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      CommentAuthorJeff Owens
    • CommentTimeAug 9th 2008
     (3254.1)
    How come no one has ever really laid out magic in layman's terms except, from what I have read (which is, admittedly, minimal), Grant Morrison? Are there others out there that have written about it in a way that can be deciphered without years of study? Is there some reason people won't just be straightforward about it? Am I just not looking in the right places? I know there are people out there who could, but just won't talk about it.

    Buncha fuckers.
    • CommentAuthorvian
    • CommentTimeAug 9th 2008
     (3254.2)
    i just got Generation Hex, a collection of essays in which a few authors discuss how they became involved in magic and how they practice it. i'm only sixty pages in, though, so all i've read are explanations of why these essayists sought it out. seems promising.

    i've also seen constant reference to Phil Hine whenever people talk about magic, but i've yet to find a copy in a bookstore. there's an occult store on ninth street i've been meaning to check out for a while . . . but yes, every other source on magic i've encountered mentions Phil Hine (in a positive light) at some point.
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      CommentAuthoroutlawpoet
    • CommentTimeAug 9th 2008
     (3254.3)
    There are a few chaos magic Articles on the web that aren't bad. Also, books like "High Magic" lay out complete systems.
  1.  (3254.4)
    I've own the two phil hine books which are most commonly mentioned and they were pretty impenetrable to me. I guess you already need to know a bit about the subject to grok them. Or I'm an idiot.
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      CommentAuthorJaredRules
    • CommentTimeAug 9th 2008
     (3254.5)
    See this is exactly what I need. Cos I'm interested in reading about the various ideas on magics. But I not only do I not know where to start looking, but I don't even really know what to look FOR!
    • CommentAuthorWakefield
    • CommentTimeAug 9th 2008 edited
     (3254.6)
    Ricky Jay is notably tacit about magic. However, Mark Singer wrote a GREAT profile called Secrets of the Magus on him that, as Jay put it, "tells you more about me than I know myself." It lists, incidentally, some reference books.

    Jay's Journal of Anomalies and his Learned Pigs and Fire Proof Women talk about various tricks, but they're not how-to books. He did, however, write a book called Cards as Weapons, in which he explains how to use a playing card as a weapon. Who'd a thunk.

    It's oop, but you can download it.
    •  
      CommentAuthorJeff Owens
    • CommentTimeAug 9th 2008
     (3254.7)
    @Steven Hutton
    they were pretty impenetrable to me.


    Me, too.

    @twicetold - I'm talking about "Golden Dawn", "chaos" and the like, not parlor tricks.

    @outlawpoet - This? And, if so, have you read it?
    • CommentAuthorWakefield
    • CommentTimeAug 9th 2008
     (3254.8)
    Oh wow, I didn't even know this sort of thing existed. So this is like magic as self-help.
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      CommentAuthoroutlawpoet
    • CommentTimeAug 9th 2008
     (3254.9)
    @Screw Jeff Owens

    Yes, it's interesting, if not entirely enlightening.

    a more complete, if a longer study, is this book: Modern Magic which is a more "scientific" approach to magick, and why they think it works.

    My advice here is mostly as a former practitioner and theorist, I haven't practiced or believed in this stuff for some time.
  2.  (3254.10)
    Wasn’t this sort of the point of everything Crowley wrote? Sure it seems pretentious and over the top now, but at the time his stuff probably qualified as Magick for Dummies. The same could be said of Buckland’s various witchcraft/wicca/witta stuff, although it seems like that trend has run its course.
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      CommentAuthoroutlawpoet
    • CommentTimeAug 9th 2008
     (3254.11)
    @James Puckett
    Depends on which books you're talking about. The Book of Lies is fairly accessible. Some of the other stuff is extremely obscure.
  3.  (3254.12)
    I'm kind of just seeking out a reprint of the old TOPY mindfuck letters that Genesis P'Orridge ran before s/he decided not to be a cult leader. I thought their mail order system sounded like a brilliant way to break people into thinking for (and doing magic for) themselves.
    • CommentAuthoradrian r
    • CommentTimeAug 9th 2008
     (3254.13)
    Before you get anywhere near the waving your hands about Mandrake the Magician stage, take a long hard look at what's in your head, how it got there, and what to do with it. In this regard, studying Robert Anton Wilson and NLP can be of immense value. In both cases, they're about exploring the way that language is ingrained in us at the neurological level, and about accessing different states of consciousness that allow different possibilities to emerge. Both also follow Crowley's dictum of working with logic, so as better to recognise its use and abuse, and to be able to use illogic yourself more readily and with intention. Add to that some kind of training in 'energy' awareness/work, such as tai chi or reiki, and you'll start to change the sensory processing that allows you to perceive everything. Yes, a lot of NLP training is more business focused than esoteric, and there are a lot of crappy trainers out there - but it's an amazing way of thinking/doing that really does require training and not just reading the books. Same applies to Wilson and his exercises. Anyway, I've found that a grounding this way helps prepare you for immersion in Hine, Crowley, Castaneda, or whatever else you want to look at is invaluable since it gives you a toolkit for working with any of those systems in ways that you're in charge of. If anyone's interested in NLP trainer/resource recommendations, get in touch.
    • CommentAuthorchris g
    • CommentTimeAug 9th 2008
     (3254.14)
    This is useful. Didn't buy it, but I previewed the Morrison stuff on there free.

