Not signed in (Sign In)
    •  
      CommentAuthoroddbill
    • CommentTimeJan 31st 2009 edited
     (4756.1)
    My quibble is tossing in the lip-licking rapist types on Gaeta's side. The "Im a gunna get me a peesa yer wyyyf" was unneeded. The civilans have every fucking right to be pissed.


    This is not a weakness, it is an accurate representation of one constant constituency of any revolution. There are the people who have ideals, like Gaeta (and arguably Zarek), there are the regular folks, and then there are always the ones who take the opportunity of overturned authority to "get a piece" of whatever they have felt unrightly denied. That's why every riot has looters. That's why every war has rapists. That's why every revolution has summary executions.

    You give boys guns but don't impose strong moral leadership on them, you get looting, rapes and murders. Every time. No matter how much of a right the civilians have to be angry at their government.

    That Pegasus fellow is a reminder of that.

    EDIT: Ha! SteadyUP & I posted the same thought at the same time, but he got to the "Enter" key first! - Re: the allegory, I'll always give Orwell a partial pass, but frankly I think Animal Farm is a less effective dissection of socialist totalitarianism than 1984 precisely because Animal Farm is a rather heavy handed allegory and 1984 is what I think of as "honest" fiction.

    @DarkKnightJRK - No take down was intended, so I'm glad you weren't offended! I've been in more than one "heated discussion" over to what extent New Caprica was a direct allegory of the Iraq occupation, so I try to be even keeled when I argue against the concept, as it's one I feel strongly about and can easily get a little too demonstrative. But using New Caprica as a case in point - it works just as well as an Israeli occupation of Gaza allegory as it does a US Occupation of Iraq allegory because it isn't an allegory at all, but rather an honest exploration of the dynamics of occupation, and so shares many significant truths with any occupation of any place from any era.
  1.  (4756.2)
    Oh, I agree, it shows the sort of compromised alliances are going on quite well, I just think that without being so explicit about it you'd still have even more ambiguity. It's hard to feel any empathy for characters all but cackling about raping a woman in front of her husband and child. Honestly, I think that would be even more effective when we see how Gaeta handles those bastards, who are now his allies.

    Gaeta's had a long hard run of things, and eaten a great deal of shit for simply trying to keep even a shred of idealism. Seeing that picked clean, good tv.
    •  
      CommentAuthorhowyadoin
    • CommentTimeFeb 1st 2009
     (4756.3)
    omfg, I heart Starbuck. There's a woman who takes what she wants.
    I definitely like her a lot more than I did 10 episodes ago, when she was screaming and kicking the floor 'cause she didn't get her way.
    • CommentAuthorSteadyUP
    • CommentTimeFeb 1st 2009
     (4756.4)
    Are you crazy? That was hot.
    •  
      CommentAuthorFinagle
    • CommentTimeFeb 1st 2009
     (4756.5)
    I'm appreciating Starbuck's character more and more through the show. There are certain things you just never, ever get to see female characters do on most shows, sci-fi or otherwise, such as:

    * endure great physical pain that isn't childbirth or rape
    * show physical one on one parity in combat
    * play the "cocky cynical asshole" character
    * be openly hated by other characters for being better than they are, not for being conniving or bitchy

    That short scene in the locker room/galley with Starbuck in that last episode is what really reinforced this for me, before all the action even started. Starbuck joins a really short list of female characters for me, up there with /Aliens/ and /Run Lola Run/ and really expanding the range of what you expect from a well-written and acted character.
    •  
      CommentAuthorjohnjones
    • CommentTimeFeb 1st 2009 edited
     (4756.6)
    Starbuck is a great character. I love the way the show encourages you as a viewer to admire her and root for her, but also make it clear that in reality you would not want to have her in your life.

    And a big ol' "So Say We All" to the comments about Friday's show. The previous two shows were painful to watch, and not necessarily in a good way. It was like watching the cast all slitting their wrists to Michael Stipe whine-singing "Everybody Hurts." Suicide may be "painless" but it's also kind of boring, as "The Happening" showed us. Murder is way more fun.
    •  
      CommentAuthorJon Wake
    • CommentTimeFeb 1st 2009
     (4756.7)
    I love that Starbuck is only ever at home in her own skin when someone's trying to kill her. She's such a great character because no matter how what her situation (Cylon Angel of Death or not, pregnant or not, captive or seduced), the minute bullets start flying she knows exactly who she is and what she does.

