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      CommentAuthorhowyadoin
    • CommentTimeFeb 6th 2009
     (4756.1)
    QFT.
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      CommentAuthorJay Kay
    • CommentTimeFeb 6th 2009
     (4756.2)
    I agree with WE on the subject.

    *prepares for the eels*
  1.  (4756.3)
    I admit that story closed faster then expected. But we have hell on the way. Cavil is coming isn't he?

    Not sure what the final comment on Zarek is, I need to think.

    But I am very happy with the episode.

    Geata picked one last person to follow who was a monster and realized it and let it go.
  2.  (4756.4)
    Now, again I say this with "I loved the episode" but wanking about how much I liked it leads to no interesting questions. Did Zarek's actions, which I think were entirely in character, make the narative too easy to resolve morally or underscore the nature of revolutions.
    • CommentAuthorSteadyUP
    • CommentTimeFeb 6th 2009
     (4756.5)
    To be honest, I think people's loyalty to Gaeta was the only reason the coup lasted as long as it did - if it was just Zarek on his own, he would've started wasting people way sooner, and he wouldn't even have gotten this far.
  3.  (4756.6)
    @Jtraub:

    Zarek going all gun happy definately weights the moral seesaw more than a little. The little coda before the ending does some to remedy that.

    Frankly, Zarek never washed with me. He was too easy, too clean a baddie. Even Baltar is more nuanced, when he's not CRYING.

    I dunno, I still got this queasy feeling. This wrongness to it all. Gaeta elicits a great deal of sympathy from me and I think
    him facing a firing squad when all the other main characters have, at one time or another done any number of "right" things for the "wrong" reason, it just does not sit right.
    Which makes it great drama. Bad fiction reinforces your perceoptions, good fiction kicks your babies and makes you like the screams.
    • CommentAuthorSteadyUP
    • CommentTimeFeb 6th 2009
     (4756.7)
    good fiction kicks your babies and makes you like the screams.
    I simply cannot imagine a better summation of this show.
    • CommentAuthorchris g
    • CommentTimeFeb 6th 2009
     (4756.8)
    Bye-bye, assholes. Gimp got what he deserved ^_^ Admiral Adama is fucking HARDCORE. Not enough Starbuck tho -_- Maybe next time
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      CommentAuthoroddbill
    • CommentTimeFeb 7th 2009
     (4756.9)
    There will be some plot details from the recent episode in this post. If you don't want to be spoiled, don't look!

    Remember when Zarek was first introduced - as a super dangerous, almost Hannibal Lecter-like maximum security prisoner? Remember how scared everyone was of his getting out? It took four seasons for him to get off the leash of circumstances far enough to turn around and bite. But he did it this episode. I was doubtful they were going to ever get to the promise of that character - but they got there. Yes they did.

    And Gaeta & Baltar? That bit where Gaeta says he thought he was good he was a pretty good scientist, until he met Baltar. That moment where you see Baltar realize how badly he failed to respect Gaeta's hero worship, how he was long ago presented with an opportunity to make a man better and instead he failed that trust and made him worse... and how much he has always failed to return the respect owed the devotion others seem to give him... how he seems to be realizing that he has thrown away priceless treasure by scorning the hearts that always seem to open to him, however undeserving he has been... well, that is some unbelievable excellent combination of writing and acting.

    This show is going out all cylinders firing, all guns blazing.
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      CommentAuthorhowyadoin
    • CommentTimeFeb 7th 2009
     (4756.10)
    Question: was anybody surprised by Zarek's douchebaggery in this episode?
    • CommentAuthorsandman
    • CommentTimeFeb 7th 2009
     (4756.11)
    Not really, no. For a power-hungry SOB who hides behind self-righteousness it was completely expected for him to execute people who try to stop him from gaining all the power he dreamed of his all life. Tom Zarek was a piece of vile excrement and he got what he deserved.

    I did feel sorry for Gaeta in the end but this was the only thing that could happen to him when Adama 'got his ship back'. Had they done anything else to him, it would be lame.

    Btw, that scene with Adama marching down the corridor with an ever-increasing number of crewmembers close behind him? Goosebumps!
  4.  (4756.12)
    ***Spoilers Follow***

    @sandman I felt the same way about that corridor march. These last few episodes have been just awesome.

    I think it's interesting the dilemmas that Gaeta went through and I loved how they didn't take the path that lesser shows would have probably taken. Specifically when Gaeta finds out that Zarek executed the quorum of twelve the writers could have easily had him turn on Zarek at that point but they didn't. I think at that point Gaeta realized just who it was he had gone to bed with and at the same time he had to begin to realize that it was all falling apart.

    @oddbill
    Agreed on the Gaeta and Baltar scene. That was a beautiful scene.
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      CommentAuthorjohnjones
    • CommentTimeFeb 7th 2009
     (4756.13)
    I second (or third or fourth) the Baltar/Gaeta scene.

    Also, how come there's no love for the pen being mightier than the pistol?

    Romo Lampkin, Lawyerly Badass
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      CommentAuthorJay Kay
    • CommentTimeFeb 7th 2009
     (4756.14)
    Yeah, the Zareck's execution of the board does kinda tip the scales pretty divisively over to Adama in this--the only thing he really had going for him was the idea that the people had enough of Adama/Pres' secretive administration and that they didn't trust the rebel Cylons. After we see that they trust Zareck even less, it was all over.

