Whitechapel - WORMTOOTH NATION

WORMTOOTH NATION

Adam — Sat, 26 Jul 2008 04:34:00 -0700

I'm sure warrenellis.com has already brought this to everyone's attention, on top of it's mention in another thread (edited to point out it's in the "Be short, Be Great" thread), but I've just finished watching it the whole way through and I think it truly warrants its own thread.

Watch it here.

For something done on a budget of less than $5000, the production values and script/performance quality are nothing short of what you'd expect from a budget at least ten times that amount. I could not tear myself away from it.

The concept seems to have absolutely NOTHING to do with it, but nevertheless strongly reminded me of Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter, which I always wanted to see in movie format anyhow...

Your thoughts, people?

EDIT BY WARREN: looks like there will be SPOILERS BEYOND THIS POINT.

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outlawpoet — Sat, 26 Jul 2008 17:44:59 -0700

interesting. I'm working through the episodes now. As a counter-point to Dr. Horrible it's really quite striking.

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neogrammarian — Sat, 26 Jul 2008 21:27:38 -0700

Very interesting, particularly the theme of the eternal present that seems to be cropping up quite a bit these days in pop culture, and is that I see apparently lived genuinely by (some?) Millenials. Anyone got any thoughts about this phenomenon?

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Adam — Sun, 27 Jul 2008 00:24:54 -0700

Errr... May just be my poverty-induced starvation making my brainmeats sluggish, but I didn't quite comprehend that... Exactly what is the crux of this phenomenon of which you speak?

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James O'Dwyer — Sun, 27 Jul 2008 04:47:27 -0700

As one can imagine, I have nothing but warm-and-fuzzies for Wormtooth Nation.

Assuming you've already watched it (spoilers, yo ho) -

One of the more interesting features of Wormtooth Nation is the idea of 'Nixing', or having one's memories removed by the 'wormy' gas - the same gas that apparently grants the inhabitants of the city immortality, or an extraordinarily extended lifespan. Does one choose immortality in a grim, dark underworld, with one's life and memories at the mercy of a tyrant/autocrat? Or does one drastically shorten one's lifespan and return to a world of fresh air and (one assumes) lacking the same extreme of tyranny?

I'd actually enjoy seeing this series converted to Graphic Novel format, with some ideas expanded upon - more history, the characters fleshed out further, more complexity to the interactions and relationships, more steampunky goodness.

On a materialist tangent, I hope to get the DVD when it comes out.

Benedictions all

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neogrammarian — Sun, 27 Jul 2008 07:09:37 -0700

@ Adam.

lol sorry, didn't meant to throw that out of left field- I was actually thinking about starting a thread about the topic, and then it cropped up in this film, and so I thought I'd ask it here.

Living in an eternal present- the theme even crops up in Transmet, when Spider reminds ppl that they aren't even sure what year it was, and for those born after the storms ended, there's not much to mark the passing of time, and Spider suggests that's bad for a culture, to live in an eternal present.

I'm interested in a) whether this eternal present scenario is in some ways coming true right now and b) whether we're seeing a mostly generational split in who notices it. Spider was older than the Filthy Assistants, and he remembered a past when things were different. The eternal present I'm seeing in rl is lived in by Millenials, whereas the people writing scripts warning of it are Gen Xers (Ellis, Whedon, the crew behind the nonAeon Flux Aeon Flux movie, etc).

lol so maybe it deserves its own thread, though it's an issue in Wormtooth, but maybe no one's interested in the topic but me : )

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WiseEyes — Sun, 27 Jul 2008 07:35:36 -0700

Wow, going through Wormtooth right now. I almost don't want to. Just hearing the opening song and the credits at the end puts me right back in a chair back stateside watching a show on TV. It's reminding me so much of watching Firefly or Avatar that I really don't want to finish it! Those bastards and their conclusive stories. Making me all nostalgic and shit.

Eternal Present, eh? Interesting idea that I really don't pick out as often as I should. I guess the biggest threat is that the eternal present kind of hampers 'progress', but progress is such an illusory and subjective term it has a tendency to hamper itself. If you want to experience eternal present, go to war. The only thing marking time are when you remember to count how many days you have left and when you remember your days off. On the regular 6 days of the week, there's really only 4 different buildings I go to out here. It becomes very mundane. I feel like it's trying to kill my mind, but it's giving me so much time to read and write that my creativity is still flowering. It's a very odd contrast.

