Whitechapel - FREAKANGELS Episode 59

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

Ariana — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 04:07:21 -0700

It'd Friday, it's new FREAKANGELS. In a surprising show of compassion to all of you mad theorizers, Warren does not meanwhile the story over to poultry or fish.

(I lie, I know. Warren has no compassion for the likes of you. He was just laughing too hard to type, and needed to put a stop to that. For a minute.)

But there you are: Another Friday beatdown to start your morning right. Could you possibly have a bad day after that? How's everyone doing, then?

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

Kradlum — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 04:11:31 -0700

I cheated and typed in the url before the link was up. I've been refreshing the page for too long this morning. Page 4 is excellent!

I was ill Monday and Wednesday with different but possibly related illnesses. Now fully recovered and energised by FreakAngel Friday, I'm off to the LCS and to post the notebookeryuk notebook, assuming the post boxes aren't sealed due to the strike.

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

Welland — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 04:12:39 -0700

Thank god it's friday is all I can say, glad to see you are over your allergy attack now, got a nice lazy weekend a head of me and loads of writing to do on Monday, I have taken the day of from my mundane job to play the writer for one day so looking forward to that.

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

Scrymgeour — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 04:13:00 -0700

Oh my god
freakangels wang
followed by
"some of us think...."
brutal
Also the girl still hasnt woken up from her freakcoma.

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

Purple Wyrm — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 04:14:53 -0700

I'm tired out and looking forwards to a long sleep in tomorrow. Thank god it's already evening over here (and FreakAngels Friday to boot).

As for the episode - wow. Not only the fine view of FreakAngel junk we were denied last week, but FreakAngel on FreakAngel telekinetic combat. And that shot of Sirkka on page 3 is fantastic.

Things do not look good for Luke.

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

Greasemonkey — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 04:20:22 -0700

Doing fine. It's Friday night and I'm just home from the splendid local pizzaria, busily getting smashed on Yellowtail merlot.

A damned good episode of Freakangels this week. Well done, Ellis and Duffield.

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

trini_naenae — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 04:21:51 -0700

Now he's finally going to get what's coming to him. About damn time. I am going to appreciate their vengeance. Perhaps a little too much.

I've had a good week and I finally got the polo shirt for work so I can be a little more casual on Fridays. Oh, and I'm wide awake at 4am. What is this? Ah well.

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

Silvith — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 04:22:14 -0700

The only thing I've ever liked about Luke is his name.. ^^ I hope they break his brain and send him drooling into WhiteChapel. With pants. Oh, please give him pants!
Alice is great though ^x^

On an unrelated note: I'd love to have the FA logo as a sticker on my netbook. Can this be/ has this been realized?

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

Dotcommunist — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 04:27:35 -0700

Awesomeness squared.

I'm wondering if we might see Luke exiled after some serious neural editing- possibility of allying with Mark?

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

Fri, 19 Jun 2009 04:27:43 -0700

Yay! That was excellent.

Up all night working. Probably gonna be up for rather a while longer at that, but I thought I'd take a little break and see if FA was up.
Also, obsessing weirdly about numbers.... but let's not talk about that.

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

Fauxhammer — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 04:36:33 -0700

This was my favorite Freakangels episode to date. And fuck Luke's pants! He gets to do the Baby Elephant Walk of Shame for FreakRoofie-ing that poor girl.

As for how I'm doing: I am off work until Tuesday. This is good.

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

mister hex — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 04:41:25 -0700

I thought Warren loved us.

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

2zen2 — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 04:43:04 -0700

It's nice to see at least some FA in actual combat mode. I appreciate Alice more and more - she really wants a piece of Luke. But will the law-breaker get punished?

As a side note, Luke is a real wanker if he has to mind-f&ck a girl to get her to drop her pants. I mean, seriously, he should have been getting laid left and right with that sized tool.

My day is just starting. Last day of boss on vacation - which means I have to do all the work I've been putting off all week. *sigh* I blame twitter.

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

Dee_Noir — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 04:43:56 -0700

It looks like a trial is in order, but do the FAs really have it in them to kill one of their own? Possibly, but not everyone will approve; I see dissent and trouble coming up.

I'm still anxious for a huge issue-spanning awesome battle like at the end of HP book 5. That'll be worth waiting for.