    http://www.amazon.com/Book-Lies-Disinformation-Magick-Occult/dp/097139427X/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1218345447&sr=1-2

    Also:
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5589263822022732006&ei=E3qeSNakEorsrQP_0MEq&q=grant+morrison&hl=en

    Did a sigil recently for more confidence. I've been taking less shit from people/picking my battels, so I suppose it's working!
  4.  (3254.15)
    Yeah Phil Hine and Grant Morrison were probably the two who were the jumping off point for me. I'd also recommend sifting through Barbelith's temple forum as well.

    The best teacher is doing though. Magic was one of those things I wanted to get more into for years and years, but I would just read about it. But once I did my first sigil, and actually started to do the things I read about, it really took it to the next level.
  5.  (3254.16)
    Science is the new magic. Instead if spending years praying to a snake deity for flight, you can spend that time building a jetpack and get real results. On the other hand, what Crowley tried to show is magic is psychological. A sigil might help you because you believe it's helpful, it's psychosomatic. Bah on magic.
  6.  (3254.17)
    See I'm not so good with math, but I have a wicked keen imagination. So I can build better things with my brain than I can with my hands. Thus magic is a more useful tool for me personally than science. I've also found magic helpful in terms of understanding science better than I do when people try to use science to understand magic better.
    • CommentAuthorWiseEyes
    • CommentTimeAug 10th 2008
     (3254.18)
    Anyone who think either branch or both offers the complete and final solution is deluding emself. There's always more to life than we'll ever figure out. Why not try all tools and see what works best for you? In the meantime, never hurts to have a little respect for others.

    My only experience with magic has been Robert Anton Wilson and research on neo-pagan religions. And a little bit of mucking about with Tarot, but wasn't much involved in that. I did, however, recently read The Teachings of Don Juan by Carlos Casteneda and absolutely loved it. It's hardly an explanation of magic, but it does cover Don Juan's teachings as well as he can. Brilliant book.
    • CommentAuthorOddcult
    • CommentTimeAug 10th 2008
     (3254.19)
    Take your pick:

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      CommentAuthorJeff Owens
    • CommentTimeAug 10th 2008
     (3254.20)
    @adrian r - I have read a bit of Wilson's stuff and found it to be bending my brain in a very pleasant way that somehow worked for me. I should probably make my way through his whole library. As far as "awareness" training goes, that may be my ultimate downfall. I certainly encourage others to do what they wish and in no way ridicule them for it, but it just doesn't seem like I can get into and yoga or what not (as evidenced by me calling it "what not"). But I feel pretty good about my ability to focus when casting sigils because, well, how hard is it to jerk off? Not very. I'm not that old yet...

    @mercurialblonde - I have had to do sigils to undo my past sigils, and I am so crazy I believe it to have worked. I cannot claim to practice anywhere near as much as I should, but much of that is attributed to not understanding a lot that I have read on the subject(s). Phil Hine, while not too outlandish, definitely expected me to know stuff that I didn't. I couldn't agree more that doing is the best teacher, I am just looking for something that can teach me the stuff Crowley talks about without expecting me to have read insanely large amounts of material on the subject. Perhaps this is impossible. I should just go on making shit up like I have been. I should practice daily.

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