EDIT: I know what this reminds me of! It's a weird combination of Dark City and Bioshock! Those brilliant bastards.

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neogrammarian — Sun, 27 Jul 2008 08:23:34 -0700

@ WiseEyes- war sounds like an excellent example of the Eternal Present, but especially war atm (assuming here you're in the Middle East- you may not be).

Myself, I'd like to steer away from the notion of "progress" too- but the Eternal Present does not allow for some sorts of significant change- or perhaps an awareness of those changes. I know ppl in their late teens and early 20s who honestly believe the sexual revolution of the 60s & 70s didn't really happen because: "they'd all be dead of AIDS." (No lie, real quote). These people are living in an eternal present- no sense that STDs have histories, that there was no HIV in 1969. Likewise Millenials have never known a US not at war in some part of the Middle East. If that's your experience, and you've no sense of a past, what change are you likely to make?

Anyway- those're all real-life examples, but what got me curious was seeing the Eternal Present poking up into pop culture.

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WiseEyes — Sun, 27 Jul 2008 09:36:52 -0700

Another thought I just had after re-reading your post, neogrammarian, is the repetitive nature of change. It was your mentioning of the sexual revolution that really jolted it for me. Live long enough and celibacy was a sexual revolution. Before then, we have the very open cultures of ancient rome and greece. Sexual reserve is something that really cropped up with some sects of monotheism and again with their revivals in certain countries. It's a weird thought to me, but society seems to be bound to an unrecognized "eternal present". We think we're changing, but really we're just reverting. Wonder where the next step will be.

It seems the only real, solid changes come through evolution and geology. Change the planet, change society. Change humans, change society. That sort of thing. What will we ever do when the Earth spews super-intelligent, mutant, naked mole rats as the new dominant species?

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CamyLuna — Sun, 27 Jul 2008 10:03:56 -0700

I haven't watched Wormtooth yet, but am getting interested in the idea and discussion of the Eternal Present. Does that concept relate to the Buddhist & Zen concepts of "living in the now"? The idea that the past and the future are states are lived fully in the mind. If you're paying attention to the present (in that case through meditation) you can realize a universal reality and enlightenment. I'm probably not explaining it very well.

If the concepts do relate to each other, I guess that the Eternal Present that neogrammarian has recognized in the Millenials seems to be almost an unawareness of living. They're living in the now as almost a default, but there's no conscious awareness of that. I may be totally off the mark and once I re-read the thread and watch Wormtooth I'll know more.

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WiseEyes — Sun, 27 Jul 2008 10:27:08 -0700

@ CamyLuna - I think the concept neo is presenting is more along the lines of not remembering the past. Seeing the present as just the way it's always been. Ever seen Dark City or read 1984? They espouse the same ideas. It's just the notion that things have never changed, or at least not recently enough to really matter. I think it really ties more to an apathetic populace. One who doesn't want change badly enough to bring any about.

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neogrammarian — Sun, 27 Jul 2008 11:23:00 -0700

@CamyLuna

I think the lack of awareness is key- in a number of the pop culture texts I can think of, the moment of recognition, when a character or characters becomes aware of the missing past, is a crucial point in the story (as in 1984- good example, WiseEyes! Thnx!) So, no, I don't think the Eternal Present theme is Buddhist in any way, as it's unconscious.

@ WiseEyes

The issue of lack of awareness means I'm not entirely convinced it's apathy- or not totally. After all, if one doesn't simply doesn't know, then how can one be anything but apathetic? Or, maybe phrased better, is one truly apathetic when one has never been given the chance to develop? 1984 was a good example, and seems to support your take better than mine- Winston is of an older generation than Julia, and he has hope for a future, because he dimly remembers the past, whereas she seems incapable of working towards a changed future, even when presented w/the (apparent) reality of a resistance.

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CamyLuna — Sun, 27 Jul 2008 14:29:57 -0700

@WiseEyes - Thanks. Your examples are really good, and I think that I get it now. It's been years since I've read 1984, but Dark City is really fresh in my mind.

@neogrammarian - Thanks for clearing that up, too. I like what you're saying about it not quite being totally apathetic. It seems almost like a dulling of the senses.

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Adam — Sun, 27 Jul 2008 15:09:14 -0700

Very much so. Everybody in the city gets their memory wiped on so frequent a basis that they essentially can't move forward, because by the time they finally pick up the pieces of their forgotten personas they get wiped again... All the base-level characters definitely fit the "Millenial" category, with the exception of O'brien, Dmitri and Robin.

