Whitechapel - On History 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/ Lussumo Vanilla & Feed Publisher On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=134653#Comment_134653 2009-03-05T23:14:23-08:00 2009-03-14T06:20:58-07:00 looneynerd http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5373 So in the WC chat the past week, it seems like the conversations inevitably end up with me answering (or trying to) questions about history. So I thought I'd start a discussion up about it! Do ...
Do you have any questions about history? Want to know more about something or find out if what you know is a historical myth? Ask away! If you're wondering, I'm a grad student (working on my doctorate). I specialize in Middle Eastern (particularly Turkish-Ottoman) history, but before that I focused on Roman classical history.

So ask away! (and if you know the answer, go ahead and answer! I know a lot of you know more about a lot of subjects than me!)]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=134655#Comment_134655 2009-03-05T23:18:29-08:00 2009-03-05T23:33:44-08:00 Kosmopolit http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1346 One in your area of specialisiation We keep hearing how Sunni/shia conflict in Iraq was inevitable and was just the latest upsurge in centuries of sectarian bloodletting. My limited reading of ...
We keep hearing how Sunni/shia conflict in Iraq was inevitable and was just the latest upsurge in centuries of sectarian bloodletting.

My limited reading of Iraqi history suggests that that is largely incorrect, care to comment?

Another one: given the limited democratic reforms introduced by the Young Turks prior to world War I, is it fair to say that the Anglo-French mandates actually reversed and retarded the development of democracy in the Arab world?]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=134656#Comment_134656 2009-03-05T23:22:53-08:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 aike http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1426 Cool, thanks! I'll start on that book you recommended and get back to you, am sure I will have plenty of questions. :) (for the record so far, we have established that sifting through pottery ...
(for the record so far, we have established that sifting through pottery chips in troy is boring, nero kicked his pregnant wife to death because she said his acting sucked, but emperors having people crushed to death by rose petals is an urban legend. Oh yeah and Looneynerd got shot at by Nazis while on a dig. He refused to answer whether or not he found the grail.)]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=134659#Comment_134659 2009-03-05T23:41:02-08:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 looneynerd http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5373 Wow Kosmopolit, you go straight for the jugular! The first question is a bit complex, but I'll try to keep it simple. Sunni's are the vast majority of Muslims in the world, and inhabit all of ...
The first question is a bit complex, but I'll try to keep it simple.

Sunni's are the vast majority of Muslims in the world, and inhabit all of the Dar-al Islam in reasonably large numbers. Shi'a adherents are a small minority, inhabiting parts of Iraq and Iran (mostly). The historical Islamic empires were normally divided based on what kind of Islam the subscribed to, but most of the empires were one or the other. There was fighting, of course (the early Turkish empire fighting the Sassanids, for instance) but within empires, violence was rare because of the complete ubiquity of religious freedom in the Islamic world. Christians, Jews, Sunni's, and Shi'ites all had most of the same rights in empires from the Sassanids to the Almohads. The ruling religious party always had a few extra rights (tax exempt status, for instance), but otherwise things were fairly equal.

This became hugely true when the Ottomans took over most of the Arab world. They organized their empire into a system of semi-autonomous Millets organized around ethno-religious lines; Greek communities were governed locally by Christian Greeks and followed Christian law, while Muslim Kurd populations were governed by Islamic Kurdish law. As long as you payed your taxes, and supported the Sultan militarily, you were left pretty much alone.

This all changed with the European colonization of the mid east. The concept of a "nation" was foreign, and dividing the Middle East into nations after the worlds wars was a huge mistake; suddenly, you had dozens of religious and ethnic groups who didn't get along trying to live together, normally ruled over by a group greatly opposed to their own beliefs. So the short answer is, kind of. You can't expect groups that are used to governing themselves to be ruled by somebody that strongly opposes their own beliefs in what they see as a non-democratic manner. I'd like to point out that radical Islam is a concept that didn't really exist until the 1800s; before that, Jihads were rarely called, and only when the Qu'ran warranted it. That is to say, a Jihad bil Salif (Jihad by the Sword). In all forms of early Sha'ria, this said that you only went to holy war when Muslims were being kept from worshiping (under the crusader states, for instance).


Second question;

That's one really really really complex. In short, I'd say no. It hamstrung the Arab world economically and led to much of the hatred now directed at the west, but it's effects on democracy are a bit more murky. Obviously, with the 1923 Turkish revolution, a result of the mandates, it helped to propel democracy forward. The rest of the Arab world? not so much. Outside of Turkey, other governments, like the "New Caliphate" led by Hussein bin Ali, were trying to become more tightly-centralized governmental systems. So It's a matter of opinion really; countries like Turkey became heavily democratic, others, like Egypt, became somewhat democratic, and others, like Iran and Saudi Arabia, became dictatorships and monarchies.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=134969#Comment_134969 2009-03-06T21:11:13-08:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Kosmopolit http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1346 Can you recommend some good sources (preferably on the net) for the pre-colonial history of subsaharan Africa? The stuff I have read on the Ashanti and the Kingdom of Kongo for exaple just seems ...
The stuff I have read on the Ashanti and the Kingdom of Kongo for exaple just seems wildly at variance with the popular image of isolated tribes living in the middle of the jungle.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=134973#Comment_134973 2009-03-06T21:32:53-08:00 2009-03-06T21:38:27-08:00 looneynerd http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5373 As far as net sources, I'm not sure. But if you're affiliated with a University (student, teacher, staff, etc.) you can get some good books through a lot of Inter-library loan systems. If you're ...
As far as books, a great starting source is a texbook called "Africa in World History" by Jonathan Reynolds. It's a really nice look at Sub-Saharan African history.

There are a few places online you can find good stuff. H-World is a message board for professional historians. It has a really good search system, to the point where it's almost like an academic-quality wiki! In the meantime, I'll look for some other stuff. The Wikipedia entries on the Songhai Empire, the Ghana Empire, the Mali Empire, and the Aksumite Empire are all really good. I have several colleagues who have edited them, and I did quite a bit of the writing on the Songhai empire myself!]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=134977#Comment_134977 2009-03-06T21:50:09-08:00 2009-03-06T21:58:35-08:00 Kosmopolit http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1346 Looks like another thrilling Saturday night following Wiki links lies ahead. On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=134979#Comment_134979 2009-03-06T21:51:45-08:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 looneynerd http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5373 Remember wiki has a reference section too ;) On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=134986#Comment_134986 2009-03-06T22:16:41-08:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Kosmopolit http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1346 I found this website via a Wikipedia reference. http://xenohistorian.faithweb.com/ Any idea how good it is?
http://xenohistorian.faithweb.com/

Any idea how good it is?]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=135007#Comment_135007 2009-03-07T00:39:39-08:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Jigsy Q http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=3090 What attracted you to the Ottoman Turks in patricular? I'm interested in Turks too, but more the older, far-eastern states like the Gokturks and the Uighurs.
I'm interested in Turks too, but more the older, far-eastern states like the Gokturks and the Uighurs.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=135011#Comment_135011 2009-03-07T01:07:26-08:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 looneynerd http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5373 @Kosmopolit I have no idea. I've not heard of it. @Jigsy Q I wanted to stay away from Western Civ. I got too much of it as a kid. I visited Turkey on a Study Abroad trip one summer, and ...
I have no idea. I've not heard of it.

@Jigsy Q

I wanted to stay away from Western Civ. I got too much of it as a kid. I visited Turkey on a Study Abroad trip one summer, and fell in love with the country. It just made sense! Plus, good job opportunity; not many middle east/ central asia specialists out there, so future prospects are good. The best part? they kept great records, making the job that much easier!]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=135064#Comment_135064 2009-03-07T09:09:14-08:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Rootfireember http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1551 How many languages can you read/write? On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=135068#Comment_135068 2009-03-07T09:40:03-08:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Kosmopolit http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1346 That site's bizarre - most of it seems to be very well-written, well-researched mainstream history. Then you get to the Middle Eastern stuff and realise the author's a young Earth creationist and ... On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=135111#Comment_135111 2009-03-07T12:01:50-08:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 looneynerd http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5373 The Alphabets I can read are: Latin, Cyrillic, Devanagari (What they use to write in Sanskrit), Arabic, Ottoman Turkish, and Persian (These last three are all pretty similar). The languages I can ... Latin, Cyrillic, Devanagari (What they use to write in Sanskrit), Arabic, Ottoman Turkish, and Persian (These last three are all pretty similar).

The languages I can speak well are:
English, German, Arabic, Ottoman Turkish


I can also "get by" with modern Turkish, and I'm trying to learn more of it, but I wouldn't say I'm great at it or anything. I've also picked up key phrases in Japanese and Spanish (Spanish will be the next language I hit hard).]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=135117#Comment_135117 2009-03-07T12:13:39-08:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 neogrammarian http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2048 lol hey, I'm home on a Saturday, so I'll throw my hat into the ring as well. Premodern European specialist here (I know I know, so banal)- if you've any questions, hit me, and I'll do my best to ... On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=135135#Comment_135135 2009-03-07T13:12:45-08:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 CaratheWalton http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=3266 Wow, I'm only 1/2 way to a MA at 34- I feel like I'm waaay behind. On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=135138#Comment_135138 2009-03-07T13:20:53-08:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 neogrammarian http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2048 @ thewaltonsare- Piffle I say. You work at the speed that keeps you as healthy as possible. Advanced degrees ain't no joke. On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=135143#Comment_135143 2009-03-07T13:29:39-08:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 looneynerd http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5373 I agree. Out of my current class, we started with 15. We're down to four. It's better to take your time and not burn out! On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=135164#Comment_135164 2009-03-07T14:30:26-08:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 CaratheWalton http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=3266 I've learned that going to school while working as a teacher full time and being a mom can make me a bit insane. I can only manage one class at a time. Yay for online classes. On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=135379#Comment_135379 2009-03-08T01:45:41-08:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Jigsy Q http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=3090 Who's your favorite Sultan? On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=135472#Comment_135472 2009-03-08T10:51:14-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 outlawpoet http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=3601 Is there any fiction (books, movies, or otherwise) in English that portrays a Caliphate particularly accurately? On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=135483#Comment_135483 2009-03-08T11:47:19-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Rootfireember http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1551 Anyone know if they had leprosy in newfrance/early colonial america? On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=135491#Comment_135491 2009-03-08T12:14:03-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 aike http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1426 The earliest reference of leprosy in the US found is in 1758, in florida. (from the history of leprosy in the USA, by L.F. Badger, MD) This, however, does not mean that there weren't cases before ...
This, however, does not mean that there weren't cases before then. In fact, given the living conditions, an the import and use of slaves from areas where leprosy was known to exist, it is very likely.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=135499#Comment_135499 2009-03-08T12:31:03-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 looneynerd http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5373 @Jigsy It's pretty common, but probably Suleiman I, also known as the magnificent or the lawgiver. Some of the stuff he had built is just amazing! @Outlaw poet I'm not really sure, to be ...
It's pretty common, but probably Suleiman I, also known as the magnificent or the lawgiver. Some of the stuff he had built is just amazing!

@Outlaw poet

I'm not really sure, to be honest. "Mehmed, My Hawk" is about a rural village just before and in the wake of the 1923 Turkish uprising. It deals with the ramifications in the country from becoming an Imperial world party to a secular democracy.

@Rootfireember

Aike seems to know more about it than me. The one tidbit I do know here is that Leprosy and other diseases were at least somewhat common in the Transitory slave centers, like many of the Caribbean islands.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=135502#Comment_135502 2009-03-08T12:37:55-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 aike http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1426 Nup, don't know a thing about it, I just happened to be looking at some stuff that was marginally related, so I looked it up :) On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=135542#Comment_135542 2009-03-08T15:57:46-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Kosmopolit http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1346 A very broad question about Ottoman history: what went wrong? In 1529 at the Siege of Vienna, the Ottomans were clearly a match for any European power both technologically and terms of logistics ...
In 1529 at the Siege of Vienna, the Ottomans were clearly a match for any European power both technologically and terms of logistics and leadership.

The second siege of Vienna in 1683 sounds like a cluster fuck and from then onwards there's what looks to a layman like 200 years of more or less constant retreat.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=135573#Comment_135573 2009-03-08T17:59:36-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 looneynerd http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5373 That's a pretty debated question, but here's how i see it. Stagnation is what crippled the Ottomans. From the 1200's they had been unbeatable. The only empire in the world capable of opposing them ...
Stagnation is what crippled the Ottomans. From the 1200's they had been unbeatable. The only empire in the world capable of opposing them at the time was probably the Mongols, and they were too far away to be a threat. Therefore, after taking most of the Balkans, their military forces (namely the Janissaries, but also the Sipahis) began to stagnate. They continued to use antiquated tactics and equipment. Most of them became administrators and petty bureaucrats instead of the skilled fighting force they'd been.

They'd also lost a lot of their economic power. By the 1600's, the economic power houses were the ones making huge amounts of money from the Americas and Africa. They were losing money, but no one in power in the empire cared; they were making plenty of money by taxing their own people.

