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      CommentAuthorPete Martin
    • CommentTimeJan 16th 2008 edited
    Thank you cat vincent, for putting it so all so much better than I could.

    I like to think that -Punk has also gone the way of -rama or i- or -ati (Illuminati, literati, bloggerati, glitterati).

    Hell, it's not like "Punk" was never used like this before (Oi Punk, skate punk, ska punk, horror punk, glam punk).

    I'm finding the reaction to the word and not the concept very funny. Would it make you all feel better if it was called ShagFantastika?
    • CommentTimeJan 16th 2008
    You're in a forum full of people for whom words are tools, Pete-- of course they're going to note it when you're using a screwdriver to stir your coffee.

    That said-- are we down to poking things purely for a reaction, or is there anything left to this topic?
  1.  (515.63)

    Oh yes. I can easily imagine going up to a stranger and saying "I'm into ShagFantastika..."! Beats the Austin Powers pickup line any day.
  2.  (515.64)
    I think there lots to be said about this topic, if naming conventions could be laid a bit to rest.

    I'm imagining nanovinyl right now.
  3.  (515.65)
    Sorry to disappoint you, Pete, but one more:

    The -Punk suffix only really sticks - as in, doesn't become immediately laughable - when it's applied to something which does resonate against it. As Jess notes, Punk has certain unremovable cultural associations which you can't shift, and if you ignore, it's like you calling your movement "ShagMarxism" and then wondering why people are asking questions about Marx. While you can argue what is and is not punk forever*, but there are core things to it.

    To keep things simple, I keep it loose: If your Mum*** could possibly approve, it's not punk.


    *If I was told PHONOGRAM: RUE BRITANNIA was too obscure for a first comic, McKelvie and I were planning on doing something about exactly that - Punk. What the fuck is it anyway**
    **Which reminds me of a story a friend of mine told. Floating about 30, he's arguing with a mate in a pub about the exact nature of punk. A girl walks up, of their aquaintence, a clear decade younger. She listens for a bit, then walks away, sighing: "CHRIST! YOU SOUND LIKE MY DAD".
    ***Or if you have a particularly Liberal Mum, your old teacher.
    • CommentTimeJan 16th 2008
    Just to keep from spooking the horses it would probably be good to have a catch-all name to describe any fiction that marries anachronistic values and cultures up with futuristic technology. The punk suffix works just as well any other term, unless you're married to it as some sort of cultural touchstone from days gone by. If you can't get music fans to agree what's punk and what isn't, getting literature fans to agree on what sort of fiction is or isn't punk is just as impossible. And as stupid.

    The potential for shagpunk- I'm actually fond of Pete's 'ShagFantaskitka' name- is about the same as the potential for any other type of fiction. Only bad writers are going to write bad fiction, the concept and genre are pretty much irrelevant, other than to the tastes of the audience.

    As for what it could mean to a wider culture, it might not have the impact that steampunk has/had, but part of that's because the focal point is on a time period within living memory, and there are still people out there who haven't moved past it yet, much less are waiting for the wheel to come back around to it. Give it another ten or twenty years, who knows.
  4.  (515.67)
    punkrock conversations on this board make my head hurt. especially since its a HUUUGE part of my life (diy hc punk, not this board) and from the comments people make in regards to it, its VERY clear that people just arent exposed to the vibrant, amazing, self sufficient counter culture that is modern day wordlwide punk. i wouldnt say people are wrong, but there is a deep and very intricate culture going on right under your noses that you have to search to find. its a cliche within our ranks, but it really is just a giant network of friends. everyone helps out, book shows, makes fliers, starts bands, cooks for touring bands, work the door, get up and dance, let bands crash on yr floor, put out records, zines, etc and there is pretty much no money. if you dont absolutely love it, you will leave soon, becuase it is WORK to be involved. hangers on and fashion hipsters will not last. it is not about teenage rebellion and being an ignorant kid, it is about a viable alternative to the bullshit that is most of modern life. mall punks and hot topic are just another marketing demographic to some company, actual punk is like a beautiful secret world.

    whew, that was a bit of a pretentious rant. sorry, it had been building since i saw some kid on a different thread talking about against me! and bad religion, who may sound "punk" to the uninitiated, but have absolutely no relevance to the actual punk scene. (they both did, but chose the warp tour and $$$ over building an actual scene)
  5.  (515.68)
  6.  (515.69)
    joe.distort: brilliant post. If you want to get into this in depth elsewhere, feel free to start a thread or something and bring the knowledge.