O'Brien knows that nothing is progressing, but actively pursues that state of affairs because that keeps his city stable and running smoothly. Robin knows more than anybody, and likes having the surface largely to himself. And Dmitri has just become so jaded by avoiding the gas long enough to see everyone he cares for live the exact same lives again and again and again...

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neogrammarian — Sun, 27 Jul 2008 17:07:52 -0700

@ Adam

Exactly! I'd been thinking about this topic in rl for a bit now, but it wasn't until seeing it so clearly in Wormtooth that I realized how frequently the issue crops up in (particularly indie) pop culture lately. What's floating around the current zeitgeist that's worried about this issue Now, as opposed to in the 1950s (Orwell)?

To me, the topic seems to go beyond the old saw: "those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it." The Eternal Present seems to be an utter Lack of past, w/the result that, as Wormtooth demonstrates so beautifully, it's extraordinarily difficult for ppl to develop in any significant way (which isn't to say that they can't at all, just that the effort is hampered by any sense of what came before).

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WiseEyes — Sun, 27 Jul 2008 18:42:07 -0700

@neogrammarian - I think what I was getting at with the apathy falls more in line with your example of Transmetropolitan and somewhat with 1984. In 1984, they still had the revolution, but in Transmetropolitan, there's really only Spider and the New Scum. The Old Scum are happy with where they are and everyone else is more or less on top of society, so why should they want it any different? And the New Scum don't really voice much without Spider. There may be some stuff for Transient rights and the like, Fred Christ, but that's mostly with the lower end Transients. Transients can still get a lot out of society if they start at a high enough point on the ladder. Anyways, the point being that the majority of the City Dwellers couldn't care less where they came from (otherwise they would visit the reservations more) and therefore they're stuck in the present.

@Adam - I really like your point as well. Not so much societal change, but individual progression. Of course this is pretty specific to Dark City and Wormtooth as the memory loss doesn't occur in 1984 or Transmetro.

Damn those spoilers... I'm practically pulling out my pubes to make sure I don't read that before I finish the series... All I saw was 'O'Brien' so I'm ok still...

EDIT:
Just finished, brilliant! Loved the ending. Anyways
@Adam -

Not so sure about Robin, his motivations for not telling others are pretty ambiguous. And O'Brien changes later on, so he's not so steadfastly pursuing the status quo for the sake of the status quo. I think it's more he got nixed after they went underground or something and geniunely (sp?) forgot about the surface. He seems to simply be trying to do what he thinks is best for the city. Road to hell and good intentions though. Dmitri is pretty spot on though

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Adam — Sun, 27 Jul 2008 19:25:28 -0700

I think Robin is

very much your Right-Hand Man persona - no personal ambition to rise any higher than he is, and not telling anyone how to get to the surface because, well, no-one's actually asked him directly. He'd tell O'Brien if the question was clearly put to him, but otherwise things are pretty swell as they are. And O'Brien only changes his tune because he finally sees that the Revolution is inevitable, even if everyone were to be nixed it'd still come about again, eventually. His people really DO want the surface, so the City is no longer relevant... And that's the crux of this idea that the eternal present is never sustainable, I think.

As a side note, I just loved the scene were Robin finally cracked and attacked the Union boys before Serias made his play against Sam. Godlike ferocity and power! XD

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Adam — Sun, 27 Jul 2008 19:27:50 -0700

Screw it. No more hiding. If you haven't seen it yet and want to maintain the surprises, don't read any further than this post.

And for god sake HURRY UP AND WATCH, because this discussion's got interesting.

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notwolf — Sun, 27 Jul 2008 22:46:40 -0700

damn well worth it, yes.

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WiseEyes — Sun, 27 Jul 2008 23:03:37 -0700

That was my favourite scene too. That and the bit with the guy dancing and he just falls flat. Loved that show!

I get what you're saying about Robin, and this actually makes sense to me. Considering my present lack of sleep, that's probably a dangerous thing. As far as O'Brien, I'm going to have to reluctantly agree with you for now.

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Rootfireember — Sun, 27 Jul 2008 23:31:34 -0700

Just finished it. Loved it. :) Robin is made of niftiness. But I was always a fan of the Goodfellow.
Loved the costumes, loved watching the acting progress.

