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			<title type="text">Whitechapel - On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
			<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
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			<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=139335#Comment_139335" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=139335#Comment_139335</id>
		<published>2009-03-21T08:32:35-07:00</published>
		<updated>2010-06-18T18:38:38-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Finagle</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5254</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			Discussions of a philosophical nature come up from time to time on WC, and I've noted a number of us who have advanced degrees in philosophy or who have studied particular authors (Deleuze and ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[Discussions of a philosophical nature come up from time to time on WC, and I've noted a number of us who have advanced degrees in philosophy or who have studied particular authors (Deleuze and Guattari for instance).  <br /><br />I was in a Continental Philosophy* PhD program for five years and have a background in teaching professional, medical and computer/internet ethics as well as general Early Modern philosophy and French and German poststructuralism.  I know there's a few others with similar backgrounds if you want to identify yourselves.<br /><br />Stuff we can talk about**:<br /><br />- Random philosophical questions<br />- Post a line from a work and discuss<br />- Philosophy wank from other threads (Say, topics brought up by BSG)<br />- Stuff about graduate studies in philosophy (although I'm a bit out of date)<br /><br /><br />-----<br />* "Continental" philosophy in the U.S. is the European course of thought from Kant through Hegel, Husserl and Heidegger via Nietzsche and Kierkegaard, then proceeding on through existentialism and phenomenology to structuralism and poststructuralism (Foucault, Derrida, Lyotard), but also including Critical Theory on the German side (Adorno through Habermas).<br /><br />** Idea shamelessly stolen from Looneynerd's "On History" thread]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=139377#Comment_139377" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=139377#Comment_139377</id>
		<published>2009-03-21T10:35:24-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>mister hex</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4411</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			I have nothing to add. 

There, I've said it.

Discuss.
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[I have nothing to add. <br /><br />There, I've said it.<br /><br />Discuss.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=139420#Comment_139420" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=139420#Comment_139420</id>
		<published>2009-03-21T13:27:57-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>MWHS</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5283</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			@mister hex - 'Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent'?

@Stygmata - I'm a first year undergraduate, but since my course is History and Philosophy I'll have to keep tabs on both ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[@mister hex - 'Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent'?<br /><br />@Stygmata - I'm a first year undergraduate, but since my course is History and Philosophy I'll have to keep tabs on both threads now. Although I studied Philosophy at A level (16-18 years old here in Britain), I'm still at the 'study everything I can before deciding on a speciality' stage. If anything I lean towards the analytic and empiricist traditions though.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=139433#Comment_139433" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=139433#Comment_139433</id>
		<published>2009-03-21T14:31:06-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Finagle</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5254</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			@mister hex - nice demonstration of the principle of negation as the basis for perception, as first laid out in Hegel and later elaborated by Sartre.  By adding nothing you have added something. ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[@mister hex - nice demonstration of the principle of negation as the basis for perception, as first laid out in Hegel and later elaborated by Sartre.  By adding nothing you have added something. <br /><br />@MWHS - always welcome.  I was doing some readings in autopoeisis theory towards the end of my school career, ever hear of it?]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=139744#Comment_139744" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=139744#Comment_139744</id>
		<published>2009-03-22T08:08:33-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Darkest</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4849</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			I'm nearing the end of a BA degree in Philosophy. In fact I'm in  the libary right now finishing an essay for tommorow.

Kierkegaard, Nietzsche, Hegel and Wittgenstein are all very interesting. ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[I'm nearing the end of a BA degree in Philosophy. In fact I'm in  the libary right now finishing an essay for tommorow.<br /><br />Kierkegaard, Nietzsche, Hegel and Wittgenstein are all very interesting. <br /><br />I wouldn't know what I am specifically any more. Study has sort of torn the house of knowledge down around me.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=140242#Comment_140242" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=140242#Comment_140242</id>
		<published>2009-03-23T18:24:57-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>allana</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4019</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			my degree is in Cultural Theory - in the core first-year class we started with Walter Benjamin's &quot;Art In the Age of Mechanical Reproduction,&quot; and then did the Birmingham School right after ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[my degree is in Cultural Theory - in the core first-year class we started with Walter Benjamin's "Art In the Age of Mechanical Reproduction," and then did the Birmingham School right after (Stuart Hall, Richard Hoggart, Richard Williams). we talked a lot about Marx, obviously, and John Berger and Jean Baudrillard and Edward Said and a few other dudes were mentioned. that was how i started - i didn't hear about Hegel until third year, and we didn't have to read any Plato until fourth. <br />before this i had had almost no notion of philosophy or cultural theory, other than a cursory overview of psychoanalysis that my high school English teacher squeezed in near the end of a semester. i come at it with an emphasis on art theory and aesthetics, because i can't stand politics and find art theory always engaging. and i write about music, so i read stuff like Jacques Attali's <em >Noise</em> when i hear about it. but i'm pretty much at a loss for which theorist said what and which school he belonged to -- Kant reads just like Hume reads just like Hegel to me right now; only Nietzsche sticks out because of his easily-digestable aphorisms. <br /><br />so what i'm doing now, in my spare time, is filling in the gaps -- i'm going non-chronologically, and hitting essentially anyone that strikes my fancy. there's a pile of books at my back that includes Wittgenstein (though i'm told the Tractacus is better than Phil.Inv.?) and Hegel and Rousseau and a linguistics textbok and Michel de Certeau and some Arthur Danto essays, and my to-buy list includes Deleuze and Guattari's <em >A Thousand Plateaus</em>, Schopenhauer's <em >Art of Literature</em>, and maybe John Ruskin's <em >Modern Painters</em> if i can luck into a cheap copy.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=140256#Comment_140256" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=140256#Comment_140256</id>
		<published>2009-03-23T19:19:28-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Finagle</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5254</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			@Darkest - Kierkegaard and Nietzsche are two of my favorites. Read Kierkegaard alongside Hegel if you can, it really does help.  

@allana - Some of my most interesting courses were in art history. ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[@Darkest - Kierkegaard and Nietzsche are two of my favorites. Read Kierkegaard alongside Hegel if you can, it really does help.  <br /><br />@allana - Some of my most interesting courses were in art history.  Have you read <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Painting-Modern-Life-Timothy-Clark/dp/0691009031" >The Painting of Modern Life</a>?<br /><br />I'd love to get into some  Deleuze later.  I was considering posting the "Introduction to the Non-Fascist Life" preface Foucault wrote as a starter.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=140261#Comment_140261" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=140261#Comment_140261</id>
		<published>2009-03-23T19:32:08-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>looneynerd</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5373</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			I was never a big Nietzsche guy. He always seemed too much of a pessimist to be a good existentialist. But maybe that's just me...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[I was never a big Nietzsche guy. He always seemed too much of a pessimist to be a good existentialist. But maybe that's just me...]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=140267#Comment_140267" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=140267#Comment_140267</id>
		<published>2009-03-23T19:46:55-07:00</published>
		<updated>2009-03-23T19:47:06-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Finagle</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5254</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			@looneynerd - 

I think that is not always warranted.  Nietzsche put great stock in cheerfulness - take for instance the preface to /Twilight of the Idols/, which was his best book after the ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[@looneynerd - <br /><br />I think that is not always warranted.  Nietzsche put great stock in cheerfulness - take for instance the preface to /Twilight of the Idols/, which was his best book after the /Genealogy of Morals/:<br /><blockquote >Maintaining cheerfulness in the midst of a gloomy task, fraught with immeasurable responsibility, is no small feat; and yet what is needed more than cheerfulness? Nothing succeeds if prankishness has no part in it. Excess strength alone is the proof of strength. A revaluation of all values: this question mark, so black, so huge that it casts a shadow over the man who puts it down -- such a destiny of a task compels one to run into the sunlight at every opportunity to shake off a heavy, all-too-heavy seriousness. Every means is proper to do this; every "case" is a case of luck. Especially, war. </blockquote>]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=140370#Comment_140370" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=140370#Comment_140370</id>
		<published>2009-03-24T02:40:01-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Rictus</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5272</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			Those who do need no philosophy.
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[Those who do need no philosophy.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=140406#Comment_140406" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=140406#Comment_140406</id>
		<published>2009-03-24T05:21:28-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Labyrinthine</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5782</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			I'm studying Communications and some of last year's subjects covered a lot of this stuff. I found I quite like Bourdieux but can't read Foucault, the man simply does not know when a sentence MUST ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[I'm studying Communications and some of last year's subjects covered a lot of this stuff. I found I quite like Bourdieux but can't read Foucault, the man simply does not know when a sentence MUST END. Deep Thoughts are all very well but clarity counts for a lot!<br /><br />What do you professional philosophers think about Edward De Bono? I went through quite a Bono-fan phase a few years ago and got all these books out of my library - eventually I realised they were sort of ALL THE SAME, but that doesn't make his points less valid, it just means he needs to stfu and do new editions instead of new books :P]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=140515#Comment_140515" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=140515#Comment_140515</id>
		<published>2009-03-24T12:06:18-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>voyou</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2205</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			allana: Wittgenstein (though i'm told the Tractacus is better than Phil.Inv.?) 

They're very different, so it's hard to say which is better. The Tractatus is very short, and compressed to the ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[allana: <em >Wittgenstein (though i'm told the Tractacus is better than Phil.Inv.?) </em><br /><br />They're very different, so it's hard to say which is better. The <em >Tractatus</em> is very short, and compressed to the point of being inscrutable. The first line is "The world is everything that is the case," which is a good example of the impressively poetic, almost mystical, quality of much of the book. It's beautiful in a jewel-like way, though incredibly difficult.<br /><br />The <em >Philosophical Investigations</em>, on the other hand, is more like an internal dialog; Wittgenstein runs through thought-experiments, imagines possible disagreements, explores digressions. It's more engaging and meditative than the <em >Tractatus</em>; it also probably has more to say about cultural issues, so if that's the angle you're coming from, you might get more out of the <em >Investigations</em> than the <em >Tractatus</em> (but read them both!).]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=140521#Comment_140521" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=140521#Comment_140521</id>
		<published>2009-03-24T12:26:00-07:00</published>
		<updated>2009-03-24T12:27:48-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>aike</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1426</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			Many German philosophers, especially Heidegger and Wittgenstein, lose much of their elegance in translation.  I haven't read Nietzsche in German, but I would also assume his work suffers quite a bit, ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[Many German philosophers, especially Heidegger and Wittgenstein, lose much of their elegance in translation.  I haven't read Nietzsche in German, but I would also assume his work suffers quite a bit, too. All of them worked magic with incredible control of nuanced, fine and subtle differences in meaning. English simply can't do that to the same degree. I sometimes wonder how important that is to the philosophy, or if, as long as the ideas are discernible, it doesn't matter too much. Hard for me to say, because in almost all cases, I read the German version first, so when reading the translation, I superimposed my image of the German on top of it. I know that Freud's ideas suffered from poor translations and often still do. <br /><br />Probably the same is true for other languages, too, but none of my other language skills are good enough to attempt philosophy.  Actually, that is a lie, I translated the Dao De Jing in my last year of undergrad... it was a disaster. But it helped me understand the Chinese version better. Maybe. I don't think I could translate a pre-school easy reader now, though.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=140525#Comment_140525" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=140525#Comment_140525</id>
		<published>2009-03-24T13:09:23-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Butoh</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4692</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			I envy you all. I didn't have the balls to take a philososphy major, and turned to Communication. Now i regret it a bit, and try to compensate through mysticism and the occult. Go, people, and ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[I envy you all. I didn't have the balls to take a philososphy major, and turned to Communication. Now i regret it a bit, and try to compensate through mysticism and the occult. Go, people, and philosophy!]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=140551#Comment_140551" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=140551#Comment_140551</id>
		<published>2009-03-24T14:25:16-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Darkest</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4849</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			I'd imagine the language would be quite important for Nietzsche given his sense of humour and use of word play. but still one of my favourite quotes from him aside from the classic about the abbyss ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[I'd imagine the language would be quite important for Nietzsche given his sense of humour and use of word play. but still one of my favourite quotes from him aside from the classic about the abbyss is "I am not a man. I am Dynamite!" that never ceases to amuse me. <br /><br />I should really be doing a philosophy of language essay now.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=140607#Comment_140607" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=140607#Comment_140607</id>
		<published>2009-03-24T17:28:19-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Redwynd</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=653</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			Just a quick question for the philosophy buffs: having grown up in a semi-rural area whose residents seemed to prize the ability to consume near-fatal amounts of alcohol without (sadly) dying, I long ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[Just a quick question for the philosophy buffs: having grown up in a semi-rural area whose residents seemed to prize the ability to consume near-fatal amounts of alcohol without (sadly) dying, I long since became fascinated with the idea of eugenics. Any pointers on where to start reading?]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=140613#Comment_140613" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=140613#Comment_140613</id>
		<published>2009-03-24T17:44:06-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Finagle</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5254</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			@Redwynd:

I would start with Peter Singer.  He is a thorough utilitarian who advocates a variety of controversial positions, from animal rights to what some interpret as support for active ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[@Redwynd:<br /><br />I would start with Peter Singer.  He is a thorough utilitarian who advocates a variety of controversial positions, from animal rights to what some interpret as support for active euthanasia.   If you start with Singer and then read a variety of reactions to Singer's work, you will get a pretty broad overview of positions.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=140619#Comment_140619" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=140619#Comment_140619</id>
		<published>2009-03-24T18:04:23-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Redwynd</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=653</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			@Stygmata

Thanks, I'll make a note of him. Though I have to admit, I do tend to fall more into the &quot;active euthanasia&quot; camp than any other, though I've often thought that it may be more ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[@Stygmata<br /><br />Thanks, I'll make a note of him. Though I have to admit, I do tend to fall more into the "active euthanasia" camp than any other, though I've often thought that it may be more simply a rejection of the legal and moral egalitarianism that currently holds sway. Or perhaps disgust that the natural laws (competition for scarce resources and survival of the fittest) have been completely removed from the human condition.<br /><br />Disclaimer, as it usually comes up at this point in any discussion: I am not racist. I have simply come to the conclusion that there is a very, very large number of extraneous people around, whose sole role is to consume vast quantities of resources to no productive end.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=140621#Comment_140621" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=140621#Comment_140621</id>
		<published>2009-03-24T18:12:41-07:00</published>
		<updated>2009-03-24T18:14:14-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>G. Foyle</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=3863</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			Just a brief chiming in on the issue raised about clarity in writing.  (I'm a long way removed from my Foucault/Debord/Adorno/etc. kick, so probably won't be able to keep up with the conversation.)  ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[Just a brief chiming in on the issue raised about clarity in writing.  (I'm a long way removed from my Foucault/Debord/Adorno/etc. kick, so probably won't be able to keep up with the conversation.)  <br /><br />But I do remember complaining to someone about trying for hours to get past the first twenty or so pages of 'Of Grammatology.'  He noted that sometimes obtuseness (for lack of [the will to come up with] a better word), by forcing the reader to think through the ideas presented, can be a good means for a writer to engage his audience.  Of course, sometimes obtuseness is just bad writing/translation, but I always thought that was kind of an interesting take on the issue.<br /><br />(In the end, I think I preferred Adorno and even Debord, who tend to write very simply, at least in translation, to Derrida.  Mythologies and Society of the Spectacle for the win.  But then again, I'm kinda lazy.)<br /><br />[Edited because I didn't finish my last sentence.]]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=140694#Comment_140694" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=140694#Comment_140694</id>
		<published>2009-03-24T23:37:32-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>oga</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=3803</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			My MA English was dominated by literary theory and poetics.  I loved Wittgenstein, Deleuze, not so much Derrida, Lacan, Freud, but I loved Barthes for some reason at the time, now I'm pretty much meh ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[My MA English was dominated by literary theory and poetics.  I loved Wittgenstein, Deleuze, not so much Derrida, Lacan, Freud, but I loved Barthes for some reason at the time, now I'm pretty much meh about theorists/philosophers.  <br /><br />I think I can pin it down to whether or not they are writing from their heart (Nietszche) or from their mind (Derrida) or a mix of both (Virillo/Delanda).  <br /><br />My feeling is that if you can't discuss your ideas simply, poetically, and without citing every mother and their bastard sons while you're at it, then rather than let your work descend into a string of buzzwords and name-dropping, then don't bother.  <br /><br />Having said that, I don't have the patience or attention span for it anymore.  There's something about having oodles of spare time at university that facilitates reading dense, impenetrable work and getting off on it.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=140723#Comment_140723" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=140723#Comment_140723</id>
		<published>2009-03-25T02:30:13-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Admiral Neck</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=919</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			@Redwynd and Stygmata, here's Peter Singer failing to get a word in against Stephen Colbert. Poor guy.

Singer is one of the many philosophers I studied at university whose work I no longer ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[@Redwynd and Stygmata, here's <a href="http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/221466/march-12-2009/peter-singer" >Peter Singer</a> failing to get a word in against Stephen Colbert. Poor guy.<br /><br />Singer is one of the many philosophers I studied at university whose work I no longer remember anything about. All that was left after three years of study was a calmer mind but no memory of the details. I'm glad I did it, but I wish I had absorbed more. The last serious works I have read were Society of the Spectacle and Simulation and Simulacra, but that was more about getting really obsessed with <em >The Matrix</em> and <em >The Invisibles</em> a while back (yes, yes, everyone hates <em >The Matrix</em> for dumbing down those ideas, but as a primer I think the movies work well. Without them I wouldn't have sought out more serious stuff, and I doubt I'm the only one).]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=140762#Comment_140762" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=140762#Comment_140762</id>
		<published>2009-03-25T05:52:17-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Brendan McGinley</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=93</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			Nietzsche: Espouse optimism, blanch at populism. 