    And yeah, the scene between Baltar and Gaeta was pretty good--even for me, who hadn't seen all their drama, just knew they were part of New Caprica.

    And yes, ditto on Romo. I was actually going to use that pun until I saw you use it, you bastard.
    • CommentAuthorsamishah
    • CommentTimeFeb 7th 2009
     (4756.15)
    Just finally saw the episode.

    Frack. No, that doesn't work. Fuck. Yes, that's better.

    The show has seriously begun charging ahead full steam hasn't it?

    And I am really really wretched about Felix's end. He deserved better. A trial followed by incarceration. But then...alot of people died because of his decisions, whether he was directly to blame or not. But still. Felix deserved a better end than this.

    What's weird is, thinking about it, how can one not agree with his position? Adama and Roslin have to see that right? They run everything based on "trust me." That's just not enough.

    Gah, poor poor Felix.
    • CommentAuthorsamishah
    • CommentTimeFeb 7th 2009
     (4756.16)
    Also, forgot to add:

    What was with Chief walking up to those huge scratches in the wall after disabling the FTL Drives? Was it just him realizing the ships maintenance, has gone to pot recently or was there some greater significance I am missing?
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      CommentAuthoroddbill
    • CommentTimeFeb 7th 2009
     (4756.17)
    Earlier on Adama and Roslin were often at odds, Adama asserting military authority, and Roslin fighting for democratic government, and they didn't trust each other very much - but over the series crisis after crisis turned distrust to grudging respect to love, and now they trust each other implicitly.

    The problem is, they seem to have forgotten that the people outside of their immediate circle don't have a window into the reasons for most of that trust, and they really do have to work harder to earn it from the wider fleet, especially in a time of ultimate disillusionment in the aftermath of Earth. From an outside perspective, the civilian government has just become a Public Relations arm of the military.

    I liked that soldier's line "I've always respected you sir, but I hate the cylons. I can't take orders from a man who won't fight them." - and Adama let that guy live. I think he recognizes on some level that he really hasn't made his case, that he isn't giving aid and comfort to the cylons, but that they are giving aid and comfort to him. He responds better to honest, open dissent than to plotting and rebellion. But he still is sort of a despot.

    It will be interesting to see what Roslin does with regard to the massacred government. I have a feeling she and Adama are past caring about the forms anymore, and will consolidate their authority under emergency powers.

    Arguable, their whole existence post genocide has been one continuous emergency, so the justification, though real, is also thin.

    All that said, in the context of events in the show that we know about but the general people in the fleet do not, they are probably making the best decisions for the survival of humanity.

    It is a confounding, beautiful show. I'm also torn up over the end of Gaeta's story, though it couldn't have come out otherwise once he crossed that bridge. I blame Adama for Gaeta, more than the influence of Baltar or Zarek. Gaeta was always loyal to humanity. That loyalty is owed consideration. Adama didn't do enough to reassure him in the face of some highly suspicious turns of policy that he still had the same loyalty.
  5.  (4756.18)
    I can't wait to see what's up with the big cracks. Is the ship in danger of being torn apart when they launch the FTL drives?

    I wonder what's going to happen to the government, too. After this, just about everybody is dead besides Rosalin, Adama, and Tigh.

    And I agree that I'm pretty broken up over Gaeta. He was one of the characters I thought was most easily related to! But maybe I'm just weird...
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      CommentAuthorhowyadoin
    • CommentTimeFeb 7th 2009
     (4756.19)
    Also, how come there's no love for the pen being mightier than the pistol?
    Oh yeah, that was one of my favourite moments. I like Lampkin a lot more, now.
  6.  (4756.20)
    @Oddbill

    Remember when Zarek was first introduced - as a super dangerous, almost Hannibal Lecter-like maximum security prisoner? Remember how scared everyone was of his getting out? It took four seasons for him to get off the leash of circumstances far enough to turn around and bite. But he did it this episode. I was doubtful they were going to ever get to the promise of that character - but they got there. Yes they did


    Yes they played this exceptionally well. It works even better with the sympathetic Zarek of early season 3. Because he is exactly the man you want on your side under those conditions, the issues are two fold 1) what he does when things resolve and 2) when he sees those conditions at a time you do not. The line between terrorist and revolutionary is often whose side of a moral issue you are on. The real question is this: what are they willing to do and what are you willing to live with. Zarek was willing do quite a lot. Geata forgot to ask that part of the question.

    The problem is, they seem to have forgotten that the people outside of their immediate circle don't have a window into the reasons for most of that trust, and they really do have to work harder to earn it from the wider fleet, especially in a time of ultimate disillusionment in the aftermath of Earth. From an outside perspective, the civilian government has just become a Public Relations arm of the military.


    An excellent point, and one which clears the moral complicity of everyone but the two men who faced the firing squad. At least to some degree.

    A point stolen from another board:

    The real key to the episode was people's humanity coming to the surface. The Cylons did not run. Kelly(?) did not shoot The Chief. Adama would not kill men in cold blood. Geata would not fire into the fleet. And for the record, I think it is well implied by the Baltar scene that their was either a trial or simply a confession form both men.