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    • CommentAuthorVorn
    • CommentTimeJan 15th 2008
    So "The Man from the Diogenes Club" by Kim Newman as an example of Shagpunk writing?

    Maybe more alternative history but as close to it as I can think of.
    • CommentAuthorjessnevins
    • CommentTimeJan 15th 2008
    Retrofuturism works too, I suppose.

    I think the Black Dossier has elements of psychedelica, as Leagues 1 and 2 had gaslight romance elements, but they're mainly their own thing.
  1.  (515.23)
    Of course it wasn't rebellious, it was a comedy.

    Steamboy is highly rebellious. It makes the leaders and inventors out to be completely indifferent about the lives of people, and using new tech only for war and profit.

    "empowerment of the dispossessed." - Very victorian idea that (See, Marx, Karl)
    "It was anti-materialistic" - I going to think you mean consumerism, something the Romantics rebelled against very well
    "pro-d.i.y.," - What? You mean like body/clothes modding?
    "anti-corporate culture", - Just like the 60s
    "anti-modern capitalism," - There's always been anti-capitalism since there was capitalism. This is hardly a new idea.
  2.  (515.24)
    Psychedelic samurai?
  3.  (515.25)
    "No politics in Austin Powers? No sexual politics? (she boffs that italian without a thought to stds) No drug politics? (he realises all his musical heroes are dead from overdoses). Financial politics? (A meeeeeeelion dollars ain't that much anymore)."

    If basic human observation is relativised into "political comment," then Jerry Seinfeld is the world's most popular political comedian.
      CommentAuthorPete Martin
    • CommentTimeJan 15th 2008 edited
    Hey, i didn't say it was good political comment. I still maintain it was a comedy, and not shagpunk.

    And jerry springer used to be mayor of cincinnati

    *edit* aha, you said jerry seinfield. whoops
    • CommentTimeJan 15th 2008
    I took some band photos like this once. here, here.....and here

    I'm glad this issue is finally being addressed.
    • CommentAuthorjessnevins
    • CommentTimeJan 15th 2008
    I think you and I are viewing Steamboy in quite different ways. I see a glorification of technology in that film, not a critique of it.

    ""empowerment of the dispossessed." - Very victorian idea that (See, Marx, Karl)"
    Actually, no, not "very" Victorian. Yes, there were Victorians who argued for the empowerment of the dispossessed, but the dominant ethos of the Victorian era was to blame the dispossessed for their own condition.

    ""It was anti-materialistic" - I going to think you mean consumerism, something the Romantics rebelled against very well"
    I meant both, actually.

    ""pro-d.i.y.," - What? You mean like body/clothes modding?"
    Pro-d.i.y. as a way of life, not as an approach to cosmetic stuff like clothing.

    Punk was all of these things at once. No, none of them originated with punk, but punk was an advocate for all of them.

    And what you're calling "steampunk" is not an advocate for any of them.
    • CommentTimeJan 15th 2008
    Shagpunk will rule us all.

    And it started right here.

    We've bared witness to something very important.

    Now let's water it and watch it grow.

    • CommentTimeJan 15th 2008
    (Found and signed up for Whitechapel after seeing a link in a recent badsignal email.)

    When I heard "Shagpunk" I was picturing the 'shag' Ellis mentioned in his "Fantastika" description.
    (Ie: "I write fantastika and I just shagged your wife blind")

    I was having visions of angry political sexcapades and mohawked senators in curb stomping / 'money shot' mashups.
    (Am I the only one who had such thoughts?)

    I was not expecting a discussion about carpets and furniture/fashion.

    I guess the label I'm looking for would be more:


    • CommentTimeJan 15th 2008
    you can see the shag-punk possibilities in the Dharma stations on "LOST" - look at the 70s designs of everything and there's some interesting stuff...

    @phill_sea : you are not the only one who thought "shag as in fuck" when you saw the thread title... kind of disappointed, actually.
    • CommentTimeJan 15th 2008
    Wouldn't the Venture Brothers count as Shagpunk?
    @videocrime : both the mistaken notion of shagpunk and the dull ache of disappointment hold true for me as well...
    • CommentTimeJan 15th 2008 edited
    I think this is a great idea. I can only imagine modding a computer to be shagpunked... *shivers*

    That kind of 70s aesthetic made me think of the BBC comedy show "Look Around You". Here's a sample.
    • CommentTimeJan 15th 2008
    This already seems completely confused, or possibly it's just the learning curve of this community, but is the conversation focused on the cultural context of mixing retro sixties style with modern settings and scenes like bands adopting throwback psychedelics styles, or is this question what would 'shagpunk' be as a new outgrowth/reworking of existing literary teampunk themes?

    One seems like it's already here, but maybe that's just because I've seen way too many garage bands dressed in matching suits playing surf influenced rock n' roll. Or maybe it was the guy at that New Year's Ever party who's band just sold some music to some ABC tv show and was dressed in the sort of thing I imagine Keith Moon wearing to a court appearance only in earth tones, and matching a Brian Jones cut with an awful hipster beard. He was dancing to the Dirtbombs' covering Marvin Gaye and I remember looking around for the room for something heavy to hit him with...

