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  1.  (4756.1)
    Was your annoyance aimed at me, the NYT article, or both? I was a little confused.


    Entirely the article. Not you even a little bit.

    Edit: or to make sure I am clear and don't offend by error: I think there is an excellent debate to be had over the Luddite stuff. I don't like it either as a rule. But, I am not a fan of the reviewers knee-jerk offense as a fellow atheist complete with misconstruing the beliefs of the writers (well Moore in specific) becuase he did not like what was said in fiction.
    • CommentAuthorStefanJ
    • CommentTimeMar 21st 2009
     (4756.2)
    Now that it's over . . .

    I don't think I'll ever watch an episode of the show again, with two exceptions.

    If I can get a commercial-free HD copy of the last episode, I'll watch that.

    And same conditions for the first episode, which I watched an edited version of on NBC, and then with a dog-walk interruption in the middle.

    Why: I don't think I can take watching the characters suffer again. It was hard enough the first time through.
  2.  (4756.3)
    On the whole "Return to a simpler time" thing. It's a nagging nerd whine for me I confess, but I think it was a sacrifice for a greater idea.

    Getting rid of all the tech is a bad idea. These people had been living in glorified hamster cages for the better part four years. How many of them were farmers? How many of them had medical training? How many of them could even build a shelter to last through a rainy season? There's a hell of a difference between thinking a kindle is a bit much and giving up on water purification for moral reasons.

    But again, it serves a greater good. It allows them to disappear into pre-history. It allows the cycle to go on. You get a better ending overall I think.

    Nerd alert here. In the "Star Trek: First Contact" movie there's a scene where they abandon ship over earth in the early 21st century (time travel, borg, whatever) and patrick stewart has this amazing line, stuck in my head for ages. "Tell them to keep out of the way of history". The BSG folks don't have to worry about that.


    As for the Atheism/Theism, I like Josh's term "allergic Atheism". I'm a Unitarian Universalist, there are members of my church who are Atheists and Agnostic. We've read "The End of Faith" and "God is Not Great" along with "Mere Christianity" and "City of God" in our book group. We've also talked about BSG, more than any other show actually. Not because we're nerds (most of them are not) but because it's a show that actually engages questions of religion, belief, non-belief and ethics in a way that's accessible and yet not pedantic.

    Go look at some of the depictions of Atheists on American Tv, they're either irascible assholes or just begging for some moment of spiritual clarity. Religion is portrayed either as cloying Oprah-style new agery set to Coldplay or fanatics gibbering and howling at the moon. Tv is a medium that rewards extreme points of view, BSG, for all it's flaws, took pains to have nuance.
  3.  (4756.4)
    Re: the Luddite issue.

    I kept thinking of the refining ship after it was over. The people who, day in and out, worked as space coal miners until a lottery was needed to prevent an oligarchy arising. While giving up water purification is stupid when considered, I think the show used the overall idea to reinforce how the fleet was tired of being the fleet. The last luxury ship exploded in nuclear fire nearly 3 years before. The last tube of tooth paste was an incentive. The ship captains implied they needed Gallactica's parts to keep their own birds in the air. Chief is a microcosm of this in a way, a desire to wash your hands clean and vanish. Symbolism in the broad strokes trumped the details of the things they should have kept. It is also worth noting this is the society which gave up advanced networked computer architecture for 40 years becuase of the Cylons.
  4.  (4756.5)
    @Jtraub:

    Good points. And there is an element of "Dear god, I never want to see ANY of these people again. Galen's whole arc was one of betrayal after betrayal. His lover, his wife, his cylon sister. I imagine a lot of those people went through nightmares and just wanted to escape, tabula rasa.


    Fuck, given the current cultural doom mood, the idea of buying a few acres, running a garden and firing warning shots at anyone getting too close has massive appeal. And I'm a dazzling urbanite with oodles of toothpaste to spare.

    One note, Galactica was the only ship to survive because it was the only one that didn't have a networked computer system. All the rest were paralyzed during the cylon attack.

    I think I have to go do something porn-related soon to escape the event horizon of my own nerdiness.
  5.  (4756.6)
    One note, Galactica was the only ship to survive because it was the only one that didn't have a networked computer system.


