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    • CommentAuthorchris g
    • CommentTimeFeb 7th 2009
     (4756.1)
    oh yeah, I loved how Badger/Romo wanted to ditch Starbuck sooo bad, but says fuck it and helps. Human side got the best of him, beautiful!!
  1.  (4756.2)
    @Jtraub:

    Zarek is, to me, akin to someone like Reinhard Heydrich who was terrifying even by Nazi standards. Zarek had this planned since the very start. Oh, the specific didn't matter, he was a cancer cell waiting for an opportunity, amassing information, probing weaknesses and getting ready for the stars to align, and in Gaeta, they did just that.

    And the point about only the inner circle being in the know, really well said. I mentioned it upthread, but if you found out that the Bushies were right, that Gitmo was necessary, the extraordinary renditions, the invasion of Iraq, the whole fucking mess was all necessary to prevent something even worse, dear god, can you imagine how that would reverberate?
    Adama and the rest do awful, frightening and "wrong" things just to serve the "greater good". Question is, what will be left of them when it's all over?
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      CommentAuthorjohnjones
    • CommentTimeFeb 7th 2009 edited
     (4756.3)
    @ Orwelleyes

    Harry Turtledove put together a really nasty What-If scenario in The Man with the Iron Heart that based on the notion of what would have occurred if Heydich had lived. Answer: something even worse than the current occupation of Iraq.
  2.  (4756.4)
    And the point about only the inner circle being in the know, really well said. I mentioned it upthread, but if you found out that the Bushies were right, that Gitmo was necessary, the extraordinary renditions, the invasion of Iraq, the whole fucking mess was all necessary to prevent something even worse, dear god, can you imagine how that would reverberate?


    Well, the real trick is imagine they were right, and but here is constant evidence they are right. Then suddenly they reversed course on everything, not only were all those ideas misplaced after all, we are now working with friends from those organizations. Wouldn't Tom Zarek sound a little bit sane from the outside looking in?
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      CommentAuthorjohnjones
    • CommentTimeFeb 8th 2009
     (4756.5)
    Wouldn't Tom Zarek sound a little bit sane from the outside looking in?


    Zarek sounds a little sane from the inside looking out. I understand the logic of the FTL drive upgrades. My thing is that the Cylons have a history of deception. Even if the humans assume that everything their new Cylon "friends" told them about the Civil War is true, what happens if Cavil shows up with overwhelming force (Four or more Base Stars)? Suppose the rebel Cylons choose to sacrfice the fleet to save their own asses. They push a button, fry all the Colonial FTL drives and then either rejoin Cavil's Greater Cylon Hegemony or just run and hope Cavil will be satisfied with killing the rest of humanity.
  3.  (4756.6)
    Zarek sounds a little sane from the inside looking out.


    Which, I think is the essence of why he murdered the senate. The idea presented by Zarek sound reasonable and sane, but Zarek himself, as has been pointed out up thread, was always a spring wound and ready to be sprung. The quorum shared the same concerns, but did not trust the man who presented himself as the solution. As soon as that was clear Zarek removed them.

    However, for me the big deal remains the show is now directly and effectively responding to the most rational critique it faces as art: it is pro-fascist, a justification that the "other" is too be feared and reviled. The "other" will kill you. The "other" hates you. See "the other did it! we should do the same to them!" The Cylons have actually done all the things that racists, bigots, and conspirators always claim the "other" would do - and hate is still being shown to be the wrong choice at this point. Despite everything the only chance is to forgive and find common ground. Survival and a future lies in common humanity.
  4.  (4756.7)
    I'm still in shock that this series, as opposed to Heroes and Star Trek just keeps getting better and better
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      CommentAuthorJay Kay
    • CommentTimeFeb 8th 2009
     (4756.8)
    @EllaJensen:

    Funny you mention Heroes, since as I was watching the latest episode last week and it's pretty awkward political metaphors, I couldn't help but think, "Gods, they should leave the political allagories to BSG."
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      CommentAuthorjohnjones
    • CommentTimeFeb 8th 2009
     (4756.9)
    @EllaJensen

    I'll qualify that to say that the show has been getting better since it hit a serious low point over the back half of Season 3. In fact, this is the only season second half that hasn't been put in the shadow of its first half. Indeed, it seems the show is very much saving the best for last, which is great. I just hope the last six episodes measure up to the previous two.
  5.  (4756.10)
    @johnjones

    I really wonder if the strike gave them time to refine and perfect in their heads the shooting scripts. To my knowledge only the first episode of the last 10 was in the can before the strike. Because the latter half of season 2 was weak (though it ended well) and the end of season 3 was an absolute mess.
    •  
      CommentAuthorjohnjones
    • CommentTimeFeb 8th 2009
     (4756.11)
    @ JTraud

    As I understood it, they had the first 13 in the can, but I could easily be wrong. It does make sense to me that the strike gave them time to do two seasons of ten, which removed the "back-half" curse.