    I mean, given the way bands have presented themselves over the last decade, a suit and a moptop might be all someone needs to think of the sixties, but maybe that's just because I'm young and American. It seems sort of easy to point to little snippets like John Stone from Planetary or Sal Paradise from League of Extraordinary Gentlemen as little snippets of something groping it's way towards ShagPunk, even the Gideon Stargrave sequences in The Invisibles could be seen as that, but it seems more like at least the first two were just filtering the storytelling through the time period it was being set in. Venture Brothers could come off as something resembling an American take on ShagPunk, but then you might want to throw Harvey Birdman and a lot of the reworking of old characters in more modern settings that early Adult Swim embraced, even going all the way back to Space Ghost Coast-to-Coast. The question becomes at which point is it no longer modern artists simply drawing on a time period within recent memory and parodying, recycling or re-imaging something and it become a quantifiable species of culture on it's own, which brings on another question of what defines a subcultural movement and where do it's borders end.

    So you need someone smarter than me to figure that sort of thing out...

    As for the literary side of the coin, besides the above questions, you'd need to examine if the genre stands on it's own merits or if it's just another added sub-genre to the ever increasing list of -punk fictions people want to create and imagine.
    • CommentTimeJan 15th 2008
    Jessnevins, I hate to jump into your pre-existing debate and all, but you're basically trying to apply a single label to punk culture when it has neither a single label or a definable culture anymore.

    While all the things you want punk to be it has been in various medias at various times the whole of it was never about that. You're talking about anti-corporate intentions in a genre of music who's originators mostly spent their careers on huge corporate labels trying to get number one hits and not figuring out why they weren't getting radio play.

    Punk was everything you said it was to some people and something totally else to a ton of others. You can't look for a single ideology and apply it to a genre that big, it's just not possible. For ever band like Crass or... well there weren't any like Crass... maybe Propaghandi or something? Anyway, there's hundreds like the Misfits for sake of argument.
  4.  (515.36)
    I've been toying with something of that ilk, although I'd thought of it as telepunk rather than shagpunk. Basically used the spur of Manson Family members becoming a homegrown RAF to criminalize the counterculture and set the Nixon presidency as an unimpeachable junta.

    There's a lot of potential in the era, really... the late 60s and early 1970s were a huge flowering of countercultural violence (whether through Manson, Baader-Meinhof, the Weather Underground or the Panthers), technology was making huge leaps and bounds (speaking as someone who remembers TELNET) and the "shagpunk" setting offers the opportunity to play with some of the tropes that made cyberpunk powerful in the first place (technology empowering the disenfranchised, decentralization versus monolithic mass-culture, the melding of the Third World and the First) in a setting that's not overshadowed by the flashing lights and whirring noises of the New New.

    And, really, the thought of Kilgore from Apocalypse Now leading Hell's Angels into air-mobile battle's too fucking cool for its own good. Deny it at your peril.
  5.  (515.37)
    Yeah, I thought the thread title meant Fuck-Punk too, which is something I thought would be funny.

    Oh well, hopes dashed once again.
    • CommentAuthorsacredchao
    • CommentTimeJan 15th 2008
    For ever band like Crass or... well there weren't any like Crass... maybe Propaghandi or something?

    There was 3/4 of the bands on the Crass label - Rudimentary Peni, Zounds, Flux of Pink Indians, etc. But I get your point.
  6.  (515.39)
    You're talking about anti-corporate intentions in a genre of music who's originators mostly spent their careers on huge corporate labels trying to get number one hits and not figuring out why they weren't getting radio play.

    Um... not quite...
    • CommentTimeJan 15th 2008
    Not entirely, but the Ramones are a great example, the Pistols short lived career was all about dicking Warner Brothers out of money, The Clash were on CBS and actual got both radio play and good chart positions, the Stranglers struggled to achieve any real commercial success. Maybe I'm biased because punk in the USA wasn't what it was in the U.K. but there were a lot of artists struggling just to get by and trying to achieve some sort of commercial breakthrough who couldn't figure out why they weren't all getting treated like Lou Reed here. Off the top of my head Johnny Thunders, David Johansen, Iggy Pop, The Ramones... it's a pretty decent list.

    Not to come off as flip, but how many of those bands didn't share at least one or two members with Crass? I get your point as well, though.

    Doesn't it seem like the real potential in something like ShagPunk lies in the speed at which the values changed between the two decades of the sixties and the eighties rather than the tech? Granted tech change was no joke, you started the decade with the realization of atomic energy and nuclear weapons and ended it with the beginning of the personal computer age. But to me it's how quickly things exploded culturally, from acceptance of homosexuality from the Beats to free love and Disco, it would be a lot more interesting to see someone try and figure out if all our quasi-mainstream values were super-speed up to the rate they were in that time period what would happen to the current existing values? But rocket packs and hippie militants could be fun, too.