Add on to that the fact that by that time, Europe had finally caught up to the rest of the world militarily. They were finally using professional armies up to par with the Janissary and Sipahi corps, and were finally utilizing modern units like light cavalry and mounted infantry. Their armies were increasingly led by officers elected to their positions based more on merit than on class.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=135842#Comment_135842 2009-03-09T18:01:37-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Labyrinthine http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5782 I'd like to know more about Eurasian history, the Caucasus region &c. Who's historically been in charge of that at various periods and when has the ethnocultural mix changed? Also, do you know ...
Also, do you know anything about ancient history? Because what we learned in history at school pretty much went Egypt: Greece: Rome: ~MIDDLE AGES~: Western Europe In The Last Three Hundred Years: Colonization. And I'm pretty sure there were more empires around in ye olden days than those three, but I have no idea where to start.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=135853#Comment_135853 2009-03-09T18:44:49-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 looneynerd http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5373 The Caucasus were ruled for most of history by one of the major Iranian powers: The Persian Empire, The Arsacid (Parthian) empire, and what have you. They were at different times conquerd by the ...
The best place to start would be to find out about the world's major empires and cultures. I'd find out about the following, as their some of the major ones: Ancient Egypt, Hellenistic Greece, Alexandrian Empire, Roman Empire, Achaemenid Empire, The Mongol Khanates, Han (Chinese) Empire, Maurya Empire, The Hun Empire, The Seleucid Empire, The Hittite Empire, The Muslim Caliphates, etc. When reading about these, you'll hear about other great powers they were near, rivaled, or spawned, and then you can learn about them. The nice thing about history is that you can basically start anywhere, and work in any direction you'd like.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=135901#Comment_135901 2009-03-09T22:30:33-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Kosmopolit http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1346 There's a great series of maps on wikipedia showing the world at various times in history - I used to have a direct link to the whole series but can't find it currently. It reminds you of all the ...
It reminds you of all the empires that have pretty much disappeared from popular memory - the Khazars; the Gokturks; the Polish-Lithuanian Union; Pagan etc.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=135934#Comment_135934 2009-03-10T01:17:40-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 looneynerd http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5373 I'm trying to re-find a good academic site that had a good animation of the world's major empires at different times. It wasn't extensive, but it helps to put things in perspective... like that fact ... On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=135955#Comment_135955 2009-03-10T05:55:38-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Labyrinthine http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5782 Wow, that's great, thanks. I've at least heard the names of most of these somewhere, but some like Maurya are totally new to me. And I've been wondering about African stuff as well, we totally missed ...
It's very odd growing up in a country like Australia that essentially has 200 years of history controlled by one major group plus an indefinite period of "dreamtime" which we don't learn as history so much as mythology (and that very briefly) - and I assume the Aborigines pre-1800s HAD history, but they didn't write it down and after several generations of being seriously fucked with by the colonials I don't know a) how much oral history is left and b) where the hell to find it. So practically speaking we have 200 years of history. Compared to Eurasia it's really, really simple, which applies a lot to the USA as well, and I actually think that is very relevant to the way we construct things like racism and nationalism in these countries. Not that I could really articulate exactly what I mean by that, but it just seems logical that there's a particular way of looking at things when you have less history, a kind of insecurity...]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=136012#Comment_136012 2009-03-10T12:05:11-07:00 2009-03-10T12:05:54-07:00 Jigsy Q http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=3090 http://www.allempires.com/ is a good site for beginners, if you just want to look into what empires and states existed where and when. Their forums are pretty good too. On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=136015#Comment_136015 2009-03-10T12:13:09-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 looneynerd http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5373 The good thing about America is the history of Native Americans is starting to be taught more and more. A lot of highschools are now at least covering groups like the Ohio Valley Mounbuilders. ... On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=136460#Comment_136460 2009-03-12T02:21:34-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 looneynerd http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5373 Kind of goes with the topic without me having to make a new thread: Link Just goes to show, even when we think we know everything about a topic, something else pops up and totally changes our ...
Link

Just goes to show, even when we think we know everything about a topic, something else pops up and totally changes our historical understanding and narrative!]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=136470#Comment_136470 2009-03-12T02:50:29-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Kosmopolit http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1346 Looney - in that vein. A British housewife recorded the use of orange juice as a treatment for scurvy 40 years before mainstream science and 70 or 80 years before the British navy woke up to ...
A British housewife recorded the use of orange juice as a treatment for scurvy 40 years before mainstream science and 70 or 80 years before the British navy woke up to it.

And there's an article in the latest New Scientist about a Japanese doctor called Nanaoka who discovered an effective general anesthetic 40 years before the concept was independently developed in the west.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=136471#Comment_136471 2009-03-12T02:55:36-07:00 2009-03-12T02:56:43-07:00 looneynerd http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5373 Scientific history has always fascinated me. We always think we were the first ones to develop something, but it seems like someone always did it before us. Heck, if the Antikythera Mechanism works ... Antikythera Mechanism works like we think it does, it can more accurately predict certain astronomical movements than many computers.

Also, if we have any scientists around that know a lot about this stuff, I'm always interested in learning. I specialize in diplomatic and military history, so I don't know that much about tech history in general...]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=136474#Comment_136474 2009-03-12T03:04:12-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Nygaard http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=431 Oh. Oh! I'm looking at a part of the description for the Cultural Transformations project at the University of Oslo, trying to wrap my head around it. One of the talking points is materiality and ...
I'm looking at a part of the description for the Cultural Transformations project at the University of Oslo, trying to wrap my head around it. One of the talking points is materiality and aesthetics - apparently, they're interested in projects that explore the historical relationship between forms of aesthetic expression and various global culture-production-consumption complexes - how new media changes the positions of the participants in the public discourse, how the activity of sensing varies between cultures and epochs, what happens when new discourses arise to transgress old boundaries and so on. It's all very open and vague, but the whole thing intrigues me endlessly, while at the same time making me feel utterly ingorant. Naturally, I'm planning to apply :)

You sound like you've got a grip on the "meeting of powers/cultures/traditions" part of this thing. Since I don't know the languages involved, I have no chance of doing anything in your field, like, say, the Turkish "westernization" projects, but I'd be really interested in what theoretical reference works you would recommend.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=136478#Comment_136478 2009-03-12T03:20:54-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 looneynerd http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5373 Luckily, because of the emphasis on globalization within academia in most parts of the world now, a LOT of higher education institutions are turning to English. I know about half of the Universities ...
Unfortunately, at the current time (Five AM) I'm having trouble coming up with anything. For most of human history, most art for art's sake was only really available to the rich . The only art most people saw was in Churches or on statues, which were used mainly as teaching devices, not as art to be studied and appreciated. This really only started to chain in most places in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, and my studies take place mostly before that.

A few good sources that I do know of are text books. "Ideas That Changed the World : and "The World: A Global History" by Felipe Fernandez Armesto are both great sources (and I'm not just saying that because I know the guy). He's way smarter than I am, and covers everything from diplomatic to art history from a global perspective.

Because I know Turkey better than most places, I know of two great books that cover at least a little of what you're talking about. "Crescent and Star: Turkey Between Two Worlds" by Stephen Kinzer, and "The History of Turkey" are both good introductory reads that cover Turkey's difficult transition from the insular seat of the Islamic caliphate to a highly secular western power.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=136480#Comment_136480 2009-03-12T03:31:41-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Kosmopolit http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1346 "a lot of the archaeological side of things in Turkey is done by the Germans, for some reason." Probably the Schliemann link. "a lot of the archaeological side of things in Turkey is done by the Germans, for some reason."

Probably the Schliemann link.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=136482#Comment_136482 2009-03-12T03:35:25-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 PatrickBrown http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1800 No, the Germans are just like that. Most of the early scholars of Irish were German. On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=136483#Comment_136483 2009-03-12T03:36:34-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 looneynerd http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5373 I think a lot of it has to do with proximity. Having lived in both countires, I'd describe their relationship as similar to that of America and Mexico; Turks go to germany to work in low paying jobs ...
And having worked at Troy for some time, Scliemann was a terrible, terrible archaeologist, and most of the Germans at the site (mostly from University of Tübingen) are horribly ashamed to call him a fellow German archaeologist, which the team members from America and Turkey enjoy ribbing them about to no end :P]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=136496#Comment_136496 2009-03-12T04:28:43-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Kosmopolit http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1346 It's always puzzled me that he could be credited with "discovering" something that had never been lost. On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=136498#Comment_136498 2009-03-12T04:35:17-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 looneynerd http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5373 Mostly he was good at using TNT to find gold. He Blasted a 200 yard long, 50 foot deep trench directly through the middle of the hill that is the Troy Dig site. He found the gold he was looking for, ... On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=136879#Comment_136879 2009-03-13T15:14:16-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 ngebe http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4499 @Nygaard: i dont know if its waht you are looking for but you could try concepts of cleanliness by georges vigarello in which he studies how the concepts of cleanliness, health and hygiene have ... On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=137030#Comment_137030 2009-03-14T02:52:31-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Nygaard http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=431 @looneynerd, ngebe - thanks, both of you. Will check them out. On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=137790#Comment_137790 2009-03-16T13:22:00-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 looneynerd http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5373 Time has one of the biggest fails ever! Link What they don't tell you in the article? Most people involved in serious scholarship think the Dead Sea Scrolls were probably fakes.
Link

What they don't tell you in the article? Most people involved in serious scholarship think the Dead Sea Scrolls were probably fakes.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=137795#Comment_137795 2009-03-16T13:30:49-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Rootfireember http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1551 Yeah but the 'truth' isn't as interesting as a CONTROVERSY. At least according to some. Controversy sells. How long until there are books out on this? Controversy sells. How long until there are books out on this?]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=137796#Comment_137796 2009-03-16T13:33:12-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 looneynerd http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5373 Oh there are lots. Unfortunately most of them run through academic presses, so unless you specifically know about the book they're more or less impossible to find... On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=137860#Comment_137860 2009-03-16T17:34:36-07:00 2009-03-16T18:09:47-07:00 Kosmopolit http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1346 "Most people involved in serious scholarship think the Dead Sea Scrolls were probably fakes. " I never knew that. Can you expand on it a little. Are they thought to be modern fakes or ...
I never knew that. Can you expand on it a little.

Are they thought to be modern fakes or ancient works falsely attributed to the Essenes?]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=137868#Comment_137868 2009-03-16T18:08:39-07:00 2009-03-16T18:13:29-07:00 looneynerd http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5373 Well, what I was saying isn't exactly accurate. Let me expand a bit. A lot of people think that they are the orignal writings put into the bible, or written around the same time. They're not... ...
A lot of people think that they are the orignal writings put into the bible, or written around the same time. They're not... they're just the oldest ones we currently have access to. There are a few problems with them though academically. We aren't sure they were all written at the same time. Or by the same person. The only note we know about them authentic is that they corroborate later writings. The problem with this, of course, doesn't mean that they're originally what the books said.

We also can't date things that accurately, at least not things that're that old. Though we date them to the 2nd Century BCE, a skilled forger during the 3rd Century CE (when the first major ecumenical councils were taking place) could have easily created them.


The problem with documents is that they're fairly easy to forge. During the early 20th century, a scholar claimed to have found an original manuscript of one of the gospels of Mark. For the next fifty years or so biblical scholars took him on his word, and biblical scholarship was changed by what he'd found. Then in the 1980's, an intrepid historian decided to go to the monastery in Ethiopia where the man had claimed to find the document. It turns out none of the monks there knew what he was talking about; in fact, the man had never been to the monastery, or even Ethiopia. He was discredited, and biblical scholarship was radically affected.

Therefore, because of this and similar incidents, if we can't completely verify a document's authenticity, most scholars ignore them or assume that they're fakes, forgeries, or are copies from later than originally thought.

The dead sea scrolls are farther affected by two facts: Their owners won't let most people study them up close. This is soon to change, as they're in the process of opening up the archive where they're stored and making digital copies available. Further, it was found that a number of "scholars" writing about them were themselves fakes; they'd been posing as doctors and reputable scholars online to write good book reviews, academic journal entries, and such on the scrolls. Therefore, within biblical scholarship, we normally try to think of things outside the terms of the scrolls if at all possible.

That's not to say that within the next few years our technology or understanding may improve, and it turn out that they're completely genuine. And not everyone agrees with my sentiments. I'm just speaking from my experience dealing with historians involved with MESA.


GIANT EDIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

After consulting with a friend who works more closely in this field (Ecumenical Byzantine Research), it appears that this opinion has changed in they years since I studied the subject. My apologies for putting my foot in my ass then my mouth.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=137880#Comment_137880 2009-03-16T18:58:51-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Tanuki http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5293 That is not a problem when you continue to edumacate us so well. I take it that all the problems mentioned are still valid, it's just that the majority belief is the scroll are valid. I've read ...
I take it that all the problems mentioned are still valid, it's just that the majority belief is the scroll are valid.

I've read there was going to be wider access to the scrolls, do you know much about the timetable? I haven't heard much about the owners, have they restricted access on grounds of damage to them or is it more of like the fear of defamatory scholarship or religious grounds?]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=137884#Comment_137884 2009-03-16T19:08:22-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 looneynerd http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5373 The restricted access is nominally so that religious fanatics won't get their hands on them. I'm guessing all of the problems that you stated are issues as well, though. As of right now, High res ...
As of right now, High res pics the scrolls are available as digital copies through scholarly networks (Like h-world and jStor). They've been working on getting them up online for public view for free, but I dunno where the progress on that is. As of now, you can buy the same copies that academics use on disk or book for a small fee through a few university presses. Not of the scrolls include biblical passages, and these can be viewed through different downloadable software applications that I'm sure you can find via google.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=137974#Comment_137974 2009-03-17T03:30:19-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Nygaard http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=431 re: scrolls - vague recollection says some kind of committee sat on about 50% of the scroll material for decades, and that they've either recently lost their grip or is beginning to? I really want ...
I really want to get hold of Vigarello now; so much that I'd be willing to brush up my french to read the only copies of his work available here. What stopped me was having to order the books from the other side of the country. Amazon shopping binge looms on the horizon again. I did manage to troll up Armestos "So you think you are human". Looking very interesting, if barely relevant so far :)]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=138000#Comment_138000 2009-03-17T08:17:24-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Rootfireember http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1551 When they had a thing on the scrolls in chicago, I went to see it, and they were doing some restoration on-site. Beyond the fact that the writing on the scrolls makes my eyeballs bleed for it s ... On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=138052#Comment_138052 2009-03-17T11:22:10-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 looneynerd http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5373 @Rootfire Absoloutely nothing. The best restorers also happen to make the best forgers, much in the same way that the best engravers make the best counterfeiters. Normally, this is why Historians ...
Absoloutely nothing. The best restorers also happen to make the best forgers, much in the same way that the best engravers make the best counterfeiters. Normally, this is why Historians tend to like to have impartial people working on a subject; if you don't belong to a certain religion, country, organization, etc., you're more likely to analyze it objectively.

In my above example, the reason that no one within the community questioned the Historian about the discovered gospel was because he was really good at tricking people. He first forged the document, using all of his linguistic and archaeological skills (Linguists are scary people, don't let people tell you otherwise). Then he did something REALLY smart; he took a picture of it, and claimed that the monks wouldn't allow the original document to leave the monastery (for understanable reasons. We very rarely get to keep the documents we find, so pictures normally suffice within the community). Therefore, no way of dating it beyond how it looked was possible.

The Advantage to the scrolls is that most art restorers aren't linguists. Therefore, even though they might be repairing letters and the document itself, I doubt they have the knowhow to accurately add information and make it look real. Even though I know classical Arabic, I don't know enough about common writing trends, grammar rules, spellings, etc. used during any given timeframe, but you can bet that any historian concentrating on the Arabian Penninsula in the 3rd century will, and would catch my attempted forgery in a heartbeat.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=138106#Comment_138106 2009-03-17T13:12:44-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Thom B. http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2248 Animated Maps were mentioned earlier. I found this one http://www.mapsofwar.com/images/EMPIRE17.swf form the site Maps of War I'd be interested to know if anyone feels the site has any obvious ... I found this one http://www.mapsofwar.com/images/EMPIRE17.swf
form the site Maps of War

I'd be interested to know if anyone feels the site has any obvious bias. It claims not to but the title and layout makes my gut say otherwise.
The animated maps themselves are pretty but I have no idea if they're accurate.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=138110#Comment_138110 2009-03-17T13:30:01-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Thom B. http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2248 also on the animated maps Time Map Time Map]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=138112#Comment_138112 2009-03-17T13:36:34-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 looneynerd http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5373 A few problems with the middle eastern one. It simply lists "The Caliphate". I assume it's talking about the combined extent of the Umayyad and Abbassid empires, but I'm not sure. It ...
It simply lists "The Caliphate". I assume it's talking about the combined extent of the Umayyad and Abbassid empires, but I'm not sure.

It lists "the Mongols" as one empire, when in fact it was many, such as the Eastern Khanate and the il-Khanid empire. The Il-Khans ruled much more of the middle east than the map shows (including all of Modern Day Iraq).

It also fails to mention any of the Mahgreb sultanates, such as the Almohads or Almoravids.

Also, it fails to mention any of the other Middle-East powers, such as Yemen, the Kingdom of the Hijaz, etc.

