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  1.  (4756.1)
    You mean every civilian ship with a jump drive could've made its escape and done damage to enemy ships at the same time... all this time?

    I’ve always had the impression that the civilian ships have few or no weapons, are extremely fragile, and are not very maneuverable. So it seems likely that any attempt by a civilian ship to charge a Basestar would result in the civilian ship being blasted to bits.
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      CommentAuthorjohnjones
    • CommentTimeMar 4th 2009
     (4756.2)
    1. The Chief can spot Boomer immediately but Helo can't tell his wife isn't his wife? I mean, granted, she's not even in the same body she was when they first fell in love (she switched hides when she went off to rescue Hera, remember?), but... really, Helo? And should we read something either Cylon-y or meaning-of-love-y into that?

    2. If the BSG writers had decided early on that jump drives created a dangerous wake when they were activated, the tactics of the Fleet might have been wildly different. You mean every civilian ship with a jump drive could've made its escape and done damage to enemy ships at the same time... all this time?

    2.5 Or more nit-pickingly, the Galactica is supposed to be able to withstand another jump or so, but it cannot survive the aftereffects of a tiny ship jumping nearby? Uh... This would bother me less if the next episode didn't seem to stem dramatically from this technobabble-inflicted wound.


    1. Well, yes. Helo's not a Cylon. He doesn't have the innate capability to tell one Cylon of a specfic model from another one without specfic visual or behavioral cues. Plus consider that Athena and Boomer share a common resevoir of memories. Boomer is able to fool Helo because she knows Helo. Helo gets fooled because he's not a Cylon and because he wasn't expecting what occurred.

    2. What James said.

    2.5 Jump-drives work on the fabric of space-time. Think about lightning and thunder. Thunder is the air-molecules moving back into position after lightning blasts them aside. Thunder two or three miles away can be loud but not damaging. Now think about what thunder would be like if a lightning bolt zinged past you about a foot from your head. Kind of like that. Plus consider that the last couple of episode have been expounding on the idea that Galactica is riddled with cracks and damage and just one too-hard kick from falling completely apart. Boomer just delivered a hellava kick.
  2.  (4756.3)
    The jump-wake bugged me about the episode, too. Why wouldn't the Cylon Raiders just jump in right by or inside the Galactica? Why don't the Raptors do the same to the Base Ships?
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      CommentAuthorScribe
    • CommentTimeMar 4th 2009
     (4756.4)
    The jump-wake bugged me about the episode, too. Why wouldn't the Cylon Raiders just jump in right by or inside the Galactica? Why don't the Raptors do the same to the Base Ships?


    What if you miscalculate. Two objects can not occupy the same space.
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      CommentAuthorWordWill
    • CommentTimeMar 4th 2009 edited
     (4756.5)
    Good points, all. (Though if Helo can't pick up "behavioral cues" when he's frakking Boomer, either he's a dolt or all 8s frak the same, I guess.)

    Some of these are where I went initially, too, but I've been curious lately how much exposition I should be projecting onto the show versus the amount it gives me. I mean, is the job of reconciling the ramifications of destructive jump technology being delegated to us in the audience because a) only us super-nerds will care, b) our affection for the show will compel us to do the work anyway, c) both, or d) it's not? We've been told for a couple of episodes that the Galactica's in trouble, yes, but we were told earlier in this same episode that she probably had a couple of jumps left in her. This episode doesn't reconcile that with the effects of Boomer's escape... so why give the Chief that line at all? (My guess is so that the Galactica can make one last desperate jump, that might destroy her, in the direction of a new and final home for humanity — a climactic leap of faith.)

    Anyway, my point is that I'm naturally (but not necessarily rightly) wary of world-building details — like the damaging effects of jump travel — when they occur during the last 95% of the story. In the case of Galactica, where they're presented as a consequence of dramatic action and choices throughout the series, that's welcome. But they're right on the line, in my opinion.

    Admittedly, I'm probably singling out these issues out of my own fear and snobbery. That said, I'm on guard because I'm worried about more cheap dramatic shortcuts showing up in the home stretch here.