He's nature's first hipster.
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[Nietzsche: Espouse optimism, blanch at populism. <br /><br />He's nature's first hipster.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=140791#Comment_140791" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=140791#Comment_140791</id>
		<published>2009-03-25T07:41:39-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Labyrinthine</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5782</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			My problem with eugenics is you never see a proponent of it who puts himself on the list. For... you know, obvious logical reasons, right. But still. It sets off my &quot;you seem a little ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[My problem with eugenics is you never see a proponent of it who puts himself on the list. For... you know, obvious logical reasons, right. But still. It sets off my "you seem a little dodgy" meter. On the other hand, I agree that we have too many people but am unwilling to do anything to help aside from not giving birth (what a sacrifice lol), so it's not like I have high ground on the matter from a practical standpoint.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=140824#Comment_140824" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=140824#Comment_140824</id>
		<published>2009-03-25T11:16:43-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Audley Strange</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4475</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			I tried some Derrida on the recommendation of a friend (I should point out I'm no philosophiser (sic) ) seemed more like a Sophist to me. I'll stick to Mad Germans and Posh Britons.
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[I tried some Derrida on the recommendation of a friend (I should point out I'm no philosophiser (sic) ) seemed more like a Sophist to me. I'll stick to Mad Germans and Posh Britons.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=140970#Comment_140970" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=140970#Comment_140970</id>
		<published>2009-03-25T22:11:52-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>allana</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4019</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			@oga, i'm starting to feel the same way, but am struggling violently against my own ambivalence. my biggest problem is still slotting writers into categories and pitting them against each other - i ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[@oga, i'm starting to feel the same way, but am struggling violently against my own ambivalence. my biggest problem is still slotting writers into categories and pitting them against each other - i might just be impressionable, but they all seem to be saying essentially the same agreeable things in their own dense and convoluted ways. and it just makes me want to put their books down and work in a bakery. i am concerned that philosophy might be simply an admirable but misguided effort by many very intelligent but deluded people who would've been better off homesteading and communing with nature. <br />it especially bothers me reading people who say directly that (Rousseau, Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, pretty much anyone writing about modern capitalism) but offer no evidence in their own lives that they took themselves seriously or even made an effort to give a real, honest, self-sufficient, society-free lifestyle a chance. i mean, most were bogged down in depression or mania, and most came from strange aristocratic backgrounds that meant their only chances to work involved rich patrons... mostly it makes me conclude that these people aren't philosophers, they're just writers, and they didn't believe anything they say, they just wanted to write. the urge to write was stronger than the urge to live a morally just, quiet, and happy life. that's what stops me in my tracks these days.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141054#Comment_141054" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141054#Comment_141054</id>
		<published>2009-03-26T07:56:10-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Redwynd</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=653</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			@Labyrinthine;

I humbly beg to disagree; I'd put people like myself second on the list (right after trailer trash). While my main thrust is the need to prevent the reproduction of the lowest, say, ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[@Labyrinthine;<br /><br />I humbly beg to disagree; I'd put people like myself second on the list (right after trailer trash). While my main thrust is the need to prevent the reproduction of the lowest, say, 60% of humanity in terms of physical capability, mental capability, vulnerability to disease and will (I am a firm believer that the will to achieve is rooted in genetics), there are certainly those in the remaining quotient of society that need to be culled. <br /><br />Take myself, for example. I am, respectfully, highly intelligent, moderately good looking, physically capable and quite resistant to disease and infection (I work in retail and pay no attention to vitamin supplements yet never get sick), as well as attending university while maintaining full-time employment. However, my genetics contain predispositions towards all sorts of addiction, from gambling to drug abuse, schizophrenia, high rates of heart and liver disease, cancer, and a statistically improbably number of birth defects. Simply put, no matter what I may become, genetics puts me before the eugenic firing line.<br /><br />But, more to the point, I do have the courage of my convictions. I am barely into my twenties, have not reproduced, and have had that possibility surgically taken care of. <br /><br />I've not taken offense, though; most of the people who agree with me tend to be self-righteous jackasses. Its sad, in a way. I consider eugenics to be far more forward thinking than, say, egalitarianism, but its rarely three posts between me and a Holocaust reference... (thanks, BTW, Whitechapel, for not jumping down my throat on that).]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141058#Comment_141058" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141058#Comment_141058</id>
		<published>2009-03-26T08:18:56-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>city creed</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4530</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			there are certainly those in the remaining quotient of society that need to be culled. 
brb
FBI

this is the thing with philosophy huh? in abstract terms this sort of thing is very easy to ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[<blockquote >there are certainly those in the remaining quotient of society that need to be culled. </blockquote><br />brb<br />FBI<br /><br />this is the thing with philosophy huh? in abstract terms this sort of thing is very easy to consider. The concrete reality of it is somewhat more unpalatable, for me anyway. Besides, we can see what corruption, malice and incompetence characterises most government operations around the world. I'm not sure I'd trust any power structure with the legal right to determine the survival of an individual's genetic code.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141095#Comment_141095" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141095#Comment_141095</id>
		<published>2009-03-26T10:07:54-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Redwynd</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=653</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			I would certainly agree with you on the general tendency of bureaucracies to mismanage issues that require a delicate touch, particularly in populist governments such as have become the norm in the ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[I would certainly agree with you on the general tendency of bureaucracies to mismanage issues that require a delicate touch, particularly in populist governments such as have become the norm in the West. I'm thinking of issues such as street narcotics and law enforcement. As far as power structures are concerned, I would propose a system of enlightened anarchy, reverting to a tribe-like state, but there are a few issues, both on the positive and negative. I'll get to legality in a moment.<br /><br />The positives are quite easy. Tribes are, typically speaking, a group of like minded or genetically related individuals, who work together in small groups to ensure one another's survival. For the purpose of this discussion, I am emphasizing <em >small</em>. This would create a large number of groups in direct competition for limited resources, using whatever means necessary. Those with the best abilities, and hence genetics, take the resources, and prosper. Those who don't, dwindle. Somewhat counter-intuitively, this would actually promote the survival of our species, forcing individual tribes to adapt to their local environment and competition, through both a survival-of-the-fittest mechanism, and though social and technological innovation (I'm not just throwing technology out the window, after all). You could think of this as crowd-sourcing social structures, perhaps.<br /><br />The negatives to this sort of proposal, discounting the implementation of such a system for now, are trickier. Tribes have a habit of joining with other tribes, or subjugating them, and eventually forming nations. This would bring us back to the situation we're in now, as it would be something of a social arms race, one group having to forcibly grow because one of its neighbors had. Once a nation reaches a certain size, the need for each individual to contribute something up to a certain standard diminishes, and the nation is capable of carrying on simply due to its sheer size. If you want an example of this, you need only look to the U.S.A.; they've been hemorrhaging resources at an ever-increasing rate for the last thirty years, and it still hasn't caught up with them (they're current troubles are based on a purely financial matter, not a physical one). No offense intended to any Americans in the room; I doubt any of you were involved in the trade and development policies currently in practice, so you can hardly be considered at fault. <br /><br />I could imagine some kind of pure meritocracy here, but I'm only beginning to grapple with the problem myself. Perhaps married with the idea of Philosopher Kings, though that seems a little arrogant considering the title of this thread, but its an idea I've been considering. <br /><br />Now, for legalities. To my mind, and admittedly limited knowledge in the area, most modern legal systems, when dealing with lives, are based on two principles: the fundamental right to life, and the essential equality of said lives. Now, by very definition, the latter must be discarded in order for any eugenically-inspired system to work. At its core, eugenics is based on the idea that some lives, or genetic codes, are simply more valuable than others. A mind capable of high-order physics is necessarily more valuable than one barely capable of operating a cash register, after all. As for the former, the fundamental right to life, this is not sustainable. The number of humans on Earth has been increasing exponentially in the last thousand years, with no indication of slowing down. I have seen estimates that the population will reach 9 billion by 2050, and 20 billion by 2100, and I would consider these to be conservative estimates. The resources do not exist to support this many people indefinitely, let alone the numbers we might see afterward. <br /><br />Eventually, we will see a situation where large-scale wars are fought over scare resources, inciting nationalism, racism, xenophobia, and many other social maladies. Even if such wars were to be averted, the pain and suffering of the global population, due to malnourishment and the diseases that crop up in over-crowded situations, would be incalculable. Such problems could be addressed by actions such as China's One Child Policy, but this simply perpetuates the current social order among other issues, and in most Western countries a policy such as this simply would not stand.<br /><br />If people are going to die anyway, do we not owe it to those who came before us to ensure that, at the very least, the best that humanity has to offer survives? I've been accused of a logical fallacy in this last bit, but to me it seems quite clear. We, as a whole, can either allow luck to draw straws for who lives and who dies, or we can use the incredible brains that have brought us to the heights we now enjoy, and attempt to avoid the depths we face. I've no idea how to get from here to there, but I can't see how we can expect to face our future generations with a shred of dignity if we don't.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141103#Comment_141103" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141103#Comment_141103</id>
		<published>2009-03-26T10:40:37-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>city creed</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4530</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			I think you're attributing too much significance to genetics. Behaviours and sets of behaviours which can be understood, emulated and improvised on by what you might refer to as &quot;lesser&quot; ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[I think you're attributing too much significance to genetics. Behaviours and sets of behaviours which can be understood, emulated and improvised on by what you might refer to as "lesser" brains could produce results that are more effective than those achieved through raw and untrammelled genetic superiority. Whatever that's meant to look like. It is our cultural DNA that would benefit most from a little well-intentioned tinkering, not our genome.<br /><br /><blockquote >At its core, eugenics is based on the idea that some lives, or genetic codes, are simply more valuable than others.</blockquote><br />so who decides the relative values?<br /><em >letitbemeletitbemeletitbeme</em><br />or perhaps they are self-evident?]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141117#Comment_141117" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141117#Comment_141117</id>
		<published>2009-03-26T11:29:15-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Solario</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=58</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			I just picked Philosophy as my major and minoring in Communication. Please tell me I've not destroyed the rest of my life.
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[I just picked Philosophy as my major and minoring in Communication. Please tell me I've not destroyed the rest of my life.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141148#Comment_141148" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141148#Comment_141148</id>
		<published>2009-03-26T13:20:37-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>oga</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=3803</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			@Allana

I think that if these philosophers just discussed had had access to people like Yogananda, Nisargadatta, Ramana, etc, they would have realised that their writing was egotic bullshit.  ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[@Allana<br /><br />I think that if these philosophers just discussed had had access to people like Yogananda, Nisargadatta, Ramana, etc, they would have realised that their writing was egotic bullshit.  Their work is ergodic to some extent, but doesn't carry the same resonant &quot;spiritual&quot; charge as does, for example, Yogananda's interpretation of the Gospels. These works give me a real heart-buzz, whereas Nietzsche just gives me a mind-buzz that doesn't stay with me.  I honestly can't remember anything that I've retained from the so-called Western philosophers from Aristotle onwards (except maybe Aristotle's work on theatre and all the ruminations on what constitutes identity, which has helped me understand the machine ego), but of the Eastern &quot;philosophers&quot; (quote marks because really, they seem to be writing &quot;in-spired&quot; works rather than brain farts) I get much more kick and food for thought now than I did from the 'sophers.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141169#Comment_141169" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141169#Comment_141169</id>
		<published>2009-03-26T14:15:06-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Prof Structure</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1583</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			Philosophy Prof here but specialising in philosophy of physics/science in general, so know little of ethics n such. Kinda interested in certain 'continental' philosophers, such as Cassirer and ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[Philosophy Prof here but specialising in philosophy of physics/science in general, so know little of ethics n such. Kinda interested in certain 'continental' philosophers, such as Cassirer and Husserl, before The Big Split but never found anything in  Deleuze et al of much interest.Not sure why philosophy can't be 'egotic bullshit'and still be useful, interesting etc!]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141181#Comment_141181" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141181#Comment_141181</id>
		<published>2009-03-26T14:54:02-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>QuidamTulpa</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2355</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			I've got a little problem with discussing philosophy.  Is this thread just for talking about what others have said and how you interpret their words or is it to discuss philosophy of life as we ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[I've got a little problem with discussing philosophy.  Is this thread just for talking about what others have said and how you interpret their words or is it to discuss philosophy of life as we experience it.  My friends and I have always discussed life, sex society novels comics politics morals religion torture depravity standards etc..., but none of us have formal training in philosophy.  I understand the education of people in such things but is formal education required to discuss philosophical views?]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141185#Comment_141185" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141185#Comment_141185</id>
		<published>2009-03-26T15:16:05-07:00</published>
		<updated>2009-03-26T15:16:30-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Verissimus</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=3379</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			Monty Python was right, Socrates really could drink everyone under the table.

Philosophy has a precarious place in our society, bashed from one side by modern science and from the other by ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[Monty Python was right, Socrates really <em >could</em> drink everyone under the table.<br /><br />Philosophy has a precarious place in our society, bashed from one side by modern science and from the other by religion. The impression I got from what few philosophy lectures I followed in university was that both the students and the teachers got hopelessly stuck in their arguments, which seemed to miss a direction or a purpose.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141209#Comment_141209" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141209#Comment_141209</id>
		<published>2009-03-26T16:23:44-07:00</published>
		<updated>2009-03-26T16:25:58-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Finagle</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5254</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			@QuidamTulpa - 

I personally would like it if this were Philosophy with a big &quot;P&quot;, involving academic-level discussion referencing some sort of primary work or author to at least show ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[@QuidamTulpa - <br /><br />I personally would like it if this were Philosophy with a big "P", involving academic-level discussion referencing some sort of primary work or author to at least show you've bothered to do your homework.   We don't have mods on here as such aside from the Big  Two, though, so you're free to do as you like.  <br /><br />@Solario - <br /><br />Look, @Prof Structure has a job!<br /><br />@allana -<br /><br />That is something that the French '68 movement was supposed to have addressed, directly.  "Under the street - the beach!" and all that.  It is an excellent question whether all the blood and treasure spend on ink spilled about it since then has actually advanced the cause of practical human freedom since then.  There is a lot of stuff in Foucault that directly raises this as a question with stakes; I'd like to post some later for discussion perhaps.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141239#Comment_141239" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141239#Comment_141239</id>
		<published>2009-03-26T18:50:25-07:00</published>
		<updated>2009-03-26T19:48:35-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>dkostis</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2538</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			Here’s a philosophy discussion seed offered by my girlfriend, from work in her PhD. dissertation.

A lot of people think that equality is valuable in and of its self and the dominate theory in ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[Here’s a philosophy discussion seed offered by my girlfriend, from work in her PhD. dissertation.<br /><br />A lot of people think that equality is valuable in and of its self and the dominate theory in political philosophy is based on this idea, the dominate theory being egalitarianism.<br /><br />So my question is, is equality inherently valuable? And if so, why do you think it is inherently valuable?<br /><br />One reason to think it’s not inherently valuable is that if you think equality is valuable then you should be willing to bring everyone down to the level of the person who is worst off in society in order to achieve it.<br /><br />Edited after Angela corrected my grammar.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141246#Comment_141246" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141246#Comment_141246</id>
		<published>2009-03-26T19:22:37-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>oga</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=3803</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			There's an interesting theory that has been discussed at some time or another by all thinkers:  no one can be equal because qualities are not equally distributed and there is a pyramid-type structure ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[There's an interesting theory that has been discussed at some time or another by all thinkers:  no one can be equal because qualities are not equally distributed and there is a pyramid-type structure to qualities where there are few saintly humans, or geniuses and a lot of stupid, and malicious humans.  I find that discussing egalitarianism with this in mind tends to turn people off the theory and focus on the reality.  <br /><br />David Hawkins uses reflexology to obtain some remarkable results.  I am fully of the belief that this reflexology technique should be used to determine what philosophers should be taught, and whose work should be discarded as the addled ruminations of an addict (to words, drugs, philosophies, etc) . . .]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141249#Comment_141249" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141249#Comment_141249</id>
		<published>2009-03-26T19:59:44-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>city creed</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4530</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			David Hawkins uses reflexology to obtain some remarkable results. I am fully of the belief that this reflexology technique should be used to determine what philosophers should be taught, and whose ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[<blockquote >David Hawkins uses reflexology to obtain some remarkable results. I am fully of the belief that this reflexology technique should be used to determine what philosophers should be taught, and whose work should be discarded as the addled ruminations of an addict (to words, drugs, philosophies, etc) . . . </blockquote><br /><br />I'm torn between falling foul of Poe's Law and not wanting to be obnoxious but are you sincerely suggesting that we can discard people's ruminations, addled or no, on the basis of a reaction to a reflexology technique?]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141251#Comment_141251" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141251#Comment_141251</id>
		<published>2009-03-26T20:06:13-07:00</published>
		<updated>2009-03-26T20:09:03-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>dkostis</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2538</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			To clarify, the previous question is about MORAL equality. Nobody is disputing that we are unequal from a physical standpoint. Some of us are stronger, some are weaker, some are taller ,some shorter, ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[To clarify, the previous question is about MORAL equality. Nobody is disputing that we are unequal from a physical standpoint. Some of us are stronger, some are weaker, some are taller ,some shorter, etc. <br /><br />The way this relates to political equality is, if there is an unequal distribution of goods  and this unequal distribution is not a result of anybody’s efforts, should we redistribute these goods so that everybody is equal even if that means that nobody will have enough?<br /><br />We realize that this slightly changes the nature of the original question but the idea is that if we think equality is inherently valuable than we should strive for equality even at great cost.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141304#Comment_141304" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141304#Comment_141304</id>
		<published>2009-03-27T01:56:08-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>oga</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=3803</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			@citruscreed