And the Crusader section is a bit misleading. In truth, the Crusader states had very little control outside of the cities that they ruled.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=138280#Comment_138280 2009-03-17T20:02:27-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Jigsy Q http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=3090 A lot of maps will just group all the Mongol empire territories under one blob, but yeah they were actually four states- the Ilkhanate in the middle east, the Golden Horde in Russia, the Chagatai ... On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=138282#Comment_138282 2009-03-17T20:05:23-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 looneynerd http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5373 @Jigsy Was the Chagatai Khanate the same thing as the "white horde"?
Was the Chagatai Khanate the same thing as the "white horde"?]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=138300#Comment_138300 2009-03-17T20:57:45-07:00 2009-03-17T21:04:33-07:00 Jigsy Q http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=3090 No. The White Horde was the eastern portion of the Golden horde. I think it encompassed modern kazakhstan. It did border the Chagatai Khanate though, and Chagatai means "the white", so it's ... On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=138377#Comment_138377 2009-03-18T02:53:59-07:00 2009-03-18T02:55:20-07:00 Kosmopolit http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1346 "The animated maps themselves are pretty but I have no idea if they're accurate. " The "history of Religion" seems to have some fairly major flaws in the Asian section - like ...
The "history of Religion" seems to have some fairly major flaws in the Asian section - like showing South East Asia as converting to Buddhism relatively late; showing the Phillipines as Buddhist in the pre-Christian era; Missing the period of Buddhist dominance in India and showing Islam as covering the whole of the territory of the current Republic of Indonesia including Hindu-majority Bali and the christian-majority areas of the Molluccas and Papua. I think the average shintoist would also have a problem with Japan being simply labelled "Buddhist". Ditto for Daoists in China.

Similarly I'd have to say that omitting the United Provinces of the Netherlands from the history of democracy is a pretty major oversight.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=138380#Comment_138380 2009-03-18T03:32:18-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Kosmopolit http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1346 I'm having trouble runnign the maps from Timemap but they look a lot more accurate than the "Maps of War" ones. On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=138453#Comment_138453 2009-03-18T09:13:02-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 looneynerd http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5373 Timemap? On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=138466#Comment_138466 2009-03-18T10:42:08-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Rootfireember http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1551 To Looney and the rest of the historians among us: 1)What in particular drew you folks to the field? What inspires you to keep researching and doing the work you do? 2) What're among the most ... To Looney and the rest of the historians among us:
1)What in particular drew you folks to the field? What inspires you to keep researching and doing the work you do?
2) What're among the most interesting obscure historical trivia you know?]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=138517#Comment_138517 2009-03-18T13:58:47-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 looneynerd http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5373 1: Well I always liked history. Growing up in Germany, my mom always made sure to take me to the different museums and historical sites around the country. It was always my best subject in high ...
2: Well a pro-historian's opinion of "interesting historical trivia" would bore the crap out of most people. Stuff like historiographical theory as it applies to linguistic movements revolving around religious diasporas. I know a few that might interest people though.

-Von Blucher, commander of Prussian forces at the battle of Waterloo was senile and was struck insane after falling from his horse. He insisted on leading the Prussian Blacks' charge into the French lines because he was under the impression that he was pregnant... with an elephant... and one of the French Infantrymen was the one who had done it to him.

-The Lycians were the first democrats. The Greeks were mostly brutal monarchies.

-The Greeks got most of their ideas (including political, philosophical, and religious) from the Egyptians. This fact was later glossed over during the colonial period, because the Egyptians were black.

-The earliest known permenantly inhabited settlement is Catalhoyuk, Turkey.

-The first trans-continental human flight took place in 1638 in Constantinople (now Istanbul). A man flew a primitive hand glider from Galata tower on the European side of the Bosphorous to the Asian side. He was then exiled from the Ottoman empire by the Sultan, who feared the man would figure out how to militarize his flyer and take over the Sultanate.

-Most gold found in Europe, even today, comes originally from Africa. Charlemagne's kingdom, as well as the Roman empire, were funded with gold from African Empires. At it's height, the Kingdom of Songhai had enough gold to purchase all of the land in Western Europe (Including modern day Italy, France, Spain, Germany, and the UK).

-Napoleon wasn't very short. He was average height for the time. He is always pictured with his Imperial guards, who had a required height of at least 6'1, abnormally tall for the time.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=138518#Comment_138518 2009-03-18T14:01:00-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Jigsy Q http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=3090 Ohh my favorite bit of trivia involves this portrait: It's the official court poirtrait of Genghis Khan. Even though it was painted by a Chinese artist decades after Genghis' death it's ...


It's the official court poirtrait of Genghis Khan. Even though it was painted by a Chinese artist decades after Genghis' death it's probably the most accurate image of Genghis in existence because (supposedly) when Khubilai Khan commissioned the portrait he brought in several old generals who served under Genghis to supervise the artist and ensure a proper likeness.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=138537#Comment_138537 2009-03-18T16:11:48-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Kosmopolit http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1346 Timemap - the site linked to by Thom at 58 above. http://www.timemap.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=124&Itemid=147
http://www.timemap.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=124&Itemid=147]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=138539#Comment_138539 2009-03-18T16:16:17-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Kosmopolit http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1346 "The Lycians were the first democrats. The Greeks were mostly brutal monarchies. " There were also democratic city-states in India. when Alexander the Great invaded India, far from ...
There were also democratic city-states in India. when Alexander the Great invaded India, far from spreading Greek ideas of democracy, he crushed several of the native Indian democracies and replaced them with a monarchy under one of his generals.

That story about the first human flight between continents ties in nicely with my earlier question about why the Ottomans fell behind the European states in science and technology. When you're on top you have more to lose from disruptive technologies.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=138544#Comment_138544 2009-03-18T16:20:47-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 looneynerd http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5373 Yeah. The ottomans almost fell because of the power the Janissaries (the professional musket-wielding infantry of the empire) became too powerful. It took the Sipahis, traditional horse archers ... On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=138585#Comment_138585 2009-03-18T18:04:50-07:00 2009-03-18T18:06:12-07:00 Jess http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1922 "Stuff like historiographical theory as it applies to linguistic movements revolving around religious diasporas." Part of me wants to ask if that's a reference to Gabrielle Spiegel's AHA ...
Part of me wants to ask if that's a reference to Gabrielle Spiegel's AHA address. The other part of me doesn't really want to know, in case I actually did recognize what you're talking about.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=138593#Comment_138593 2009-03-18T18:43:07-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Brendan McGinley http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=93 Aristotle cites the Phoenicians as having the first constitution. Though they were by and large an oligarchy, Carthage was a Republic well before Rome. Gods, I love Carthage.
Gods, I love Carthage.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=138598#Comment_138598 2009-03-18T19:13:53-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 looneynerd http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5373 @Jess It's actually what I'm doing my thesis on before I move out of coursework... lol @Brendan That we've found, the oldest constitution on the planet is from the Hittites. Earlier or ...
It's actually what I'm doing my thesis on before I move out of coursework... lol

@Brendan

That we've found, the oldest constitution on the planet is from the Hittites. Earlier or contemporary groups had codified sets of laws (Hammurabi's code), but theirs was somewhat close to a modern constitution. And I agree. Carthage is completely kickass. one of these days I'm going to get me a visa to Tunisia, just you watch...]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=138599#Comment_138599 2009-03-18T19:25:29-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Jess http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1922 You have to do a thesis before finishing course work? Are you in a joint MA/PhD program? You might want to look at Gabrielle Spiegel's AHA address, then. Unless by "linguistic movements" ...
You might want to look at Gabrielle Spiegel's AHA address, then. Unless by "linguistic movements" you mean something other than the linguistic turn.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=138603#Comment_138603 2009-03-18T19:37:34-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 looneynerd http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5373 Sort of. I'm finishing my MA at my undergrad university then transferring to Chicago for my Ph.D program. It's... kind of a complicated situation. Basically, it's an analysis of the study of ...

Basically, it's an analysis of the study of linguistics that revolve around the movement of central religious movements. Like the spread of classical Arabic with the rise of conservative Sufi Tariqs in the Ottoman empire.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=138613#Comment_138613 2009-03-18T20:11:24-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Jess http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1922 Chicago has a decent PhD program in history. Good luck with that. :) I'm an early modernist myself, and history PhD programs are almost always complicated situations. No need to explain! On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=138616#Comment_138616 2009-03-18T20:23:14-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 looneynerd http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5373 Chicago and Penn happen to be the two best in my field. Penn is normally considered the top, but I have a bunch of personal reasons for not wanting to go there, so Chicago is the best option for ... On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=138618#Comment_138618 2009-03-18T20:26:25-07:00 2009-03-18T20:27:19-07:00 Jess http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1922 Early America, Early Modern Europe, Women & Gender, Science -- some strange combination of all of that. Penn's a lovely program. I've been there to visit the McNeil center and had good ... On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=138953#Comment_138953 2009-03-20T03:55:52-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Scrymgeour http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4141 @looneynerd, im not so sure about the comment you made re: diffusion of democracy from Egypt. The developement of Egyptian Civilisation was my forte at university and i dont think anything they did ... I think its more likely that democracy independently eveolved and converged (like flight) in a variety of places, notably Athens after the Alkmeonids.
Interestingly though, democracy would have been prevalent in most pre-urban societies, quite possibly even in Catalhoyuk. (although i guess its more like true anarchy, no actual leaders etc.)
Same in Egypt, but it was far earlier than the memory of even the greeks. something like 4000bc]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=139048#Comment_139048 2009-03-20T09:38:28-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Kosmopolit http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1346 Just to follow up on earlier discussions about the fact that various people donit even register on the popular western outline of history, it's a shame that this guy doesn't get a mention: link
TYewodoros II

link]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=139125#Comment_139125 2009-03-20T12:22:25-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 looneynerd http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5373 @Kosmo Yeah. Africa gets a bad wrap from most historians (not counting, of course, Egypt and North Africa). If it's not being attacked or insulted, it's being ignored. @ Scrymgeour The way ...
Yeah. Africa gets a bad wrap from most historians (not counting, of course, Egypt and North Africa). If it's not being attacked or insulted, it's being ignored.

@ Scrymgeour

The way I understand it, the philosophy, if not the practice, of democracy came from Egypt to Greece. I'll try to run down my sources, because frankly, Egypt is not really my strong point.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=139267#Comment_139267 2009-03-20T23:32:18-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Kosmopolit http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1346 I just like the idea of a King holding court surrounded by lions. On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=139278#Comment_139278 2009-03-21T00:04:26-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 fatesaccomplice http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5955 I'm Irish, mostly, so i have this burning question. How the goddamn living fuck did the the Irish suffer so bad from a potato famine when they were surrounded by water? Did no one have a fishing pole? On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=139285#Comment_139285 2009-03-21T00:22:22-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 looneynerd http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5373 Ooh, a good question. There are a number of generally accepted reasons. -Many religious Irish thought that the famine was their fate for sins they had committed. Many just accepted their fate ...
-Many religious Irish thought that the famine was their fate for sins they had committed. Many just accepted their fate instead of fighting it.

-They were averse to trying new food sources. This isn't a trait singular to the Irish; the early American colonists (Pilgrims) nearly starved their first year here, despite the fact that New England has one of the most abundant fish populations in the world, and at the time it's beaches were covered in shellfish.

-They were too poor to afford fishing vessels or equipment. Pole fishing from the shore isn't dependable, and certainly doesn't yield enough food to feed a significant part of the population. You need netting from boats to produce enough food for a population, and no Irish at the time could afford these vessels. The Irish fishing industry had been wiped out by British competitors in the years leading up to the famine.

-The Potato had worked for generations; people truly believed that the famine would end the next year, and thought they could hold out.

-A few Irish aristocrats and a great many absentee land lords owned most of the land. Ireland was actually exporting a great deal of food during the famine, to pay taxes. If exportation had not been a factor, there would have been more than enough food to eat. Many thought that the land owners would relent and start giving or offering food. A few did; they created work projects and paid the Irish in food (just enough to keep them alive and working). Many thought that all land owners would adopt similar policies, which never happened.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=139295#Comment_139295 2009-03-21T02:33:16-07:00 2009-03-21T02:33:31-07:00 Kosmopolit http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1346 To follow on from that last point I suspect lots of streams and rivers would have had restrictions on fishing to protect the sport fishing for the nobles. On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=139309#Comment_139309 2009-03-21T04:47:08-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Nygaard http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=431 I find the third theory a bit hard to believe - though I don't know how rich the fishing is around Ireland, it doesn't take anything really expensive to get a simple boat, lines and nets, and pots ...
Vaguely related - a historical theory I recently learned; apparently, someone's claiming that salt water fish wasn't in the medieval diet. The practice was (re)imported fairly late from scandinavia, where open sea fishing has been a survival necessity since the stone age. I just remember a short essay about it (by a really amazing popularizer called Frans-Arne Stylegar, I think.); I'd love to know some of the details of the sources. Archaeology, I'd imagine?]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=139313#Comment_139313 2009-03-21T05:40:45-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Kosmopolit http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1346 "I don't know how rich the fishing is around Ireland, it doesn't take anything really expensive to get a simple boat, lines and nets, and pots for shellfish." We're talking about people ...
We're talking about people here who were too poor to afford FOOD.

And while most of Ireland is relatively close to the sea, how far can people travel in a day on foot?]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=139320#Comment_139320 2009-03-21T06:53:46-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 neogrammarian http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2048 @Nygaard- depends on where and what parts of the Middle Ages. The medieval English weren't big salt water fishermen. It was dangerous, and they (mostly) let other people do that. (Consider the ...
The medieval English weren't big salt water fishermen. It was dangerous, and they (mostly) let other people do that. (Consider the thriving trade w/Iceland for salt water fish out of fifteenth-century Bristol. This is undoubtedly how the crew who set out -west- from Bristol in 1452 heard that there was land out that way).

I've often suspected that the medieval English might've been more daring in sea-fishing had it not been for their plentiful rivers, and eventually extensive stew (fishpond) practices.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=139371#Comment_139371 2009-03-21T10:26:43-07:00 2009-03-21T10:34:26-07:00 BrianMowrey http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1709 There were simply too many mouths to feed on meat. With a population of eight million in 1841, Ireland was far more densely populated than most places, and this was because despite poverty and ...
From Keneally's The Great Shame:
Coastal people in the west dealt with hunger by catching fish, winkles and mussels. They gathered seaweeds named crother and dulaman, the second of which was not edible until after the first frosts of winter and caused diarrhoea. In Mayo, seabirds were hunted. Men were lowered over cliffs by rope and stole eggs, fighting off large ferocious mother birds. A wicklow farmer saw groups of men cornering cattle, to cut a vein in the neck of a beast and pour off a few pints of blood into a jar. They would repair the incision with a pin and a swatch of hair cut from the animal's tail. The blood would then be salted and fried in pan. People fought over the blackberries before they had ripened. When the fish in the Ow River in Wicklow had all been caught, people ate the pencil-thick worms from the bottom of the stream.
]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=139405#Comment_139405 2009-03-21T11:53:48-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 looneynerd http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5373 It's a bit hard to fish from the ocean without boats. Most places I've been in the world, you can't really catch anything on the immediate coast; you at least need a reasonably long pier or bridge ...
In fact, I think one reason for the mass immigrations wasn't just for the famine; the Irish were sick of dealing with the British, scik of starving, etc.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=139488#Comment_139488 2009-03-21T17:08:23-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Kosmopolit http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1346 A quick layman's runthrough of the backgroudn to the famine. Brian's obviously studied this in detail and can correct me if I go to far astray. The English had ruled Ireland since the 14th ...
The English had ruled Ireland since the 14th century. Things went along relatively peacably until the Protestant Reformation when the English became Protestant for the most part the Irish remained Catholic for the most part and Ireland was used as a base for a series of attempts by the French and other Catholic powers to restore the Catholic Stuart dynasty - attempts which were suppressed savagely.