    Specifically, if it really is an issue of Cylons just being that hard to tell apart, even when we know they're Cylons, and even when we're married to them, then I'll be terribly disappointed if we get a situation where Athena blames Helo for sleeping with her twin sister and claiming not to know it. I can get "Then maybe you don't even really love me!"-style soapy hysterics on any primetime drama. Athena had better grok, as well as you all seem to, that he could get duped like that. If she does, she gets to go through a special kind of hurting (and doubtless crying) that I can't get on Grey's Anatomy. BSG is in a rare position here to do something with the idea that Helo was taken advantage of and that Athena, maybe, had worried about this risk before or (more interestingly?) will now wish she had. If their unique relationship, featuring an uncommon individual from a race of lookalike machines, falls into rote yelling about adulterous spouses, when time is this short, I'll be let down.

    But I should give them their chance to fuck it up or not, to be sure.
    •  
      CommentAuthorjohnjones
    • CommentTimeMar 4th 2009 edited
     (4756.6)
    Specifically, if it really is an issue of Cylons just being that hard to tell apart, even when we know they're Cylons, and even when we're married to them, then I'll be terribly disappointed if we get a situation where Athena blames Helo for sleeping with her twin sister and claiming not to know it. I can get "Then maybe you don't even really love me!"-style soapy hysterics on any primetime drama. Athena had better grok, as well as you all seem to, that he could get duped like that. If she does, she gets to go through a special kind of hurting (and doubtless crying) that I can't get on Grey's Anatomy.


    You're forgetting that it's not just an issue of telling one physical body from another. It's a matter of telling one version of a person from a slightly different version of that very same person. And I think we've mostly seen Athena's reaction to Helo's "infidelity" when she was hugging him and pounding him with her fist. She knew he was being fooled. She watched it. And she had to watch it silently because she knew that if she tried to alert Helo, she'd most likely only succeed in altering Boomer. Who would murder him without a second thought. So, watching your husband not only fuck your twin but having to keep silent and endure because otherwise your husband would die? Yeah, I'd call that a "special kind of hurting" that would send Grey's Anatomy running for the Prozac.
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      CommentAuthorStargrave
    • CommentTimeMar 5th 2009
     (4756.7)
    or all 8s frak the same, I guess.


    i think its safe to assume that they frak like machines.

    terrible joke i know.
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      CommentAuthorWordWill
    • CommentTimeMar 6th 2009
     (4756.8)
    You're forgetting that it's not just an issue of telling one physical body from another. It's a matter of telling one version of a person from a slightly different version of that very same person.

    Is it? The show's been sort of vague with just how distinct individual units from the same model can be and what sort of vibes humans can pick up on to tell them apart. This episode clearly asserts that you can't tell one from another, but the show as a whole hasn't always been so firm in that assertion — is it just the hair styles that help people tell the Sixes apart or is that a dramatic cue for us in the audience?

    You may very well be right, and the answer is that with all the Eights on board Helo has to go on context and trust alone to identify Athena, but I think it's odd that we in the audience would be left to make that assumption, especially if this scene relies on us reaching the same conclusion you did. I think it's more likely that we're meant to chew on the question like this, else they would've addressed it in the writing somewhere.

    I get that we can't tell Cylons apart from humans, but the assumption that we can't tell Cylons apart from one another, even with a lot of familiarity, feels like a rule of the setting put into play late in the game. (Like the FTL drive's ability to punch holes in stuff.) Introducing or assuming these kinds of details about fictional technology (whether it's FTL drives or Cylons) this late in the third act of the tale is either sketchy... or just taking fair advantage of the fact that the writers don't have to worry about sustaining another 20 episodes worth of fake-tech continuity after this.

    Whatever. Maybe I'm the only person on the planet who responded this way, but my reaction was, "Is that how that's worked all this time?" Maybe it's just what comes with me not going back to rewatch the series before the finale. What do I know? I'm just hoping to take some kind of lesson away from this as a writer, at this point.

    And I think we've mostly seen Athena's reaction to Helo's "infidelity" when she was hugging him and pounding him with her fist. She knew he was being fooled. She watched it. And she had to watch it silently because she knew that if she tried to alert Helo, she'd most likely only succeed in altering Boomer. Who would murder him without a second thought.