    She's the Harbinger of Death.

    She fucks up people's days.
    •  
      CommentAuthorhowyadoin
    • CommentTimeFeb 1st 2009
     (4756.8)
    Are you crazy? That was hot.
    What can I say? Women who act like spoiled children don't turn my crank.
  2.  (4756.9)
    She's the Harbinger of Death.

    I think she is the one who is going to make it clear that the current cycle is ending. Death is, as ever, used a word for change in many forms of symbolism.

    * endure great physical pain that isn't childbirth or rape
    * show physical one on one parity in combat
    * play the "cocky cynical asshole" character
    * be openly hated by other characters for being better than they are, not for being conniving or bitchy


    Which is why I love her. Also why I understand why people hate her, as long as I think they would hate a male character for being the same. Same goes for Lee (using a list of emotive, touchy , uncertain of yourself adjectives instead) in reverse actually. One reason the "we are going the wrong way thing kinda played badly was it can be argued felt classically feminine in terms of a reaction shot. She should have been on her knees alla the end of Planet of the Apes, not on her back. Really it was a small thing, but it hurt the shot in terms of Starbuck.
    • CommentAuthorSteadyUP
    • CommentTimeFeb 1st 2009
     (4756.10)
    I really had the opposite of the reaction you guys are describing - it wasn't petulance; she wasn't being greedy or stubborn, it was closer to a religious fervor. Almost a "forgive them, they know not what they do" moment, but mean instead of compassionate, because that's who she is.
    •  
      CommentAuthorJay Kay
    • CommentTimeFeb 1st 2009
     (4756.11)
    Honestly, I think that would be even more effective when we see how Gaeta handles those bastards, who are now his allies.


    Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but wasn't Gaeta the one who twisted Baltar's arm to sign the death warrents in New Caprica? Wasn't that what the call between the two about?
    •  
      CommentAuthoroddbill
    • CommentTimeFeb 1st 2009 edited
     (4756.12)
    No, it wasn't. The call doesn't make real sense unless you've watched the webisodes leading up to this last season. If you missed them, you can still see them on the SciFi channel website.

    If you want a summary though, it's here:

    Gaeta fed an 8 model who he trusted the names of imprisoned humans who he wanted to have rescued. The 8 claimed to be trying to rescue them, but in reality she was using Gaeta's lists as execution lists, under the presumption that if those named are valued by the resistance, then they are potential problems to the Cylons and should be eliminated. Gaeta was not aware of what she was doing, however he seems to have developed doubts and suspicions later. Baltar was apparently aware of what the 8 was actually doing with Gaeta's lists, and he whispers that to him in the interrogation. This is what caused Gaeta to stab him in the throat with a pen. Gaeta is self-destructively guilt ridden over the role he unwittingly played in those executions, and thinks he should have known better than to trust anything a Cylon told him.
  3.  (4756.13)
    It also makes an interesting comparison to the Osama Bin Saul Tigh stuff from early season 3. Gaeta's story is now very much the portrait of how a good solider and person, one who really wants to do right, becomes a monster.
  4.  (4756.14)
    About Starbuck - I think the current insurrection is allowing her to hid from the questions she has about herself. Rather than having to think about who she is and what her life really means, she can recede into the right/wrong of supporting Adama and Lee and killing those who disagree. While she can be an effective berserker of sorts, she's crusing for a serious collapse when this insurrection is settled one way or the other, and she has to decide how she's going to live with herself and what place she holds in the story...
  5.  (4756.15)
    About Gaeta - He's not a monster. He's being consistant to himself (and his character), and his view of the situation is based on a understandable view of the past. As someone (falafel_musings) pointed out to me about New Caprica, Gaeta was the inside man for a human/cylon administration while secretly aiding a violent group of human rebels in an uprising that would bring an end to the human/cylon administration, and there he was a hero. On New Caprica Gaeta was working against the legally-elected human president and the human police force. He was working for Adama and Tigh then, and now he is working against Adama and Tigh. As a Colonial officer Gaeta swore an oath to serve his Commander, but as a Chief of Staff on NC he also swore to serve the President of the Colonies. Gaeta turned against Baltar when he decided Baltar was a weak corrupt leader who was letting the cylons walk all over the human population. Gaeta seems to have turned against Adama for the exact same reason.
  6.  (4756.16)
    @oddbill:

    Yeah, this is why, up until this season, I waited for the DVD release. Following 3 minutes "webisodes" in the interest of content string along irksome. I'm hoping the don't leave it ambiguous for those who didn't see them, as that's something of a key plot point.
  7.  (4756.17)
    As for the situation - someone else (encyclops) pointed out a rationale to use to access right and wrong:

    1.Strategic: what's the "right" thing to do to help save what's left of humanity? Is a provisional alliance with Cylons a better strategic move? Or is it better to repudiate the Cylons and have no plan afterwards?