Catholics in Ireland became effective second class citizens - until the 1790's they couldn't own land until 1829 they couldn't vote and even then the electoral system meant only a small proportion of the Irish Catholic population got to vote.

Virtually all the arable land was owned by English absentee landlords, some of whom literally never set foot on Ireland in their entire life. These estates were run by agents who paid a fixed rent to the landowners and got to squeeze as much as possible out of the tenants. The land lease system said that tenants could be evicted at any time and that any improvements on the land (like say a house) passed to the land owner without the need to compensate the former tenant.

So you had a system where there were effectively no incentives to invest or work harder. Make more money, the land agent increases your rent, improve the property and the land agent evicts you and gets the benefits of your labor.

Under these conditions it was next to impossible to make a living off a small holding. The men worked on the land farmed by the agents on behalf of the land owners and tended their own patches on the side. Outside paid work and growing as much food as possible on your leased land were both essential just to make a m nimal living.

The crofters main staple was potatoes supplemented by dairy products, wheat and the occasional bit of meat or vegetables bought with the proceeds of paid work. Crofters who had a surplus of potatoes sold them and potaioes were dirt cheap making them the principal food of the Irish working class in the cities.

When the potato harvest fell by 2/3s or more for several years running, the crofter's surplus of potatoes disappeared and the price of food in the cities skyrocketed. At the same time, the crofters became even more dependent on outside paid work - and the increased labor supply meant wages declined further.

It's worth noting that large parts of Scotland, Germany and Scandinavia were as dependent on the potato as Ireland and also suffered crop failures. These countries mostly avoided actual famine and that's probably due to the different economic and legal systems at work in those countries.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=139492#Comment_139492 2009-03-21T17:15:11-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 looneynerd http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5373 I AM wondering something, actually. I know most of the Irish couldn't afford to even own any land, or a boat, or even to buy food. How did so many end up being able to afford tickets to America and ... On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=139496#Comment_139496 2009-03-21T17:22:00-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Kosmopolit http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1346 A lot of them took indentures meaning in exchange for their fares they had to work as bonded labor for 7-10 years when they got to their destination. On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=139498#Comment_139498 2009-03-21T17:23:49-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 looneynerd http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5373 Ah. Okay. That makes sense. On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=139518#Comment_139518 2009-03-21T18:00:37-07:00 2009-03-21T18:01:41-07:00 BrianMowrey http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1709 It's still kind of puzzling, and my book (which is the sole extent of my resource on the subject of Ireland, aside from that Barley movie) doesn't really hit that issue square. It mentions, to add to ... On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=143152#Comment_143152 2009-04-02T21:51:57-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 fatesaccomplice http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5955 Lots of interesting information and logical reasons. Interesting to see Malthus come up. Was that guy real nasty, or just misused. I mean misused in the sense of racial purity idiots using Darwin as ... On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=143451#Comment_143451 2009-04-04T10:48:36-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 warrenellis http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2 Malthus... worth reading about. Influential. Not a complete dick. Big holes in his thinking. On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=144074#Comment_144074 2009-04-07T00:49:58-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Nygaard http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=431 He pulled the doubled/exponential thing out of his ass (or rather, out of a standard math textbook, because it sounded good), but the basic principle stands - population grows faster than the food ... On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=144113#Comment_144113 2009-04-07T05:53:31-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 looneynerd http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5373 Actually, I don't think population expands faster than food supply at all. While humans were hunter-gatherers, there was almost always a surplus food supply. In fact, a surplus food supply allows ...
While humans were hunter-gatherers, there was almost always a surplus food supply. In fact, a surplus food supply allows for faster technological advancement; when surpluses are large, humans develop more quickly as a result of not having to worry so much about food. Look at the countries today that are the leaders in technological development; all of them are countries that either create (the U.S.) or import (Japan) way more than enough food. The U.S., for instance, is only producing something like 40% of the food we could, and there's still way more than enough to go around.

On macro-population levels, at least, there have almost always been surpluses, with a few obvious exceptions like major famines. Even major famines, like the potato famine discussed above, rarely last more than 10 to twenty years, and certainly not more than a generation, and are normally interspersed with long stretches of food surplus.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=144115#Comment_144115 2009-04-07T06:41:15-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Nygaard http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=431 My guess is that the population growth was outrunning the growth in food supply in the 19th century; Malthus did the characteristic thing for that era, and assumed that this local observation was ...
Still, we're left with a few facts which he did draw attention to. Most species have the potential to produce more offspring than their unmodified environment can sustain, because that's what evolution rewards. A single cod squeezes out millions of eggs; if all of those larvae could grow up to be cods, the sea wouldn't have any room left for the water by now. The human species has changed the game by modifying its environment. We have made it our evolutionary niche to increase the maximum population our environment can support. We continue to do so today - but sooner or later we will either hit an absolute limit, or the rate at which our population expands will overtake the rate at which we can increase the capacity of our life support systems. I'm sure we could dig up some examples of local, small-scale versions of such endgame events, both in evolutionary and human-scale history. Either event can mean disaster.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=144128#Comment_144128 2009-04-07T08:20:37-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Labyrinthine http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5782 I think evolution also sort of works the other way round - most animals have the capacity to produce more children than the environment can sustain BECAUSE the environment is going to kill a certain ... On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=155101#Comment_155101 2009-05-15T15:50:23-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Kosmopolit http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1346 Warren's Apparat historical novella thread reminded me of something. Years and years ago I heard mention in an Asian history class of the Kuala Lumpur Mutiny during World War II -which was ...
Years and years ago I heard mention in an Asian history class of the Kuala Lumpur Mutiny during World War II -which was apparently a major uprising by Japanese troops against the Japanese government.

I've tried looking in the obvious online sources for more information about this but have zero info. In fact I'm starting to wonder if my lecturer was bullshitting. Can the professional historians here help me out?]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=155108#Comment_155108 2009-05-15T15:59:59-07:00 2009-05-15T16:07:45-07:00 looneynerd http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5373 @Kosmo I have to confess, I don't think I've ever heard anything about this. I know the garrison commander of Japanese forces at Kuala Lumpur surrendered immediately after the American Atomic ...
I have to confess, I don't think I've ever heard anything about this. I know the garrison commander of Japanese forces at Kuala Lumpur surrendered immediately after the American Atomic bombings, but before most of the Japanese military and government at large. Is this perhaps what he was talking about?

I asked around (quickly) to some colleagues working on Second World War history. None of them have heard of the incident in question, but I'm not saying it didn't happen. Some of the Imperial Japanese Military's worst war crimes were perpetrated in Singapore and Malaysia, so imagining Japanese soldiers going against orders isn't too far-fetched. The only "incident" they knew of (off the top of their heads) was the execution of looters in occupied areas in the region by General Tomoyuki Yamashita. Upon discovering that his men had caused havoc at local hospitals and were now looting, he had them all rounded up and publicly shot.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=155110#Comment_155110 2009-05-15T16:02:13-07:00 2009-05-15T16:06:09-07:00 Kosmopolit http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1346 I got the impression it was a lot earlier in the war than that. On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=155112#Comment_155112 2009-05-15T16:11:41-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 looneynerd http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5373 The Japanese didn't gain a foothold on the city until '43. The soldiers had good lives, except for food rationing caused by the collapse of the local economy after the invasion. They were also led by ... On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=155115#Comment_155115 2009-05-15T16:26:30-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Jess http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1922 I can ask someone who would know better than I, but it's possible that you're mis-remembering some information. Could you be thinking of the Malaysian People's Anti-Japanese Army (MPAJA)? On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=155120#Comment_155120 2009-05-15T16:40:55-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Kosmopolit http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1346 Part of the specific information I was given was that some of the surviving mutineers joined up with the MPAJA and continued to fight with them after the end of the war when they became the MCP so ... On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=159943#Comment_159943 2009-05-30T17:21:57-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Kosmopolit http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1346 Not sure how the historians here feel about alternate history but personally I really enjoyed this site. this site.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=159955#Comment_159955 2009-05-30T17:55:41-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 looneynerd http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5373 I appreciate AH, if it's done well. Alternative History authors have a tendency to look a lot into the Great Man theory, but I tend to forgive it in the case of good authors (like Turtledove). I'm on ... On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=159981#Comment_159981 2009-05-30T20:09:49-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 V http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=765 I just have just discovered and read this entire thread. Thank-you so much to everyone participating in it! It has been a wonderful engaging intelligent delightful read. The Irish famine ... Thank-you so much to everyone participating in it!
It has been a wonderful engaging intelligent delightful read.

The Irish famine discussion reminds me very much of the artificially created famine in Ukraine, the Holodomor.
Many people (including my ancestors) escaped to Canada and elsewhere at that time. Millions died.
Anyhow, I'm not a historian so I don't have much to contribute to this (but I am LOVING reading through this thread); this was merely what I (unsurprisingly considering my heritage) kept thinking of as I read through the details of the potato famine.

Yay! Thanks again. I love you guys and your smartypantsery. :)]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=159994#Comment_159994 2009-05-30T20:48:05-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 looneynerd http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5373 Next week I start work on what should be my first major published work! It'll be one of those things that most pro historians read, but no one else has heard of. It will be a concise historiography ... On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=161424#Comment_161424 2009-06-04T16:24:12-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Jess http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1922 Are you contracted to write a historiographic essay, LN? I'm working on pitching a conference paper (perhaps panel...who knows?) at the moment.
I'm working on pitching a conference paper (perhaps panel...who knows?) at the moment.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=161425#Comment_161425 2009-06-04T16:30:33-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 looneynerd http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5373 While writing the book, I hope to do a few articles on the topic. If I like them, they'll be submitted either to the Midwestern Middle Eastern Studies Journal, or the Middle Eastern Studies Journal ...
Which conference?]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=161426#Comment_161426 2009-06-04T16:37:46-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Jess http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1922 SHARP/SHEAR for 2010. Not entirely sure what my chances are of getting accepted, but the CFPs are out. I'd like to give a paper a dry run at a conference before I submit to a journal. A book, ...
A book, huh? I'm impressed. Dissertation work?]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=161504#Comment_161504 2009-06-04T21:29:46-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Labyrinthine http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5782 Cripes, V, I can't believe I've never heard about either the Holodomor or the Census thing. My dad's family has lived in Ukraine forever, I'm going to have to ask them about it. (My mum's family're ... On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=161719#Comment_161719 2009-06-05T08:40:26-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Winther http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2913 Here in the kingdom of xenophobic cartoons, the debate about the monarchy is raging. Once again. Specifically, whether we want one at all. Which led me to wonder, has any monarchy ever been ... On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=161730#Comment_161730 2009-06-05T09:07:21-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Brendan McGinley http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=93 Maybe Cincinnatus, if that counts. On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=177760#Comment_177760 2009-07-27T18:02:52-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Kosmopolit http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1346 Let's see: our general topic today is "Why is the Middle East So Fucked?". The immediate subtopic at hand is "What was the impact of the Mongol invasion". Personally, I think ...
Personally, I think people tend to overthink the reasons why Arab science and scholarship declined after the Mongol invasion, pointing to things like anti-intellectual trends in Islamic thought. This I think tends ot overlook the largest and most obvious impact - Arab scholarship declined because most Arab scholars died in the Sack of Baghdad and msot of the great libraries and universities of the arab world were destroyed during the Sack.

Most people in the west today don't seem to understand that Baghdad was probably the largest city in the entire world and the centre of the most powerful and technologically advanced state outside of China.

It's destruction was probably greater in impact in the region than the sack of Rome in European history. (For one thing, Rome had been declining in power for centuries and money and power had been filtering out to other centres. Baghdad fell virtually overnight to an enemy originating thousands of miles away that had been almost completely unknown ten years before.)]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=177762#Comment_177762 2009-07-27T18:11:34-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 looneynerd http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5373 So to take up the Mongol discussion being had in the politics thread... Firstly, when people think "Mongols" they think of a United Horde, which, especially starting in the 1250s and ...
Firstly, when people think "Mongols" they think of a United Horde, which, especially starting in the 1250s and 60's ceased to be the case as the different Hordes and Khans assimilated local cultures. When Baghdad was sacked, most of the Mongol army doing it wasn't actually Mongolian; it was made up of Turkic tribesman, Persians, Kurds, and dozens of other groups and factions. By 1270's, the Mongols that had taken Baghdad were known as the Il-Khans (literally, "The Khans") and more closely resembled the Seljuks they had conquered than the "Golden Horde' of Ghengis or the Russian "White Horde". In fact, after Hulegu took Aleppo, there was a large civil war between different Khans ranging from the Il-Khans in Persia to the Khans in Northern India, and In China, and in Mongolia itself. By this time, even their armies looked wildly divergent, with the Mongolians in Mongolia still using strictly Horse-Archers and light cavalry, the Mongols in China having adapted siege warfare and heavy infantry tactics from the Chinese, the Mongolians that had adapted to Indian style warfare were using war elephants, and the "Persian" Mongols using local guerrilla tactics utilized by local Ghazis. So it's impossible to say "The Mongols only burned everything down" or "The mongols only taxed people". Because as they expanded, they ceased to be a unified empire in all but name, with the "Great Khan" having very little real authority over distant leaders in Baghdad.

And we don't think that everyone in Baghdad was killed; just those that got in the way during the looting before the Khan could reign in his men, and the most important leaders. Seljuk culture rapidly assimilated into il-Khan culture, at a rate and breadth so large that it's unlikely they simply copied it from the ruins around them. There is strong evidence to support that many of the artists, poets, architects, engineers, etc. were spared for one or another reason, as were less important religious leaders and even some of the less-senior Ayatollahs, which would explain the relatively quick conversion to Islam by the local mongols, which would have been nearly impossible had the major Islamic religious structure in the area been totally annihilated.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=177764#Comment_177764 2009-07-27T18:14:55-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 looneynerd http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5373 @Kosmo We also see a major floundering of the Caliphates. North Africa breaks off into it's own Caliphate. The Seljuks are either wiped out by mongols or become largely independent. The Ottomans ...
We also see a major floundering of the Caliphates. North Africa breaks off into it's own Caliphate. The Seljuks are either wiped out by mongols or become largely independent. The Ottomans take over much of Turkey, while the Fatimids control parts of Egypt and Arabia. This is in stark contrast to the one or two centralized governments which had existed in the past. Add to that constant pressure by tribal groups, Christians, Indians, and a wealth of others, and there was less time and money for the arts and sciences, which had flourished in large part because of massive funding from the large Imperial governments.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=177771#Comment_177771 2009-07-27T18:26:34-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Fan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6919 @Nygaard You might like _Civilisation_ by Kenneth Clark: it's Europe, but very much about art and cvilization (if it were any *more* about art then it would be a history of art instead of a ...
You might like _Civilisation_ by Kenneth Clark: it's Europe, but very much about art and cvilization (if it were any *more* about art then it would be a history of art instead of a history of civilization).]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=177826#Comment_177826 2009-07-28T00:26:06-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 looneynerd http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5373 Seeing as it's a big topic, I"m going to explain my take on why the Middle East is how it is. My theory (I didn't create it, mind you) combines ideas from a number of historiographical theories ...