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

sneak046 — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 04:54:09 -0700

Another fine episode, anybody else feel a little pathos for poor little Luke, all those awesome powers and he still has to brainwash girls into letting him shag them..perhaps he shouldv'e taken a leaf out of Sirkka's books in finding playthings/sexual partners...she doesn't seem to have any problems in that department, and doesn't seem to bother the other FA's in the process..

About my week - well the boss is away now for a couple of weeks, which means I'm in charge. Mwahahahahaha. This should be interesting

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

Twobyfour — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 04:57:52 -0700

Sometimes I wish things were more black and white with Warren. The need for vengeance is there but he's much too good of a writer to take the easy and just way out.. Luke will pay but it will come with a cost to the family. It amazes me how much these Friday pages have come to mean to me.

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

johnjones — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 05:01:54 -0700

I mean, seriously, he should have been getting laid left and right with that sized tool.

It does bring new meaning to the term "Freakangel package." Yes, I went there, sue me.

I love Alice even more now. Girl's made of sheer determination.

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

Berserker — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 05:03:44 -0700

I've been waiting on a paycheck of some sort for the last three weeks - two weeks longer than I was supposed to. As compensation, something really interesting might be around the corner for me (but for now I have to be cryptic about that...)

So, no questions now about what Luke's been getting about - if there ever really was - and what's more, it looks like Mark's exactly no better.

It's amusing he has to wonder aloud why everyone keeps hitting him.

It's even more amusing to see how much trouble someone with so much power has keeping something like a pair of pants.

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

Dee_Noir — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 05:10:48 -0700

@Furious - But just think how simple an early (i.e. Ep,4) Luke costume would be. All you'd need is a green jacket, a cardboard box and an urge to flash your junk.

So now, the reaction 'Oh dear God' is just another Freakangel mystery solved.

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

emsie — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 05:14:03 -0700

Awesome as always, the pair of you.
Paul, I take back what I said about convenient placement last ep, muahahah XD

Seriously cool. I so hoped the off-screen voice would be Connor. I know he's secretly badass. ^_~

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

Winther — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 05:23:11 -0700

Once again, yay Alice.
Definitely expect that some disagreement will arise with regard to what to do with Luke. Be interesting to see where the various FA's will stand. As of now, we've got Caz indicating that she'd be for doing away with him - I read her as speaking for Sirkka as well, but I'm not sure - and then there's Kirk and Karl, who have already shown willingness to kill their own when certain lines are crossed. Kait's general attitude would suggest that she might be on board for some dishing of hard justice. I'd imagine Miki would protest, certainly against outright execution, and maybe mental neutering as well. Arkady's obviously done a number on Luke before, but as for killing him? I dunno. Jack's with Kirk and Alice in the Luke-Beat-Down-club, and has shown a healthy amount of disdain for him. KK, I can't really pin down. Memory's fuzzy, have we seen her interact much with him? Connor's usually very compassionate and calm, and I could see him resisting the notion of killing Luke.

Wild card really would seem to be how much the simple fact of Luke being "one of them" weighs against his crimes.

ETA:
Week was pretty good. An old friend from college, who's lived in Vancouver the past 2 years, and hasn't been home at all in about a year was visiting the old country, and Tuesday evening a handful of us got together to see her. It was probably the best time I've had in months, just plain sitting and talking and laughing, reminiscing about old times and telling each other about the stuff we've gotten up to since then. Great evening.

Also, with June 17 gone by, I'm officially 24.

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

Berserker — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 05:26:11 -0700

Also, it was nice to see Alice right in there in the middle of the telekinetic mayhem, rushing to cover the other girl. She's got a temper, but she's all right.

I'm also sort of hoping new girl gives Luke the clap.

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

johnjones — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 05:41:30 -0700

I'm wondering what exactly Luke did to the girl he was raping. It wasn't really mind control, from what I saw. It looked more like he'd done a kind of psychic lobotomy on her and was using her as a human blowup sex doll.

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

accela — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 05:43:38 -0700

I'm wondering what exactly Luke did to the girl he was raping. It wasn't really mind control, from what I saw. It looked more like he'd done a kind of psychic lobotomy on her and was using her as a human blowup sex doll.

It's interesting cause I just can't see the pleasure in that... seems like it's not worth pissing off the other FAs for.

Anyways I'm gonna go make a wild assumption that Luke isn't actually going to be killed. I really doubt it with Conner around, lol, that guy.

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

manikmoon — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 05:43:52 -0700

Epic episode, Freakangel vs Freakangel!!