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Adam — Mon, 28 Jul 2008 00:37:40 -0700

Heheheh, yeah. I didn't like Bottom's over-acting at first, it actually made me cringe during the trailer. But what with him being the amateur thespian that he's supposed to be in the storyline, it would make sense that he'd be so ostentatious in his mode of speech.

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leech — Mon, 28 Jul 2008 06:59:06 -0700

Well I've only watched the first episode so far, and I'm quite interested, the question of quality was initially off putting but I got over it quickly after realizing it is essentially home made.
I've noticed this eternal present theme, perhaps it is a symptom of the world wide culture finally embracing the internet and the potentially staggering amounts of information we now have access to. What do we do with it? What do we care about now? Isn’t someone going to tell us?
Cultural teen angst and malaise?
Oh dear

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WiseEyes — Mon, 28 Jul 2008 10:37:08 -0700

@Adam -

Oh, just noticed that Robin is the only one who explicitly knows where the surface is, that they all came down their voluntarily and what the wormy gas is for. He's probably the only one who hasn't been gassed out of the whole lot of them. Even O'Brien doesn't remember how to get to the surface and I'm pretty sure Dmitri's been gassed at least once, albeit not for a very long time.

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Rootfireember — Mon, 28 Jul 2008 11:13:42 -0700

@WiseEyes -Seconding your opinion; gas, Robin, etc.

Dimitri doesn't remember where the surface is or how to get there. So he's been gassed at least once. Robin seems to be serving as a sort of nagging cultural memory/relic, in addition to being a trickster. He knows what other people don't remember/don't want to know. I'm suspecting he might not be fully human- or not in the way we are.

So here's my question for this discussion:
If you had to choose between living a short life, and remembering it, or living a succession of repeating lives, not remembering a thing-- which would you do?

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WiseEyes — Mon, 28 Jul 2008 11:16:55 -0700

@Rootfireember -

Of course he's not human, he's a fawn.

Personally, I think I'd end up getting tired of both. So I'll just go with what I have.
I used to say I'd only live until I was 50. Then I started getting into martial arts and realized just how much there is out there. Now I've decided I will have to live forever to learn them all.

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Adam — Mon, 28 Jul 2008 14:28:08 -0700

Well I think Dmitri shows us what happens when you live too damn long. And Hella's true pain and anguish after finding Sam's been gassed and doesn't remember her at all is another strike against longevity. I mean, its like watching all your friends dying, and then having to watch it again and again. And the only alternative is to get gassed yourself and forget them from your end. Which I find equally horrific.

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WiseEyes — Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:05:10 -0700

It's only horrific because you actually remember it. Once you're gassed, it's really not so bad. Hmm... intellectual suicide. Interesting.

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Adam — Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:22:22 -0700

Yep. Gas yourself, and let your friends have the grief of losing you before they can grief you with their loss. Eventually it just becomes a childish race.

Which is an amusing concept on which to build a society.

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WiseEyes — Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:30:42 -0700

Also interesting, you'd have to redevelope the desire to gas yourself each time. So everyone would continuously loosing to their friends, because isn't is a 'bad' thing to get gassed?

Unless you could hypnotize or condition yourself in such a manner as which you habitually gassed yourself. People walking around popping ampules of the stuff every 15 minutes or so. It'd be like memento without the tattoos and Guy Pearce!

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mkhall — Mon, 28 Jul 2008 20:31:03 -0700

@WiseEyes Didn't it mention in the first episode that there are people who do that, deliberately nix themselves, like junkies?

An aspect I found intriguing was that at the end of humanity, in the Eternal Present, we devolve into acting out the same dramas again and again. It's as if with enough passage of time, all our stories become Shakespeare.

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WiseEyes — Mon, 28 Jul 2008 23:06:13 -0700

OMG! Shakespeare is writing my life!!!

Yeah, I remember the junkies, but they never really say WHY they get addicted... Maybe it's the weird memory-erasing bit they play later in the series that gives them a rush? Maybe it's the social effects? A social drug? That's a weird concept...

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clytemnestras_wrath — Tue, 29 Jul 2008 00:26:27 -0700

As someone who just finished up a run of Midsummer nights dream last week, it was super bizarre to find this series through here.

Also thought that the characters closest to the originals

(O'Brien, Bottom, Robin, and Tania)

were the most difficult to engage in. Don't get me wrong, i loved their story and i get that they are all living the same mistakes over and over again, and that they were the nobility

(or aspiring to be, in Bottom's case)

but their words got too.... flowery for me at times.