    I am a horrible nerd mode: Which was a new system as I recall, just brought on-line, after decades of it being a verboten. And it helped end the world. See: Gina being sent to supervise it on the Pegasus in Razor (which was offline during the attack I think?). Baltar was an advocate of reintroducing all the banned technology.
    • CommentAuthorLani
    • CommentTimeMar 21st 2009
     (4756.7)
    On an entirely different note,

    Roslin and one of her former students? I realize it's probably been 20 years since she was his teacher, but it still creeps me out. I realize I'm probably in the minority on the idea of hooking up with a teacher.
  6.  (4756.8)
    @Jtraub: You win. But at what price victory sir? :)

    @racingpenguins: Demi Moore?

    I'll be frank and possibly sexist, Mary McDonnell is gorgeous. And that voice...throaty and wonderful. I'll confess that seeing her in the flashbacks was nice simply because she was not looking as stricken.

    That's another thing I really liked about the show, they showed someone living with cancer who wasn't either perfectly healthy or completely bed ridden. She had good days and bad, strong and weak. If you've known someone with the disease that uncertainty is part and parcel.
  7.  (4756.9)
    @Orwell

    A pyrrhic victory to be sure. I gave up any sense of dignity in this thread months ago. I need to find a serious legal or political topic as soon as this thread is closed, and need to find one fast.

    @Racingpenguins

    I have to agree with Orwell, but to step away from McDonnell herself, it was used as a lens to focus how she moved from grief to the political campaign. She did not want a relationship with an former student about 20 years her junior. She wanted her life back, or a life back, and not that way.
    • CommentAuthorLani
    • CommentTimeMar 21st 2009
     (4756.10)
    Oh, don't mistake me, I don't think less of her character for it and I understand why they did that. Hell, I have friends in real life who have done similar things. But, coming from a line of teachers and having done some teaching myself, it automatically sets off the "ack!!" response. :)
    •  
      CommentAuthororwellseyes
    • CommentTimeMar 21st 2009 edited
     (4756.11)
    @racingpenguins:

    One of my first gigs out of college was at a high school. At 24 I was not much older than the students and was even confused for one on a couple of very awkward occasions by fellow teachers.

    People who would joke with me "aw man, all those hot 18 year old girls...:" and so on would get a stern lecture from me if they were lucky and a simple rant about power dynamics and sexual propriety if not. The line "I'd sooner date an infant" came up, a lot.

    I've always been a sucker for older women. My girlfriend and I are seperated by a decade and she's simply breath-taking.

    (Airing out the room from geek minutiae a bit, pardon my drift)
  8.  (4756.12)
    I have taught for nearly two years, I can certainly see the reaction.

    One more bit of random nerdiness. Really really nerdy. (Yes I got 4 and 5 confused, but I don't think that impacts anything - correct now).

    1: A scientist, like his creators, prone to pure (pre-defined) rationalist world view even when it actually conflicts with evidence. Leadership characteristics an important element.
    2: Opposite extreme, a religious fanatic prone to belief in prophecy and magical-reasoning. Also prone to acts that would be easily called insanity.
    3: Attempt at a pragmatist, who ultimately while deep is also prone to fanaticism in various forms. Another leader attempt, and seems very stable on the surface.
    4: Second attempt at a scientist, and a pure technocrat. Also shows evidence of following, but in a can't be bothered outside of the numbers way.
    5: Second pragmatist, now entirely shallow and a manipulator, with little evidence of philosophy. Shows evidence of following not leading.
    6: Appears to be the most successful Cylon model considered as a Cylon, shows evidence of variability of all the above traits from model to model. Prone to not understanding people. Eventual leader of the Cylons.
    7: First and only attempt at an artist. Might have been similar to the Eights, but with a less technical bent.
    8: Last and most successful (surviving) Cylon model considered as a person. Shows high variability in character traits like a Six, but with more indecisiveness.. Prone to reacting with emotions.
    Mother of humanity
    .

    There was obviously not a plan from the start, but I think that works nicely.