There are two primary reasons that the modern mid-east is how it is today. The first, which eventually caused the second, was the discovery of the Americas. One reason the Islamic World was so powerful for so long was because of simple economics; nearly all trade traveling between Europe, Africa, and Asia had to, at some point, travel through the Dar al-Salaam (house of peace, used to refer to any country with a majority population of Muslims regardless of sect or national affiliation). The only real alternate route was the dangerous "North Silk Road", which passed through Siberia and went far out of the way of most major trade centers (the main exception being Kiev, of course). Every piece of silk, every spice, every cylinder of Damascus steel in Europe had had Islamic taxes imposed upon it at some point during it's journey. Every traveler going to China (like Marco Polo) paid sometimes hefty tolls to the Caliphs, Sultans, petty Tribal Lords, and Emperors in the middle east for safe passage. This made, as one would expect, the Middle East insanely rich. Look at the domes on most Mosques in large cities built between the Eleventh and sixteenth century; it's almost always plated with gold. When I say rich, I'm talking unimaginably rich; officers in Salah ad-Din's army were denoted by jeweled helmets, and most of the Caliphs, when going to war, had to be held aloft by a dozen servants because of the amount of gold and jewels that decorated their armor. The palaces of Baghdad had fountains that ran with mercury. I shit you not. These riches financed practical things to; the great Islamic scholars, poets, scientists, mathematicians, and engineers were largely supported by nobles, often paid simply to think for the sake of it. Then the Americas were discovered, and the world economic scale shifted dramatically. Suddenly, most trade was being done by sea. The Europeans could get nearly anything they wanted from the Americas, at a much lower price, or use newly-discovered sea routes to bypass the old silk road. Suddenly, the Islamic world's only real means of wealth was gone. By this point, the big powers in the Region were the Ottomans (Ruling from Eastern Europe to Western Iran) and the Safavids (Persians). There were others (Various North African States, the Sultanate of Oman, etc.), but the Ottomans and Safavids represent the big, important powers in this discussion, so we'll stick with them.

These powers, formerly powerhouses, had begun to stagnate. The Ottomans wouldn't gain a truly modern military again until the peak of the Tanzimat reforms in the 1850s (at which point, the Ottoman Empire only had around 60 years left in its life), and was constantly wracked by internal revolts by Arabs and Kurds, a number of disastrous wars against the Eastern Europeans and the previously mentioned economic strife. The Safavids were even worse off, fighting Ottomans, Russians, Indians and Afghanis, Uzbeks, and tribes too numerous to list. Iran was in an even worse state because, unlike the Ottomans who controlled the fertile regions of Anatolia, Egypt, and the Levant, Iran controlled little fertile land in relation to it's population.

Continued on Next Post.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=177827#Comment_177827 2009-07-28T00:27:26-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 looneynerd http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5373 Continued from last post Okay, so a lot so far, but this is where it get's really complicated, so I'll try to keep it brief. During this period, both powers attempt military modernizations by ...
Okay, so a lot so far, but this is where it get's really complicated, so I'll try to keep it brief. During this period, both powers attempt military modernizations by sending scholars to Europe, who is now getting really good and building things like Cannon and firearms. Realizing that the Ottomans (who, if they can get the technology, still have the numbers and wealth to possible re-invade Europe) could become a major threat, Europe (mainly the power players of England and France, and to a lesser extent Spain) begin sanctioning the middle east. Rebel groups such as Muhammad Ali's Egyptian revolution are spurred on (in Ali's case, by the English) and even given arms and training. In exchange for protection from these groups, the Islamic powers begin to be forced to sign hundreds of disasterous treaties. Exports sent to Europe pay no tariffs, while goods being sent from Europe are taxed at seven times their previous rates. France and England actually take over currency production for the Ottomans, effectively controlling the entire Ottoman economy, with control of the Sultan's treasury actually being given to European banks. Needless to say, this fucks them. Farmers stop farming because of the taxes they're forced to pay, and because European and American-Continent goods are cheaper. Corruption takes over, rebel groups continue to thrive, and it's more or less a bad time to live there. (sounds a bit like modern free trade practices, don't it?)

Then, starting in the late 1700's, a new thing begins to develop. Taking from Western Ideals like nationalism and ethnocentrism, groups of Islamic scholars begin writing new Sharia. Fueled by the strife affecting the region, and by the hatred being more and more directed against the west, this new Sharia becomes more and more confrontational, conservative, violent, and anti-western. This is, my friends, the birth of radical Islam. Wahabists form in Iraq and Iran, the Muslim Brotherhood is founded in Egypt, etc. etc. These groups espouse Arab nationalism based on extreme Islamic law. "People of the Book" (Jews and Christians, until this point equal citizens throughout most of the Islamic world) begin to lose rights and be persecuted. A few coups and revolts break out, but for the most part it acts like a cancer, simmering beneath the surface, slowly eating away at things.

(One more post to go after this, and it's short, I promise)]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=177828#Comment_177828 2009-07-28T00:27:51-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 looneynerd http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5373 Continued from previous posts Jump forward to 1919. The First World War has just ended. The Ottoman Empire is forced to give up nearly all of it's territory and soon after dissolves during the ...

Jump forward to 1919. The First World War has just ended. The Ottoman Empire is forced to give up nearly all of it's territory and soon after dissolves during the Turkish Revolution. The League of nations (in reality, the victorious allies) partitions the middle east. Countries like Iraq, Transjordan (which eventually split to form Syria, Jordan, and parts of Lebanon) the Palestinian block, etc. come into existence, ruled as colonies by proxy. As oil is discovered, it's heavily exploited, and most Muslims become poverty stricken. However, there is now hope. English and French diplomats (the United States had taken rights to certain oil revenues, but little actual land) begin promising something new. When the area stabalizes, a new Caliphate will be formed. A great Arab-Islamic state stretching from Iraq to Egypt, a democratic theocratic monarchy based upon the joint ideals of the European Enlightenment and what is rapidly forming to be a new Islamic Renaissance. Unlike the Ottomans (who were largely Turks with Jewish and Christian administrators) who had ruled this area for centuries, this would be an Arab state, populated by Arabs, ruled by Arabs. Jerusalem and much of the Levant are promised to the Palestinian people as a show of good faith for their assistance during the war, and things seem like they're beginning to recover.

But there's a problem. The Jewish people are craving a state. Suffering hardships in the many countries in which they live (discrimination in the United States, Segregation in much of Europe, and outright Persecution and murder in Russia and Eastern Europe) an idea begins to that they'd be better off with their own home. Many throughout the world support this, and many of the early thinkers on the subject (Jewish and non-Jewish alike) propose many locations for this new state. Parts of the still Sparsely inhabited United States, Areas of the Russian steppe, pacific Islands, South American territories, and many, many other are proposed as the land for this new state. They all have supporters and detractors, benefits and disadvantages. One group, the Zionists, believe that the only true place for a Jewish state is the "land of milk and honey", Israel. However, only something major is going to lead to the formation of a Jewish Nation.

And then it happens. The second world war and the holocaust. There is overwhelming support for the Jewish cause in the wake of the atrocities suffered by the Jewish people. What happens next is a bit blurry; some claim that a Jewish conspiracy allows them to pick and choose where the new state will be, others that sympathy allowed them more power than may have been wise, and dozens of other theories, ranging from the crazy to the racist to the logical, are still debated today.

What happens though, is that the Zionists win their fight. Israel is taken from the Palestinains, promised to them for half a decade, and given to what would become the Israelis. Plans for a new Caliphate fall through, the mid east is farther partitioned, and the modern middle east is fully formed. The arab-israeli conflict beigns in the late 40's, with the Arabs (and by proxy most Muslims) believing that what was promised them was taken away by the west and the Israelis fighting hard for their new home, determined to never again be subjected by another group ever again. The west, particularly the new global super power the United States, supports Israel, with most early Israeli military hardware being strictly American (Sherman Tanks, Mustang Fighters, and Garand Rifles). The first Arab-Israli war is a crushing victory for Israel. They begin the partitioning of Israel itself, and what many call the subjugation of the Palestinians. Believing that trust in the west is what has caused their betrayal and defeat, radical Islam becomes king, and hatred for the west is fully cemented.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=178062#Comment_178062 2009-07-28T16:32:22-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 looneynerd http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5373 Okay, time for me to stop talking for a while and to listen! My university is having some of it's graduate students run a study, and being one of those people, I snagged the "online ...
Up until now, there's been a tendency for Professors of History to just write on a board (or maybe do a powerpoint) and lecture. Why? Well, we're never actually taught how to teach in the way that say, a high school teacher is. We're trained on our area of specialty, Historical theory, and how to write and research, but we almost never learn how to teach students. So we just do it the way our professors taught us. Now though, with dropping scores in Geography and History (subjects normally taught together, inter-relatedly, and by the same professors) there's a push to actually, you know, teach us how to teach.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=178085#Comment_178085 2009-07-28T17:07:26-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Brendan McGinley http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=93 I had a great history teacher who made sure we were hearing a story rather than writing down dates. However, I've long thought it'd be worth trying to establish the world as it is and then work ...
However, I've long thought it'd be worth trying to establish the world as it is and then work backward via the immediate preceding events. In that way, the conclusion of each successive chapter on the teaching timeline ends up a light review of the preceding chapter. So if you want to teach about 9/11 you go back to Afghanistan, then your next lesson is about the cold war, then World War II itself, then World War I, etc.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=178090#Comment_178090 2009-07-28T17:12:53-07:00 2009-07-28T17:16:30-07:00 Jess http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1922 "Up until now, there's been a tendency for Professors of History to just write on a board (or maybe do a powerpoint) and lecture. Why? Well, we're never actually taught how to teach in the way ...
I'm going to respectfully disagree with this, as I find that very few historians do just the lecture/powerpoint these days. And certainly, I've seen plenty of literature (and first hand evidence!) that teaching needs to be hands on. So I while think you're exaggerating the situation somewhat, I do think historians need to adapt to technology a bit better. On that note, you might want to take a look at the May or June issue of AHA Perspectives, which is all about History and New Media. It was an interesting issue, and I think it represents the direction many of us want to take. I helped teach a graduate seminar in the spring in which the goal of the course was to create a website for teaching. It seems like this is a new trend.

These days, many graduate departments have compulsory coursework on teaching. But I agree -- I think there's a general failure to treat teaching as a serious component of the MA/PhD in history and much more needs to be done. We aren't trained as teachers, but as historians who have to teach. I am curious about your findings, so I hope you share them with us here if this isn't going to be a published study. The topic is close to my heart -- I recently did a panel on teaching history, and as a consequence, a friend and I are thinking about a grant proposal to create a teaching resource for graduate students in history programs.

EDIT: I am still randomly capitalizing as a result of looking at 18th century documents for the past two weeks. Pardon me. :)]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=178092#Comment_178092 2009-07-28T17:16:00-07:00 2009-07-28T17:17:03-07:00 looneynerd http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5373 On that note, you might want to take a look at the May or June issue of AHA Perspectives, which is all about History and New Media. It was an interesting issue, and I think it represents the ... On that note, you might want to take a look at the May or June issue of AHA Perspectives, which is all about History and New Media. It was an interesting issue, and I think it represents the direction many of us want to take. I helped teach a graduate seminar in the Spring in which the goal of the course was to create a website for teaching. It seems like this is a new trend.

It actually sitting on my desk right now, along with a recent MESA report on the findings, amongst others :D

EDIT:
EDIT: I am still randomly capitalizing as a result of looking at 18th century documents for the past two weeks. Pardon me. :)


I do it all the time. Look at just about any post I've ever made. Side-effect of the trade I suppose :P]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=178097#Comment_178097 2009-07-28T17:34:08-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 mister hex http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4411 History is more than just names and dates. There has to be an engagement with the Story of History, as Brendan mentioned. That's what the best high school history teachers do. My sister always ...
My sister always said it's like a game - the more you play, the more you want to keep playing.
Don't know if that's helpful at all.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=178099#Comment_178099 2009-07-28T17:35:22-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Jess http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1922 Good to know. If you want recommendations for reading on this subject, I'm happy to share some titles that I think are worthwhile. And not to be an ethics nag, but shouldn't you have some kind of ...
And not to be an ethics nag, but shouldn't you have some kind of release form for soliciting responses for a study? Or are you just trying to draft questions for one? I'm not trying to be mean or quash what strikes me as an important conversation, but I wouldn't want you to get in trouble down the line. I'm not entirely clear what you're trying to do or what this is for, but you should explain this up front. If this is simply an informal conversation, disregard this.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=178104#Comment_178104 2009-07-28T17:42:17-07:00 2009-07-28T17:55:15-07:00 looneynerd http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5373 This is more informal than anything. Simply inter-departmental, non-published, kind of "how can we be better based on anecdotal evidence" type of thing. It won't even be implemented, at ...
Edit

But if anybody is worried about getting credit, I'll be sure to have a linkback to the thread while we're exchanging the ideas we got. Although the thought of having advisers, professors, and associates on whitechapel is a frightening idea indeed...]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=178109#Comment_178109 2009-07-28T18:02:59-07:00 2009-07-28T18:05:34-07:00 Jess http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1922 I'd still like to know what you come up with. I think that some of the responses will be more useful if you and your audience come to an agreement on what history is before they answer how it can ...
To some of the people who have responded -- I personally don't believe in a "story" of history, but I don't subject my students to rote memorization. :) I'm going to bite my tongue for a little bit, because I am curious as to how you all might define history, and I imagine this will give LN some insight into how historians should be taught to teach. We all may be on the same track more or less, but it's good to make sure...!

LN -- Just based on the responses you've already gotten, you might find Sam Wineburg's book (Historical Thinking and Other Unnatural Acts) to be useful.

EDIT: There are some history profs on this forum already, best as I can tell from previous threads. And I've directed some to read Warren's request for historical subjects to write an OGN. Honestly, it's not that frightening. :)]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=178114#Comment_178114 2009-07-28T18:23:46-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Fan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6919 > What are the methods teachers and professors have used to help you learn about history? Firstly, field trips. I read once that some (most) people learn by seeing; some by hearing; and some ... What are the methods teachers and professors have used to help you learn about history?

Firstly, field trips. I read once that some (most) people learn by seeing; some by hearing; and some (fewest) more by touching and feeling. Actually visiting the sites (and to a lesser extent, seeing artefacts isolated in museums) helped to make things (especially day-to-day life, less often one-off events like battles) real for me, easier to imagine and remember: seeing the size of the places and the horizon, feeling the climate, imagining it happening there (instead of it all happening in some 2-dimensional nowhere within my mind), etc.