    100 Brain Points.

    -- W
  7.  (515.70)
    thanks, though ive actually been trying to avoid discussing diy punk ethics on these and other threads because i think it comes across nitpicky and elitist to those that dont get it. plus, not many folks seem to be too interested when i do bring up stuff like this anyway.
  8.  (515.71)
    @ joe.distort

    I'd read that thread. Not because I'm punk, but because I would have a similar understanding of (and somewhat of an interest in) punk to yourself, and people who harp on about being punk when they're clearly not grinds my gears.

    One brief thing about the usage of "-punk" in the Shag/Steam sense... I think science-fiction sub-genres are the least of your worries when it comes to bastardising the term, when you've got assholes like Greenday and (Oh God, McFly...) on the loose touting it.

    Back on topic!

    Shagpunk sounds great, I love the idea of the 6 Million Dollar Man with bizarre ultraviolence and explosive laserbeams coming out of his mouth, and evil genetically engineered assassins that all look like Twiggy, and Cold War paranoia, and unwieldy jetpacks that are oft used but are still about as effective as they actually were in the 60s, and fountain pens that squirt acid (that bubbles abnormally) and everybody has an iPhone but it looks like a brown briefcase and and...

    Yeah, I want ShagPunk...
    • CommentTimeJan 16th 2008
    joe.distort, That's probably the best music/DIY culture related post I've read in ages. We can argue word usage forever, which can be fun, but there's a conversation about DIY culture/aesthetic and community involvement that could be nice to have here... in another thread.
    • CommentAuthorMacgyver
    • CommentTimeJan 16th 2008
    Seeing as the 60's and 70's seem to be being remade right now I'm all for this, as the reimaginings generally suck. While it's technically a RetroFuture thing, BSG seems to be the only one to get it right. Big clunky keys on the computers and shite screens like the old show, great stuff.

    I'd have been a lot happier with the Bionic Woman if she'd had an artificial leg and arm instead of going the nanotech route. Shagpunk to me would be chunky tech invented by scientists on LSD and made in bright coloured plastic. Green screens all over the place because no one thought to go above two colours. Muscle cars with a green screen GPS in it. Mobile phones that take flash bulbs for their cameras. Great stuff.
  9.  (515.74)
    sorry guys, i was only refuting the other things said relating to punk rock (kieron, i LOVED phonogram by the way- i think it nailed music counterculture in a way few things do to those of us that get caught up in them). in general i find the steampunk aesthetic pretty badass and the concept behind it is great. these things are awesome ideas, and should be fully explored.
  10.  (515.75)
    Thanks, Joe.

    (Re: Punk - I sympathise with you, but there's a real difference between punk as a subculture and punk as an aesthetic or inspiration or ideal or even a musical genre or whatever. Punk, as an inspiration, works across more boundaries than the people willing to commit fully to that alternate world. Conversely, I can absolutely see why anyone fully committed to it as a subculture finds themselves totally frustrated by its co-opting. And so they should.

    And now to read your thread, as I'm interested in what's going on in it.)

    • CommentTimeJan 17th 2008 edited
    @joe.distort - Nice post.
    there is a deep and very intricate culture going on right under your noses

    Reminds me of how amazed I was when I was first seriously exposed to the freetekno scene. Very much a lost cousin of hc punk from what it sounds like. I mean, I knew a bit about ye olde days of rave, Spiral Tribe, The British Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994, The M11 link road protest, and of course our local representatives here in Israel. But until a couple of years ago, I'd always thought the 'movement' (if you can call free parties a movement) died somewhere in the 90s. Then some of my friends went to Czechtek, one of the largest teknival in the world, which was packed with tens of thousands of freetekno travelers and sound systems. The Czech Republic in response brought about a 1000 riot police, water cannons, and a tank. The stories they told me, it was just amazing. People, thousands upon thousands of people, live this DIY PLUR lifestyle, and nobody even knows. It's like they're invisible. Our minds can't process their existence. A friend of mine is out there right now, somewhere in North America in a truck with a sound system, traveling.

    Back on topic for a second - would Brubaker's Deadenders count as shagpunk? Definitely got that 'punk' edge to it.
  11.  (515.77)
    thats a good call, DEADENDERS is so fucking great. if thats the aesthetic this thread is about, i support it 100%. the style and characters of that book are aces.
  12.  (515.78)
    I always find it amusing that the punks of 77 have become the thing they rebelled against. It dawned on me after watching footage of some punk anniversary exhibition that was frequented by the punks of the day who are now company exec's, suits and other assorted authority figures. new wave was far more interesting. (apologies for a slight topic diversion)
    • CommentTimeJan 19th 2008
    Will somebody write a stonepunk novel about cavemen (they were hot fifteen mins. ago) with all of modern tech at their disposal?
  13.  (515.80)
    you should read the comic MAINTENENCE, (from ONI) i think issue 2. cave men, a retarded scientist, technology is used in a ridiculous manner