Whitechapel - Religion in a drowned world Sat, 25 May 2013 20:29:39 -0700 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.1.4 & Feed Publisher Religion in a drowned world http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=4952&Focus=125228#Comment_125228 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=4952&Focus=125228#Comment_125228 Thu, 05 Feb 2009 10:21:13 -0800 dirtymc11 Especially interesting would be to see how some of the more desperate members of the 'angels' enclave view the 'angels themselves. I am sure there have to be some who have an almost messianic view of them.
I can see cults that view them as the 2nd coming of Christ. Come to sit in judgement of the world and then to establish a thousand year reign.
Even more interesting would be something like the cults in Ape and Essence (by Aldous Huxley). HE had the people worshipping Satan not because they viewed him as good but because they understood the apocalypse to have been the victory of Satan over God.
Remember that it has been the norm for most of religious history to view the supernatural and especially Gods as things to be feared and placated so that they do not inflict further suffering.
Maybe something like this has occurred in WhiteChapel.
Interesting to think about? ]]> Religion in a drowned world http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=4952&Focus=125231#Comment_125231 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=4952&Focus=125231#Comment_125231 Thu, 05 Feb 2009 10:34:45 -0800 Val A Lindsay II Religion in a drowned world http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=4952&Focus=125234#Comment_125234 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=4952&Focus=125234#Comment_125234 Thu, 05 Feb 2009 10:37:47 -0800 dirtymc11 Do you think Jesus would have appreciated the attention being taken away from his father? ]]> Religion in a drowned world http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=4952&Focus=125235#Comment_125235 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=4952&Focus=125235#Comment_125235 Thu, 05 Feb 2009 10:38:55 -0800 dirtymc11 Religion in a drowned world http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=4952&Focus=125242#Comment_125242 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=4952&Focus=125242#Comment_125242 Thu, 05 Feb 2009 11:10:28 -0800 warrenellis Religion in a drowned world http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=4952&Focus=125248#Comment_125248 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=4952&Focus=125248#Comment_125248 Thu, 05 Feb 2009 11:19:19 -0800 Jay Kay
I'm not sure if the FA's are considered dieties yet, but if their powers are revealed, I'm sure some will believe they are. ]]> Religion in a drowned world http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=4952&Focus=125252#Comment_125252 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=4952&Focus=125252#Comment_125252 Thu, 05 Feb 2009 11:30:29 -0800 Willow Bl00 Religion in a drowned world http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=4952&Focus=125269#Comment_125269 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=4952&Focus=125269#Comment_125269 Thu, 05 Feb 2009 12:12:42 -0800 dirtymc11 America is a society where religion is not supposed to be a factor. However noone has ever gotten elected to federal office of any kind if they have stated that they are atheist. It is easier for a Muslim (my home state just sent the 1st to washington), or (gasp and horror) a gay man to be elected than someone who claims to not be religious. For some reason somehow people got the idea in their head that one NEEDS God to be A good person.
They forget the saying "it is easy to get an evil man to do good things but in order to get a good man to do evil things you must have religion."
I am an atheist myself but I find the idea of religion to be endlessly fascinating (especially how it gets morphed on the ground.) ]]> Religion in a drowned world http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=4952&Focus=125306#Comment_125306 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=4952&Focus=125306#Comment_125306 Thu, 05 Feb 2009 15:05:46 -0800 orwellseyes
Speaking as a theist, albeit a Unitarian, I get very nervous when my secular leaders start chatting about Jesus. Mainly because their conception of Christianity is rooted in the Thrid Great Awkening, which if you think the fundies of today are crazy, woo boy. Temperance Leagues...yikes. ]]> Religion in a drowned world http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=4952&Focus=125311#Comment_125311 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=4952&Focus=125311#Comment_125311 Thu, 05 Feb 2009 15:41:41 -0800 agentarsenic Religion in a drowned world http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=4952&Focus=125322#Comment_125322 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=4952&Focus=125322#Comment_125322 Thu, 05 Feb 2009 16:29:05 -0800 nigredo
Remember that it has been the norm for most of religious history to view the supernatural and especially Gods as things to be feared and placated so that they do not inflict further suffering.