    2. Intentional: what are the "right" motives to have in deciding on a course of action? Is it "right" to take action with the intent of saving humanity and obtaining a tactical advantage? Or preserving order according to the letter of the law? Or seizing power on the theory that you are better suited to lead, or the person leading is no longer suitable?

    3. Methodical: what is the "right" way to carry out your plan? Is it to operate within the chain of command and preserve order within the ranks, even if this means you don't get to have final authority even if you think your strategy is superior? Or is it to implement the superior strategy even if it means violent insurrection?

    4. Tactical: Is this the right time to take the action? Will taking the action at the moment do irrepairable harm in the short term, or manageable amounts of harm? Is there time to take intermediate actions and obtain the long term goals, or must action be taken now?

    For me, (1) and (2) are open for debate. (3) is harder, because insurrection is always a bad choice, but Adama is not showing any signs of wanting to listen, Laura will back him, so it's not clear how this can be resolved using the system. (4) is interesting also, because of the on-coming Cylon fleet likely headed their way. They need to unified for that. But if they wind up modifying the drives before the Cylons arrive and it proves to be sabotage, they're dead. (3) and (4) together probably points towards Gaeta trying to postpone the upgrades any way he can until the on-coming cyclons are dealt with (since the upgrades are needed to cover more space, not increased battle capability). But with emotions high, and the way that Adama/Laura have behaved with respect to political solutions, insurrection may be the overkill in order to prevent the upgrade, and this likely will put them at a big disadvantage when the other cylons show up...
    •  
      CommentAuthoroddbill
    • CommentTimeFeb 1st 2009
     (4756.18)
    It's also important to remember that the only reason Galactica survived the intial Cylon genocide strike was because it was one of the only remaining non-networked Battlestars, and the Cylons disabled all the other Battlestars before they could move by infiltrating their networks. The old style Battlestars like Galactica were designed without full networks for this specific reason, to be resistant to cylon network infiltration from the first cylon war.

    Gaeta was also instrumental in saving the Galactica from a Cylon network infiltration attack the one time back in season 1 that they had to build an ad-hoc network to get enough cycles to do an emergency jump calculation while under fire.

    As the person most familiar with Galactica's information systems, Gaeta is better positioned than anyone to understand what dangers exist if the Cylons were to have free access to subvert the defensive network isolation of the fleet. The fact that none of the commanders or political leaders seemed to be at all concerned that they were about to open themselves up the very same Achilles Heel that felled the whole human race has to have been a large factor in his judgment that the current leadership was no longer competent to defend the best interests of humanity.

    From an outside perspective of a viewer of the show, I suspect an alliance with the fleet Cylons is the wisest choice, but if I were a person in Gaeta's position, inside the show, with only the knowledge of what Gaeta knows, and his experiences, I would probably agree with his judgment here.

    Plunging the weakened and despairing fleet into a civil insurrection and potential post-revolutionary chaos is probably a very bad idea, however. Fear of annihilation would be the only thing to justify it, and Adama just did not do enough to reassure anyone that he wasn't leading them to that.
    • CommentAuthorSteadyUP
    • CommentTimeFeb 2nd 2009 edited
     (4756.19)
    One thing we haven't covered - the teaser for next week mentioned that
    Tigh dies in the grenade blast (my guess is he dives on it to save Adama). Assuming that's the truth, does anyone doubt, at this point, that he's gonna wake up right next to Ellen somewhere?
    •  
      CommentAuthorJay Kay
    • CommentTimeFeb 2nd 2009
     (4756.20)
    @SteadyUP

    I think someone already mentioned that throwing a grenade in an airlock is probably not the best idea and is more likely a flash-bang. Also, while they only show Adama in the preview, it doesn't inherently mean that Tigh is dead. If he is, though, yeah, he'll probably wake up next to her.