Ha! You're right, I'm saying that philosophy (as in the &quot;Canon&quot; of western philosophy) may as well be subject to this sort of thing because it means so little to me after ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[@citruscreed<br /><br />Ha! You're right, I'm saying that philosophy (as in the &quot;Canon&quot; of western philosophy) may as well be subject to this sort of thing because it means so little to me after digesting a substantial chunk of it over the last 15 years. <br /><br />I can't claim to be able to use the reflexology test, but why go on and on about some aspect of this or that as if it is objectively true when it is the subjective opinion of the author?  <br /><br />Coming back to the subject of moral equality. As long as one person is not equal, no one is equal. Why not give people the &quot;tools to the kingdom&quot; as it were, and teach them to think for themselves instead of reading screed after screed of philosopher after philosopher.  All these words, and no one is enlightened!]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141372#Comment_141372" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141372#Comment_141372</id>
		<published>2009-03-27T07:35:14-07:00</published>
		<updated>2009-03-27T07:51:22-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Labyrinthine</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5782</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			@Redwynd - higher physics has not helped our species survive. Higher physics is a RESULT of our species' survival, and notably one that would not have occurred under a tribal structure. The beautiful ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[@Redwynd - higher physics has not helped our species survive. Higher physics is a RESULT of our species' survival, and notably one that would not have occurred under a tribal structure. The beautiful thing about a connected-up world like ours is that simple geographic proximity does not limit our social connections, and we can increasingly self-organise based on interest and intuitive connection. Of course that sort of organisation can become insular as well, but arguably no more so than the simple village.<br /><br />Which brings me to back to my problem with eugenicsh, or at least with the two versions of it you're talking about: the one in which we go beyond permanent birth control to actual death and the one where it's not voluntary. I was originally referring to the fact that anyone who truly understands that we have more resources than people and truly believes in remedying this by losing the people would probably commit suicide post-haste (possibly preceded by some random serial homicide), hence removing themselves from the gene/meme-pool and preventing a true eugenic philosophy from flourishing.<br /><br />But the MACRO point behind that was that anyone who DOES NOT adhere to that view is performing a value judgement concerning which lives should go, or at least which lives should go FIRST, just like you've done there, putting yourself second. It does not matter which person or organisation is implementing the eugenic policy, SOMEBODY will have to make the judgement. They ARE going to divide the population into groups of some sort. And they are HIGHLY UNLIKELY to say "well, reduce each group by thirty percent on a voluntary followed by random lottery basis" which means some group is going to get the short end of the stick and frankly I do not trust ANYBODY with that sort of power. NO EXCEPTIONS.<br /><br />Uhh I got a little carried away with the caps there :P but my final point:<br /><br />Humanity's strength is not in its PHDs, or its Mother Theresas, or its captains of industry or inspiring leaders or able-bodied genetic-illness-free individuals or teachers or nurses or farmers or entrepreneurs or sysadmins or psychologists or musicians or madmen or comedians or janitors or transients or fishermen or florists.<br /><br />Humanity's strength is in ALL OF THESE. Our most adaptable trait is our adaptability, both as individuals and as a species, and that means the key to our survival is diversity. The more different kinds of people flourish in times of feast, the better the odds that some of those kinds will be equipped for the famine. And yes, we do need to take steps to stop the time of famine from enveloping the whole world, but if those steps involve a "culling" then random lottery is not only the only fair method, it is also the best thing for the whole group's survival.<br /><br />[/endrant]<br /><br />(PS: in the end I don't believe we could ever take the kill-one-third-of-our-population route. The psychological impact on the survivors might be as crippling as the resource-drain we're presently facing, don't you think? Random-lottery permanent birth control is an idea, but you may have underestimated the psychological impact of THAT on people assigned to it non-voluntarily, not to mention the logistic nightmare of performing it worldwide.)]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141391#Comment_141391" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141391#Comment_141391</id>
		<published>2009-03-27T08:16:42-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>allana</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4019</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			why not free sterilizations coupled with financial incentives (immediate or long-term, in the form of yearly bonuses or tax sheltering)? or the elimination of child- and family-based welfare systems? ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[why not free sterilizations coupled with financial incentives (immediate or long-term, in the form of yearly bonuses or tax sheltering)? or the elimination of child- and family-based welfare systems? wouldn't those be enough tiny steps to revolutionize procreation in western/first-world countries, and wouldn't that be enough to change our policies on immigration, and wouldn't that be enough to create an impact on third-world country populations and standards of living?]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141398#Comment_141398" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141398#Comment_141398</id>
		<published>2009-03-27T08:27:04-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Thom B.</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2248</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			Birth rates are already on their way to drop below replacement rates in the developed world where financial incentives for sterilization could be implemented so it's a moot point.  The best remedy ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[Birth rates are already on their way to drop below replacement rates in the developed world where financial incentives for sterilization could be implemented so it's a moot point.  The best remedy for over population is longer life expectancy and increased standards of living.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141406#Comment_141406" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141406#Comment_141406</id>
		<published>2009-03-27T08:46:14-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>allana</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4019</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			i don't think it is. i live in welfare-neighbourhood in downtown Toronto. there's still a whole ton of people below the poverty line that would benefit from it, that would be able to be nice and ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[i don't think it is. i live in welfare-neighbourhood in downtown Toronto. there's still a whole ton of people below the poverty line that would benefit from it, that would be able to be nice and selfish about their own futures and potentials if it weren't for a teenage pregnancy and subsequent fall into the family welfare state. <br /><br />sometimes i really enjoy imagining urban centres that are completely child-free, where the only influx of population is people 16 and over, strictly for purposes of post-sec. education, culture, and the workforce. i even like to imagine that people who have children would (willingly or by law) move to a rural place for the duration of the childrearing.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141475#Comment_141475" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141475#Comment_141475</id>
		<published>2009-03-27T14:13:03-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Audley Strange</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4475</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			@ Dkostis. The only way I think one could consider equality as &quot;inherently valuable&quot; as you put it, is to consider that value itself is objective, which I don't agree with. There may be an ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[@ Dkostis. The only way I think one could consider equality as "inherently valuable" as you put it, is to consider that value itself is objective, which I don't agree with. There may be an argument from a utilitarian standpoint about the worth or benefit of equality within a system, however such arguments head into the very divisive territory of rabid ideologues, knee jerk reactionaries and value free emotive responses which have perpetually framed most of the debate on either side.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141504#Comment_141504" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141504#Comment_141504</id>
		<published>2009-03-27T15:25:11-07:00</published>
		<updated>2009-03-27T15:26:46-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>doclivingston</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2318</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			Dkostis is framing the question of equality's value incorrectly anyway.should we redistribute these goods so that everybody is equal even if that means that nobody will have enough?Of course not.  No ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[Dkostis is framing the question of equality's value incorrectly anyway.<blockquote >should we redistribute these goods so that everybody is equal even if that means that nobody will have enough?</blockquote>Of course not.  No one ever argues that, because we're all supposed to be intelligent enough to recognize that, whenever egalitarianism is argued for, a baseline (<em >good</em>) quality of life for everyone is implicit.  Nobody argues for a society of equally oppressed or equally starving and impoverished people.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141506#Comment_141506" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141506#Comment_141506</id>
		<published>2009-03-27T15:31:03-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>city creed</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4530</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			yep, I had it pegged as a straw man too.
I think we're supposed to knock it down with the argument that a little carefully managed inequality can act as a useful incentive.
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[yep, I had it pegged as a straw man too.<br />I think we're supposed to knock it down with the argument that a little carefully managed inequality can act as a useful incentive.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141527#Comment_141527" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141527#Comment_141527</id>
		<published>2009-03-27T17:39:48-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>dkostis</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2538</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			@Audley Strange

 I agree that for the most part to talk about something as inherently valuable is to imply that it has objective value. Egalitarians, though, do seem to talk about it in this way ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[@Audley Strange<br /><br /> I agree that for the most part to talk about something as inherently valuable is to imply that it has objective value. Egalitarians, though, do seem to talk about it in this way which is something that I find strange. Talk of equality has a great deal of rhetorical force and I'm trying to figure out if there is anything substantive behind it. I suspect that when we talk about equality we are talking about a whole host of other values that fall under the umbrella of equality but are actually distinguishable from equality in such a way that equality itself seems to be doing little work.<br /><br />What I find particularly interesting about utilitarianism is that it actually seems to adopt a principle of equality as an axiom which is not in need of further justification since it takes equal consideration of interests as foundational. The fact that few people have objected to this aspect of utilitarianism suggests that, whether equality is in fact objectively valuable or not, people assume that it is.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141532#Comment_141532" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141532#Comment_141532</id>
		<published>2009-03-27T18:03:09-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>dkostis</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2538</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			@doclivingston

It's true that there are sophisticated (and more interesting) versions of egalitarianism that offset this problem by adopting other principles (Rawls is the obvious name that comes ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[@doclivingston<br /><br />It's true that there are sophisticated (and more interesting) versions of egalitarianism that offset this problem by adopting other principles (Rawls is the obvious name that comes to mind) but at the heart of egalitarianism is the view that equality is inherently valuable and that it takes priority over other values. My problem with these views is that the other values do all the work. For instance, you might take the view that equality is important but so is utility, so we should aim for equality unless doing so would make everyone worse off. But when you take this pluralistic approach, there will be times when your principles conflict. So now you have to decide whether equality is going to take priority over utility, or whether utility is going to take priority over equality. If you say that utility should take priority over equality, then you're really just a utilitarian since you think utility is the primary value. If you say that equality should take priority, then you run into the problem that I originally suggested, i.e. you pursue equality even if everyone will be worse off.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141537#Comment_141537" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141537#Comment_141537</id>
		<published>2009-03-27T18:20:46-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>dkostis</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2538</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			@citruscreed

The problem that I described could, I suppose, be taken as a straw man argument (although it was really meant as a question rather than an argument) but what I had hoped for was to ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[@citruscreed<br /><br />The problem that I described could, I suppose, be taken as a straw man argument (although it was really meant as a question rather than an argument) but what I had hoped for was to get peoples' thoughts on what is taken to be a significant problem with egalitarianism in the academic literature. We seem to value equality as a desirable social goal rather than as a means to achieving other goals. Now I have no problem with someone saying that equality is pragmatically useful, i.e. we should pursue equality in order to achieve the social goals that we really desire (for instance, that everyone has enough resources to support themselves) but this isn't what egalitarians are talking about. They take equality to be the social goal itself and if you take that stance then it doesn't seem like you can avoid the counterintuitive cases like the one that I presented (which is a worst case scenario but one that needs to seriously be considered). <br /><br />I'm not quite sure what you mean when you say "a little carefully managed inequality can act as a useful incentive." Could you clarify?]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141551#Comment_141551" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141551#Comment_141551</id>
		<published>2009-03-27T18:59:22-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Finagle</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5254</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			@dkostis (et al):

. Now I have no problem with someone saying that equality is pragmatically useful, i.e. we should pursue equality ...

I think there's some confusion here as to whether you ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[@dkostis (et al):<br /><br /><blockquote >. Now I have no problem with someone saying that equality is pragmatically useful, i.e. we should pursue equality ...</blockquote><br /><br />I think there's some confusion here as to whether you (and others) are using equality as an <em >a priori</em> condition of humanity, or a <em >post facto</em> attribute of actual circumstances.   This of course isn't a new controversy in philosophy, but I thought it would be helpful to highlight it.<br /><br />What is equality?  Do we believe and affirm that all persons are created equal, and it is circumstances that makes them unequal?  Or the opposite?   Are we talking equality of circumstances, opportunity, worth...?]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141558#Comment_141558" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141558#Comment_141558</id>
		<published>2009-03-27T19:33:53-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>dkostis</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2538</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			@stygmata

I'm not quite sure how the a priori/post facto distinction relates to the discussion. Perhaps you could clarify?

As for what equality is, there are really two kinds of questions that ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[@stygmata<br /><br />I'm not quite sure how the a priori/post facto distinction relates to the discussion. Perhaps you could clarify?<br /><br />As for what equality is, there are really two kinds of questions that you have asked. The first, where you ask whether all persons are created equal and their circumstances make them equal is a question about what we mean when we talk about equality. We can't mean that everyone is equal in any material or physical sense since that would be false so we must be talking about moral equality, i.e. that people have equal moral status. The implication at the political level is that we must find a way to distribute resources that takes into account this equal moral status.  When there are inequalities in the distribution of resources, and these inequalities are not the result of peoples' effort or lack of effort, then taking into account their moral status as equals means distributing resources so that everyone has an equal share. The second kind of question is about which goods are to be distributed. What I'm interested in is most closely related to the first type of question. If we take people to be morally equal, does that necessarily mean that political equality is the primary principle governing how to distribute goods? If so, you again seem to run into this problem of distributing resources equally even though that means no-one has enough.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141568#Comment_141568" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141568#Comment_141568</id>
		<published>2009-03-27T20:25:05-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>city creed</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4530</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			I'm not quite sure what you mean when you say &quot;a little carefully managed inequality can act as a useful incentive.&quot; Could you clarify?

Simply that uniform equality of access to ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[<blockquote >I'm not quite sure what you mean when you say "a little carefully managed inequality can act as a useful incentive." Could you clarify?</blockquote><br /><br />Simply that uniform equality of access to resources eliminates competition. Competition is the driving force of our economy, or so they say. It depends on people being able to amass more gold than their neighbours. It depends on the ever-present spectre of poverty at the feast. Without these, why go to work in the morning? <br />Of course, inequality must be managed somewhat, fosters resentment otherwise, threatens stability.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141587#Comment_141587" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141587#Comment_141587</id>
		<published>2009-03-27T22:35:35-07:00</published>
		<updated>2009-03-27T22:38:31-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>doclivingston</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2318</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			You still sound like you're going out of your way to create a problem with egalitarianism, dkostis.  Why exactly does it create conflict for someone to believe that equality is of supreme importance, ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[You still sound like you're going out of your way to create a problem with egalitarianism, dkostis.  Why exactly does it create conflict for someone to believe that equality is of supreme importance, but enforcing equally shitty lives on a populace would be a bad thing?  It goes back to what I originally pointed out: nearly every philosophy is seeking out an ideal way of life or ideal society, including any egalitarian mode of thinking, and having everyone live like shit ain't ideal.  You think you've caught out a conflict in the thinking with your line of questioning but it's contrived.  There's no actual cognitive dissonance there, you just want to insist an egalitarian has to be ridiculously enslaved to the ideal or else they're conflicted and inconsistent, but insisting that doesn't make it true.<br /><br />I believe in democracy, I think it's the closest to ideal we can get in the current world, but crazily enough I don't think a democracy populated solely with idiot voters would make for a good society.  I don't know why a dyed-in-the-wool socialist would jump at the chance to redistribute property equally in a situation that forces objectively shit circumstances on everyone, either.  It's like if I asked a person if they liked money.  After they say yes, I offer them five dollars if they let me shoot them in the foot.  THEN, when they say "no, that's retarded" I go "AHA!  So you DON'T like money!"<br /><br />Which of course is a leap and doesn't prove anything.  We presuppose certain things when considering what we value.  I value social equality.  But again, it would be ridiculous to expect me to say I'd approve of everyone in society being equally oppressed.  Obviously.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141628#Comment_141628" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141628#Comment_141628</id>
		<published>2009-03-28T03:42:47-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Finagle</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5254</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			@dkostis - 