    Though for my part I consider Season 1 to really last up through the seventh episode of Season 2, which Season 2 starting with the introduction of Lucy Lawless' character and lasting through the Cylons landing on New Caprica. In which case you had six good-to-great episodes (especially the Pegasus storyline) a couple of clunkers and then a strong ending with One Year Later and the Cylon takeover.
    • CommentAuthorStefanJ
    • CommentTimeFeb 8th 2009
     (4756.12)
    The reason people abbreviate JMS is no one can remember how to spell his last name.

    * * *

    Cripes. Finished watching the episode this evening. Sheeaht.

    Looks like were in for more mystical stuff and strange revelations next week.
  6.  (4756.13)
    @StefanJ

    Hah. Well that and he sorta has accepted it as his name in public, like calling Peter David PAD. Or various comic writers by their chosen pseudonyms perhaps, to be more generous.

    @johnjones

    Honestly, a lot of season 2's weak epissodes were simply, as you say, clunkers. Still watchable. But yeah we also had the excellent Downloaded for example, and the great ending. It was season 3's latter half that seemed to just sort hit a wall of unwatchable dreck. Season 4 recovered nicely, and the back half of season 4 is as consistently good as the show has been in memory so far.
    • CommentAuthorSteadyUP
    • CommentTimeFeb 9th 2009 edited
     (4756.14)
    I don't really want to get into a thing about this, but I feel compelled to chime in and just say that I actually liked all of season three. The Woman King wasn't astounding or anything, but it wasn't bad. I loved the boxing episode. And I don't think TV gets much better than The Son Also Rises/Crossroads.
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      CommentAuthorjohnjones
    • CommentTimeFeb 9th 2009
     (4756.15)
    @SteadyUp @JTraub

    The only season 2 shows that were real clunkers for me were that "Black Market" show and the one were Billy died after Dee effectively dumped him and he got shot. Even that was one saved by the President grieving over her dead "son."

    Back half of Season 3, though, was filled with chucky badness. "The Woman King" felt like it took -place in an alternate dimension. There was that wierd ep that Olmos directed which had Adama having fights with his wife in his head. The one where Kara went crazy(er) and died. The Son Also Rises, in which Lee's Daddy issues could choke a Vaper engine. Romo Lampkin. And I'm sorry, the actor is cool, but at this point the character felt like someone pulled into the show from somebody else's semi-decently written Battlestar Galactica fanfic. It's really only been since the last episode that I've thought that Romo Lampkin finally became a character who fit in the Galactica universe as written by Moore and Eick, and that mostly because he killed a dude by stabbing him in the throat with a pen. And finally the revelation of the Final Four through a Mid-east beat version of "All Along the Watchtower." About the only one of the "Five" to come out of that with their dignity was Tigh. And at the end we get Starbuck popping up like some sort of faery sprite in her new ultra-white Viper babbling about Earth. It was a complete creative mess with only a few bright spots shining through here and there.

    Finally, the Fourth season has us back on track.
    • CommentAuthorLani
    • CommentTimeFeb 9th 2009
     (4756.16)
    @johnjones - totally agree re: Black Market. I really think that was their weakest episode by a lot and pretty much wretched through and through. I read an interview with the writers, and they seem to agree with that assessment, actually.
  7.  (4756.17)
    Black Market has been kinda disavowed as a mistake if I recall, yes.

    The Woman King was one of the worst examples of what has been called the "Saint Helo" effect. Something season four has been thankfully free of. The "Saint Helo" effect is an episode focused on Helo where, to once again show the Helo has a very strong moral sense of identity and a strong moral compass, everyone else acts insane. Their own well established morals and beliefs are void so Helo can guide them.
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      CommentAuthorjohnjones
    • CommentTimeFeb 9th 2009
     (4756.18)
    @ JTraub

    Agreed, though as I understand it, The Woman King was supposed to tie into a bunch of stuff that happened on New Caprica that they never got around to filling in. It was an ending to a storyline that was never written.

    That said, I did love Tigh's furious "SHUT THE FRAK UP!" right at the end. I could watch Tigh yelling at other people to shut up all day long sometimes.
    • CommentAuthorearl
    • CommentTimeFeb 9th 2009
     (4756.19)
    They must have a ship that is really cranking out the booze, as they really go through it on this show. I just like the fact that there is a TV show with so much drunk and disorderly conduct. The fact they are doing it on a spaceship while being chased by some crazy religious robot people in space ships that look like how Detroit techno sounds is killer.

    I think the storyline kind of jumped the shark in that the final 5 seems kind of tagged on, but hey it has led to some great drunken bawling and brawling between old men and that is just not something you get to see on TV much.
    • CommentAuthorSteadyUP
    • CommentTimeFeb 9th 2009
     (4756.20)
    They must have a ship that is really cranking out the booze, as they really go through it on this show.
    I know, right??

    @johnjones -

    *shrug* I disagree. But yeah, the Black Market one wasn't great.