec 2007 11:44:36 -0800

Lon is great. One of my fellow brothers couldn't think of any thing to ask him that has not been asked yet, so he asked Lon about Skull fucking. To which Lon clasped his hand to his eye socket and exclaimed "Ow Ow My Eye!"

The Ebon Shelf and the Nature of Magick

Oddcult — Wed, 05 Dec 2007 12:02:36 -0800

Is it odd to believe in magic, and to have experienced it, but to not want to practice it?

Depends what you mean by magic.

Poncing around in silly robes, waving daggers and wands can be exciting for a while, then dull, then it makes you feel like an utter muppet.

But taking what you've learnt about things which increase your luck, or the ways in which you can approach places and things that have some kind of special resonance for you, on occasion can definitely be worthwhile.

Even if your lucky magic pants' only talismanic effect is increasing your confidence through placebo, then they're still worth wearing if you're going out on the pull. But you shouldn't rely on them too much. Or get any odd ideas about not washing them, so as not to remove their power. That would almost certainly be counter-productive.

The Ebon Shelf and the Nature of Magick

Alan Tyson — Wed, 05 Dec 2007 12:29:52 -0800

I guess by magic I mean taking part in that belief system, instead of just holding to it. I believe in ghosts, and places and names of power, and people with a soft but firm grip on their personal realities. I just don't know if I want to take the plunge, I guess, to actually experiencing all that stuff.

The Ebon Shelf and the Nature of Magick

Kinesys — Wed, 05 Dec 2007 14:10:01 -0800

I don't practice magick anymore. I used to, But i decided to give it up. Mainly because i don't have much in the way of patience, and as i mentioned above in one of "Emile's Journal Entires" I think patience is way important in the practice of magick. ESPECIALLY external magick. To my way of thinking, Magick is a lot like Shoplifting. You can do it and get away with a lot, right up until the point where you attempt to do something you just don't have ability to pull off, and then it's on like donkey kong.

AoZ: Here are tips for anyone looking to get involved in the Occult.

1) Develop a good bullshit detector.
2) Read up on "magic" I.e Any books on cons,scams, hustles, and basic methodology of Stage magicians. Pay close attention to guys like Penn and Teller and James Randi. They may shatter a number of closely held illusions, but there are still things that fall into grey areas. I don't think even Psicop has managed to completely destroy ghosts as a potential supernatural phenomenon. Add all this to your bullshit detector toolbox.
3) Ask yourself each time you meet someone new. "Is this person fulla shit?"
4) Listen to Oddcult, (Who i don't always agree with, but who is spot on about a lot of things.)
5) Be suspicious if asked for money,sex, or a lock of hair.
6) Like any endeavor that involves other people there will be politics.
7) Remember that Magick isn't always pretty. Isn't always ugly. Isn't always weird, and is rarely, if ever, Simple.
8) And finally. The pursuit of Magick is at it's core, a pursuit of truth. Be sure you can handle the truth or you'll just be another poser.

The Ebon Shelf and the Nature of Magick

Kinesys — Wed, 05 Dec 2007 14:18:03 -0800

Also: that Lon guy is cool. I may have to grab his crowley thoth book and also his book on Qabbalah.

The Ebon Shelf and the Nature of Magick

Oddcult — Wed, 05 Dec 2007 14:33:15 -0800

Pay close attention to guys like Penn and Teller and James Randi.

Excellent advice. Also Jim Rose and Derren Brown. All have written excellent books.

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Gnosus — Wed, 05 Dec 2007 15:13:01 -0800

The best intro into Magickal practice, In my experience, is a crisis point initiation. This can be anything from a lucid dream, to a near-death experience, a massive DMT dose, a nervous breakdown, a suicide attempt, an alien abduction, and an infinity of other possibilities. Basically anything that deconstructs the entirety of the imprints that we percieve as consensus reality.

The Ebon Shelf and the Nature of Magick

adrian r — Wed, 05 Dec 2007 15:18:45 -0800

A good understanding of what language makes possible, and sometimes makes impossible (from within a given model) is useful too. And for that I'd recommend Bandler & Grinder's The Structure of Magic I and II; dry as it was written for an academic audience, but good stuff. Wait around and you'll be able to pick up an updated version by Bandler and Eric Robbie. Bandler's Tranceformations is excellent too, if you're getting interested in the hypnotic aspect of language. And while we're on the subject of hypnosis, anything by Milton Erickson is recommended too. See also Monsters and Magical Sticks, by Steven Heller, a contemporary of Bandler and Grinder's who was also into Erickson but didn't get involved in their developing NLP model.

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adrian r — Wed, 05 Dec 2007 15:43:47 -0800

And how could I forget Andrew Austin? A British nurse with experience of the psychiatric system and more, Andrew's recently published book tells how he uses his experience with hypnosis, NLP and magic to achieve some remarkable results. Check out the extracts over at http://www.steveandreas.com/RainbowM.htm

The Ebon Shelf and the Nature of Magick

Alan Tyson — Wed, 05 Dec 2007 15:49:13 -0800

1) Develop a good bullshit detector.

Best advice I've heard so far.

Adrian, thanks again for the further info, though there's something wrong with the link in your last post - it won't open.

The Ebon Shelf and the Nature of Magick

adrian r — Wed, 05 Dec 2007 15:57:24 -0800

You can cut and paste the address and click on that instead.

The Ebon Shelf and the Nature of Magick

Alan Tyson — Wed, 05 Dec 2007 16:00:47 -0800

Ah, there we go.

The Ebon Shelf and the Nature of Magick

Cat Vincent — Wed, 05 Dec 2007 16:01:19 -0800

Both Gnosus and Kinesys are spot on. I especially agree with Gnosus's point about crisis as initiator.

Oddcult is also right re;
"Poncing around in silly robes, waving daggers and wands can be exciting for a while, then dull, then it makes you feel like an utter muppet."
Frankly, if you need robes and such to work change magically, you're missing the point. Sure, the toys and costumes are fun and can be useful under the right circumstances - but magic is mostly about altering your own mental states at will, then projecting that change externally. If you know what you're doing, you can do it empty-handed and naked. Sometimes, especially when naked.

@adrian r - thanks for the Austin link. Not read him and it sounds interesting.