Option 1, &quot;a priori&quot; -  whether we are to regard 'equality' as something inherent in our notion of what it is to be human - in an Aristotelean sense of 'featherless biped' ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[@dkostis - <br /><br />Option 1, "a priori" -  whether we are to regard 'equality' as something inherent in our notion of what it is to be human - in an Aristotelean sense of 'featherless biped' and as enshrined in statements such as "all men are created equal".  <br /><br />Option 2, "post facto" - whether equality is merely to be regarded as an attribute of existence that depends on the stuff you actually have. <br /><br />Obviously there are different senses of what constitutes "equality" as it is enacted in a democratic society.  But it is somewhat inherent to the notion of a democracy that individual have equality of opportunity and equality before the law, in a sense that does not depend on whether they are literally equal in terms of attributes and outcomes.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141630#Comment_141630" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141630#Comment_141630</id>
		<published>2009-03-28T04:09:24-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Verissimus</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=3379</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			Equality is an abstract concept which is difficult to apply to society. It may never exist as as reality but it is possible to strive for equality in certain instances. Equal opportunities, equal ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[Equality is an abstract concept which is difficult to apply to society. It may never exist as as reality but it is possible to strive for equality in certain instances. Equal opportunities, equal rights, etc.<br /><br />Also "equal" is not the same as "identical." Equal status doesn't necessarily mean people should be treated identically.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141635#Comment_141635" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141635#Comment_141635</id>
		<published>2009-03-28T05:17:27-07:00</published>
		<updated>2009-03-28T05:18:23-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Audley Strange</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4475</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			@Dkostis. I could certainly not say that the concept of utility itself would lead one to consider equality as an principle let alone an axiom though you could be correct in so far that some who ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[@Dkostis. I could certainly not say that the concept of utility itself would lead one to consider equality as an principle let alone an axiom though you could be correct in so far that some who consider themselves Egalitarian or Utilitarian may consider it so. I merely meant to suggest that one should look at varied research and examples and attempt to draw a conclusion from that. Do systems where people are treated equally in the eyes of the law flourish more than systems that are not? I don't know the answer to that because there are many ways in which a totalitarian system could be as or more successful than say a democratic one and vice versa. <br /><br />I think if one has an a-priori belief in Egalitarianism or Fascism, in Keynsian Economics or Free Trade or Communism or what have you, as being the prime solution, then one often filters out information that does not fit with ones assumptions.  The consequences of which lead to ideological lines being drawn on in the sand. I see such idealism as being, both the cause of the conflicts and difficult to debate with since it is comparative to religious faith in so far as things like fact and evidence are easily discarded.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141643#Comment_141643" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141643#Comment_141643</id>
		<published>2009-03-28T07:42:47-07:00</published>
		<updated>2009-03-28T07:55:39-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Labyrinthine</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5782</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			@allana that still has slightly unsavoury class/race implications, in that financial incentive systems are always going to be overbalanced in the direction of the disadvantaged and the oppressed ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[@allana that still has slightly unsavoury class/race implications, in that financial incentive systems are always going to be overbalanced in the direction of the disadvantaged and the oppressed groups in society. And of course there's the fact that forced sterilization of the poor, mentally ill and/or POC has occurred on multiple systemic levels in the very recent past. <br /><br />I think what needs to be done as far as sterilization goes is a destigmatisation of the process for it to actually be available to people who WANT it without having to go through sixteen different psychiatrists, because I have heard several people complain that they've always known they didn't want children and yet just because they're under thirty everyone thinks they're crazy sluts doing something they're going to regret. It's all part of the pro-choice value-system to me, the idea that your body and your reproductive future are yours to do as you please with, which is pretty much exactly why any sort of coercion is going to compromise the whole deal, and history suggests that any significant financial incentive is functionally identical to coercion for a certain subset of society.<br /><br />Also eliminating child/family based welfare would be a) massively destabilising b) yet another roadblock in the path of feminism c) completely ineffective given that people used to have thirteen-child families back when nobody had even heard of the word welfare and d) horribly unfair to the children in question.<br /><br />@Audley Strange depends on what you mean by flourish. It's certainly possible, indeed probable, for a totalitarian system to be more EFFICIENT than a democratic one, to accumulate more gross wealth, definitely to have a better army, but... well, honestly I think by conflating equality and democracy you're missing the point of democracy. It wasn't invented to be <em >efficient</em>, it's at heart Government By Argument. It was invented to shield against tyranny. It's the imperfect remedy to the Power Corrupts axiom. Whenever a supreme ruler, or a tiny group of rulers, has all the power, it's inevitably going to be abused. (is anybody sensing a cynical theme in my posts? :P) Democracy's sole actual purpose is to temper the power of the leader with a codified system for getting rid of him if he goes bad. Equality is not actually objectively tied to this, they only go hand in hand because the same type of people tend to believe in both of them.<br /><br />@dkostis You're blurring two different definitions of equality. There is the equality we strive for, and then there is the equality that <em >is</em>. On one level, we recognise that some people's circumstances are inhumane relative to the rest of our society and we want to do what we can to close that gap. By the other definition, which is the one you say you're talking about, we simply believe that no one human life/condition is worth more than any other, and no amount of claiming otherwise actually changes that. This one always causes difficulties where utilitarianism pops up for the obvious reason that we <em >do</em> value one life over another, we do it all the time. My personal belief is that there doesn't have to be a conflict there if we simply remember that those judgements do not have an objective status and are purely personal, so that we have more right to apply them the closer to home the issue is. (Moral absolutists have some... <em >issues</em> with that concept, but that's okay because I have some issues with moral absolutists.)<br /><br />So when you talk redistribution of goods, the problem is the way we're sliding from the second definition into the first. You're trying to migrate the absolute <em >fact</em> of moral equality to the idea that anyone with an egalitarian philosophy wants an absolute <em >outcome</em> of circumstantial equality. Now, for all I know you may have talked to some Capital E Egalitarians who really believe that, but frankly I've never met one. The practical application of egalitarianism boils down to a basic standard of living, and access to opportunities for going above the basics, that everyone ought to have.<br /><br />"taking into account their moral status as equals means distributing resources so that everyone has an equal share" is basically missing the point. In any case it's impossible to have an equal share of anything except a large pile of cash, because nothing else divides mathematically - any particular thing you distribute is going to have a different value to different people. What's a plumber or a CEO going to do with a canvas and paint? And a large pile of cash isn't going to <em >stay</em> distributed. So you're talking in the purely theoretical world that philosophy often slips into, and just assuming that your opponents are trying to apply that theory wholesale. Trust me, after what happened to the USSR, nobody's really that dumb. We're in give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day territory here.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141648#Comment_141648" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141648#Comment_141648</id>
		<published>2009-03-28T08:20:33-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Audley Strange</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4475</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			@ Labyrinthine. I also have issues with Absolutism. However with regards to flourishing, I would discuss this in terms of both economic success and social welfare. Potentially, it seems to me, a ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[@ Labyrinthine. I also have issues with Absolutism. However with regards to flourishing, I would discuss this in terms of both economic success and social welfare. Potentially, it seems to me, a benign dictatorship <em >could</em> be more beneficial to its populous in both these terms than a top down representative democracy that is bloated and overtly corrupt, which seems to be, if we are honest about it, the most likely form of democracy that one could have. I'm not so certain that power corrupts as much as I am that individuals themselves are almost entirely self interested which could be construed as corrupt, it seems to me that what power does is act as an attractor for that self interest or corruption.<br /><br />Since you say that we do value one life over another (again, self interest, which I agree is self evident) then it does not seem much of an extrapolation to me to suggest that what most people wish for is "equality" for themselves, even at the expense of others. I think personally that men create Noble Ideas which are in themselves neutral, but are created with the intent to benefit their in-group primarily and if there is a potential for them to benefit out-groups secondarily then that's just luck but it is not required.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141656#Comment_141656" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141656#Comment_141656</id>
		<published>2009-03-28T09:10:47-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>dkostis</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2538</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			@ citruscreed

Thanks for the clarification. In a sense the view that you proposed is a pragmatic one. Equality might be useful in order to achieve other socially desirable goods, such as steadily ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[@ citruscreed<br /><br />Thanks for the clarification. In a sense the view that you proposed is a pragmatic one. Equality might be useful in order to achieve other socially desirable goods, such as steadily increasing the standard of living, and when equality conflicts with that goal then we tolerate inequalities. I agree with that view but the dominant view in political philosophy (at least in the literature that I have read) is that equality is paramount. For these egalitarians, equality is the end goal and I'm trying to get a sense of why people think equality is <em >the</em> socially desirable good. They think it is so important that when equality conflicts with another of our values, liberty, equality should still trump. Obviously I'm painting egalitarianism with some pretty broad strokes but I wanted to get a general feeling of what people think without going into specifics about who said what.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141658#Comment_141658" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141658#Comment_141658</id>
		<published>2009-03-28T09:32:54-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>dkostis</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2538</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			@stygmata

Okay, I understand what you're saying. Things like opportunities and equality before the law are still viewed as goods to be distributed even though this is obviously an awkward way to ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[@stygmata<br /><br />Okay, I understand what you're saying. Things like opportunities and equality before the law are still viewed as goods to be distributed even though this is obviously an awkward way to talk about it. There are still questions about whether equality is the goal here. Take opportunity as an example. What would it mean to say that peoples' opportunities are equal (especially when they don't have access to equal resources)? More importantly, do we really care about people having <em >equal</em> opportunities (in whichever way we end up making sense of this idea)? My view is that equality isn't actually important, what matters is that people have <em >enough</em> opportunity to live the kind of lives they find fulfilling. I think this applies to tangible resources as well. What matters isn't that everyone have equal amounts of money but that people have enough money to live the lives they find satisfying. <br /><br />Unfortunately, I am not well versed in Continental Philosophy at all so if you know any Continental Philosophy that deals with equality (both political and moral) I would be interested to hear it.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141667#Comment_141667" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141667#Comment_141667</id>
		<published>2009-03-28T10:06:20-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>dkostis</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2538</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			@doclivingston

Why exactly does it create conflict for someone to believe that equality is of supreme importance, but enforcing equally shitty lives on a populace would be a bad thing?

Well, if ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[@doclivingston<br /><br /><blockquote >Why exactly does it create conflict for someone to believe that equality is of supreme importance, but enforcing equally shitty lives on a populace would be a bad thing?</blockquote><br /><br />Well, if you say something is of supreme importance then you say that it is more important than anything else. What else can you mean by “supreme importance”? If you think that democracy is the supremely important social goal then contingent facts about the stupidity of the voters are irrelevant. The ideal of democracy is independent of the degree to which people are stupid. If you think that democracy is pragmatically useful, then you think that it is useful only insofar as it allows you to meet other goals that are more important. Whatever those other goals are, you take those to be the most important. So you might say that people living decent lives is the most important goal. If equality or democracy will lead to everyone having a worse life, then that conflicts with the goal that you take to be most important, namely that everyone has a decent life, and you drop your pursuit of equality.<br /><br /><blockquote >It's like if I asked a person if they liked money. After they say yes, I offer them five dollars if they let me shoot them in the foot. THEN, when they say "no, that's retarded" I go "AHA! So you DON'T like money!"</blockquote><br /><br />To match your example to what you say earlier, it would have to be more like this:<br />I ask a person if money is of <em >supreme importance</em>  to them and they say yes. I offer them $5 if they let me shoot them in the foot. THEN, when they so “no, that’s retarded” I go “AHA, so money is NOT of <em >supreme importance</em> to you!” <br /><br />Stated this way, I think <em >it is </em>fair to say that the person who says no to being shot in the foot, does not supremely value money. Clearly that person thinks that his or her welfare is more important than money and that just means that money is not of supreme importance.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141670#Comment_141670" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141670#Comment_141670</id>
		<published>2009-03-28T10:20:06-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>dkostis</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2538</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			@Arjan Dirkse

I agree that equality is difficult to apply but my question is really about whether it is the right ideal. Is it important to strive for equality, or is it just important to ensure ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[@Arjan Dirkse<br /><br />I agree that equality is difficult to apply but my question is really about whether it is the right ideal. Is it important to strive for equality, or is it just important to ensure that everyone has enough in order to live a fairly decent lives? “Having enough” is obviously vague and could apply to just the basic resources but I think very few people feel that their lives would be satisfying if they just had the basic resources. So I think that “having enough” should mean basic economic resources plus some basic social goods such as at least a minimal amount of preventive health care, access to education and so on. The reason that I think equality is not the goal is that it is essentially comparative, you’re constantly comparing what you have to what others have. Shouldn’t the concern just be that we have enough to live lives that are satisfying to us?]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141677#Comment_141677" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141677#Comment_141677</id>
		<published>2009-03-28T10:44:05-07:00</published>
		<updated>2009-03-28T11:21:48-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>dkostis</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2538</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			@Audley Strange

Do systems where people are treated equally in the eyes of the law flourish more than systems that are not?
Well, many people think that equality should be valued even if systems ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[@Audley Strange<br /><br /><blockquote >Do systems where people are treated equally in the eyes of the law flourish more than systems that are not?</blockquote><br />Well, many people think that equality should be valued even if systems where people are <strong >NOT </strong>treated equally flourish more than systems <strong >WHERE PEOPLE ARE TREATED EQUALLY</strong>. And this is what I take to be the heart of the conflict. Your approach is to say that if equality doesn’t make our lives better according to some definable standard then we shouldn’t pursue equality. I am sympathetic to that approach. However, someone who thinks that equality is important in itself might say something like the following (which is a purely hypothetical case): Let’s say that our society is one in which overall, the standard of living is much higher than the standard of living elsewhere. Let’s say further that the sole difference between our society and the others that are worse off than ours is that in our society women get paid less than men. Isn’t there something to be said for wanting to pursue equal pay even though that means that our society would overall be worse off?<br /><br />I realize that the real world is much more complicated than this but I think that is precisely why we need to be clear about what we value in the simple and hypothetical cases like the one I describe. If we can make sense of what we value in the simple cases, then we have some way of approaching the much more complicated real world cases.<br /><br />I don’t think that egalitarians take their emphasis on equality to be a conceptual truth, i.e. an <em >a priori</em> belief. They do think that there are good reasons to believe in equality and these reasons either have to do with fairness or rationality. Both of these approaches are quite similar. An appeal to fairness would be that we only treat people differently if there is a <em >morally significant</em> reason for doing so. An appeal to rationality would appeal to the notion of treating like cases alike (something that we do in scientific inquiry). Again, the idea is that you treat like cases alike unless you have <em >morally significant</em> reasons for doing otherwise. Either way, it is quite different from religious faith since an egalitarian is going to be willing to listen to arguments about whether “x” (where for x you can substitute any difference between individuals from hair colour to gender) is a morally significant reason.<br /><br /><strong >NOTE</strong>: The first sentence has been corrected.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141684#Comment_141684" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141684#Comment_141684</id>
		<published>2009-03-28T11:17:16-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>dkostis</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2538</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			@ Labyrinthine

You're blurring two different definitions of equality. There is the equality we strive for, and then there is the equality that is. On one level, we recognise that some people's ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[@ Labyrinthine<br /><br /><blockquote >You're blurring two different definitions of equality. There is the equality we strive for, and then there is the equality that is. On one level, we recognise that some people's circumstances are inhumane relative to the rest of our society and we want to do what we can to close that gap. <br /></blockquote><br /><br />First of all, I don’t think there is any equality that <em >just is</em> when we’re talking about morality and politics. Secondly, I did actually make a distinction between two different kinds of equality, moral and political, and it’s hard to deny that they are connected. If you think that political equality is valuable in itself, then presumably you think this because you believe in moral equality. Now you might not believe that political equality is valuable in itself but if you don’t think of political equality as inherently valuable it’s because you think that some other social or political good is more valuable. Political equality is then just a means to some further end. Egalitarians, in taking equality to be inherently valuable, take equality to be the ends and I’m trying to figure out why they would hold that view. When you say “we recognise that some people’s circumstances are inhumane relative to the rest of our society and we want to do what we can to close that gap,” you’re suggesting that equality is the goal that we should be striving for. I’m asking, why is that the goal that we should strive for? Shouldn’t we just be concerned with everyone having enough, rather than how much someone has relative to anyone else? For egalitarians, this relational quality is important. What matters is how your goods compare to everyone else’s goods. My view is that your goods should not be compared to someone else’s good but should be evaluated in terms of the kind of life that would be satisfying to you.<br /><br />The implication of striving for equality is that equality is, in some sense, objectively valuable. I think that by evaluating your goods with respect to your own life and your own welfare, regardless of how much more someone else might have, you really do avoid any problems with having to posit objective values.<br /><br /><blockquote >My personal belief is that there doesn't have to be a conflict there if we simply remember that those judgements do not have an objective status and are purely personal</blockquote><br /><br />If you’re striving for equality, you do think equality is objectively valuable. You can’t really strive for equality on your own (it's not even clear what it would mean to do so since bringing about equality necessarily involves other people), so you need a political system that creates policies with the aim of bringing about equality. That means that you don’t just think equality is just valuable for you, but that others should value it as well.<br /><br /><blockquote >You're trying to migrate the absolute fact of moral equality.</blockquote><br />I find it strange that you argue against moral absolutism and moral objectivity and then claim that there is an absolute fact about moral equality. How are these views consistent?]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141694#Comment_141694" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141694#Comment_141694</id>
		<published>2009-03-28T12:13:11-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>dkostis</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2538</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			Some of you have suggested that I'm overemphasizing the importance that egalitarians place on equality and given the initial case that I presented I can see why someone would think that because it ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[Some of you have suggested that I'm overemphasizing the importance that egalitarians place on equality and given the initial case that I presented I can see why someone would think that because it does seem so extreme. Egalitarians do, however, take this to be a compelling objection to their views which suggests that they don't think of this case as misrepresenting those views. In fact, many egalitarians are much more extreme than that case suggests. Philippe Van Parijs in his article "Why Surfers Should be Fed: The Liberal Case for an Unconditional Income" suggests equality even applies to such institutions as marriage in the sense that, when male partners are scarce (say in times of war) women should have an equal share in the eligible bachelors. How does this work given that bachelors are indivisible goods? Well, if you get married, you then have to reimburse all the women who had a share in this bachelor and who are thereby unable to get married. If we have to go this far in pursuit of equality, then I hardly think it misrepresents egalitarians to say that they value equality above all other values. <br /><br />Ronald Dworkin, a famous political and legal philosopher, has argued that inequalities that are not deserved generate feelings of envy which result from perceiving the situation as unfair. In the original example that I used, where goods are distributed equally even if that makes everyone worse off, how do you distribute goods so that no one feels envious? Since everyone seems to think this example is so extreme, let me pose the question a different way. Let's say that you have 10 units of a particular resource necessary for survival, and there are 10 people, each of whom need 1.5 units of the available resource in order to survive. If you distribute the goods equally, then everyone dies. But how do you <em >fairly</em> distribute the goods given that there aren't enough to go around? Is there any way to distribute the goods so that everyone thinks the distribution is fair? Egalitarians think that equality is the only fair way to distribute goods so in this case it looks like they're forced to say that we should distribute the goods so that each person only gets 1 unit and each dies. You can forgo fairness but then how do you justify that decision to the person who gets nothing?]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141776#Comment_141776" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141776#Comment_141776</id>
		<published>2009-03-28T17:31:03-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>doclivingston</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2318</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			You're still generalizing, exaggerating, and largely speaking only to an extremist, literalist approach to the egalitarian ideal.  Makes it irrelevant.  No matter WHAT philosophy or ideology you want ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[You're still generalizing, exaggerating, and largely speaking only to an extremist, literalist approach to the egalitarian ideal.  Makes it irrelevant.  No matter WHAT philosophy or ideology you want to discuss, there are easily conjectured scenarios where a person that espouses those ideas will abandon them because of clear rational problems.  The 10 units/10 people scenario is only a useful thought experiment to divine at what point a person will compromise their ideals because of conditions.  It's also the same experiment one would use to see what it takes for someone to overcome the taboo of cannibalism.  This is, again, not a 'gotcha' moment where you're finding holes in anyone's thinking, but you keep pretending it is.  It is only a measure of how irrational and extremist one might be.  Unless you want to be an absolutist about things, and insist that everyone forever follow through with their stated ideals no matter how deleterious that behavior would be.<br /><br />Which is fine.  But useless.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141816#Comment_141816" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141816#Comment_141816</id>
		<published>2009-03-28T20:08:36-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>dkostis</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2538</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			@doclivingston

