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  1.  (515.41)
    Maybe I'm biased because punk in the USA wasn't what it was in the U.K.

    I suspect so. Because when I think of punk, I think of Britain 1976-1978 approx. The Stranglers were about as punk as my mum, Iggy Pop predated punk, Johnny Thunders was a circus act and the Ramones, whom I like, were nonetheless the Beach Boys with severe head injuries.

    Not getting radio play was central to the Pistols -- or at least McLaren's -- plans, of course.
    • CommentTimeJan 15th 2008
    I think it's just different associations, which is what happens when you've got ten years on me and live on the other side of an ocean. When I think of punk I'm more likely to think of the whole crop of weird people in New York and Detroit, many of whom weren't ever going to be as big as the Pistols but had been working at it for a long time before McLaren drove the Dolls to Miami dressed in red leather and didn't figure out why people in New York thought he was creep and that he didn't get it. By the time he made it back to London with a tape copy of 'Blank Generation' trying to force Johnny to be a poster boy for something neither of them quite understood the bands I generally think of the earliest punks were already degenerating into poverty, obscurity and drug addiction. But he sure made them both famous and, eventually rich.

    Just a difference in perspective, I suppose.
  2.  (515.43)
    No Wave was actually more interesting to me... meandering now, though...!
    • CommentTimeJan 15th 2008
    I was always amazed that Australia found it's way from Radio Birdman to The Birthday Party in a decade while America and England were moving the other direction. Of course, if the meandering persists there'll be Militant Free Love Marxists with Direct Energy Weapons to Enforce the Rules.
  3.  (515.45)

    Exactly! Although I'm a little less interested in extrapolating to the modern than playing with antiquity and shagpunking it up.

    One thing to consider, though, is how much of a cultural war was in place at the time. My telepunk stuff (if it ever happens, which it won't because Jesus it's a niche thing) plays more with the Silent Majority's fear of The Kids than it does with TELSTAR or phreaking. The counterculture was seen as an actual threat... free love, Women's Lib, social justice and an acceptance that a certain amount of equality is our birthright was seen as a dangerous thing and it was treated as such in no uncertain terms. That's what interests me and that's what I'd like to riff on someday.
    • CommentTimeJan 15th 2008
    I am announcing my intention to re-lable this (potential) fashion from Shagpunk to RetroFuture.

    Because I'm just not seeing the punk and the word RETROFUTURE looks better as part of the (potential) movement.

    Sure, RetroFuture will have many DIY elements and modding of retro and vintage items but it should look like it it just rolled off a factory floor into a showroom for the masses to consume.
      CommentAuthorPete Martin
    • CommentTimeJan 15th 2008 edited
    nooooooooo, its not retrofuture. That the future seen as from the (any) past.

    Shagpunk is 60s, now, or now is 60s. Let us transpose the modern world right into the 60s, see what sticks.

    Let us imagine that Jimi Hendrix and Jim Morrison didn't die but were trapped into their own pocket dimension of never-ending drug fueled Bohemia until they took guitars and started smashing on the walls on the dimension, causing rippling effects to alter everything we know into a mash of early 21st century politics with mid 20th century artistic license which results in Morrison going on a murderous rampage until he's dropped into the sun and held prisoner by The Beach Boys and Jimi Hendrix gets shot in an alleyway by Mick Jagger.

    • CommentTimeJan 15th 2008
    Sure Pete, Retrofuture might not be a perfect fit but Shagpunk doesn't really fit with what's being discussed here either.

    In my mind it's a wireless router in a lava lamp, it's curved edges on everything, laptops modded into the moulded plastic coffee table.

    Imagine it all looks like this but it does everything we want.

    (Because honestly, these "-punk" movements are all about how something looks and little more)
    • CommentTimeJan 15th 2008 edited
    I used to go to school with this imbred that was totally down with both The Dead Kennedys and Hank Williams Jr. (Not Hank least not when I knew him)

    Spurred boots, chain collars, spikes, button-up longsleeves, handkerchiefs and a leather fedora were all staples in his dress code. I called him CowPunk. He certainly wasn't part of some kind of social movement. He just wanted pussy and beer as far as I knew.

    Also, he once asked if he could "borrow me a dollar."
    • CommentAuthorKosmopolit
    • CommentTimeJan 15th 2008
    "Shagpunk will rule us all.

    And it started right here."

    Well we've already got the obligatory ideological and definitional schisms.
    • CommentAuthorKosmopolit
    • CommentTimeJan 15th 2008
    So is Dave Gibbons' The Originals shagpunk?

    It's set in a high-tech version of the 60's but focuses on the earlier British Mods vs. Rockers scene rather than what could be called the High 60's of the British Invasion and the YIPpees.
  4.  (515.52)
    Shagpunk will always have its influences, as with any movement/revolution

    And there is no schisms. As the harbringer of shagpunk, I only oppose retrofuturism and narrow components of suffixpunk. Something like this needs nurturing and being brought into life with positive progression and the adding of ideas. Nothing grew from originality.

    All I'm Saying, is Give Shagpunk a Chance.
  5.  (515.53)

    • CommentTimeJan 15th 2008
    As late as the mid 90s, large parts of Ohio still looked like that.

    I don't think I can wear that much brown again, but I'll take the casual alcoholism, dinner parties, Danish Modern furnishings, and all that tension under the surface, but I'll skip the joyless swinging ala The Ice Storm, thanks. Some things should stay beautiful and dirty.

    I'm not sure I want to dig out the organ music just yet, but it's ready to go.
    • CommentTimeJan 15th 2008

    I'll be over here with the Aesthetics, drinking fabulous concoctions out of bio-responsive martini glasses and inventing new and interesting ways to have sex while Dave and the Shaggers try to start a revolution, darling.