Not to nitpick but that's not true unless you refer to specific pagan religious traditions before orthodox christianity and even then it's a levelling assumption. ]]> Religion in a drowned world http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=4952&Focus=125365#Comment_125365 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=4952&Focus=125365#Comment_125365 Thu, 05 Feb 2009 20:53:22 -0800 Foley
History teaches us that. If it wasn't a few organized religions making coppers off of gullible salvation-seekers, then it would be smaller denominations with less scruples. Either that, or outright cults. The last thing people would need on top of food searches, weapon hording, salvaging, and the constant struggle of procuring clean water are Jim Jones and David Koresh wannabes popping up left and right.

Watch "The Mist". People will believe anything when the chips are down, and governments (or leaders in general, really) aren't around to hold their hand through life anymore. ]]> Religion in a drowned world http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=4952&Focus=125375#Comment_125375 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=4952&Focus=125375#Comment_125375 Thu, 05 Feb 2009 22:09:09 -0800 Val A Lindsay II
Religion was and, for more than a few in today's society, is the government. Scarier still, it's hard for me to believe that the rules of most religions are followed for any other reason than fear of eternal damnation, not moral nor ethical reasons. Otherwise there wouldn't be such an emphasis on "Hell" in most religious texts, eh?

The only problem with the "Mist" analogy is the story is fiction, so it only illustrates the point of view of one storywriter. ]]> Religion in a drowned world http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=4952&Focus=125380#Comment_125380 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=4952&Focus=125380#Comment_125380 Thu, 05 Feb 2009 22:45:10 -0800 orwellseyes
Mind you, modern fundamentalism takes an even more askance view of science than the monks dotting the european countryside, but I could see certain religious traditions playing a community-organizing role in a drowned world.

God, I could see the Jesuits all but rejoicing at the "oppurtunity" this would afford them. ]]> Religion in a drowned world http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=4952&Focus=125383#Comment_125383 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=4952&Focus=125383#Comment_125383 Thu, 05 Feb 2009 23:09:23 -0800 Val A Lindsay II
A religious community might have many ideas that are disagreeable, but as an institution they've often been means of transmitting knowledge as well, especially pre-industrial.

Yes, I wonder what happened to that practice? Maybe too much in the way of contradicting facts stepping into the picture? ]]> Religion in a drowned world http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=4952&Focus=125389#Comment_125389 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=4952&Focus=125389#Comment_125389 Fri, 06 Feb 2009 00:37:52 -0800 orwellseyes
Step back from the ongoing back and forth about religion's place, or lack of one, in society and see it as a means to an end. Say you wanted to pass down information generationally, vital information like "Why is the world this way?" or "Don't go in the radioactive areas" why not use religion as a medium of communication. The "Damned lands must not be entered" or "the great fires, the air burst, wiped the earth clean" might survive longer than any book or organized system of learning. Turning facts into stories as a means of conveyance. Look at modern efforts to examine stories and events from the bible or Qur'an or Torah. People want to know the origins of the stories, the facts behind the legend. Maybe 2000 years after a drowned world scenario future humans would use their legends to suss out the truth. ]]> Religion in a drowned world http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=4952&Focus=125390#Comment_125390 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=4952&Focus=125390#Comment_125390 Fri, 06 Feb 2009 00:47:34 -0800 looneynerd
@Val A Lindsay II

As a means of transmitting culture and knowledge, they were largely replaced by governments in modern countries. But in many developing parts of the world, religion remains the primary means of education. Take for instance the religious missionary schools set up in many third world countries, or monasteries in the Himalayan regions where state-sponsored education is virtually non-existant.


The reason religions operated as a vehicle for education is because of their inherent organization. For instance, the education offered in Europe during the dark ages; while yes, there was a Feudal system of government in place, it offered in terms of infrastructure or organization in matters outside of taxes and the military. Religion, on the other hand, was highly organized allowing for easy transmission of learning. Further, to keep their own complex traditions alive, religious people had to be well educated. Once you've finished memorizing the bible and "holy" works, you have a lot of free time as a monk to play around with other things when there's little scribe work to be done.