You've clearly misunderstood the intent of my posts. I wasn't trying to catch anyone out, I'm asking a question. At first the question was: would anyone continue to advocate ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[@doclivingston<br /><br />You've clearly misunderstood the intent of my posts. I wasn't trying to catch anyone out, I'm asking a question. At first the question was: would anyone continue to advocate equality when the consequences would be disastrous. Since most people seemed to think that we should give up the ideal of equality in that case it clearly wasn't fruitful to continue trying to have a discussion on why someone would hold a view that no one thought they would hold. My second question, for which I used the 10 units/10 people thought experiment, was this: since most people think we wouldn't hold onto our ideal of equality when the consequences of doing so would be bad, how would they justify another course of action. This is a case where it seems the only <em >fair</em> approach is to advocate equality even <em >though</em> it has disastrous consequences. Since no one wants to defend equality in this kind of scenario, what other approaches could be fair? All I'm looking for is a <em >discussion</em> on what people think about equality.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141894#Comment_141894" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141894#Comment_141894</id>
		<published>2009-03-29T02:03:51-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Labyrinthine</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5782</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			@dkostis if you don’t think of political equality as inherently valuable it’s because you think that some other social or political good is more valuable. Political equality is then just a means ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[@dkostis <blockquote >if you don’t think of political equality as inherently valuable it’s because you think that some other social or political good is more valuable. Political equality is then just a means to some further end.</blockquote> There are actually options aside from "most important thing" and "means to an end" - it's entirely possible to believe that multiple values, such as for example equality, freedom and stability, which are neither entirely opposed to each other nor entirely congruous, have a more or less equal importance in that you might wish to focus on one more than another at a particular time, but you ideally want to have all of them. No one of those is a "means to an end" of any of the others. We want to have all of them. That's why we have a PROBLEM when two of them conflict with each other in a given circumstances. Sometimes we are forced to choose, and in that case we may find we believe in one more than another, but that doesn't make the other unimportant - it's like having to choose between two of your children. It's at heart a <em >tough choice</em> and one you hope not to have to make precisely BECAUSE they are both so <em >inherently valuable</em>. There is no egalitarian who holds equality as the sole measure of worth in society - all it means to call yourself an egalitarian is that if forced at gunpoint to choose between your two kids, stability and equality, you think you'll choose equality, without suggesting you're going to feel less than horrible about sacrificing stability.<br /><br /><blockquote >What matters is how your goods compare to everyone else’s goods.</blockquote> Nobody is talking about goods. See the last bit of my post. There is no way to apply egalitarianism to distribution of goods on a macro scale and I would like to see your references if you believe anybody is seriously suggesting that. We're talking about <em >access to opportunities</em>. which is what I meant by "some people's circumstances are inhumane relative to the rest of our society." I didn't mean some people don't have a computer chair as cool as mine :P I meant some people don't have access to basic schooling.<br /><br /><blockquote >I find it strange that you argue against moral absolutism and moral objectivity and then claim that there is an absolute fact about moral equality. How are these views consistent?</blockquote> Sorry about that, I used your term "moral equality" and it muddied the waters as I wasn't really talking about moral actions there. I believe my views are consistent because I don't think people's "moral equality," by which I simply mean the lack of objective value of one person over another, needs to be the basis of your moral value system. Sure, there's no OBJECTIVE difference between human lives, but I think subjective differences are relevant to our morals simply because there are many circumstances in which it is impossible or impractical to base our decisions on the objective equality of humanity.<br /><br />...I think possibly we're getting some dissonance here becuse you're talking essentially about public policy while I am giving equal weight to personal decisions?]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141898#Comment_141898" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141898#Comment_141898</id>
		<published>2009-03-29T02:22:47-07:00</published>
		<updated>2009-03-29T02:24:15-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Labyrinthine</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5782</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			@dkostis oh, sorry, missed your post about Parijs and Dworkin. Any relation to Andrea Dworkin? I have to say that unless you are grossly misrepresenting those writers' views I actually basically ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[@dkostis oh, sorry, missed your post about Parijs and Dworkin. Any relation to Andrea Dworkin? I have to say that unless you are grossly misrepresenting those writers' views I actually basically agree with you. Yes, those examples are utterly ludicrous. However as I said above you cannot dismiss equality as a "means to an end" simply because some ivory-tower theorists have painted big red <em >reductio ad absurdum</em> targets on their foreheads for you. I think egalitarianism is a significant value to most of us - just because it's not the ONLY value we hold does not imply that it is actually in service to some other value. There is simply no such thing as one value that can govern an entire moral value system. That is a concept more ludicrous than bachelor compensation.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141899#Comment_141899" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141899#Comment_141899</id>
		<published>2009-03-29T02:31:50-07:00</published>
		<updated>2009-03-29T02:34:34-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Labyrinthine</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5782</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			@Audley Strange benign dictatorship could be more beneficial to its populous in both these terms than a top down representative democracy that is bloated and overtly corrupt What you're basically ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[@Audley Strange <blockquote >benign dictatorship could be more beneficial to its populous in both these terms than a top down representative democracy that is bloated and overtly corrupt</blockquote> What you're basically saying is that the best dictatorship is better than the worst democracy. Okay, sure, there is overlap at that end. But I would argue that <em >statistically speaking</em> it is simply <em >easier</em> for any given self-interested leader to exercise their self interest when they are a Dictator as opposed to a Prime Minister. You can't impeach a dictator, nor does tyranny have a term limit. Dictatorships change hands in blood, and your benign dictatorship would basically last until the death of the benign dictator. At which point there is nothing <em >systemic</em> to stop an UNbenign dictator from taking over.<br /><br />In the end it's easier to combat corruption in a democracy than to behead your supreme ruler every second generation or so.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141933#Comment_141933" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=141933#Comment_141933</id>
		<published>2009-03-29T07:56:46-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Audley Strange</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4475</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			@Dkostis.

Well I appreciate your example on gender based wage imbalance is hypothetical, however I would suggest that even if such were the case one would have to take into account a vast amount ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[@Dkostis.<br /><br />Well I appreciate your example on gender based wage imbalance is hypothetical, however I would suggest that even if such were the case one would have to take into account a vast amount of variables that were the cause and result of such an imbalance.  However, I would say that yes there could be something to be said for attaining equal wages in this example, what could be said would be "evidence points to a decrease in both economic growth and social welfare". Do I think in such a case it should be something to strive for? No, though I can certainly appreciate that those who do not think they are "getting their fair share" would disagree, since again self interest most often over-rides social conscience (I am not saying this is wrong as such, but I do think it goes some way to explaining some of the problems that Idealists of all ilks have when attempting to fit lots of different shaped pegs into their one neat hole). At such a point that the wages were made equal more people would suffer as a consequence, including those who demanded equal pay, however it would seem to me that this new set of problems would only be addressed by another ideal solution which had other problems and the original issue would not even be up for discussion.<br /><br />And round and round it goes...<br /><br />@ Labyrinthine.<br /><br />Not much I would disagree with there, though I would have to say I think the amount democratically elected leaders who have been impeached, assassinated, removed by "popular revolution", exiled or left in disgrace, leads me to suspect there is not much difference between the positions. Also I think corruption may well be endemic to any system of leadership and as such I don't think it can be combated at all. The main difference seems that when a tyrant is caught it is expected when a democratically elected leader is caught he is replaced with another who is all but isomorphic.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=142387#Comment_142387" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=142387#Comment_142387</id>
		<published>2009-03-31T02:21:07-07:00</published>
		<updated>2009-03-31T03:54:08-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Labyrinthine</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5782</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			@Audley Strange - I guess the point is that they HAVE been impeached, exiled or left in disgrace. A dictator stays there until a stronger dictator comes along, and the hand-over habitually involves ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[@Audley Strange - I guess the point is that they HAVE been impeached, exiled or left in disgrace. A dictator stays there until a stronger dictator comes along, and the hand-over habitually involves bloodshed, whereas a democratic leader only sometimes gets killed or "popular uprising"ed. Besides this, democracies (and I'm not counting Democracies In Name Only here) usually have a decent level of freedom of the press and internal oversight, and if not then methods for CREATING same without having guys with big sticks show up at your door.<br /><br />I just think it's pretty useless to say "corruption cannot be combated" therefore we shouldn't even try. Yes, corruption is endemic to any system of leadership - that's what I meant by referencing Power Corrupts. But it is possible to have greater and lesser volumes of corruption, to reduce the harm caused by corruption, and in this case democratic systems are much more flexible than most others.<br /><br />PS I didn't even touch dkostis's wage inequalities example, since there's no logical way two countries identical except for a wage inequality could even exist, but if they did I highly doubt that it's the less equal one would be better off. Taking the principle behind it instead of the ludicrous example, I think that public policy treating people equally is good <em >for a reason</em> and not just directly because people are inherently equal - it's good for morale and it's good for law and order. So any sort of conflict of that nature is highly unlikely to exist.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=142485#Comment_142485" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=142485#Comment_142485</id>
		<published>2009-03-31T10:42:58-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Audley Strange</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4475</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			@ Labyrinthine. 

Sure, I see your point, though perhaps you missed the one overt act of democracy which is that most dictators are generally removed by the populous and military (unless you are ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[@ Labyrinthine. <br /><br />Sure, I see your point, though perhaps you missed the one overt act of democracy which is that most dictators are generally removed by the populous and military (unless you are saying that Democracy is a tyranny of the people, which I could go for.)  We are straying close to a political rather than philosophical discussion here which while I am interested in continuing somewhat, does seem a derail. <br /><br />I appreciate a lot of what you say makes sense from the specific ideological perspective of fairness and accountability, it is not one I myself have any faith in or really see evinced in practice since I think what we consider democracy is part of a very narrow narrative which at best is akin to a popularity competition. I say this as one who became utterly jaded while political canvassing during the eighties. I'm afraid I'll always accept my anecdotal yet empirical evidence over theoretical Noble Idea.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=142509#Comment_142509" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=142509#Comment_142509</id>
		<published>2009-03-31T12:08:19-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>city creed</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4530</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			Equality can still be crowbarred onto the 10 hungry mouths in the example. Somebody mentioned lotteries earlier. Equality of opportunity in action...
But it's hardly satisfying. Trying apply an ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[Equality can still be crowbarred onto the 10 hungry mouths in the example. Somebody mentioned lotteries earlier. Equality of opportunity in action...<br />But it's hardly satisfying. Trying apply an abstract concept like equality in concrete terms is always going to lead to arbitrarily ruthless lines being drawn.<br /><br />@Audley Strange<br />Corruption in democracies is moderated by the existence of a free press, and independent police and judiciary; all of these are incentivised to seek out and expose corruption.<br />I'm not sure what a benign dictatorship would look like in a modern context (outside of WC of course) but I doubt it would tolerate any of those 3 things.<br />I don't think this has to be an ideological position, it is a practical response to a complex, endemic problem.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=142605#Comment_142605" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=142605#Comment_142605</id>
		<published>2009-03-31T18:22:16-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Audley Strange</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4475</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			@ Citruscreed.

I would imagine ideally that would be true. However I'm not so sure that the police and judiciary are as independent in most democracies as some might think. In the U.K. for example ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[@ Citruscreed.<br /><br />I would imagine ideally that would be true. However I'm not so sure that the police and judiciary are as independent in most democracies as some might think. In the U.K. for example both are highly politicised in certain areas and could give quite a few serious examples of that from the last 9 years alone, also since both are also centres of power, one could argue that they themselves are corrupt. But I still don't see how an <em >ideal</em> democracy is inherently better than any other ideal system of government.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=142712#Comment_142712" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=142712#Comment_142712</id>
		<published>2009-04-01T05:47:20-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Labyrinthine</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5782</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			@Audley Strange removed by the populace and military... and when you say removed you mean executed, often along with all their retinue. Now i am not saying that is not a fitting end to some regimes ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[@Audley Strange removed by the populace and military... and when you say removed you mean executed, often along with all their retinue. Now i am not saying that is not a fitting end to some regimes but it's the principle of the thing. Having an official GTFO mechanism reduces bloodshed. Dictatorships usually... don't have those.<br /><br />I think what we consider democracy and what we accept in lieu of democracy are different things. Yes, many of our attempts at it suck, maybe we need a better run-up. But saying "fine then let's just have a dictatorship and hope the guy in charge is nice" is essentially giving up. I guess you have been understandably disillusioned with our fumbled democracies but I assume you have never lived in a dictatorship? I haven't either, not when I was old enough to remember it, but I grew up on old USSR stories. I mean that wasn't quite a dictatorship as per spec, more of a faux-communist bureaucratic oligarchy type thing, but I'm just saying. I believe that trying to be a democracy is important even when we fail. "Fail again, fail better."<br /><br />(Personally I wouldn't have a problem with a constitutional monarchy or any number of various alternatives to strictly REPRESENTATIVE democracy - it's the basic point of it that's more important than strict adherence to any one execution.)<br /><br />...aaand you're right we should really bring this tangent to a close and get back to the philosophy :P but philosophy when put into practice is always either personal morality or public policy, and public policy inevitably involves politics.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=142736#Comment_142736" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=142736#Comment_142736</id>
		<published>2009-04-01T08:29:21-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>MarshallQuicksand</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5306</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			Has objectivism been subject to any extensive writing since it's conception?

If so, by whom, and which of them would you wonderful 'Chapelites reccommend? If you could, stick only to those ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[Has objectivism been subject to any extensive writing since it's conception?<br /><br />If so, by whom, and which of them would you wonderful 'Chapelites reccommend? If you could, stick only to those writings that don't pervert Miss Rand's brainchild. <br /><br />Please and thank you.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=142893#Comment_142893" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=142893#Comment_142893</id>
		<published>2009-04-01T18:29:54-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Audley Strange</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4475</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			Okay back to philosophy...

Noumena, can someone with some knowledge explain to me why this isn't just Kant rationalising the meaningless into a conceptual set in order to try and sound clever?
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[Okay back to philosophy...<br /><br />Noumena, can someone with some knowledge explain to me why this isn't just Kant rationalising the meaningless into a conceptual set in order to try and sound clever?]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=143712#Comment_143712" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=143712#Comment_143712</id>
		<published>2009-04-05T09:45:06-07:00</published>
		<updated>2009-04-05T09:46:17-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Finagle</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5254</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			@Audley Strange:

Depends - do you want the metaphysical answer, or the pragmatic answer? 