Enjoyed the fact that Titania got to be her own girl at the end of the series though. Didn't have her walking off into the sunset with either fellow, that i saw and love the concept that an entire faction of humanity went "Eternal Life?! SWEET!!!" and hauled ass underground.

kind of a steam-punk eternal sunshine of the spotless mind, wasn't it?

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prof_k — Tue, 29 Jul 2008 20:14:59 -0700

Holy crap! How did I miss this thread before???!!

I was on the crew for Wormtooth Nation. I'll see if I can drag Geoff and Cully over here to talk more about it.

2 things for now:

If you had to choose between living a short life, and remembering it, or living a succession of repeating lives, not remembering a thing-- which would you do?

This is, as I understand it, more or less the exact question the whole concept is built around.

I think Robin is very much your Right-Hand Man persona - no personal ambition to rise any higher than he is, and not telling anyone how to get to the surface because, well, no-one's actually asked him directly. He'd tell O'Brien if the question was clearly put to him, but otherwise things are pretty swell as they are.

and that's pretty much it, too. Robin is the ultimate of Living in the Now. I think he's quite surprised to find that no one else knows about the surface, or that no one else remembers why they're all there. For me, he's one of the most interesting characters in the whole thing. And I REALLY want to find out more about what he can really do, and how he got that way.

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daniel — Tue, 29 Jul 2008 22:12:37 -0700

this is so off the philosophical meanderings that drive the whole thing...but productions like Wormtooth Nation must be applauded and supported, if for nothing else that they show for a small bit of cash you can do great things these days with the technology that is available (and of course the narrative and technical expertise).

by the last episode I was damn moved, they'd hooked me into the characters and I flet for them. fine piece of work.

The music and audio is damn high quality given the budget - the credits suggest that the bloke who played bottom did all the music as well.

My main comment - may we see more of this!

It reminds me of the mid 90s when I was designing webpages in html in a basic text editor...I so thought the web would continue to be this secretive place full of anarchy and new ideas and creations...and this type of production takes me back there...in so many ways I prefer it to Dr Horrible...simply because of the manner in which it was produced!

(Note to readers - first post...guess I should do an intro hey...)

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Adam — Wed, 30 Jul 2008 01:16:30 -0700

the credits suggest that the bloke who played bottom did all the music as well.

David J Murphy, yeah? I totally love the opening theme, can't stop singing the opening lines to myself. You just reminded me to go buy the soundtrack, and see if the dvd compilation is available for order yet...

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clytemnestras_wrath — Wed, 30 Jul 2008 02:05:10 -0700

@prof_k and whoever else, really....

If you had to choose between living a short life, and remembering it, or living a succession of repeating lives, not remembering a thing-- which would you do?

is basically the "eternal life; is it BS?" debate that i end up having with all my close friends at some point. I think that that's why this series strikes such a chord with so many. It calls to that taste of eternal loop that you get when you fall in love sometimes. That you've always done this, or that you Could always do this. Makes the ending of the series that much more satisfying. They did a great job of making the viewer feel they've completed the character's stories, without overtly resolving it.

....or this could be the vodka typing. oh well.

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johnmuth — Wed, 30 Jul 2008 03:42:44 -0700

For a shoe-string budgeted, college film it stands up pretty well. Although if the story hadn't been so engaging I would have quit watching within the first five minutes.

The funny thing about people mentioning the "eternal present" popping up in pop culture, is that it actually tends to do that pretty regularly. Think about the references made so far: 1984 - written in 1948, Dark City - created in 1999 (also, along with another version of the story, The Matrix), Eternal Sunshine was 2004, I believe. And in between there are things like a good bit of Philip K. Dick's work, which may not specifically be about a constant present, but certainly about a repetition of lives and an uncertainty of identity. Ah shit..my mind just blanked on the other examples I had...

Also like Dark City's recycling of people, and creating new identities for people was covered pretty well here. With the whole processing.

And fuck me, if I don't think that everything needs a musical number!! :p

I wouldn't mind seeing these guys given a larger budget to cover some similar themes.

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daniel — Wed, 30 Jul 2008 16:14:35 -0700

I wouldn't mind seeing these guys given a larger budget to cover some similar themes.