Secondly, historical novels: like Mary Renault's, or Hornblower, for example. Take anything from that source with a pinch of salt, but still: it's memorable that way. I prefer it (I care to remember more of it) if the novel was recommended to me by a historian as being worthy. I don't put so much (if any) historical faith in movies, though: although they may be memorable dramatically, I don't imagine that (say) the movie of Lawrence of Arabia is in any way historical (although for all I know it might be to some extent, I can't assess how much), or that Ustinov's portrayal of Nero was accurate. I don't want to imply that my dad had anything against Nero, but he hated, hated _Gladiator_ (for its historical inaccuracy).

Thirdly, I learned Maths (for example) by *practice*: I was taught the theory during half the class, and then (second half of class) given new exercises to solve using that theory/technique, so that I learned to apply it. I can't say much as much about history (because I stopped getting any formal history lessons when I was about 11 years old), but back when I was given any history homework, or a history exam, at that (school) level it was typically only to summarise and/or to memorise the contents of a text book; so comparatively history required of me less action, participation, and new techniques: instead, just "facts" (which were actually only hearsay, with no evidence presented) to remember more or less well (c.f. 1066 and all that).

Some people like biographies, also; but that may depend on the biography, and/or it may be an acquired taste.

> What are the topics that stick with you the best, and what are the ones you find the hardest to remember or study?

I suppose for me I liked to know how people lived: their technology, buildings, clothes, transport, agriculture, social organization, occupations and trades; and to imagine what their mental landscape might have been like: what they believed, what they feared etc. The fact that slaves at Washington's house had to whistle as they carried the masters' dinner (to prove they weren't eating from it as they carried it) is more memorable to me now that whatever happened at whichever battle site it was we visited.

Less interesting and less memorable are dates, and place-names, and especially the names of battles which have no further details except that, you know, Prince Rupert or someone like that, whoever he was, lost that one.

(to be continued)]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=178115#Comment_178115 2009-07-28T18:24:10-07:00 2009-07-28T20:12:26-07:00 Fan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6919 > Up until now, there's been a tendency for Professors of History to just write on a board (or maybe do a powerpoint) and lecture. Apart from taking me to see places (and, talking), the one ... Up until now, there's been a tendency for Professors of History to just write on a board (or maybe do a powerpoint) and lecture.

Apart from taking me to see places (and, talking), the one history book that my dad's ever given me recently is Civilisation. It's actually based on a TV series, and that kind of shows: for example the opening sentences of the first chapter, "I am standing on the Pont des Arts in Paris. On one side of the Seine is the harmonious, reasonable facade of the Institute of France, built as a etc." and I can imagine what he's talking about: it engages my image-ination and my sense of location; and especially then this magnificent seque: "At some time in the ninth century one could have looked down the Seine and seen the prow of a Viking ship coming up the river. Looked at today in the British Museum it as a powerful work of art; but to the mother of a family trying to settle down in her little hut, it would have seemed less agreeable -- as menacing to her civilisation as the periscope of a nuclear submarine" (and then goes on to talk about how classical literature survived the Dark Ages).

Historians might be keener on words that most other people are, and something a little more multi-sensory and personal (like, where I imagine that I'm there/then, at least to see and hear if not to act) might be more memorable.

As a young child I had a fair collection (maybe 30) of "Ladybird" history books like this one which I take it are out of print now, on subjects ranging from Stone Age life on the chalk downs all the way through Florence Nightingale to life in the modern army. Apart from being sturdy and informative they had a nice illustration (young Alexander leading Boukephalos in a halter as the armoured adults watch, for example) on every other page ... a picture showing one the siege engines he used to take Tyre ... the army's tracks through the desert on the way home ... anyway, you get the picture.

Humour is a good thing too. My dad says he's given his students the "What have the Romans ever done for us?" as part of his class, and apparently that went well.

Yeah, and slides, too. When he lectures on something, he's been there, and he has the slides (took pictures while he was there). Part of preparing a lecture is selecting slides to illustrate what he's talking about; so going to a lecture engages the eye as well as the ear.

The thing that I don't understand about History Professors, listening to them talking, is that they can talk for hours and hours and hours and hours about ... things, facts, things they've memorised and can say without looking them up. They must have a prodigious memory. I don't know how they do it. You too, look at how many languages you've learned, some of them recently (i.e. when you were an adult), presumably: all that vocabulary. I have a bit of a memory, myself, I'm a software developer and I find that I somehow visualize software (give it a virtual shape), and remember where bits of it are where (i.e. within what shape, what software component); but more so I've learned techniques, like I know "how to drive a car" (a technique), and how to read a map and roadsigns (more techniques), and how to react (e.g. to slow down) in order to get from A to B, whereas what a history professor does seems to me like remembering every pebble along the way.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=178138#Comment_178138 2009-07-28T20:06:30-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Fan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6919 > I am curious as to how you all might define history I think my dad once defined "history" as the period of time that starts with the written records: no written records implies no ... I am curious as to how you all might define history

I think my dad once defined "history" as the period of time that starts with the written records: no written records implies no history. You can still do archaeology for that period, but it's "pre-historic".]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=178168#Comment_178168 2009-07-28T22:52:51-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 trini_naenae http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=183 I am also in the "emphasis the story" camp. However, when I say that, I mean talk about the important people involved and get into their personality and their motives, if we know them. ... On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=178272#Comment_178272 2009-07-29T07:06:57-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 emsie http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=55 Hmm...this thread has made for an interesting read, thank you! On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=178283#Comment_178283 2009-07-29T07:52:59-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 MWHS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5283 @looneynerd - Thanks, that was a really good read. I knew a few bits and pieces of Middle Eastern history, but that's the first good narrative of post-crusade events that I've read. The only thing ... On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=178286#Comment_178286 2009-07-29T08:10:33-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Kosmopolit http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1346 Atlantic ship-building - think the vikings - had been well in advance of the supposedly more advanced Mediterranean cultures since at least the Roman times. (Julius Caesar's plans to invade Britain ...
From what I've read there were two big factors in the rising interest in long-distance overseas trade.

One was the arab monopoly on trade with East Asia.

The other was the conversion of the Poles, Finns and other other Baltic peoples to Christianity.

The medieval church taught that it was a sin to enslave fellow Christians but not pagans and Muslims.

There was a thriving trans-European trade in slaves from the Baltic tribes but when they all became Christian that supply dried up and the Europeans had to buy their slaves from the Muslims.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=178334#Comment_178334 2009-07-29T11:31:13-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 looneynerd http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5373 European and "Arab" ships had two big differences. Ships built in England, Most of France, the Scandinavian regions, etc. were built for the north Atlantic. They were designed to sail upon ...
This also opened up Serious trade with Sub-Saharan Africa. While they were mostly Muslims, many of the thing Europeans wanted from the east (especially Silks, Precious Metals, Salt and certain food items) could be manufactured and obtained in places like the Kingdom of Mali, Kingdom of Ghana, or the Sultanate of Songhai for a lower prices, and without having to support their direct enemies, the Arabs.

Europe was also quickly running out of things to trade. Most trade goods from other parts of the world (China, India, Africa, the Mid-East) were more plentiful and of superior quality, especially in the realm of things like precious metals and manufactured goods. Europeans traded mostly with Wool, the one or two unique spices to Europe, and sometimes things like Olives and Wine. However, by the late middle ages, Eastern Cultures could produce all of these things, and the European Economy was hurting. Gunpowder helped slightly, but many of the previously named cultures already had it, and at the time firearms were of such poor quality that many generals preferred to still just use bows. This spurred long-distance trade because as European commodities became less valuable, merchants couldn't afford to pay the sundry taxes to pass through the near-east. Remember, before the 17th century, the central governments in the Ottoman empire didn't levy taxes, local Sipahis, Emirs, and Pashas did. So if a Merchant was stopped in Istanbul, he'd pay taxes. Then again is Izmir. Then Ankara. Then Aleppo. And every other territory in the empire he passed through. Things changed with tax reform in the 1600s, but by then it was too late and European trading focus had shifted. This is also why the Italians weren't so interested in things like American colonization; in addition to being small compared to the other European powers, the Italian states still controlled the fairly-lucrative Mediterranean trade, and still had quality items that were still valuable enough to trade and make a profit on.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=178363#Comment_178363 2009-07-29T12:30:54-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Kosmopolit http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1346 "Europe was also quickly running out of things to trade." Right up until the end of the 18th century, virtually the only thing the Europeans had that the Chinese would accept in trade ...
Right up until the end of the 18th century, virtually the only thing the Europeans had that the Chinese would accept in trade were silver and gold.

Most of the gold and silver from the Spanish colonies in the New World ended up in China - the Spanish shipped the gold from Mexico to the Philippines and then on to China and then shipped Chinese goods back to Spain.

The Opium trade arose because it was about the only thing the British could sell in China and they were going broke.

In India, virtually no British goods were competitive with local goods. Remember the movie Gandhi? Ever wonder why it was illegal for Indians to make their own cloth or salt? Because only by forcing Indians to buy from English sources could the British companies make a profit in India. The British also had to impose heavy tariffs on non-British imports to maintain their monopoly on the market.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=178442#Comment_178442 2009-07-29T16:12:42-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 MrSmite http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=3810 In regards to teaching history: Having nearly pursued a history degree, I might be a bit biased, but I thought I should mention that as an impressionable teenager who hadn't had much interest in ...
Having nearly pursued a history degree, I might be a bit biased, but I thought I should mention that as an impressionable teenager who hadn't had much interest in history some things turned me around. First off, all the history instructors I've had were inventive and charismatic in some form or other, even one guy's class I sat in on for only one session, and they all were passionate about what they were teaching. Performance can be one of the strongest tools a teacher has, and I've seen it go a long way in other disciplines as well. I've had teachers tie history in with more current events, whether in terms of direct or indirect causality or simply comparison of events ("Does this remind you of someone/something?" was something one teacher liked to point out from time to time). These instructors taught me that history is a puzzle, something to be explored, figured out and learned from. So in effect, many didn't just teach what they knew about history, but how they viewed history.

Something else I've noticed reading your thread has been the degree of detail, and that also brings up the issue of knowing your audience. Firstly, all the material you're putting out in your posts is incredibly intricate and informational, which is great for the topic but can be overwhelming even to interested readers at times. As one art instructor once taught me, sometimes you just have to use bigger brushes. I really can't tell you much about specific engagements during the Seven Years' War, but I can tell you how the outcome shaped the world. When you're playing to a General Education audience, emphasizing the bigger picture is more probably more important, broader brush strokes, easier to digest and retain, so they actually remember something years later. Alternately, I've had one art history instructor who was interminable in her packed GE Renaissance class, but was fun and delightful in a small Medieval art history course where half the class were her Masters-level art history students, and she could geek out without leaving too many people behind.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=178556#Comment_178556 2009-07-30T02:12:43-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Nygaard http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=431 Quentin Skinner said a beautiful thing while talking about "the use of history" - any misrepresentation of him in this paraphrase is mine - while we often look to history as a catalogue of ...
He then went on to exemplify this in a suitably mind-blowing way by excavating the early modern republican, or "neo-roman" concept of freedom, which has the potential to make most modern political ideologies look rather silly.

To me, that's what history is (it's more, of course, but a large part, to me, is this:) - our memory, which now goes back 6000 years or so. A failure of the discipline of history equals dementia on a global scale. (Yeah, if you want to be all cool and cynical about it, there's a good case in claiming it's already happened).

Putting the big words aside, what makes history distinct from, say, a historical novel, is the claim, and the intention, to say true things about the past. That's a lot harder than it sounds, since many historians can't agree on the meaning of a single word in the sentence "Say true things about the past", with the possible exception of "the". I suppose that's a sign of a healthy discipline. On top of that, I might add the historian's stance, as someone who is describing past events from a position in the future, with the benefit (or obstruction) of hindsight, and ordering them in a narrative structure according to a stated set of criteria.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=178599#Comment_178599 2009-07-30T06:01:13-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Labyrinthine http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5782 Did anybody else read those Horrible Histories books as a kid? They were pretty much what got me interested in history in the first place. I mention this because I think the thing that did it was ... people. I mean, the battle of this and the battle of that and the great tidal waves of the other, but everyone involved in all of those was a real person, and I think the poorer history teachers lose that. Now in senior history in high school we did mostly twentieth century stuff, so there were a shitload of sources not just about what HAPPENED but also about the personalities and social dynamics involved. Of course I love the really big picture as well, like the stuff you've been explaining here about the middle east, Looney, cause and effect in broad strokes - the bits I hated were always the fiddly details that didn't feel connected to either the people or the Proverbial Tidal Waves. I think a healthy balance is needed there.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=182762#Comment_182762 2009-08-14T00:40:21-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Kosmopolit http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1346 So a very, very specific and possibly stupid question. I've read a whole bunch of descriptions of sea voyages in the Age of Exploration, most recently I'm reading Samurai William an account of the ...
I've read a whole bunch of descriptions of sea voyages in the Age of Exploration, most recently I'm reading Samurai William an account of the first Englishman to reach Japan.

Something keeps puzzling me. You're becalmed out in the middle of the ocean and running out of food and water. Wouldn't the logical thing to do be to use the ship's boat and go fishing? And did they really not think to make a solar still?]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=182769#Comment_182769 2009-08-14T02:19:40-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 looneynerd http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5373 Some sailors did think of water purification systems; there's evidence that many ships in the Chinese Treasure fleets used different methods for this, which I honestly can't explain because frankly I ...
Fishing was done. The problem is, fish tend to group together in certain areas. It's why your average English fisherman simply doesn't sail to a random point in the mid-atlantic and drop a net; chances are he won't catch anything worth eating. Dropping a line is difficult with hard tack, as many fish aren't going to try to eat something traveling so quickly through the water. The only way to avoid this was to spend extra time looking for a decent fishing area, putting up the sails, and hoping to catch something. Because the guarantee of actually catching something wasn't certain, and because the time that it would take simply to drop and raise the sails and bring the boat to a full stop, and then to find the wind again, might waste a whole day alone, many crews simply weren't willing to take the risk. Many preferred to save time, reach their destination quickly, and go hungry if they had to instead of coming to a dead stop and increasing their chances of entering a storm.

That's if they could stop; in the age of exploration most of the sailing was done on a series of trade lanes discovered in the 15th century known as the Volta Do Mar; these were areas of the ocean where both the winds and currents moved in a certain way to carry travelers between continents if they could catch them at just the right time. Even with a lanteen sail a ship couldn't move fast enough into the wind to make it from africa to south america, or Asia to the Americas, or anything like that. Because the currents here are so strong, even putting sails up wouldn't be enough to slow the ship down enough to reliably catch any fish. You could leave the Volta, but then you run the risk of losing critical time, hitting storms, not finding it again, or some combination of the above. And the storms traveled on the Voltas; a stop on them would guarantee a storm hitting you before too long.