Metaphysically speaking, Kant was able to establish the certainty of sense-perception again by both a) ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[@Audley Strange:<br /><br />Depends - do you want the metaphysical answer, or the pragmatic answer? <br /><br />Metaphysically speaking, Kant was able to establish the certainty of sense-perception again by both a) positing the 'noumenal' world, but b) also stating that it lies entirely outside not only perception, but knowledge.  It avoids the entire issue of what the "thing in itself" actually is when nobody's looking at it, which really was the clever bit about it.  The basic Kantian insight on perception is that <em >the world must behave as we perceive it seems to in order to exist</em>.  Kant attacked the radical empiricist skeptics - David Hume is the usual example - who claimed that the world is just a jumble of perceptions that we string together by habit and circumstance, and more importantly, that we have no logical basis for believing they might not be different tomorrow. <br /><br />Sunrise is the usual example.  On David Hume's account, we perceive sunrise as a bundle of perceptions and infer based upon that ("Glow, red, ball - oh, the sunrise").  On Hume's account, though, we have no reason to believe the sun will rise tomorrow aside from the fact that it has always happened every day.   Since all we have are perceptions, and cannot know what the "real" world is like in itself aside from those perceptions, we have nothing but the "constant conjunction" of events ("Sun come up, it gets light and hot, Sun goes down, it gets dark and cold").  <br /><br />Pragmatically speaking, Kant posted that we don't perceive individual sensations - we perceive a world.  We don't see light, feel heat, see a disc and say "Sun!" - We see the Sun, and grasp it as such as given by the world.   How can we trust this?  Because this is simply how the (phenomenal) world must behave for there to exist rational beings.  A world where the Sun arbitrarily did not rise tomorrow would make rationality impossible - yet, we have rationality, so the phenomenal world must be *constructed by our brains* according to logical rules before it is presented to consciousness.  Is the Sun "real"?  Sure, as real as anything else you might perceive.  Our pragmatic phenomenal perception is adequate to our needs to function as rational beings who live in a physical world-system, and this must by necessity be predictable and logical because our minds have ordered it that way. <br /><br />The noumenal world?  Kant really just tosses that in there to give God a place to live.  This is a cop-out, but it becomes important for the formulation of his ethics down the line, and also keeps him from getting his head cut off.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=143748#Comment_143748" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=143748#Comment_143748</id>
		<published>2009-04-05T13:22:38-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Prof Structure</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1583</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			@Stygmata - bit dismissive of the noumenal there! I'm no kant scholar but I thought he needs it in the ethics, for example, to underpin the claim that we are both free (our noumenal selves) and ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[@Stygmata - bit dismissive of the noumenal there! I'm no kant scholar but I thought he needs it in the ethics, for example, to underpin the claim that we are both free (our noumenal selves) and determined (phenomenal). And in his metaphysics so he can establish transcendental idealism. There has to be the noumena else  ‘we should be landed in the absurd conclusion that there can be appearance without anything that appears’. Its the noumena that affects us, but not causally of course. And then you have the whole 'are these two worlds or two standpoints' debate. <br />But as I say, no Kant scholar me ....]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=143767#Comment_143767" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=143767#Comment_143767</id>
		<published>2009-04-05T15:23:13-07:00</published>
		<updated>2009-04-05T15:24:54-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Finagle</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5254</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			@Prof Structure - 

No, you're correct textually - and I did refer to it being important later in his ethics, but I do think he can do without it.     I have a sort of idiosyncratic reading of Kant ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[@Prof Structure - <br /><br />No, you're correct textually - and I did refer to it being important later in his ethics, but I do think he can do without it.     I have a sort of idiosyncratic reading of Kant that follows Deleuze and Foucault, who see Kant's work as absolutely radical but hobbled by a crippling reliance on the metaphysical.  The general idea is that Kant didn't carry out the notion of critique far enough, falling back on the positing of the Ideas of Reason too early and easily and without considering that Reason may have itself a phenomenal existence, history and politics. <br /><br />I would like to go on more about this later, but suffice it to say that I think you can turn the Transcendental Idea of Reason into the immanent, pragmatic ideas of rationality without losing too much and while keeping most of what was truly radical about Kantian ethics.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=143791#Comment_143791" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=143791#Comment_143791</id>
		<published>2009-04-05T17:38:52-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Audley Strange</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4475</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			@ Stygmata.

Thank you for a superb reply. However would you not agree that positing a concept of &quot;that which is unknowable&quot; may be tantamount to saying &quot;that which has no ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[@ Stygmata.<br /><br />Thank you for a superb reply. However would you not agree that positing a concept of "that which is unknowable" may be tantamount to saying "that which has no meaning?". Can't we just disregard such a metaphysic on the grounds that it appears to be literally useless? I ask this because it does seem that the concept of noumena can be abused in so far as claiming any supposition or knowledge about that which Kant defined as "unknowable" looks to me to be futile. How can we know that there are things that are unknowable? I suggest we cannot and so it seems to me like a weird and paradoxical linguistic trick.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=143796#Comment_143796" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=143796#Comment_143796</id>
		<published>2009-04-05T17:50:32-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Scribe</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=904</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			I am a solipsist.  Thus, this conversation really isn't happening - except for in my mind.
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[I am a solipsist.  Thus, this conversation really isn't happening - except for in my mind.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=143805#Comment_143805" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=143805#Comment_143805</id>
		<published>2009-04-05T18:42:59-07:00</published>
		<updated>2009-04-05T18:45:25-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Audley Strange</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4475</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			Cool, then your mind is now telling you to shut up and you are very foolish.

(Refuting the position rather than flaming.)
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[Cool, then your mind is now telling you to shut up and you are very foolish.<br /><br />(Refuting the position rather than flaming.)]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=143825#Comment_143825" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=143825#Comment_143825</id>
		<published>2009-04-05T19:24:35-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Scribe</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=904</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			Nah, I like talking to myself.  I get lonely quite easily - especially since I am the only one here.
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[Nah, I like talking to myself.  I get lonely quite easily - especially since I am the only one here.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=143894#Comment_143894" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=143894#Comment_143894</id>
		<published>2009-04-06T07:49:32-07:00</published>
		<updated>2009-04-06T07:51:45-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Labyrinthine</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5782</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			I agree with you, Audley Strange. Unproveable stuff like God (or, you know, insert metaphysical concept here) can always be swept aside by saying okay, they MIGHT exist, if we have no proof either ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[I agree with you, Audley Strange. Unproveable stuff like God (or, you know, insert metaphysical concept here) can always be swept aside by saying okay, they MIGHT exist, if we have no proof either way, but honestly, who cares? If the world+god is identical to the world as is, which it must be otherwise there would somewhere be proof in the form of something that could not exist without god, then the whole concept of god is as you say, useless/irrelevant. Invisible pink elephant territory.<br /><br />However, I feel that whole perspective is actually based on an OVER reliance on the "real" in the phenomenal category - or rather the generalisation from properties of the MAJORITY of real things (dimension, sense-ability, etc) to the concept of the category real/phenomenal as a whole. The word phenomenal is actually better, and implies that Kant did have an understanding of "realness" which was essentially defined by a thing's capacity to affect other things. But that whole conversation then wanders over to the <em >more real</em> side of the phenomenal category, which imposes further restrictions such as dimension onto ALL "real things".<br /><br />Technically speaking there is NOTHING that is not real. That is, the thing in itself does exist, but our perception/concept of it <em >is also</em> a thing which exists (which I think Kant was sort of getting at, so I'm not sure why he posited an unreal category in the first place), albeit as a second-order "thing" (this does create a bit of a recursion issue) - but our concepts <em >do not require</em> "real" objects, that is, one CAN have a first-order concept - such as god. Whether or not such a thing as god actually exists, the thing that is our idea of god does not rely on a "realer" thing which actually IS god. It can spring merely from the essential question behind Creationism - here's all this stuff, I wonder if somebody put it there. Now we have a concept of a Somebody who is capable of creating literally everything, completely irrelevant of that somebody's actual existence. Of course it can also come from a story somebody else tells us, which I suppose is a thing in itself - more recursion going here, but at this point Things become like Time in that splitting cause and effect into the smallest possible intervals is more or less impossible with complex systems.<br /><br />(As a fairly sporadic dabbler in philosophy texts I am terrible with references. I feel like I lifted a couple of those concepts from a philosopher other than Kant but I can't remember which one - can anyone think of someone it resembles?)]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=144037#Comment_144037" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=144037#Comment_144037</id>
		<published>2009-04-06T20:38:20-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Audley Strange</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4475</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			@ Labyrinthine. You seem to be on the same track as me somewhat. I often think that it would suit  actual philosophers better to discuss &quot;what is&quot; first and sort that out before reaching ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[@ Labyrinthine. You seem to be on the same track as me somewhat. I often think that it would suit  actual philosophers better to discuss "what is" first and sort that out before reaching into the nebulous ideas of "what might be" and inventing all sorts of concepts or discussing imagined inventions of other philosophers in those terms. Like Noumena, Searle's Qualia also seems to be one of those ideas that is an unquantifiable presumption.<br /><br />I'm not trying to dismiss these concepts out of hand simply because I am a hard line materialist, I am not, but I do often think that many of these types of rarified conceptualisations are little more than tricks, which remind me of Crowley's story about the mongoose.<br /><br /><em ><br />"There is the story of the American in the train who saw another American carrying a basket of unusual shape. His curiosity mastered him, and he leant across and said: "Say, stranger, what you got in that bag?" The other, lantern-jawed and taciturn, replied: "Mongoose". The first man was rather baffled, as he had never heard of a mongoose. After a pause he pursued, at the risk of a rebuff: "But say, what is a Mongoose?" "Mongoose eats snakes", replied the other. This was another poser, but he pursued: "What in hell do you want a Mongoose for?" "Well, you see", said the second man (in a confidential whisper) "my brother sees snakes". The first man was more puzzled than ever; but after a long think, he continued rather pathetically: "But say, them ain't real snakes". "Sure", said the man with the basket, "but this Mongoose ain't real either".</em>]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=144445#Comment_144445" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=144445#Comment_144445</id>
		<published>2009-04-08T11:34:37-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>icelandbob</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5250</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			I am interested in philosphy but this is sort of how my wife sees it. Can´t argue her on it alas...


		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[I am interested in philosphy but this is sort of how my wife sees it. Can´t argue her on it alas...<br /><br /><img src="http://4.media.tumblr.com/GZbqLZ3AXlfcsgn6zqs6Ge6xo1_500.jpg" alt="The evolution of philosophy" >]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=144482#Comment_144482" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=144482#Comment_144482</id>
		<published>2009-04-08T14:04:46-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Charlene</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4463</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			did any philosopher ever figure out the meaning of life? any ever argue they had worked it out? just wondering...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[did any philosopher ever figure out the meaning of life? any ever argue they had worked it out? just wondering...]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=147661#Comment_147661" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=147661#Comment_147661</id>
		<published>2009-04-18T20:45:43-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Finagle</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5254</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			Propose new topic:  Risk-taking and morality

Assume that one is in a situation where taking a risk may result in hazard or cost to others and has a possible negative impact on the community as a ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[Propose new topic:  Risk-taking and morality<br /><br />Assume that one is in a situation where taking a risk may result in hazard or cost to others and has a possible negative impact on the community as a whole. For instance, take mountain climbing as an example.  If there's a dedicated team of mountain rescuers who have to risk themselves to save you if you get stuck.  If you take a risk that requires them to also put themselves at risk or incur great expense to rescue you, is that behavior immoral?<br /><br />Now take something more general, such as health.  If society is subsidizing the cost of your health care, does it then become a moral obligation to remain as healthy as possible?  Does that in turn make behaviors such as smoking, drinking, or not eating right immoral because of the potential impact on society?]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=147892#Comment_147892" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=147892#Comment_147892</id>
		<published>2009-04-20T05:57:30-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Audley Strange</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4475</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			Only if you have an objective stance where morality is concerned. I'd go further and say that almost every action a human can undertake can potentially result in hazard to others. I'd even go so far ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[Only if you have an objective stance where morality is concerned. I'd go further and say that almost every action a human can undertake can potentially result in hazard to others. I'd even go so far to say that actions should be considered only amoral unless willfully committed to cause detriment.<br /><br />Really though your question seems to boil down to a simpler one. "Is Selfishness immoral?" and I think most people would say yes (<em >but only others selfishness</em>)]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=147896#Comment_147896" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=147896#Comment_147896</id>
		<published>2009-04-20T06:26:47-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>city creed</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4530</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			Does that in turn make behaviors such as smoking, drinking, or not eating right immoral because of the potential impact on society? 
There is a pretty strong argument that smokers are in fact ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[<blockquote >Does that in turn make behaviors such as smoking, drinking, or not eating right immoral because of the potential impact on society? </blockquote><br />There is a pretty strong argument that smokers are in fact benefiting society. They pay more tax throughout their life, they die younger so end up drawing less of whatever pension they may have accumulated and whatever costs their healthcare might incur are offset by the fact that they are unlikely to need as much in the way of residential care in the late evening of their lives. But it has nothing to do with philosophy. Sorry.<br /><br /><blockquote >"Is Selfishness immoral?" and I think most people would say yes (but only others selfishness) </blockquote><br />I actually read that as "Is Selfishness immortal?" first time round, for which I don't think there would be any argument. <br />But doesn't this just come back to the idea of enlightened self-interest? If I offer to babysit for some friends, or take their dog for a walk or whatever, I don't expect any actual material reward for it. But it can still be seen as making sense to a selfish person - my rep with my friends goes up so they may be more likely to respond more positively to me in future when I draw on them while they're asleep or somesuch. I buy social credit with an apparently altruistic action. You can say this is a hopelessly cynical way to view human interaction if you like but I reckon it'll still be true.<br /><br />Selfishness is surely inherent on some level. Our distant ancestors most likely wouldn't have survived to breed without it. I'm with @Audley that amoral is a better way to think of most human behaviour. I kinda think that part of the reason why government is there is to moderate the effects of selfishness getting out of hand, something they've not been particularly good at of late.<br /><br />I've long thought that ppl who go mountain climbing without proper preparation and get into some sort of jam requiring the use of helicopters and search dogs to extricate them are just macho idiots. Selfish, yes, but mainly idiots.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=147940#Comment_147940" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=147940#Comment_147940</id>
		<published>2009-04-20T10:31:08-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Audley Strange</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4475</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			@ Citruscreed.

I wouldn't say it was cynical at all, I'd say you were optimistic, considering you can't know your friends would consider your actions as something worth reciprocating, in fact they ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[@ Citruscreed.<br /><br />I wouldn't say it was cynical at all, I'd say you were optimistic, considering you can't know your friends would consider your actions as something worth reciprocating, in fact they could (I'm not saying they would) see you as a gullible dupe whom is easy to exploit (if they were deeply selfish and cynical). We can never really know peoples personal motivations and what we as individuals assume is some form of "social contract" may not be regarded as such by others. I know a few people who <em >expect</em> everyone they know to take their turn in looking after their brats especially family and close friends and attempt to guilt them into doing so. They could consider that looking after their kids is part of a "social contract"  So it is a real minefield of an area.<br /><br />Actually with regards to the specific mountain wandering idiots. I'm sure you know Citrus that EVERY fucking year here in Scotland, some dipshit tries to hike up Ben Nevis in January in flip flops, with a tesco bag containing some cheese sandwiches and a spare baseball cap in case it gets cold. I don't think they are actively being selfish, but I do think, after seeing it happen year in year out, there may be a case for deterring them by charging them something for rescue.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=148404#Comment_148404" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=148404#Comment_148404</id>
		<published>2009-04-22T05:38:59-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>city creed</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4530</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			@Audley Strange:
they could (I'm not saying they would) see you as a gullible dupe whom is easy to exploit
those sly bastards, I knew it.

and yeah, I had those exact Ben Nevis hiking idiots in ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[@Audley Strange:<br /><blockquote >they could (I'm not saying they would) see you as a gullible dupe whom is easy to exploit</blockquote><br />those sly bastards, I knew it.<br /><br />and yeah, I had those exact Ben Nevis hiking idiots in mind. Charging them for their rescue would seem like a reasonable response to me but then I guess we get into difficulties if they can't pay. Would Search and Rescue have to check their insurance status before they scrambled the whirlybirds? Ick.<br /><br />I've been classified before as "a stubborn and compulsive risk-taker" myself but I'd question whether the propensity to take risks is always selfish. There are plenty of risks I could take that would be to the benefit of other people but as I sorta touched on before, providing a benefit to other people could also have a pay-off for me.<br /><br />I guess maybe the key here is about who bears the cost of the consequences of risk-taking. If I am the only one to face the music when a gamble fails, how is that selfish? When I do something daft that requires other people to invest time and energy to dig me out then that surely is selfish, even if my intentions were good. Maybe you could say that, owing to the interconnectedness of individuals in any social environment, anything that costs me personally is bound to impact on others due to my decreased ability to contribute to the common good, whether that be through injury, poverty or whatever else. <br /><br />Sorry @Stygmata, I don't have the formal background in capital P Philosophy to set these ideas in the context of a broader philosophical debate which I know is what you had intended for this thread, but I enjoy playing with the ideas.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=148416#Comment_148416" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=148416#Comment_148416</id>
		<published>2009-04-22T06:22:06-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Vermilious</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5442</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			I hate to do this in the middle of a great topic, but I've got a quick question of looking for more resources/ideas