    Edit: Worthwhile comment on Sixes post finale.
    Sixes have often been described as deeply religious, comparable with the Twos. However, when you remove ChipSix from this analysis (who is not actually a Six in any practical way, just appears as one to Baltar), the actual Sixes show variability in regards to this issue, if a tendency twoards general acceptance of monotheism in their dialogue.
    •  
      CommentAuthorobliterati
    • CommentTimeMar 21st 2009
     (4756.13)
    I'm having a time out until I can learn some manners.
    <div id="hide">When Anders flew the fleet into the sun his last words were about meeting Starbuck "on the other side" or something, and then Starbuck teleports away or dissipates into something immaterial or at least is not standing in that field with Lee anymore. Are we to presume maybe that she went to the sun to become a hydrogen fusion reaction with her robot vegetable husband and all their spaceship friends? And isn't there a great joke in there somewhere about Anders evolving into an espresso machine over thousands of years and becoming part of Earth's ancient coffee mythology? I mean he's submerged in steamed milk already right? All those other names like Athena and Apollo presumabIy became part of ancient Greek religion, so what about Starbuck?</div>
  9.  (4756.14)
    @Obliterati

    Speaking as someone who takes this all way too seriously: That comment is pure win, yes that is.
    • CommentAuthorlooneynerd
    • CommentTimeMar 21st 2009
     (4756.15)
    What the hell is the chance of them using English, then it evolving again independently a few hundred thousand years later?
  10.  (4756.16)
    @looneynerd:

    You're assuming they were speaking English to begin with.

    And Obliterati racks up all the win with that explination, yes indeed.

    A spoiler filled after-screening chat with Ron Moore and some of the cast. Vague answers and intentions there.

    And the IO9 review is up. As usual the folks there seem to have been watching something completely different than what I saw. Of course this is the site that flogs the fuck out of Stargate, though they do recommend some find speculative fiction books from time to time.
    •  
      CommentAuthorjohnjones
    • CommentTimeMar 21st 2009
     (4756.17)
    @ Orwelleyes

    I think there's another couple of very good reasons to abandon advanced technology and burn the ships. The first is to keep the humans safe from the Centurians. It wasn't mentioned, but I think there was a tacit bargain between the Centurians and the Fleet that went something like this: We the Cylon will leave you be as long as you're not even a potential threat. Stay on your new world, blend with the natives, prove you can change and live in peace and we'll stay away and leave you to build your lives. Keep your technology, try to rebuild your former power, try to become a threat us and we'll end you completely.

    Another portion of removing the tech is the removal of the temptation to mastery. As Colonials are now, they'll have to interact with the Earth natives as relative equals. Sure some people brought guns or knives or various small tech items (Adama still has a Raptor, for Gods' sake), but they they didn't bring down their ships. They don't have the heavy mining and refining equipment to jump-start a modern infrastructure.

    Consider if they had. They could've restarted a version of their modern life. However, modern infrastructure requires interdependency. The Colonists couldn't just scatter. They'd need to pull together to create the massive farms, factories and mines needed to support a modern infrastructure. And of course they'd need weapons to defend themselves from potentially hostile natives whose awe of "the skygods" was insufficient to prevent violence. And for that matter, the natives are a huge workforce that's just going to waste hunting and gathering, wouldn't it better to bring them in as slaves er, workers to do the heavy-lifting? Also, we need to explore this world and set up outposts to expand the civilization once the population starts to really take off.

    Give it a few decades and the colonials will be masters of Earth, with the natives either dead or slaves. And of course they'll remember the Cylons, who may still be a threat out there somewhere, and so the cycle starts back up again...
  11.  (4756.18)
    The inescapable conclusion of JESUSSTAR GODLACTICA is in fact that Bob Dylan is God.

    I will let you wank until Monday.
    •  
      CommentAuthoroddbill
    • CommentTimeMar 21st 2009
     (4756.19)
    ... and Jimi Hendrix is his prophet.
    •  
      CommentAuthorkrushdbug
    • CommentTimeMar 21st 2009
     (4756.20)
    I like how they all ended up living on the Windows XP desktop background.