And then there's the fire issue. Assume you've managed to stop, find a good fishing area, gotten enough equipment in the water and then gotten lucky enough to have caught enough fish to feed the whole crew, not been run-over by a storm, and found your way back on course in enough time so as to have not wasted many supplies and to have stayed on schedule (remember, most of these voyages were running on a fairly tight schedule, as the voyage investors wanted to see pay-offs in a timely fashion). Now you've got at least a hundred pounds of fish to feed your crew, probably numbering 40-100 men, possibly more. The ships galley is equipped with only a small stove on which you can cook, and it's only lit in calm water to quickly cook the command-crews' food. there's nowhere to start a larger fire; everything on the ship is canvas, wood, or hemp. Keeping the stove lit for any time is seriously dangerous; one large-ish wave or heavy wind is enough to cause an ember to fall out, which could easily ignite the ship. So at this point you've just got a lot of raw fish that may or may not be safe to eat.

And there's a lot of indication that, as long as the ship stayed on course, the food supply wasn't a huge issue very often. Heck, columbus' first crews had enough energy to land and beat down a few local natives! There were a few long-term voyages where the food supply ran low (Magellan's stretch between india and south America), but most of the time your rations would last long enough to get you to a save port or your destination.

The ultimate answer is that yes, they already fished, but only to supplant their rations. Doing any more would have been a massive risk, one the sailors weren't willing to take. It was easier, once the food was out, just to spread around a few strips of fish and keep your belly full with saw dust. It wasn't comfortable, but you'd survive.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=182779#Comment_182779 2009-08-14T03:54:02-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Kosmopolit http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1346 "And there's a lot of indication that, as long as the ship stayed on course, the food supply wasn't a huge issue very often. Heck, columbus' first crews had enough energy to land and beat down a ...
William Adams was on one of those disastrous voyages though. They were eating the leather from the rigging so you'd think they would have tried fishing.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=182780#Comment_182780 2009-08-14T04:00:44-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 BrianMowrey http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1709 I do not imagine that a solar sill can work on a boat, because there is no temperature contrast between the warm ground of land and the cold night air. I don't think there's dew on the open ...
Also, like looney said, no consistency of edible-size marine life when your in the open, equitorial regions, which is where you're most likely to be if you're calmed long enough to starve. A swarm of squid might pass through. I believe there is a swarm of squid at one point in Heart of the Sea which is the story of the Essex or maybe it was flying fish, but either way it wasn't much of a difference. They starved.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=182795#Comment_182795 2009-08-14T04:37:38-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 looneynerd http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5373 And you have to figure, if they're at the point of eating rigging, there's a good chance they're starved to the point of being delerious. And it's possible the ship wasn't carrying any nets or tackle ... On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=183448#Comment_183448 2009-08-17T11:44:19-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 RenThing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=155 @looney This might be out of your specialization but do you have any suggestions for books on transportation, the deportation of convicts to Australia and Van Diemen's Land?
This might be out of your specialization but do you have any suggestions for books on transportation, the deportation of convicts to Australia and Van Diemen's Land?]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=183449#Comment_183449 2009-08-17T11:47:49-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 looneynerd http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5373 @RenThing I honestly have absolutely, 100%, no idea.
I honestly have absolutely, 100%, no idea.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=183452#Comment_183452 2009-08-17T11:55:08-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 RenThing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=155 Well, thanks anyway. I have who's a librarian at Berkley, I'll see if any of his counterparts might know. On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=183481#Comment_183481 2009-08-17T14:03:28-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 BrianMowrey http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1709 Same book I referenced earlier, The Great Shame, deals extensively with transportation to Australia in relation to the Young Irelander Rebellion. It coveres 1830s to 1880s. However, it's a big ol' ... The Great Shame, deals extensively with transportation to Australia in relation to the Young Irelander Rebellion. It coveres 1830s to 1880s.

However, it's a big ol' tranny mess of a book, also covering the Famine, emigration to American and the Civil War, the Fenians and Canadian invasion, and dropping a fair share of threads of thought along the way. Good for absorbing lots of contemporary context and specific personal stories, bad for providing a bare-bones narrative of the era.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=183531#Comment_183531 2009-08-17T17:15:45-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 mister hex http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4411 @ BrianMowrey - I am, apparently, distantly related to Thomas Kenneally, author of the Great Shame and Schindler's Ark. (The original title). There are a number of very good books on the convict ...
I don't have Ingram at home but I can look up whatever you like at work tomorrow.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=183541#Comment_183541 2009-08-17T18:18:56-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Kosmopolit http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1346 The Fatal Shore by Robert Hughes is pretty good. The Fatal Shore by Robert Hughes is pretty good.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=184294#Comment_184294 2009-08-21T07:52:28-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Jaron Todd http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4627 I guess I'll come out of lurking for a quick, semi-specific question. I'm working on a title that starts in Persia during the 4th Century BCE, with the protagonist travelling through Persia, ...
I'm working on a title that starts in Persia during the 4th Century BCE, with the protagonist travelling through Persia, India, Mesoptamia, Rome, Greece, Egypt, Ethiopia, and other interesting places I can find. What I'm missing is some farther Eastern influences. How much contact with, say, China did the Middle East and areas west of there have during the 4th Century BCE?

I'm wanting to set this during Alexander's conquest with as much cultural influences as possible. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=184296#Comment_184296 2009-08-21T08:24:17-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 looneynerd http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5373 Well in the 4th Century, China was in an era known as the "warring states period". During Alexander's reign, the Zhou dynasty was pretty much gone, with the leaders of the different states ...
Because of the disunity of China, it's trade wasn't yet as firmly established as it would eventually become. Many of the things that could be found in China could be more quickly and easily traded through the Persian (and later Alexandrian) empires from India. Knowledge of China within the Greek states was nearly non-existant as far as we can tell, and was largely viewed by most people as semi-mythological; for instance, even much of India, nominally ruled or claimed by the Persians or allied with them, was largely unexplored, and the average person, even within the empire, had no knowledge of it. The full extent of the "world" was normally considered to be from Eastern Europe to far-western India; even western Europe and Britain were known. Buddhism was slowly starting to seep as far West as Afghanistan at this point, and the slow and gradual development of the art and cultural movement known as Greco-Buddhism, but even that wouldn't become well established until the centuries after Alexander's death. Alexandria Eschate was the city founded by Alexander the farthest east, in modern-day Tajikistan, still hundreds of miles from the border of modern-day china, and thousands from warring states.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=184306#Comment_184306 2009-08-21T09:26:11-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Kosmopolit http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1346 In addition to what Looney said, China 4th century BCE saw a lot of interesting philosophical developments, Confucius had lived in the late sixth and early 5th century BCE but his by the 4tyh his ...
Confucius had lived in the late sixth and early 5th century BCE but his by the 4tyh his teaching were spreading all over china as were the teachings of Lao Tzu who is generally believed to have been a contemporary of Confucius.

After Confucius' death, the Legalists ans the Mohists fought over his legacy.

The victory of the Legalists is one of the great tragedies of human history.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=184309#Comment_184309 2009-08-21T09:36:23-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Jess http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1922 Not to be a killjoy, since I think the people answering questions have done a wonderful job thus far -- but I'd like to see you all help the people asking questions to do additional research on their ...
Anyway, I'd be nice to see more of the interpretive side of things. Otherwise we let people think that we're just a bunch of loons who sit around memorizing books.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=184313#Comment_184313 2009-08-21T09:51:36-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 looneynerd http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5373 @Jess We're not? :D
We're not? :D]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=184318#Comment_184318 2009-08-21T10:06:20-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Jess http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1922 @Looneynerd No, we're not. Maybe we memorize a certain amount of data relevant to our fields or what we're working on, but we certainly cannot memorize everything. When we want to find something ...
No, we're not. Maybe we memorize a certain amount of data relevant to our fields or what we're working on, but we certainly cannot memorize everything. When we want to find something out, we know to where look for certain information, and how to ask ourselves questions that will make our research more fruitful. Basically, there is a research process that we're not sharing.

I certainly don't mean to be offensive to anyone posting to this thread, but I've refrained from participating on many occasions because at times the format just makes me cringe. A bunch of curious people, who sometimes have expressed that they've found history classes to be boring, ask questions and get matter-of-fact answers. And while, again, I think this is helpful, I think we need to be careful about how we decide to share information. Even if you're only providing information off the top of your head, there's no reason why your answer can't also encourage additional research or explain how you came to that conclusion.

What you're sharing is not strictly fact -- it's also your interpretation.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=184324#Comment_184324 2009-08-21T10:32:50-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 looneynerd http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5373 This is true, but this also isn't any kind of formal setting (at all). It's an internet message board, and a thread for the curious. If people want to learn more, or get specific sources or books, ... On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=184325#Comment_184325 2009-08-21T11:05:36-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 LBA http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=615 I do have a question and I would feel stupid for asking it anywhere else, but since I've demonstrated my ignorance many times on this board I have no shame about it now but am having trouble phrasing ...
why are there/does there seem to be 2 different sets of Jews, the Middle Eastern ones, i.e. the ones written about in the old testament of the bible and the Central/Eastern European Jews? I assume they both come from the same origin, Abraham, Isaac and so forth, but when did the split occur? When did the European ones leave Israel? Was it before Exodus, between then and the roman exile? Why the geographical split

Mostly I'm curious because in the past jewish friends of mine have (jokingly) said things along the line of "Don't blame me for the death of Jesus, my ancestors were trudging around eastern europe at the time"

so I'm curious about this if anyone can give me a little history about it.

thanks]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=184334#Comment_184334 2009-08-21T11:49:31-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Jess http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1922 I wouldn't make a distinction between academics and "arm chair history buffs" as historians or not historians, but that has to do with my personal politics about the profession. There is ...
There is a middle ground between simply rattling off information and high-level academic work, else we wouldn't be able to teach critical thinking skills to students. I wasn't requesting your personal exegesis on Foucault, but some sort of integration of resource literacy. Ie, when I want to find out information on X, I often look to source Y, and I understand the pros and cons of using source X. Now look, several posts back I indicated just how much I care about the process of teaching history, and part of the reason I think it becomes difficult to teach students is because we're not always thinking about the consequences of what we say in public about history. Often we let our standards drop, be it from some elitist standpoint that "the public can't understand this," or some false sense that unless we tell a basic narrative, everyone will just find what we do boring. Since when is critical thinking boring?

I'm not picking on you, because we all are guilty of generalizations at times and you just happened to engage me in conversation, but a few posts back you said:

"And there wasn't much scientific knowledge on board a ship; chances were the only people that could even read would be the Navigator, possibly the captain, and maybe one or two exceptional crewmen or priests, so scientific knowledge was quite limited. "

Where did this information come from? Illiteracy did not necessarily preclude knowledge of "science," particularly in the early modern/pre-modern era. I highly suspect that you are thinking of science in a modern sense of the term -- because I personally believe that there were many people who contributed to the creation of scientific knowledge (and possessed it) who were neither literate, or chose to communicate in the same way scholars in Europe did. Think about the groups of people who were not likely to be literate -- did they REALLY have no knowledge of the natural world and how it functioned as a consequence of not being able to read? Again, what you are presenting (literacy is necessary in order to have knowledge of science) is not fact, but an interpretation based on something you read. I've seen this argued successfully both ways, of course, depending on how people interpret what historically constitutes scientific practice. I'm afraid, based on my interpretation, you potentially perpetuate a notion that only white elite men tended to know about science because they were more likely to be literate. To a lesser degree, it may also reinforce a sense that one needed a "formal" education to understand science.

Once upon a time I read Bonnie Smith's Gender of History and was struck by how professional historians and the process of professionalism systematically weeded out women and devalued their historical knowledge. This didn't mean that women knew nothing about history because they didn't have access to training. The same is true of the rise of scientific institutions and perhaps the people asking questions in this thread. So I don't think there's a reason to rehash an academic/amateur boundary by being vague about process. Presentation of information as "fact" from a trusted source can also prevent the most skilled historian from asking additional questions, and I personally feel that we have a responsibility to encourage critical thinking regardless of how informal or formal the forum is.

And if anyone is interested in the ways individuals might understand science in a "vernacular" way, you might check out Mary Fissell's or Susan Scott's Parish's excellent work. Both have published articles as well as full length books, and have influenced my own personal thinking on this subject.

Anyway, I've noted that you often stress an economically driven narrative. Because you and I likely have different approaches, I know I would have answered some of the questions totally differently. I don't have any objection to your answers, nor do I think that they are wrong, I just wish you and everyone else might be a bit plainer about how you arrived at them. Ultimately, I respect your choice to do as you please -- but a little extra effort in crafting a response can go a long way.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=184343#Comment_184343 2009-08-21T12:20:10-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 looneynerd http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5373 Again, and not to be disrespectful, but I think you're putting a bit too much merit and seriousness into the thread. I'd completely agree with you if we were on a forum, like say, H-World or ... On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=184345#Comment_184345 2009-08-21T12:29:10-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Jess http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1922 I'm a bit flabbergasted that you wouldn't want people to take your answers seriously and think about what they mean. But lest LBA's query gets lost in this conversation, I'll let it go for now. On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=184353#Comment_184353 2009-08-21T12:44:36-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Rootfireember http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1551 I can see citing sources in some instances, or linking to relevant information, but we aren't publishing papers for peer-review here, and I don't know the proper format for historical citations, were ... On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=184355#Comment_184355 2009-08-21T12:54:34-07:00 2009-08-21T12:56:57-07:00 Jess http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1922 @Rootfireember -- No, we aren't publishing papers. But I wasn't demanding that you provide Chicago Manual of Style citations either. I was simply asking that we share a bit of the research process in ...
It is not necessary for history to be a.) a simple narrative or b.) highly sophisticated academic-ese. I think because I was criticizing a., the assumption is that I want b. Nor do I think that people aren't taking the thread seriously. In fact, I raised the issue precisely because I do think people are taking the thread seriously and it might be worthwhile to explain some other things that have been going on "behind the scenes" as it were. :)]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=184356#Comment_184356 2009-08-21T13:00:17-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 looneynerd http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5373 @LBA I'm not real up on my Jewish history, but I'll try to answer as best as I can using knowledge of surrounding peoples backed up by some quick wikipedia research. A big part of it has to do with ... I'm not real up on my Jewish history, but I'll try to answer as best as I can using knowledge of surrounding peoples backed up by some quick wikipedia research. A big part of it has to do with deportation. The easiest way to subjugate a conquered land was to simply deport anybody that might try to stand against you, sell them into slavery, etc. Early empires like the Assyrians did that to greater or lesser extents, spreading Jewish populations all over the ancient world. You have groups of Jews leaving Israel under some of these empire willingly, seeking to establish their own autonomous communities elsewhere. You've also got normal, good-old emigration which, while not necessarily widespread then as it is now, still wasn't unheard of. Why do we have Lebanese in Toledo? Good economic, political, or religious opportunities. Same thing here ( I would assume). Wars also cause people to spread out. The Roman-Judeo wars were really difficult on the Jewish population in the Levant, and the destruction of the temple, the slaughter of populations at places like Massada, and general persecution under certain emperors (cough Trajan cough) convinced many people to leave for good. Then you get multiple slaughters in the area, whether they be at the hands of romans or arabs or crusaders, and what's left of the population is greatly diminished by the time the (largely) accepting Muslims arrive. For instance, we see big Jewish populations in Spain because the Spanish Muslims were far better rulers to live under than the likes of Charlemagne or the Crusader states. I.E., you have people moving to places and away from Israel simply because they're better places to live at the time for different reasons.