This academic rant has been brought to you from a very tired Graduate student :P ]]> Religion in a drowned world http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=4952&Focus=125398#Comment_125398 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=4952&Focus=125398#Comment_125398 Fri, 06 Feb 2009 01:56:38 -0800 Kradlum Not talking about religion is one thing but I would be interested to see how many athiest serve in Parlaiment? One can remain silent about ones religion but how often does seeking public office require one to act as if they have one.?

No, we don't just not talk about religion, most of us don't actually care about religion. As far as I can see, a lot of people who pay lip service to religion in this country just do it to get their kids into a particular school. ]]> Religion in a drowned world http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=4952&Focus=125432#Comment_125432 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=4952&Focus=125432#Comment_125432 Fri, 06 Feb 2009 06:07:53 -0800 Gekko Look at those bus campaigns. Look at that driver who felt so offended with the atheist ad he didn't want to drive his bus. Look at those people who raise money to put counter-campaigns AND offer a bible. Offended they claim they are. Insulting they become.

The don't care about what atheists feel, as if their believing there's no god was based on nothing as if non-believers had no reason to be respected then, not even heard.

Why can't they accept atheism is not about shoving in their throat there is no god. Atheism is another manifestation of diversity which nevertheless needs to become a bit more radical. ]]> Religion in a drowned world http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=4952&Focus=125459#Comment_125459 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=4952&Focus=125459#Comment_125459 Fri, 06 Feb 2009 08:29:17 -0800 RenThing
It's worth noting that I had 20+ years of Catholic education and every biology teacher I had taught us evolution without a whiff of creationism. Again, Jesuits

My wife put it like this when she was talking to her friend about her daughter's education: "Catholic schools generally educate first. Christian schools generally indoctrinate first."

Having been in both, I agree with the statement. ]]> Religion in a drowned world http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=4952&Focus=125478#Comment_125478 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=4952&Focus=125478#Comment_125478 Fri, 06 Feb 2009 09:18:27 -0800 looneynerd
But to be fair, I think the same can be said of Atheists. Many of them that I've come across are as willing to proseltyze and disrespect others as the most insane evangelical (and that's coming from someone who lives in the American bible belt). Just look at the raving antics of someone like Richard Dawkins. ]]> Religion in a drowned world http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=4952&Focus=125480#Comment_125480 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=4952&Focus=125480#Comment_125480 Fri, 06 Feb 2009 09:28:21 -0800 icelandbob
No, we don't just not talk about religion, most of us don't actually care about religion. As far as I can see, a lot of people who pay lip service to religion in this country just do it to get their kids into a particular school

I do agree, but i also feel that we as a society never used to talk about Athiesm either. I remember in 2006 when Richard Dawkins did his UK Documentary Root of all Evil? about why essentialy all religion was a load of rubbish. It seemed explosive at the time, because really no one had ever (in my knowledge) gone on TV with a Documentary that said "all religion is bad".

Mind you it did have a brilliant moment when he interviewed Yousef Al-Khattab, an ultra-radical Muslim who had once been a devout Jew. It showed perfectly the massive leaps in logic when speaking to a devout believer about athiesm.

Yousef: So you do not belive in god then?
RD: Yes that is what i true. I do not believe in God or religion.
Yousef: Oh so you're ok to have your women naked, drunk and having sex in the middle of the street then? DO YOU???

The look on Dawkins face when presented with this mindset was absolutely priceless! ]]> Religion in a drowned world http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=4952&Focus=125484#Comment_125484 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=4952&Focus=125484#Comment_125484 Fri, 06 Feb 2009 09:40:26 -0800 Willow Bl00 @nigredo
@ dirtymc11
Remember that it has been the norm for most of religious history to view the supernatural and especially Gods as things to be feared and placated so that they do not inflict further suffering.


Not to nitpick but that's not true unless you refer to specific pagan religious traditions before orthodox christianity and even then it's a levelling assumption.


What do you think the Old Testament is, then? And while New Christians claim that their God is a loving one, why all the Homos Caused Katrina stuff? It's not as blatant as "sacrifice or be killed," but it's still explaining things we fear in terms of what we didn't do right.


@looneynerd Thank you for the academia. I miss my Old Testament classes and Sociology of Religion. These were the only things that allowed me to not view those in religion as complete nutcases. Religion really does serve a purpose, and those who choose to participate aren't necessarily weak or manipulative... it just makes sense to them. (I'm sure there are people who are into it for those reasons, but I don't think it's the majority of people).