    • CommentAuthorGrimnir
    • CommentTimeJan 15th 2008
    I really hate Steampunk. Not the aesthetic, mind you, but the name. Cyberpunk had that 'geeky punks in the future' thing going for it that still somehow managed to maintain some semblance of punk-ness. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for clockworks and brass everywhere and fancy suits and all that, and I like steampunk comics as much as anyone, but playing dressup and going to parties wearing goggles and a waistcoat has what exactly to do with punk?

    And Shagpunk? Really? We already still have plenty of hippies hanging around here, is that not enough of a retro 60's subculture? Oh, wait, you want to replicate the aesthetic of rich successful liberal residents of Hollywood circa 1970. Yes, how very punk of you. Those people didn't fucking listen to Iggy Pop. They listened to the fucking Capenters, man. That is NOT PUNK. If what you want to be is a rich hippie who actually has the money for shag and retro furnishings, then go for it, but don't call it punk. Punk is trashy kid sleeping on a scummy sheet on a scummy futon mattress in the back corner of an abandoned and graffiti'd warehouse and owning only a guitar and a bottle to wash down his anger at the world and the sort of things that make sense to HIM. Punk is not sipping martinis and danish modern furniture or having a $400 vintage-style outfit that you only wear to certain parties. I like the steampunk aesthetic, and I could really even get behind a 70s throwback style, but in what way are either of those styles transgressive? Where is the soul in any of that? It looks cool, and isn't that reason enough to do it? Why do you have to attach artificial edginess to it by calling it punk when it is so very clearly NOT PUNK? Sure, there's many different definitions of the word, but if you're gonna be a punk you've got to be a kid who's down-on-your-luck and sick of getting shit on. Cyberpunk doesn't bother me because even though you're diving into the future, those characters are still fundamentally punks. The same is not true of other -punk genres.

    Maybe we should have businesspunk, and we can all wear power suits and snort cocaine while listening to Huey Lewis and the fucking News. Hell, we've a fictional basis for it, American Psycho was pretty awesome, and they had all that nice furniture and everything. We can sit around talking about how to grow our stock portfolio, you know, to stick it to the man. Or wait, maybe we should have policepunk, and we can carry nightsticks and wear uniforms and utility belts and talk about terrorists and liberals colluding against America and how we beat the shit out of these black guys that were resisting arrest last night. We'd look so macho and badass in those uniforms, it'd be great! We could grow out mustaches, it'd be a hell of a fashion statement. I think I'd be especially fetching as a motorcycle cop, all black leather.

    Do you see how silly it is to call something like that -punk? It's wearing fun clothes and having cool stuff and that's reason enough to do it without trying to say it's something it's not. Shagpunk is not punk any more than my suggestions are punk, and that's the fucking truth. Call it neoshag or shagrevival or retrofuturism or whatever you want to call it, but don't call it punk. Why? Because it's the appropriating the culture of a substantially oppressed fringe group.

    But whatever, not like a forum post is gonna get people to stop calling it steampunk when there isn't a good alternative term.
      CommentAuthorJon Wake
    • CommentTimeJan 16th 2008
    Whenever I hear anything-punk it makes me think of a bunch of nerdy kids (like myself) trying to attach themselves to a hip subculture they probably want nothing to do with.

    Having a sense of aesthetic and a willingness to express it? Awesome.

    Not bathing and being addicted to heroin? Not so much.

    I still remember the Subhumans show I worked at: The lead singer does the usual anarcho-punk rant about religion, the police, blah blah blah. And in the middle of the rant, apropos nothing, he says "Animals don't bathe, and we are animals, so don't bathe." I paraphrase. But there.

    Besides, there's already a subculture that idolizes the 60's/70's styles, at least here in Portland. We call them Hipsters.
    • CommentAuthorKosmopolit
    • CommentTimeJan 16th 2008
    There seems to be a resurge in interest in the pop culture of the 1970's -stuff like blaxploitation movies and the various craze comics such as Power Man and Iron First.

    What do we call that if it becomes a "movement" punk-punk?
  6.  (515.59)
    Sorry folks - especially Grimnir - but the (term here)-Punk phrase has pretty much become the shorthand for 'cultural/temporal juxtaposition', in much the same way (term here)-Gate has become shorthand for 'political scandal'.
    (I also find it amusing how many definitions of 'punk' we're seeing here - especially the Transatlantic divide. Bear in mind we live in a world where fucking Green Day are classified as punk...)

    As for Shagpunk itself... I could see that. Hell, I grew up in the '60s, so I damn near remember it.
    The What-If aspect appeals. Steampunk's What If being, of course, What If Victorians had really neat modern-equivalent tech going on for them?
    Shagpunk's What Ifs have been nicely outlined already. I'd love to see stuff about the direct conflict of all those 60s currents. (Like Tim Leary's rumoured work for the CIA resulting in psychedelic superspies hounding Phil Dick in the Manson Family-devastated ruins of Orange County... yeah.)

    If we really, truly need a term for the sexual elements of such juxtapositions, what about Spunkpunk?
    • CommentAuthorKosmopolit
    • CommentTimeJan 16th 2008
    In trying to visualise Shagpunk, I find myself drawn to Spinrad's great political sf novel of the 1970's - Bug Jack Barron.

    It's an excellent novel while drawing almost entirely from the particular obsessions of the American counter cultural left ca. 1970.

    I'm trying to visualise a retelling of real world American politics as filtered through Spinrad's sensibility with graphic design and costuming by Sylvia Anderson et al circa UFO.

    In other words, a fucking mess.