    That immediate awful scream from Athena is one thing. I'm curious how this changes Helo and Athena's relationship. If that's all we get of their reactions, that'd be a shame, but I'll take being under-served on that over something as actively aggravating as doing something soapy with the fallout.
    • CommentAuthorhank
    • CommentTimeMar 6th 2009
     (4756.9)
    One thing that people seem to not take into account is that when a skinjob downloads, it's info get sent out to others in the same group. So presumably Boomer could have mimicked Athena convincingly enough to fool Helo. The individual that Identified Boomer when she landed with Ellen, IIRC was Athena, not one of the humans.
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      CommentAuthorWordWill
    • CommentTimeMar 6th 2009 edited
     (4756.10)
    Tyrol's the one who identified Boomer, actually — it's a great moment. It's less of a human v. Cylon knack that I'm hung up on and more about personal familiarity and hours logged with one another. Helo isn't "a human" in this equation, he's the husband. If nothing else, it seems odd to me that he and Athena haven't had some kind of talk about dangers and precautions involved with having a hundred potentially scheming lookalikes of his wife circulating throughout the ship.

    That massive shared memory across the models is a pretty strong argument for how Boomer could pull it off, but to be clear, my issue is less with the logistics of the frak in the fictional world and more with how it is all presented to us in the audience by the information the showrunners have chosen to show or withhold up to this point.

    One last thing: I'll be as happy to let this fade away with the airing of the next episode as you all will be. Sorry to clog the works with this.
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      CommentAuthorCameron C.
    • CommentTimeMar 6th 2009
     (4756.11)
    Chief identified it was Boomer, but still not a human.
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      CommentAuthorjohnjones
    • CommentTimeMar 6th 2009
     (4756.12)
    No "gray's Anatomy" bullshit between Helo and Athena. Her silence was more devastating than any words could've been. Good call on that. But mostly this was a "drifting" episode. Not much really got resolved this week, but all the various storylines inched a little closer to resolution. Next week begins the two-part, three hour series finale. I'll miss this show in many ways, but in just as many ways I thank the Gods that it's finally over one way or another.
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      CommentAuthorCameron C.
    • CommentTimeMar 6th 2009
     (4756.13)
    wait... so hour and a half episode next week? Awesome. This episode was definitely a set up type episode, we saw a little bit of chip six again and that vision again. I am pretty excited :o
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      CommentAuthorjohnjones
    • CommentTimeMar 7th 2009
     (4756.14)
    @ sgrsickness

    No, I think it's one hour next week with a two-hour finale the week after.
    • CommentAuthorchris g
    • CommentTimeMar 7th 2009
     (4756.15)
    What dick; Gaius using Starbuck's situation to spread his crap/message whatever. Maybe he didn't intend for it to come out like that, but the people knowing him for what he is probably couldn't help but interpret it as the same old crap he spews.

    also: Abandon ship mother frakkers!!! Admiral Breakdown hath spoken!
  3.  (4756.16)
    Gaius using Starbuck's situation to spread his crap/message whatever.

    I’m really tired of Baltar. He used to be one of the most compelling characters on the show and now he just makes episodes drag on. But with so little time left I think some kind of deus ex machina is all we can expect for the storyline (well, that or everyone dies) so maybe his Cylon God will pop up or something.
  4.  (4756.17)
    Less soap opera, more story... it's all I ask for in these final episodes. Last night I could have reached thru the TV and slapped the fraking writers.
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      CommentAuthorjohnjones
    • CommentTimeMar 8th 2009
     (4756.18)
    The past four episodes have been slow due to background info and setup, a little like watching a guy set up a whole shitload of dominos. Next week the dominos begin to fall. I predict awesomeness and space porn.
  5.  (4756.19)
    I predict awesomeness and space porn.

    You more space shots recycled from the pilot? ;b
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      CommentAuthorjohnjones
    • CommentTimeMar 13th 2009 edited
     (4756.20)
    Just a reminder that the finale starts tonight. It's been a fun, if depressing ride, but I'm glad it'll soon be over one way or another.