This Wiki Article covers some of the facts pretty well. I'd also look up articles on the Crusades, Roman-Judean wars, Muslim conquest of the holy land, and the history of israel.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=184357#Comment_184357 2009-08-21T13:02:46-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Rootfireember http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1551 @Jess- AH! I see what you're getting at. I misunderstood, thinking that you wanted formal citations for everything (Chicago style isn't one I've dabbled in). What would you suggest the average joe ... @Jess-
AH! I see what you're getting at. I misunderstood, thinking that you wanted formal citations for everything (Chicago style isn't one I've dabbled in). What would you suggest the average joe use to seek more knowledge on the interwebs or from their local library, if they didn't have access to First Search or Peer Reviewed Journals? Also, within First Search, are there any specific databases you'd use?]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=184360#Comment_184360 2009-08-21T13:10:43-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Frekky http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6896 @LBA I am certainly not qualified to answer your question, but if you are looking for some decent soure material take a look at The Jew in the Medieval World as well as Under Crescent and Cross ... The Jew in the Medieval World as well as Under Crescent and Cross both provide an indepth look at Jews in the middle ages. The 2nd was a very good read]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=184363#Comment_184363 2009-08-21T13:21:04-07:00 2009-08-21T13:32:44-07:00 Jess http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1922 To add to what Looneynerd provided, you might try www.jewfaq.org, LBA. Are you asking about the difference between Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews? (Though I will warn that many Jews find this ... http://www.jewfaq.org/ashkseph.htm

@rootfireember -- It depends on where you are, to be honest. Connecticut, for example, has public access to a variety of databases like Heritage Quest and Hartford Courant Historical just by having a CT library card. You can purchase a Philadelphia library card out-of-state and get access to Early American Imprints, but Philly residents get this for free. Boston Public also has a number of sites, so I always like to check with my public library to see what they subscribe to.

Many databases that are free for public use are very specific ones, and I am mostly familiar with the ones pertinent to my own work. However, I listed a bunch in another thread a while back, so let me see if I can hunt up that list again for you. I probably can be more helpful if you asked about resources related to a particular topic of inquiry.

Can you link to the database called First Search? I don't know if my university has a subscription to it, unless we call it something else. I googled it and Worldcat came up, but Worldcat is a global library listing and I wasn't sure if that was what you were referring to.

EDIT:

Here are some databases worth exploring if you just want to get familiar with primary sources, or if you're just looking to learn a little more about a particular topic. Generically, if I was looking for something, had limited access to databases, and wanted a sense of both primary and secondary sources, I might try checking books.google.com and playing with the advanced filters. I will add that this is better for questions about the last 300 years. But I tend to specialize in the early modern/modern era. Someone else may have to fill in the gaps about how they conduct e-research for earlier time periods.

Although I am always a fan of getting to know your local archivists and puttering around in an archive if it makes sense to do so.

http://dohistory.org (Based on Laurel Thatcher Ulrich's Midwife's Tale)
http://iconn.org (Connecticut Residents only, or access with valid CT library bar code -- gives access to Heritage Quest and Proquest Hartford Courant Historical Archives)
http://www.whitmanarchive.org/ (Walt Whitman Archives)
http://www.shaysrebellion.stcc.edu/ (Shay's Rebellion)
http://www.slavevoyages.org/tast/index.faces (Transatlantic Slave Database)
http://www.davidrumsey.com/farber/ (Farber Gravestone Collection, courtesy of the American Antiquarian Society)
http://elections.lib.tufts.edu/aas_portal/index.xq (A New Nation Votes, American Election Returns 1787-1825)
http://www.letrs.indiana.edu/web/w/wright2/(Wright American Fiction Database)
http://www.indiana.edu/~letrs/vwwp/vwwp-links.html (Victorian Women Writer's Project)]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=184369#Comment_184369 2009-08-21T13:29:22-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Rootfireember http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1551 FirstSearch is a database collection of various journal articles, abstracts and books under a variety of fields, will see if I can link to it after work. On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=184371#Comment_184371 2009-08-21T13:35:02-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 looneynerd http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5373 jstor.org is a really valuable journal service, if you have access to it. If you're not involved with any of the 6,000 universities or libraries that use it, you can pay a small fee to use it. There ... On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=184372#Comment_184372 2009-08-21T13:35:28-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Jess http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1922 Thanks -- my only other thought is that you might be referring to what we call Academic Search Premier, else it's a database I'm entirely unfamiliar with. I usually use JStor/Project Muse to search ... On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=184395#Comment_184395 2009-08-21T15:43:56-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Kosmopolit http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1346 "why are there/does there seem to be 2 different sets of Jews, the Middle Eastern ones, i.e. the ones written about in the old testament of the bible and the Central/Eastern European Jews? I ...
After the Sack of Jerusalem in 70 AD, Jews were forbidden from living within a certain distance of Jerusalem (50 miles or so from memory).

By this time, there was already a big Jewish diaspora all over the roman world. Alexandria was supposedly 50% Egyptian, 25% Greek, 25% Jewish for example.The last great Jewish uprising in 120 AD was called "the rising of the East" because it took place in almost ever major city in the eastern half of the Empire.

So Jews spread out all over the then-known world. Because there was a religious requirement that Jewish men know how to read, they had a leg-up in the profession and trade in a world where the majority of people were illiterate.

After the sack of Jerusalem there was no longer a central religious authority within Judaism. Rabbis wrote extensively and shared each others works and some post-70AD authors were highly influential but none of their work was regarded as authoritative or divinely inspired by all Jews and different Jewish communities started to develop their own interpretations of the law and their own theories abotu matters where the Torah was silent.

On many issues there's far more divergence within Judaism than within Christianity or Islam. For example, some branches of Judaism teach reincarnation, others don't.

(I've just realised that answering this question in full will take a LOT so I'm going ot break here and provide some links.

Short version of the answer: Jews in Europe were treated very different to Jews in other parts of the world (including other Christian areas.) They developed their own language (Yiddish) based primarily on German while Jews in the Islamic states in Spain developed a language (Ladino) based on Spanish. European Jews from the late middle ages onwards were forced to live in ghetttoes restricted in what jobs they could hold disrciminated agaisnt in legal proceeding etc.

In the Muslim world and in other Christian countries like Georgia and Ethiopia Jews lived much more like their non-Jewish counterparts.

After the reconquest of Spain by Christians the Spanish Jews were expelled and most moved to North Africa and Asia Minor where they intermarried with the local Jewish populations. The Spanish Jewish community had been one of the largest, richest and most educated in the world and they tended to assume positions of leadership in the Jewish communities which they joined and introduced Ladino and their particular schools of Judaism.

There was always some contact between the different branches of Judaism and they all shared Hebrew as a liturgical language but sheer distance led to their cultures developing differently.

Today there are three major groups of Jews: Ashkenazim (from Ashkenaz the Biblical name for Germany); Sephardim (from Sepharda the Biblical name for Spain) and Mizrahi (literally "People of the East"). Mizrahi is a neologism for all the various smaller groups from the middle east and points further east (Persia, Pakistan, the Caucasus etc.)

Even that's a vast oversimplification because there are other groups than don't fit into these categories like the Romaniote Jews of Greece who are directly descended from Jews who lived in Greece and what's now western turkey since Roman times.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=184403#Comment_184403 2009-08-21T16:30:02-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Fan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6919 I'll suggest another way to look at it. Every people from every country spread out: in war and peace, invasion and trading, as colonists, emigrants, refugees, retirees, skilled labourers, etc. ...
Every people from every country spread out: in war and peace, invasion and trading, as colonists, emigrants, refugees, retirees, skilled labourers, etc. This "everyone" includes Romans, for example, Greeks, Phoenecians, Franks, Vikings, all spread out all over the known world. A remarkable feature of Jews in particular, compared with other peoples, is that their culture (to do with inter-marrying, or even eating together) encouraged their remaining a distinct people. The remarkable thing, compared with ancient Romans for example, isn't that they spread out but that they persist as distinct/identifiable through the centuries.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=184410#Comment_184410 2009-08-21T16:49:40-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 looneynerd http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5373 I'd also like to interject here and point out that Jews actually started moving back towards Jerusalem after the reconquista. The Sultans Mehmed II and Beyazid II each issued invitations for Jews to ...
@Fan

You have to remember, especially in the different Muslim empires where their populations flourished, they were purposefully kept as a distinct ethnic minority. This wasn't necessarily because of any inherent prejudice (in fact, all minority groups, including Christians and even minority Muslims) were treated the same way. Why? Well, this all comes down to economics, really. Non-Muslims (and non Sunni's or Shi'a or Sufi, depending on the empire) were expected to pay more in taxes. That's why we don't see forced conversions in most cases in Islamic states; it didn't make good financial sense. All minority religions, then, in a sense were seen like the jews; not only a religion but also as a distinct race and ethnic group, even though that certainly was normally not the case.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=184412#Comment_184412 2009-08-21T17:00:50-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Kosmopolit http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1346 Looney my understanding was that the additional tax non-Muslims was supposed to make up for the religious tax Muslims were required to pay to the religious authorities rather than to the temporal ... On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=184413#Comment_184413 2009-08-21T17:15:07-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 looneynerd http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5373 To an extent, and in theory, yes, that's true. But it was frequently used as an excuse to levy greater taxes on religious minorities to finance various projects and programs. We especially see a lot ...
Why do we know this? Well, the Muslim cheritible tax to religious authorities was always rated at a fixed percentage, normally 5-10% of a family's income depending on their trade, where they lived etc, while non-muslims frequently payed much higher taxes in these types of systems (the average rate for Jews in the Ottoman Empire, for instance, seems to be around 15%; see The Jews of the Ottoman Empire and the Turkish Republic by Stanford Shaw for more). These higher taxes were sometimes insisted on by the Islamic majority, to ensure that favoritism wasn't shown to minority groups (as I pointed out earlier, Jews came close to running several Islamic economies at different points in history).]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=184418#Comment_184418 2009-08-21T17:24:57-07:00 2009-08-21T17:29:02-07:00 mister hex http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4411 I once confused a party full of people by claiming that the Irish were the Lost Tribe of Israel. The Very Lost Tribe. Dark good looks, fierce intelligence, religious devotion (uh ... to the wrong ...
EDIT TO ADD : That was during my Drinking-In-Public-and-Being-Invited-Out-Places phase. Now I drink alone, unless the Lord counts as a person.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=184432#Comment_184432 2009-08-21T18:06:08-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Mike Black http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=151 Just tossing this out there to anyone who may be familiar (as I don't expect Looney to know everything.) Is anyone aware of a solid background book on Nestor Makhno? There isn't much on the web ...
Is anyone aware of a solid background book on Nestor Makhno? There isn't much on the web yet about that part of the Russian Revolution, so I was hoping there was a solid book out there (a cursory glance at Amazon shows a few books, but I want to make sure.)]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=184511#Comment_184511 2009-08-22T06:34:06-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Brendan McGinley http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=93 @ Mister Hex -- I remember reading once there are a number of Irish words that have nothing to do with Indo-European but which do resemble a number of Semitic words. Not quite what I was looking ...
Not quite what I was looking for, but it'll do.

My own, biased, spun-out-of-air-with-no-evidence idea is Carthaginian exiles fleeing Roman purview settled there. Because that'd be keen.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=184515#Comment_184515 2009-08-22T07:53:55-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 looneynerd http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5373 Language is a weird thing. Like the fact that two of the most closely related languages in the world are Finnish and Korean, to the point that until the 1960's the were believed to belong to the same ...
@Brendan

Or it may have to do with the "Black Irish". We know that the Jews and other Semitic-language speakers were aware of Spain in the ancient world, and research has show many Irish people have genetics similar to people on the Iberian peninsula. A theory is that the two traded and possibly cross-migrated. They would obviously end up transferring words to one another, as always happens when two different groups meet, and it's possible that these Irish words were corruptions of semitic words the Iberians had borrowed from populations farther east.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=184518#Comment_184518 2009-08-22T08:27:17-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 LBA http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=615 thanks for all the information all. this thread does kick a lot of ass
this thread does kick a lot of ass]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=184553#Comment_184553 2009-08-22T13:38:14-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Boga_ http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6871 A theory is that the two traded and possibly cross-migrated. They would obviously end up transferring words to one another, as always happens when two different groups meet, and it's possible that ... A theory is that the two traded and possibly cross-migrated. They would obviously end up transferring words to one another, as always happens when two different groups meet, and it's possible that these Irish words were corruptions of semitic words the Iberians had borrowed from populations farther east.

The lusitanians from the eastern part of the Iberian Peninsula colonized parts of Ireland in the centuries before the roman occupation.

Just an aside, I really enjoy your posts, but seeing people refer to pre-roman peninsula as "spain" really makes the hair on the back my neck stand up.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=184586#Comment_184586 2009-08-22T16:13:57-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 looneynerd http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5373 Spain, Iberian Peninsula, Andalusia, Al-Andalus... I think they all work in informal parlance like this. And as far as I know there's no evidence of outright Iberian colonization of Ireland (if there ... On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=184625#Comment_184625 2009-08-22T18:22:41-07:00 2009-08-22T18:42:17-07:00 Boga_ http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6871 Andalusia is a spanish corruption of Al-Andalus, which, in turn, was the arab name for the islamic territories in the south of the peninsula. The term Andalusia is used today to designate a very ... Not like the I.P. has ever been unified (or even ethnically homogenous for that matter), except between 1580 and 1640, and even that's debatable.

When I spoke of the Irish "colonization", I spoke of the iron-age migration between Ireland and the Celtiberian tribes (namely, the Lusitanians), not any kind of Neolithic mass-migration which is where most of the common ground between Irish and Iberian genetic ancestry is drawn from. This exchange can be traced back to the first Celtic settlements in the western peninsula, which were founded by Hibernians (the Brigantes, more specifically) from modern-day England, who were from Celtic stock.]]> On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=184626#Comment_184626 2009-08-22T18:32:51-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 looneynerd http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5373 The point is that they're all terms that at one time or another were used for the same general area and are roughly synonymous unless we're being incredibly nitpicky. On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=184630#Comment_184630 2009-08-22T18:46:40-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Boga_ http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6871 Well, if you think that taking objection to the use of a term that neither designates the geographical area that is being referred to, or even existed in the historical period in question, then I ... On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=184631#Comment_184631 2009-08-22T18:49:58-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 looneynerd http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5373 Would you prefer I go back and edit each to post include the phrase "modern day"? On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=184632#Comment_184632 2009-08-22T18:51:18-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 Boga_ http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6871 No, that's fine. On History http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5230&Focus=184677#Comment_184677 2009-08-22T23:49:06-07:00 2013-05-23T05:15:16-07:00 stsparky http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2311 Jews went everywhere; There were the 20th century Anglo-Irish constables who thought the Hebraic writing on a Kosher butcher's shop was the then outlawed Gaelic. More ancient Jewish world travelers ...

Some believe this wall built to repel the Mongols was built using Babylonian Jewish masonry techniques.]]>