So Hegel proposed that all of history is just the spirit of freedom working ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[I hate to do this in the middle of a great topic, but I've got a quick question of looking for more resources/ideas<br /><br />So Hegel proposed that all of history is just the spirit of freedom working itself out using humans as a canvas. I know that to some degree this is an oversimplification, but for the purposes of this idea, it seems to work. He also says, rather vehemently, that we don't have ideas. Ideas have us.<br /><br />Has anyone ever considered that Hegel is just teaching memetics?<br />Thoughts? Ever seen this idea brought up before?]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=148678#Comment_148678" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=148678#Comment_148678</id>
		<published>2009-04-23T02:20:17-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Audley Strange</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4475</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			@Citruscreed. But do you feel morally obligated?  Stygmata points out the usual targets in such a discussion, Mountain Climbing, smoking, drinking, diet.  However what about Driving? Consider the ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[@Citruscreed. But do you feel morally obligated?  Stygmata points out the usual targets in such a discussion, Mountain Climbing, smoking, drinking, diet.  However what about Driving? Consider the pollutants. Consider the number of car accidents and injuries to pedestrians, roads and motorways built over green belts. Does that mean that someone who drives a car is immoral?  What about children? Consider that most people do not pay enough taxes for their childrens inoculations, various health issues in development, social welfare and schooling let alone the risk that children spread lots of communicable diseases, are morally blank, and can do the most appalling things to others children and do not contribute. Does that mean that having children in immoral?  I know people who think YES! But they are sanctimonious and seem to belong to a far fringe of the ecology movement who long for Rousseau's archaic revival and are quite happy to promote the eradication of most of our species, yet don't practice what they preach and seem to me far more immoral when they start talking about "culls".<br /><br />(BTW. I'm not accusing Stygmata of this, not at all.)<br /><br /><br /><br />@ Vermilious. <br /><br />I don't think that's memetics Hegel is promoting but religious mysticism. Frankly Dawkins idea was a nice analogy but like most analogies doesn't bear close scrutiny. The "Ideas have us" thing also seems to me not to bear up to close scrutiny either, since it relies heavily on unquantifiables. Don't get me wrong, I have often thought (in a sci-fi manner) that if the net becomes aware it will download all out intelligences into it and leave a bunch of bewildered naked apes, but what Hegel seems to be getting at is the concept of us being spirit vessels. However at that point we have to start inventing other planes and soon get muddied into a kind of infinite regression.  (V.S. Ramachandran's thoughts on mirror neurons are somewhat interesting in this respect)<br /><br />Not exactly new, but unless one is a Y.E.C. The facts don't seem to bear it out. Our ideas evolve because we do, because we have complex symbolic language systems in which information can be passed to others. To separate them into  pantheism or animist concepts may seem romantic, but for all intents and purposes I'd say, pointless.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=148685#Comment_148685" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=148685#Comment_148685</id>
		<published>2009-04-23T04:04:04-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>city creed</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4530</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			@Citruscreed. But do you feel morally obligated? 
in short, no. i may have made an error in my thinking and would be pleased to be corrected but I see it like this (I offer my apologies to the ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[<blockquote >@Citruscreed. But do you feel morally obligated? </blockquote><br />in short, no. i may have made an error in my thinking and would be pleased to be corrected but I see it like this (I offer my apologies to the serious thinkers for the unschooled babbling that follows):<br />In my, admittedly limited understanding, morality depends on there being some eternal set of rights and wrongs, where some higher power has decided that such and such a behaviour is good (moral) or bad (immoral). I'm afraid that I simply can't accept this. I think that such an arbitrary, one-size-fits-all approach is bound to lead to folly and eventually, madness.<br />I'll deploy the most hackneyed example of all and say, is it wrong/immoral/selfish to steal? But what if you have a hungry family to feed, no job and no hope of one, if the society you live in is ordered in such a way as to keep you in constant poverty. Is it still wrong/immoral/selfish to steal? It's certainly selfish, but I wouldn't be able to tell a starving person who others depend on to survive that they're immoral because they nicked some tucker. I don't think that morality is very useful in this context. If it is morally wrong to steal, then is it not <em >always</em> morally wrong to steal? I think morality is an attempt to look at issues from an eternal perspective, and while it may make an interesting thought experiment or a complex abstract problem to be mulled over or even a useful component of a system of social control based in irrational belief, it is fundamentally not useful for non-eternal human beings to go round behaving as though we had access to eternal truths. It makes more sense for me to use what I have been taught to think of as the ethical approach - not is it good or bad but is it a good idea or a bad idea? I don't think this is just semantics, I think it is a crucial difference that informs everything that follows. The first question in this case would be "what if everyone did it?" (right?) or the "times a gazillion factor" as I prefer to call it :P Of course, if everybody stole from each other then society would break down, ethics provides no quick and easy answer to the problem above but for me it has more wiggle room and is more sensitive to human experience than morality. We could say, well sure if everyone stole all the time that would suck, but actually, it's mainly those who have little or no option that we're looking at here, they're not fundamentally wicked people so perhaps the fault lies with the way we have ordered society rather than being a function of these morally deficient ne'er-do-wells. Morality allows us to disengage from practical considerations in favour of what is 'right', an ethical approach encourages us to take responsibility for figuring out what the right response is, <em >given the circumstances</em>. If, that is, there can be said to be such a thing as the right response. <br />It's just occurred to me that this looks awfully like an attempt to dodge @Stygmata's question by attacking his premise :P It wasn't meant to be that way!<br />Anyhoo, massive derail, sorry. probably enough to say that no, I don't think it's a great idea for everyone to go round taking massive risks all the time. That would have unpredictable consequences and would hardly be a stable basis for human interaction. Both selfishness and risk-taking are however a fundamental feature of the human experience, it doesn't make sense to regard selfish risk-takers as necessarily evil (or even undesirable) people. Please ;)<br /><br /><blockquote >Stygmata points out the usual targets in such a discussion, Mountain Climbing, smoking, drinking, diet. However what about Driving? Consider the pollutants. Consider the number of car accidents and injuries to pedestrians, roads and motorways built over green belts. Does that mean that someone who drives a car is immoral? </blockquote><br />Yup, they're all gonna burn in hell, planet-poisoning highly-mobile bastards that they are. but srsly, I think I would find it hard to argue against that; if every single person drove their own car we'd be even more fucked than we already are. People with cars are taking advantage of a temporary combination of a)technology and b)resources which has harmful consequences for everyone. I am aware that this is not a fashionable opinion. <br /><br /><blockquote >What about children? Consider that most people do not pay enough taxes for their childrens inoculations, various health issues in development, social welfare and schooling let alone the risk that children spread lots of communicable diseases, are morally blank, and can do the most appalling things to others children and do not contribute. Does that mean that having children in immoral? I know people who think YES!</blockquote> <br />Making a sin of the basic biological imperative is a neat way to demonstrate the absurdity of morality I reckon. To ppl who think having kids is immoral I say, "HeelllllooooOOOoooo..."<br /><br />post break]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=148686#Comment_148686" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=148686#Comment_148686</id>
		<published>2009-04-23T04:04:25-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>city creed</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4530</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			cont'd

But they are sanctimonious and seem to belong to a far fringe of the ecology movement who long for Rousseau's archaic revival and are quite happy to promote the eradication of most of our ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[cont'd<br /><br /><blockquote >But they are sanctimonious and seem to belong to a far fringe of the ecology movement who long for Rousseau's archaic revival and are quite happy to promote the eradication of most of our species, yet don't practice what they preach and seem to me far more immoral when they start talking about "culls".</blockquote><br />this is kind of what I meant, ideology based on morality leads people to these lazy and disgusting conclusions where instead of trying to actually grapple with the reality of the problem they say "God did it and it's broke/human nature is fundamentally flawed... let's just kill everyone and start again." Wow! I'm a total badass amirite?<br /><br />Incidentally, I googled Rousseau+archaic+revival to read more about the details and this thread was the top result :P Hi there world! Other than that, I was able to determine that Archaic Revival is the name of a group of Canadian avant garde, classical/electronic post-rockers. Noice. It sounds on the surface like the kind of atavistic longing that informs the work of say, Tolkien, but without knowing more about it I won't accuse them of simply being unwilling to face the reality of the modern world. Yet. I'm going to strap the internet into a chair and chip out its teeth with a small chisel until it tells me what I want to know.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=148804#Comment_148804" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=148804#Comment_148804</id>
		<published>2009-04-23T14:34:04-07:00</published>
		<updated>2009-04-23T14:35:56-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>doclivingston</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2318</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			morality depends on there being some eternal set of rights and wrongs, where some higher power has decided that such and such a behaviour is good (moral) or bad (immoral)Far too lazy to respond to ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[<blockquote >morality depends on there being some eternal set of rights and wrongs, where some higher power has decided that such and such a behaviour is good (moral) or bad (immoral)</blockquote>Far too lazy to respond to anything but this.  Anyway, that's an awfully limited concept of morality.  What you're describing is more specifically a religious conception of morality (though there's some philosophical exceptions).  There's endless examples of atheists and agnostics with fully formed systems of morality that have nothing whatsoever to do with the concept of absolute right and absolute wrong, or any sort of higher power that determines what's what on the scale.<br />ETA:<blockquote >ideology based on morality leads people to these lazy and disgusting conclusions</blockquote> Doesn't morality based on ideology happen far far more often?]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=148892#Comment_148892" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=148892#Comment_148892</id>
		<published>2009-04-24T00:47:35-07:00</published>
		<updated>2009-04-24T00:50:39-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Labyrinthine</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5782</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			@Citruscreed what doclivingston said. not is it good or bad but is it a good idea or a bad idea? I don't think this is just semantics, I think it is a crucial difference that informs everything that ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[@Citruscreed what doclivingston said. <blockquote >not is it good or bad but is it a good idea or a bad idea? I don't think this is just semantics, I think it is a crucial difference that informs everything that follows. The first question in this case would be "what if everyone did it?" (right?) or the "times a gazillion factor" as I prefer to call it</blockquote> a) Your gazillion factor is Kant's <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immanuel_Kant#Moral_philosophy" >First Formulation</a>. Don't worry, I spend a lot of time reinventing the wheel in these discussions, too. Too much to read, not enough time! Try going through <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanism" >Humanism</a> and <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pragmatism#Ethics" >Pragmatism</a> as that seems to be where you're headed anyway.<br /><br />b) Which leads pretty neatly into: Yes. It pretty much is semantics. "Good" implies in itself "good idea" - the reason they seem different to you is that you are using in the first case an Absolutist definition of good and in the second a Pragmatist or <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consequentialism" >Consequentialist</a> definition. So yeah, it's semantics - semantics are important. Good and bad mean different things on the want/do not want spectrum depending pretty much entirely ON semantics, even before we get into the "who defines good" issue.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=148925#Comment_148925" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=148925#Comment_148925</id>
		<published>2009-04-24T04:14:25-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Audley Strange</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4475</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			Glad someone else thinks that semantics are important other than myself, I'm tired of the often dismissive &quot;oh that's just semantics&quot; cliche'. Good and bad though are quite nebulous and ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[Glad someone else thinks that semantics are important other than myself, I'm tired of the often dismissive "oh that's just semantics" cliche'. Good and bad though are quite nebulous and though we all know what they "mean"  they tell us little, not to mention reinforcing dualism of thought which I would consider somewhat detrimental since it does appear to pertain to absolutism. One of my friends discusses things in terms of varied levels of usefulness or detriment, which I think, gives us a larger palette upon which to make value judgments.<br /><br />Which is why I think most actions, unless done with willful intent to the detriment of others should be considered amoral.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=148935#Comment_148935" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=148935#Comment_148935</id>
		<published>2009-04-24T04:42:33-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Solario</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=58</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			@Charlene,

Jaques Derrida argued that the biggest paradox of philosophy is that if you could somehow manage to answer the myriad of questions that philosophy asked, Philosophy would cease to ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[@Charlene,<br /><br />Jaques Derrida argued that the biggest paradox of philosophy is that if you could somehow manage to answer the myriad of questions that philosophy asked, Philosophy would cease to exist.<br /><br />(Thank you, Action Philosophers.)]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=148942#Comment_148942" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=148942#Comment_148942</id>
		<published>2009-04-24T05:13:01-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>city creed</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4530</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			@ doc livingston:
fully formed systems of morality that have nothing whatsoever to do with the concept of absolute right and absolute wrong
ok, do I have to take your word for it or would you be ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[@ doc livingston:<br /><blockquote >fully formed systems of morality that have nothing whatsoever to do with the concept of absolute right and absolute wrong</blockquote><br />ok, do I have to take your word for it or would you be prepared to name a few of these examples so I can look at them and see what you mean? I don't mean to be rude, I just wish to better understand my own misunderstanding. "Higher Power" was a bit provocative of me, I didn't mean god etc specifically, rather that there is some objectively desirable truth that applies in all situations. Do you mean, like, communism suggests it is moral to share everything you have in common with everyone else? Or like fascist morality suggests that an individual must subjugate their own needs to the needs of the state? If so, I'd suggest that these still try to use some "eternal" (are we calling this absolute?) perspective to justify their demands.<br />re: morality/ideology<br />I guess it works both ways. I'm not sure how much there is to gain from an argument about whether morality more commonly fosters ideology, or ideology more commonly fosters morality.<br /><br />@Labyrinthine: Thanks! I'll look at those links. I see what you're saying about the absolutist/consequentialist thing. I still think that when someone says they think something is the morally right thing to do (Good), they mean something quite different to the most beneficial/useful thing to do (good idea). Once I've familiarised myself with the thoughtscape here I may be able to express that a little more precisely.<br /><br />@Audley: I didn't mean to dismiss semantics out of hand. I have been accused myself of worrying too much about the precise meanings of words. I think it is important that everyone is on the same page. <br /><br />@Solario: I scare myself sometimes, wondering if the meaning of life is wondering about the meaning of life.<br /><br />@all: sorry about the mega input, thanks for your patience and your educative responses ;)]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=148962#Comment_148962" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=148962#Comment_148962</id>
		<published>2009-04-24T06:13:38-07:00</published>
		<updated>2009-04-24T06:14:33-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Audley Strange</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4475</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			@ Citruscreed.

Apologies, I never meant to accuse you of anything, especially as I think the same. Language can be a brilliant tool, especially if one is precise in it's use. Many assume that the ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[@ Citruscreed.<br /><br />Apologies, I never meant to accuse you of anything, especially as I think the same. Language can be a brilliant tool, especially if one is precise in it's use. Many assume that the noises they make are automatically understood by everyone, which is often not the case. I find myself constantly having to ask my good lady what people on the News or V.O. on adverts are trying to impart, I'm not being obtuse and English is my first language, I just find myself often not understanding some of the things because I don't use it as a constant frame of reference. <br /><br />An example of this (which I pointed out somewhere on another thread) was the recent popular usage of the phrases "A big ask" and "blue sky thinking". I really had difficulty trying to understand them (though I knew what each of the words was) and others who apparently knew what they meant had difficulty expressing what the phrases actually meant.<br /><br />A small digression, but yes, it is important that we have a consensual understanding of our concepts and meanings.<br /><br />As for the meaning of life, it seems to me another fallacious concept. "what does life mean?" It means you're not dead. OR 15 years with time off for good behaviour. I don't know if I get that one either.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=149005#Comment_149005" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=149005#Comment_149005</id>
		<published>2009-04-24T10:09:13-07:00</published>
		<updated>2009-04-24T10:19:25-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>doclivingston</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2318</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			@citrus:  You're just defining morality incorrectly, I really don't even think it gets to the point where I'd have to provide examples to show you.  (Uh, how 'bout me, for one?)  Subjective morality ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[@citrus:  You're just defining morality incorrectly, I really don't even think it gets to the point where I'd have to provide examples to show you.  (Uh, how 'bout me, for one?)  Subjective morality isn't exactly a hard thing to conceive.  You basically described it, but then called it ethics.  You're splitting hairs, narrowing down what you think morality is and then arguing against that.  Nietzsche and Freud both rejected the type of absolutist morality you're describing (and yeah, absolutist would be the appropriate word), and so do almost every atheist and agnostic you'll meet.  Most anyone that rejects the idea that we can reliably know the existence of any higher power.  Most anyone that rejects the idea that we can fully know objective truth, and consequently, any sort of accurate knowledge of what's objectively right or wrong, good or bad.  (Or, rather, that significantly large group of people I'm a part of that believes there's no such thing as objective right or wrong or good or bad.)  As you laid it out yourself, people can decide what is <em >relatively</em> "right" or "wrong" in a given situation based on <em >circumstances</em>.  That's subjective morality.  Again, you just decided to call that ethics.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=149011#Comment_149011" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=149011#Comment_149011</id>
		<published>2009-04-24T10:27:45-07:00</published>
		<updated>2009-04-24T10:28:04-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>doclivingston</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2318</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			Blah.  I was totally blanking on it, even when stressing &quot;relatively&quot;... wow, shameful.  Here.  Moral relativism.  Jesus my brain don't work no more...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[Blah.  I was totally blanking on it, even when stressing "relatively"... wow, shameful.  Here.  <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_relativism" >Moral relativism</a>.  Jesus my brain don't work no more...]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=149023#Comment_149023" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=149023#Comment_149023</id>
		<published>2009-04-24T11:09:27-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>MWHS</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5283</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			Sorry about this, my brain is rather addled from an afternoon at the pub(s), but re: ok, do I have to take your word for it or would you be prepared to name a few of these examples so I can look at ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[Sorry about this, my brain is rather addled from an afternoon at the pub(s), but re: <blockquote >ok, do I have to take your word for it or would you be prepared to name a few of these examples so I can look at them and see what you mean?</blockquote><br /><br />Virtue theory, as espoused by G.E.M. Anscombe or P. Geach? I'd recommend Casey as an intro.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=149048#Comment_149048" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=149048#Comment_149048</id>
		<published>2009-04-24T13:33:39-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>city creed</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4530</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			@doc: Again, you just decided to call that ethics.
um, it wasn't me. Or at least, I didn't mean to. I understood that to be the difference between morality and ethics. Are you saying there is no ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[@doc:<blockquote > Again, you just decided to call that ethics.</blockquote><br />um, it wasn't me. Or at least, I didn't mean to. I understood that to be the difference between morality and ethics. Are you saying there is no meaningful difference? Or that ethics is something else entirely?]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=149056#Comment_149056" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=149056#Comment_149056</id>
		<published>2009-04-24T14:21:09-07:00</published>
		<updated>2009-04-24T14:34:19-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>doclivingston</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2318</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			It's arguable, as the two get interchanged quite a lot and have overlaps, but if there's a difference, it's usually this: ethics is the study and implementation of morality.  You seem to be going ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[It's arguable, as the two get interchanged quite a lot and have overlaps, but if there's a difference, it's usually this: ethics is the study and implementation of morality.  You seem to be going with something entirely different: first, that morality is always an absolutist description of what is objectively right and objectively wrong across all situations, and second, that ethics is a preferable method of going about things, taking circumstance into account.  Insisting on looking at things that way just strikes me as having very very limited usefulness, and doesn't really seem to be how either morality or ethics in general are usually defined or discussed.<br />(Edited repeatedly for a lil less smugness, a lil more intelligence... hopefully.)]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=149100#Comment_149100" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=149100#Comment_149100</id>
		<published>2009-04-24T18:00:20-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>city creed</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4530</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			ok, so a university's ethics committee judges whether x research is morally acceptable. like that? practicable interpretations of abstract concepts. am i getting warm yet?

so in an audacious, and ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[ok, so a university's ethics committee judges whether x research is morally acceptable. like that? practicable interpretations of abstract concepts. am i getting warm yet?<br /><br />so in an audacious, and not entirely unexpected, volte face; I'm abandoning the idea that morality is necessarily an absolutist description of what is objectively right and objectively wrong. But it is still basically a description of what is right and wrong though, isn't it? It can be sensitive to circumstance but still refers to something over and above simply useful or detrimental, no?<br /><br />I still feel like I'm not getting something (you most likely won't be surprised to hear): moral relativism is surely a wrigglier and slipperier beast than even Barry. If morality is all relative and never absolute then it would seem even less useful than a few simple practical rules for not being a cunt. So what's it for? Why is it important to ask if risk-taking behaviour is morally wrong rather than simply asking if it is likely to end up hurting people? <br /><br />It's @Stygmata I feel bad for. I can almost imagine his 'sploded eyes pissing blood all over his keyboard and monitor as the will to live is forcibly pumped out of him. I'll stop now. This public delineation of the dimensions of my ignorance has gone on long enough. I return this mutilated thread to your sagacious custody like a cat might present you with a cute lil bunny rabbit after it has torn off one of the hind legs.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=149124#Comment_149124" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=149124#Comment_149124</id>
		<published>2009-04-24T21:10:03-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>voyou</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2205</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			Why is it important to ask if risk-taking behaviour is morally wrong rather than simply asking if it is likely to end up hurting people?