I know what you mean...but there is soemthing else about the fact the budget is small and production values not what we have come to expect from corporate media that really appeals to me...I mean, the core is the story isn't it - if the narrative is shit, then no matter how damn fine it looks and sounds...it is just a waste of money...I just reckon this is what the interenet should be about - I imagined it more like this...rather than commercial netowkrs just making their standard TV shows available for download.

Bring on more low budget - specific for net - stories, words, pictures and sounds...

I totally love the opening theme, can't stop singing the opening lines to myself.

Yep. I'm right there too

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jmrbowden — Wed, 30 Jul 2008 16:16:10 -0700

I've just finished and that was great. Inspirational. I want to see more from these guys and not only that i want to see more independent web based projects like this.

It has opened up a world of possibilities in my head that i didn't even see before. I have completely underused my internet access and must now go forth and write and make and just put myself on this world of information, leave something for the future to have.

On the eternal present talk. After experiencing something close to nixing (i got knocked out and lost pretty much most of my childhood) that caused short term memory loss also for a while and has pretty much left my memory with large holes in it and a problem retaining events that are happening now, i often wonder about my eternal present. My past is very often an afterthought to me, only remembered if reminded of it, such as the phone call from family every now and then. My future is something i don't consider at all really, limiting myself to vague plans that involve my next meal.

I live almost completely in the now.

It's something i'm wanting to change and given the choice of living eternally or living a finite life-span whilst retaining my memories, i'd have to choose keeping my memory. It's identity, without it your not quite you really.

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WiseEyes — Wed, 30 Jul 2008 18:05:26 -0700

Yeah, what's really the point of living forever if you don't bloody remember any of it?

You thought Bottom and Robin were had to connect to? Those two were my favourite! Ultimately, Bottom wins out for me, but Robin is hard to let go of.

@johnmuth - yeah, I've compiled a mental list of eternal present themes on three separate occasions, but never remember them when I sit to type something. Rather annoying...

@prof k - Thanks for your contribution to that beautiful piece of internet!

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daniel — Wed, 30 Jul 2008 18:39:50 -0700

Yeah, what's really the point of living forever if you don't bloody remember any of it?

Isn't that the point...that if you don't remember it...you aren't living forever...from my perspective the main motive to escape was more around oppression than it was for the right to die...they were dying all the time. wormy gas was death really - processing was a re-birthing concept...our minds dying is far more significant than our body dying...

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WiseEyes — Wed, 30 Jul 2008 18:51:14 -0700

I was speaking in terms of the question "endless existence w/ memory loss vs. finite existence and continued memory"
But yeah, I get yah.

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clytemnestras_wrath — Wed, 30 Jul 2008 22:23:29 -0700

I loved Bottom's awkward autograph seeking scene, but the parts with the mechanicals were not as appealing to me. Felt a little too performative. But, then again, could have been on purpose. That musical number was damn near perfect though.

And it wasn't Robin on his own that bugged me, the Robin/O'Brien dialogue was just too.... trying to be a Shakespearian lord and master, but falling a hair short.

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Adam — Thu, 31 Jul 2008 00:33:51 -0700

Yeah, I get that. I mean, they were conversing normally with everyone else... Its like a subliminally homo-erotic boys club thing they had going on between them :P

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Adam — Thu, 31 Jul 2008 05:40:28 -0700

DVD is up for ordering now. Just booked my copy, fresh for the infecting of unsuspecting friends and colleagues. Let the contagion spread!

Wormtooth Quartermaster's Shed

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Triska — Wed, 19 Jan 2011 20:57:51 -0800

By a physiological stand point. Robin's behavior is something I would imagine for someone who had shifted his mindset to keep sanity. In the beginning you can't expect for the safe and danger zones to be known. That is why I think Robin may be immune to the nixing. (or he just kept a mask on till it got known.) It may have a different effect on him. People do react differently to things. You all have gone over how hard it would be for people to watch others start over again. And to ease your own pain have yourself nixed. But what if you can't? I also think that he wanted it to come to an end, but felt that it had to come from another to lead the people out.

I found it rather puzzling that Robin had to take Sam on that rather long detour to reach the spot where he last saw Tania. And the last spot he saw Tania was the same spot those other guys last saw her. All he had to do was ask where she ran and he could have tracked her down himself.

The style of the song that Bottom sung made me think of the 80s. Anyone up for the idea that there was progression as people stumbles into WN? And that not everyone came from one time frame? If you were wondering around a field and came across a shack, what would you do?