Religion is about community, about having an explaination, about having some (imagined) sense of control over the uncontrollable. I think if the conditions were right there would be religion in the FA world. Or maybe they're allowing the people enough security and community that they wouldn't need it. I think the starving people outside of Whitechapel would definitely have it to some degree. ]]> Religion in a drowned world http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=4952&Focus=125517#Comment_125517 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=4952&Focus=125517#Comment_125517 Fri, 06 Feb 2009 11:50:45 -0800 Gekko You might (or might not) be miffed by what I'm going to tell you but I don't see belligerent atheists as *true* atheists. I'm not really proud of, or feel on the side of people like Dawkins and Hitchens. They seem like fundamentalists to me. Enough with that.
I've always had the feeling that aggressively proselyte non-believers, the one who are obsessed with proving you are wrong to believe, they are in fact people who fear the possibility of a deity, thus, who might parlty believe. See what I mean? (I hope)
There is a difference between akwardly trying to destroy other people's beliefs and trying to have believers respect your atheism per se. The latter only is my attitude, certainly not the former.
Atheists like me need to be respected and heard for the way the perceive reality, not respected as being a potential enemy.

Back to the point:
What is interesting is that an angel is by definition a mystic character. There were angels in myths eons before the invention of monotheism (created by Akhenaton) Are Freakangels mystical freak creatures? Haven't scienctists (read Science) created our Freakangels? Is Science Itself God? O my, I'm getting discombobulated. ]]> Religion in a drowned world http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=4952&Focus=125520#Comment_125520 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=4952&Focus=125520#Comment_125520 Fri, 06 Feb 2009 11:59:37 -0800 Doctor_Six "They saved us from certain doom, AND have glowy purple eyes to boot. "

I think you could argue that the current Whitechapel residents could see the FA's as either being culpable for, or saviours from the current apocalypse - and there's probably a mixture of both.

Bet the Freakangels take great exception to being deified, though. Great point dirtymc ]]> Religion in a drowned world http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=4952&Focus=125525#Comment_125525 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=4952&Focus=125525#Comment_125525 Fri, 06 Feb 2009 12:27:40 -0800 Foley Sad to say, I completely agree with the first paragraph. An internet comedian put it best: "a secular world is a sane world", and sanity is a necessity made that much more important with the downfall of everything as we know it. I shudder to think into the clusterfuck that is the politician's agenda in present day: install as many denominational beliefs into law so that people, regardless of their beliefs (or lack thereof), go through their days the way their religion would have wanted.

With that said, the only purpose religion would really serve in post-apocalyptic times isn't that much different from what it serves today, on a global basis: coersion and the hoarding of money.

(I cited "The Mist" because, while it's one standpoint, it's a loose example of many things that could happen in the scenario we're discussing.) ]]> Religion in a drowned world http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=4952&Focus=125529#Comment_125529 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=4952&Focus=125529#Comment_125529 Fri, 06 Feb 2009 12:37:28 -0800 dirtymc11
The way I understand it noone but the 'angels knows that they caused the end of the world. Therefore all the whitechapel folks see is these supremely powerful beings who watch over them and protect them. This is exactly what the jews thought about yahweh.

While our scribe may never choose to delve into this aspect of whitechapel there are definitly folks who are either already doing so or forming the idea that the angels are gods.

When the world doesnt make sense anymore we will grab any idea that seems to take the difficulty of asking questions away from us.

And I think some of the angels would definitely welcome and maybe already are encouraging worship.

It would help the sheriff keep the piece. It would turn anything into an act of worship so long as the diety commands it.

Anyone who is out there trying to start a religion on the 'angels probably takes pains to get the flock to not speak about this openly. Aftger all some of them would definitely smack down anyone who tried to do that.

Religion has always been a tool of social control and in the history of mankind there have been long periods when it was the only one.

Diefication however usually waits until after those deified are no longer around to say 'I am not a God' (which as a believing and pracgticing Jew Jesus would have been appalled to see happen)a ]]> Religion in a drowned world http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=4952&Focus=125536#Comment_125536 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=4952&Focus=125536#Comment_125536 Fri, 06 Feb 2009 13:06:42 -0800 warrenellis