Why would we care whether people get hurt or not? ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[<em >Why is it important to ask if risk-taking behaviour is morally wrong rather than simply asking if it is likely to end up hurting people?</em><br /><br />Why would we care whether people get hurt or not? Presumably because we judge that there's something bad about people being hurt; but making that kind of judgement involves thinking about morality.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=149157#Comment_149157" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=149157#Comment_149157</id>
		<published>2009-04-25T03:11:02-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Finagle</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5254</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			@citruscreed et al - No worries, I've had a busy week, and it has been fun to read.    Maybe I'll start off a new weekly topic or something - the recent drift to talking about morality in general ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[@citruscreed et al - No worries, I've had a busy week, and it has been fun to read.    Maybe I'll start off a new weekly topic or something - the recent drift to talking about morality in general puts me in mind of some stuff from Nietzsche that also has relevance in the light of the recent American "torture memo" revelations.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=149160#Comment_149160" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=149160#Comment_149160</id>
		<published>2009-04-25T03:23:26-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Audley Strange</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4475</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			Would that be &quot;battle not with monsters?&quot;
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[Would that be "battle not with monsters?"]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=149163#Comment_149163" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=149163#Comment_149163</id>
		<published>2009-04-25T03:31:23-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Finagle</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5254</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			&quot;Whether we immoralists are harming virtue?  Just as little as anarchists harm princes.  Only since the latter are shot at do they again sit securely on their thrones.  Moral:  Morality must be ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA["Whether we immoralists are <em >harming </em>virtue?  Just as little as anarchists harm princes.  Only since the latter are shot at do they again sit securely on their thrones.  Moral:  <em >Morality must be shot at</em>." <br /><br />- /Twilight of the Idols/, Maxims 36]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=149171#Comment_149171" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=149171#Comment_149171</id>
		<published>2009-04-25T04:00:01-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Audley Strange</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4475</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			Heh. Nice. Is there an irony, do you think, it was published exactly 100 years after the revolution in France? I'm uncertain as to what he is getting at, is he saying Morality only survives after ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[Heh. Nice. Is there an irony, do you think, it was published exactly 100 years after the revolution in France? I'm uncertain as to what he is getting at, is he saying Morality only survives after being tested or is he saying it must be terminated?]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=149172#Comment_149172" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=149172#Comment_149172</id>
		<published>2009-04-25T04:25:50-07:00</published>
		<updated>2009-04-25T04:39:07-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Finagle</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5254</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			Nietzsche hated the French Revolution - but perhaps not for the reasons many of us commonly assume about his thought:  That he was the champion of the will-to-power, the &quot;blonde beast&quot; ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[Nietzsche hated the French Revolution - but perhaps not for the reasons many of us commonly assume about his thought:  That he was the champion of the will-to-power, the "blonde beast" associated with elitism, National Socialism, and Randroids.  But this leads into the second challenging quotation about morality, punishment and society that had me thinking recently:<br /><br /><blockquote > It would not be impossible to imagine a society with a consciousness of its own power which allowed itself the most privileged luxury which it can have—letting its criminals go free without punishment. “Why should I really bother about my parasites,” it could then say. “May they live and prosper—for that I am still sufficiently strong!” . . . Justice, which started by stating “Everything is capable of being paid for, everything must be paid off” ends at that point, by covering its eyes and letting the person incapable of payment go free—it ends, as every good thing on earth ends, by doing away with itself. This self-negation of justice—we know what a beautiful name it calls itself—mercy. It goes without saying that mercy remains the privilege of the most powerful man, or even better, his beyond the law. </blockquote>  - /Genealogy of Morals/, Essay 2, Section 10.<br /><br />Taking this in the light of the recent American "torture memo" flap - what would it mean to just walk away from the whole mess?  To have done with the hearings and Truth and Reconciliation committees, and as a society, just brush our shoulders off and move on, without punishment?  Can that be done out of strength and not weakness? <br /><br />Honestly, I'm not sure I understand what this would look like.<br /><br />---<br />ETA:  For that matter, what would it mean to simply walk away from the "War on Terror"?  Could we build a society that can simply <em >endure </em> its terrorists? <br /><br /><br /><br />-]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=149184#Comment_149184" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=149184#Comment_149184</id>
		<published>2009-04-25T05:15:48-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Audley Strange</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4475</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			That is a very interesting question, and one strictly, it seems to me, that America has to struggle with. However the Administration purports a &quot;Moral Authority&quot; and makes significant ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[That is a very interesting question, and one strictly, it seems to me, that America has to struggle with. However the Administration purports a "Moral Authority" and makes significant noises about freedom justice etc. So it would seem to me in doing so it would have to consider following the International Law in spirit rather than weasel its way around it. There is no strength there surely, only gross hypocrisy? As the quote says, it ends by "doing away with itself" at least as an idea that it pretends to follow. To me it would look like a betrayal of the fundamental basis of America as it considers itself (though as an outsider, perhaps I'm not justified in commenting as to what America considers itself, perhaps the ideas it pronounced since it's foundation have been nothing but rhetoric.) <br /><br />As for your second point, most societies did simply endure their terrorists in so far as they considered them nothing but merely criminals and dealt with them as such. Even the Oklahoma City bombing was endured that way. This was my point about "Battle not..."  The Attacks on 11/9/01 as dramatic and horrifying as they were, were <em >merely</em> criminal acts, but instead of dealing with them that way, the attacks gave rise to a "WAR" against monsters and in doing so America created a new paradigm in dealing with Terrorism.  That paradigm, as far as I can see, gave carte blanche for countries (not only the States or Israel) to erode the very things they claim they were fighting to protect. Pre-emptive paranoia, rendition, torture, dehumanisation of other cultures, restrictions on civil liberties and using weapons of mass destruction against a populace in order to achieve political ends.  This is the essence of terrorism and increasingly it is the justification of fighting terrorism worldwide.  <br /><br />So yes, I think you could, in fact I suspect America is in a prime position to simply endure it's terrorists, however to do so would require a sane rational media which does not "FEAR UP" the populace into a terrified hysteria causing the Government to react in such extreme ways.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=149191#Comment_149191" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=149191#Comment_149191</id>
		<published>2009-04-25T05:51:01-07:00</published>
		<updated>2009-04-25T05:55:16-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>city creed</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4530</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			my princes 

*bows deeply*

Can man be redeemed? Is forgiveness not greater than justice? Apt questions both.

Allow me to posit that imprisonment of criminals is not solely about the delivery ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[<img src="http://i43.tinypic.com/1zg5eeb.jpg" alt=";)" ><br />my princes <br /><br />*bows deeply*<br /><br />Can man be redeemed? Is forgiveness not greater than justice? Apt questions both.<br /><br />Allow me to posit that imprisonment of criminals is not solely about the delivery of punishment. Ostensibly, on this wet and blasted rock at least, it is primarily about the protection of society from those unable to restrain their baser impulses.<br /><br />The great thinker Stephenson N, wrote speculatively of a technological device similar in appearance to a back brace that could be physically installed upon those individuals with a known propensity for nefarious activity. Such a device would discreetly monitor the behaviour of the villain in question, only becoming noticeably active to incapacitate the luckless wretch quite thoroughly should he engage in any action deemed questionable by the law. Thus freedom from incarceration could still provide a measure of security for the wider population and liberty from the well-documented social ills arising from a permanent prison society.<br /><br />I contend sirs, that punishment is something wholly apart from justice. It satisfies only the emotional impulse for revenge and of itself serves no social good. In truth, quite the opposite. Rather, it is a snarled threat of violence directed by a state towards her citizens. An implicit assurance that force is right. Any theoretical deterrent effect of punishment is undermined by the effect of enforcing a model of society that encourages its people to believe that it is natural and right that the strongest local entity should hold power over that most essential requirement of a good and useful life. Freedom. <br /><br />I beg you, royal gentlemen and common folk alike, not to guillotine these bestial knaves. Or even to enclose them in fetid, lightless pens till the end of their days. Yes they are corrupted by cruelty, deceit and unwarranted self-importance, but a greater good, the common weal, is only truly served by the simple act of putting the instruments and practices of torture beyond use, not by deserting these hapless blackguards to the rough and bloody medicine of the slavering mob.<br /><br />now I really must dash before these fine constables lay hands on my collar, I have to print up some inflammatory leaflets...]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=149584#Comment_149584" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=149584#Comment_149584</id>
		<published>2009-04-27T03:53:02-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Mercer Finn</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5496</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			Hey. Quite interested in reading Nietzsche and Kierkegaard. Can anyone recommend readable/accessible starter texts? I'm coming from a literature rather than philosophy background, so can't handle ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[Hey. Quite interested in reading Nietzsche and Kierkegaard. Can anyone recommend readable/accessible starter texts? I'm coming from a literature rather than philosophy background, so can't handle anything too difficult. Also, particular editions/translations would be much appreciated. Thanks.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=150517#Comment_150517" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=150517#Comment_150517</id>
		<published>2009-04-30T02:13:07-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Finagle</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5254</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			@IliaPop - 

For Nietzsche, I would start with this Walter Kaufmann edition of the /Genealogy of Morals/ - just ignore /Ecce Homo/ for now even though it is included, Nietzsche was quite mad by the ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[@IliaPop - <br /><br />For Nietzsche, I would start with this Walter Kaufmann edition of the <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Genealogy-Morals-Ecce-Homo/dp/0679724621/ref=pd_bbs_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1241085988&sr=8-2" >/Genealogy of Morals/</a> - just ignore /Ecce Homo/ for now even though it is included, Nietzsche was quite mad by the time he wrote it. <br /><br />For Kierkegaard, I would choose this edition of /<a href="http://www.amazon.com/Fear-Trembling-Repetition-Kierkegaards-Writings/dp/0691020264/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1241086088&sr=1-2" >Repetition</a>/.   It is Kierkegaard's both most accessible and most challenging work, but most importantly the one that needs the least knowledge of Hegel in order to make sense.  You really need to do at least a quick gloss of Hegel in order to get what Kierkegaard is on about.  I also recommend picking up a biography of S.K. - normally I don't recommend knowing anything at all about the life of a philosopher in order to make sense of their works, but in the case of S.K. it really is pertinent.  He was told from an early age that his father cursed God for his lot at being a boring Danish sheep herder...it doesn't get much more relevant for gloomy existentialists than that.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=150518#Comment_150518" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=150518#Comment_150518</id>
		<published>2009-04-30T02:15:15-07:00</published>
		<updated>2009-04-30T02:15:28-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Finagle</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5254</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			BTW, I edited the subject line in the hopes of sparking some discussion.  Existentialism is still quite relevant today, and I think it really deserves a second look in our post-postmodern age.
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[BTW, I edited the subject line in the hopes of sparking some discussion.  Existentialism is still quite relevant today, and I think it really deserves a second look in our post-postmodern age.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=150607#Comment_150607" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=150607#Comment_150607</id>
		<published>2009-04-30T10:36:50-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Mercer Finn</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5496</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			Thanks. I'll look out for them in my next visit to the bookshop...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[Thanks. I'll look out for them in my next visit to the bookshop...]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=245840#Comment_245840" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=245840#Comment_245840</id>
		<published>2010-06-18T18:42:02-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Finagle</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5254</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			Reviving this thread after a long absence:

I have just ordered an abridged copy of the Diaries of Soren Kierkegaard, and will be beginning an irregular exegetical discussion on the topic. 

Why ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[Reviving this thread after a long absence:<br /><br />I have just ordered an abridged copy of the Diaries of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%B8ren_Kierkegaard" >Soren Kierkegaard</a>, and will be beginning an irregular exegetical discussion on the topic. <br /><br />Why <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%B8ren_Kierkegaard" >Kierkegaard</a>?  Stay tuned.  Kierkegaard is the most current and cogent philosopher of all times. To be explicit:  Kierkegaard > Nietzsche, in terms of both importance, writing quality and influence. <br /><br />We live in the End Times.  Kierkegaard has the road map for our future difficulties.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=245854#Comment_245854" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=245854#Comment_245854</id>
		<published>2010-06-18T20:01:08-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>city creed</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4530</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			good lord, has it really been that long? :P
heh, since my last post in this thread I have studied two terms of philosophy at uni and whittled away gradually at the edges of my ignorance.
So, ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[good lord, has it really been that long? :P<br />heh, since my last post in this thread I have studied two terms of philosophy at uni and whittled away gradually at the edges of my ignorance.<br />So, although I will be watching this thread with interest, I will be mostly lurking. Mostly.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=245861#Comment_245861" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=245861#Comment_245861</id>
		<published>2010-06-18T20:53:57-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>ebullientsoul</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=7705</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			Graduated in Philosophy. Wading through Rawls and WIttgenstein. Oh God.
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[Graduated in Philosophy. Wading through Rawls and WIttgenstein. Oh God.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=245885#Comment_245885" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=245885#Comment_245885</id>
		<published>2010-06-19T01:57:17-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Charlene</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4463</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			I've just started reading LOGICOMIX - An Epic Search For Truth. Really enjoying it so far. It starts with Bertrand Russell.
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[I've just started reading LOGICOMIX - An Epic Search For Truth. Really enjoying it so far. It starts with Bertrand Russell.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=245890#Comment_245890" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=245890#Comment_245890</id>
		<published>2010-06-19T02:47:21-07:00</published>
		<updated>2013-06-20T00:41:47-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Solario</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=58</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			@Finagle

I haven't read all of Kierkegaard's work, so be prepared for some ignorance and two questions.

But what about his, honestly, dubious attitude towards the existence of God? Primarily in ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[@Finagle<br /><br />I haven't read all of Kierkegaard's work, so be prepared for some ignorance and two questions.<br /><br />But what about his, honestly, dubious attitude towards the existence of God? Primarily in relation to ethics. The idea that ethics are self-defined and logical, but have to be cast aside if one wishes to be achieve the highest stage of Kierkegaardian existence, the religious, which is illogical, strikes me as going against everything logic and modern philosophy is about. If you can't argue logically for it, it's nothing more than a delusion. You can't just excempt religion from being bound by logic. <br /><br />And I find the idea of his three stages to be somewhat inadequate. Why shouldn't I be able to enjoy the aesthetical existence and the ethical existence in some form of unity?]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<title>On Philosophy - Kierkegaard</title>
		<link rel="alternate" href="http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=245896#Comment_245896" type="application/xhtml+xml" hreflang="en"/>
		<id>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=5365&amp;Focus=245896#Comment_245896</id>
		<published>2010-06-19T04:08:04-07:00</published>
		<updated>2010-06-19T04:09:35-07:00</updated>
		<author>
			<name>Finagle</name>
			<uri>http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5254</uri>
		</author>
		<summary type="text" xml:lang="en">
			@solario - I will definitely be addressing this more later, but I find ol' S.K. to be most rewarding if the &quot;stages&quot; (aesthetic, ethical, religious) are not seen as a literal developmental ...
		</summary>
		<content type="html">
			<![CDATA[@solario - I will definitely be addressing this more later, but I find ol' S.K. to be most rewarding if the "stages" (aesthetic, ethical, religious) are not seen as a literal developmental path.  Keep in mind Kierkegaard's main target, philosophically, is <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hegel" >Hegel</a>.  S.K. also loves tricks, jokes and misdirection for educational purposes.  Don't those three stages look an awful lot like a Hegelian dialectical progression of thesis, antithesis and synthesis?  Whenever you see anything in Kierkegaard's writing that smells like a <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialectic" >dialectic</a>, you should be suspicious that he is up to something.<br /><br />Try considering the "stages" then not as a progression culminating in the final synthesis, but as modalities or styles of existence.  One may choose to regard an issue from an aethetic or ethical point of view, which are really only shorthand in turn for subjectivity vs. objectivity.  S.K. is pointing out that humanity positions itself on the horns of a dilemma, oscillating between two different perspectives on existence - "How do I feel about it?" versus "What is right for everyone?" - and the possibility of (at least) one other perspective, the religious, which may *transcend* the two positions.  And the religious "stage", in turn, may or may not turn out to be about any sort of God at all.<br /><br />What I hope to find in the /Diaries/ is the central way this played out in S.K.'s own life, his failure to marry <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regina_olsen" >Regine Olsen</a>.]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
	
		</feed>