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Warren's Pub Table: The DOKTOR SLEEPLESS #12 Thread

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  1.  (5548.21)
    @William Christensen
    @ Spiral - yep. If that will make you happy, we live to serve.


    Yes, thank you.
  2.  (5548.22)
    I just don't see it, there's these moments where he's shown real compassion,

    When?
  3.  (5548.23)
    where he's shown real compassion
    It's human nature to want to look at those moments and see compassion, not ruthlessness because he does what he does to get things done, not to be a nice person. Take this latest "free" medical care. Everyone is getting new medical tags. He was building a zombie tag machine in the earlier issues. Add it up and he will have a healthy, massive army to do his bidding when he needs it. He is not really helping those people, he is using them for his own means.
  4.  (5548.24)
    I'm beginning to think those warning signs weren't bullshit - such as being watched inside you own blood and psychoactive air. I think those free medical tags aren't all they seem. And Doktor Sleepless is the antichrist! Shining his 666 grinder symbol over a city he has brought to the brink of destruction, forcing people to pay with rfid chips (revelations), and generally being an amoral bastard.
    •  
      CommentAuthorzensurfer
    • CommentTimeApr 11th 2009
     (5548.25)
    my kinda guy
    • CommentAuthorVerus
    • CommentTimeApr 11th 2009
     (5548.26)
    @ warrenellis

    He felt bad about Max Cale being murdered, and he saved that person's life in #1. Those seemed like moments of compassion to me. Also when he's going on about all these things that are wrong with the world he seems genuinely concerned. So it's difficult for me to reconcile that with him being the villain...

    @ spiraltwist

    It's human nature to want to look at those moments and see compassion, not ruthlessness because he does what he does to get things done, not to be a nice person.


    Good point, that's probably it.
  7.  (5548.27)
    and he saved that person's life in #1.

    And thereby created an image of himself as magic messiah of the Grinders.
    •  
      CommentAuthoroddbill
    • CommentTimeApr 12th 2009
     (5548.28)
    I'm beginning to think those warning signs weren't bullshit


    Yes. Who is spreading the warning signs? the Doktor? Someone else? Maybe the same source that sends the St. Theresa's masks? Is that the Doktor, or someone who is trying to blunt or hijack his chaotic instigations?

    This story is quite tasty.
  9.  (5548.29)
    Getting better with every issue. The dialogue between Detective Singer and the Headhunters is remarkably well-written, and it's a very good narrative choice to examine the consequences of Doktor Sleepless' actions over Heavenside while the character himself virtually disappears, giving him a godly, puppeteer aura that makes him more threatening and fascinating. Ivan Rodriguez' art is as good as always, even if Andrew Dalhouse's colouring, as mentioned in this thread, is flawed.

    Recently, I had been thinking your dialogue wasn't as good as usual, feeling it lacked "character voice" -- they all sounded like you, or their lines just didn't sound natural. Fortunately, this problem seems to have disappeared (the aforementioned dialogue between Singer and the Headhunters shows that).

    Complete review here.
  10.  (5548.30)
    I bought the first trade months ago, but wasn't into the book as much as I thought I would be. I hear that the story has really picked up... should I grab issues 9-12?
    • CommentAuthorCraig Shaw
    • CommentTimeApr 12th 2009
     (5548.31)
    Enjoyed the anarchy of it all, even the Dok's seeming benevolence, which looks to me like its own way of inciting further mischief.
    •  
      CommentAuthorcurb
    • CommentTimeApr 12th 2009
     (5548.32)
    So, Warren. hopefully this isn't spilling over into an interrogation/work FAQ question - apologies if so.

    I know some writers feel they're not entirely in control of the characters they write, and that the characters can act in ways that surprise the author. Is this the case with Doktor Sleepless, or do you know exactly what he's planning and where it'll take the story?
    • CommentAuthorDrinkwater
    • CommentTimeApr 13th 2009 edited
     (5548.33)
    I'm going to toss my hat into this debate, with the full awareness (or is it hope?) that I may very well be slapped down by another forum member or even Warren himself.

    I really, really love the idea of Doktor Sleepless truly being a villain with the dream of killing humanity. However, I feel as though there are a couple of points of hesitation that prevent me from fully buying into this idea. Firstly, assuming that Sleepless really is trying to bring about the end of the world, could his motivations for doing so be spun in a positive light? I mean, perhaps he is only leading humanity to its death to prevent it from being devoured by extra-dimensional people-eaters. Could Dr. Sleepless be a global Dr. Kevorkian?

    The other reason I’m unsure of whether or not I’m willing to accept Dr. Sleepless as wholly destructively minded is the fact that I find myself inspired by him. What about this speech:

    <strong>We’re not authentic to society…But you know what? Back in the days before the internet, a kid called Robert Zimmerman said “Fuck that, I’m going to be the man I dream of being. I’m going to become someone completely new and write about the end of the world because it’s the only thing worth talking about.” And that was one guy in Minnesota…Imagine what all of us, living here in the future, can achieve.

    Be authentic to your dreams. Be authentic to your own ideas about yourself. Grind away at your own minds and bodies until you become your own inventions. Be mad scientists.</strong>

    This makes me what to give the middle-finger to society and then carve out a reality that I find personally fulfilling. Or is the whole point that I, like the Grinders, would become so entranced by this sort of message that Dr. Sleepless would be able to use me to end the world?
    • CommentAuthorVerus
    • CommentTimeApr 13th 2009
     (5548.34)
    Oh yes, the Bob Dylan rant is a good example. There was also the first page of #1, where Dok said "today I stop being real." Which might imply that he is merely acting, that he needs people to believe he is the villain. But maybe he gets so caught up in his villainous alter ego that he truly does become the villain?

    Of course this is hardly a black and white thing: I'm not saying Doktor Sleepless is Captain America. But I'm not ready yet to believe he is Ernst Stavro Blofeld.

    And I'm still very, very curious to see what the John Reinhardt connection is. And I hope we get to see what happened with Don Bastardos in the jungle...
  15.  (5548.35)
    Or is the whole point that I, like the Grinders, would become so entranced by this sort of message that Dr. Sleepless would be able to use me to end the world?

    Ding!

    Also: crazy people lie all the time and make no sense!
    •  
      CommentAuthorcelan
    • CommentTimeApr 14th 2009
     (5548.36)
    Also: crazy people lie all the time and make no sense!


    I have verified this in my personal life.
  17.  (5548.37)
    I don't remember which issue it was (possibly 11) but there was a mention of refugees leaving England because it was flooded over. Freakangels tie in?
    • CommentAuthorVerus
    • CommentTimeApr 15th 2009
     (5548.38)
    crazy people lie all the time and make no sense!


    Though this be madness, yet there's a method in it.

    Is John Reinhardt (well is he John Reinhardt or isn't he?) a textbook schizophrenic? The transdimensional beings that prey on humanity made me think of that possibility. People who suffer from schizophrenia can have pretty intense hallucinations like that.

    Some researchers have suggested that hereditary factors play a large part in schizophrenia which may also explain his parents suicide. So there he is: a highly intelligent child, with a tragic background, living in a place that just doesn't make sense to him.

    Certain drugs have also been linked to schizophrenia. Maybe the ayahuasca John experimented with in the Amazon basin exacerbated the situation, sending him over the edge. I certainly know that schizophrenia + alcohol is a bad combination.

    Arieti in his excellent Interpretations of Schizophrenia stated that there's often an explanation for the delusions the patient suffers from. Meaning the Doktor's transdimensional Gods may be symbolic for something else, something that is related to the cause of the disease. It may represent Life being devoid of any meaning, like Dok says in that little quote from The Darkening Sky: "There's a passage in there, Sing, that tells us what we all know -- in order to eat, we have to kill plants, fish and animals. What kind of world is that, where something has to die in order for something else to live."
    • CommentAuthorcjstevens
    • CommentTimeApr 18th 2009
     (5548.39)
    Great issue, abundance of doom.

    Can someone help me with the Herbie Hancock reference...
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      CommentAuthorrickiep00h
    • CommentTimeApr 22nd 2009
     (5548.40)
    So I just got this (and Crossed #4 and Ignition City #1, which I'll get to in a bit) and I'm glad to see the Dok "showing his face", as it were.

    I actually don't have much to add to the discussion other than it's going to be pretty amusing when all the Grinder nanotech activates. "You are being watched from inside your own blood": the thronging masses are going to be the eyes and ears of the Dok, methinks. Fun fun.

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