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

twitch_ramirez — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 05:44:40 -0700

Jumping on the Alice bandwagon....heheheehhe good going and I do appreciate your resolve.
Two; count them, two FA's getting their power off. Exciting times coming for dear ol' Luke. Can you say 'the tree of woe' ?
He will find post dry London a very bad place for a psi-raper.

I am alive yet another week, had the prosthetic replaced on Wednesday; that was total joy! Not.

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

Lain — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 05:45:14 -0700

I registered purely to say:

Massive Penis

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

warrenellis — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 05:48:52 -0700

It doesn't look that big to me.

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Tichrimo — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 05:52:31 -0700

Attaboy, Warren. "Draw what you know," so to speak?

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Winther — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 05:54:11 -0700

Well, I guess it depends on whether Luke's a grower or a shower.

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Welland — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 05:59:11 -0700

He was probably going a little flaccid at that point, that’s what a bin lid to the face will do to a mans love muscle.

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government spy — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 06:12:08 -0700

I can't see Luke being killed, not by the group as a whole, anyway. The FA had to have a board meeting to discuss saving total strangers that were trying to kill them. If they didn't kill Mark, and they wouldn't kill total strangers with malicious intent, wanting to kill Luke will only be more discussion. Like most "Democracies," I see the FA arguing it, and trying to find a moral solution, meanwhile someone (or two someones, Kirk and Karl, I'm looking at you) might just take action on their own after everyone agrees that another exile will suffice.

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

LBA — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 06:14:04 -0700

So much for all of us who were theorizing that we weren't seeing what we were seeing.

excellent episode, can't wait to see if Alice does somehow get her hands on Luke

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Silvith — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 06:15:16 -0700

I've been thinking, as Arkady says somewhere the FA know little of the limit to their powers: possibly Luke discovered how to make limbs grow (bigger)? I still find myself quite shocked.. and I'm no stranger to comics.. ^^

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

Welland — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 06:21:31 -0700

When you think about it Alice is pretty hardcore, she just seen what two FA's can do and she still fancies a crack at Luke on her own, she is a proper manc that one.

Also she gets a little dose of his mind fuck powers there too nice one girl

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

Fauxhammer — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 06:32:22 -0700

What's scary and cool about the whole thing is "Freakangels Business". It sets them apart from the other Whitechapleros as much as their powers and archetypal personae. It's almost Olympian, the way they've set up their own morality. Obviously, the other non-Luke* FA's do right by the people, but it's almost like how I take care of my cats.

*Is it coincidence that "Luke" and "Loki" are near-homophones?

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

johnjones — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 06:32:37 -0700

Also she gets a little dose of his mind fuck powers there too nice one girl

I doubt it. It looked more like he telekinetically "punched" her in the throat.

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mister86 — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 06:33:41 -0700

I like Alice more and more as this comic goes on. She's a great character.

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

city creed — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 06:34:16 -0700

right. well. cock then.

agreed with Fauxhammer, I think this is maybe my favourite ep yet.
And not (just) for the cock.

Those frames showing the freakpressure building, overwhelming and unstoppable, were brilliant. Underlined the gravity of the situation nicely. Amazing art skillz to give such a strong impression of an intangible, non zap-boom power. I swear I felt my ears pop.

Final frame should come with audio of an ominously tolling bell attached.

Freakangels: Squishing rapists into the pavement since '09, fuck yeah.

I can't help but think that not all the FA are going to be of the same mind on this one. Will be interested to see how it plays out, who will counsel mercy, or at least, an alternative to immediate execution? My money is on: not Kait.

Great episode.

eta: I'm not sure I've mentioned this before, but: yay alice!

Also: cock

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

Magnulus — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 06:52:54 -0700

On the topic of big cocks; A penis that has just recently lost its erection will still maintain a lot of its girth. Considering that, it's not really that spectacular. Take that as you wish. Either I'm trying to big myself up, or I'm making a valid observation, or I'm just not willing to let a rapist be complemented on his rape-tool. ^_^

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

Peter Kelly — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 06:54:55 -0700

I'm honestly not sure what I enjoyed more, this week's episode or Citruscreed's posting.

had a mostly good week, though had one of the night guys in my dept at work forget to lock up for the second time. Had to take away his key, which HUGELY decreases the amount of work he can actually do.
Can't see him lasting another week. (am I nuts for thinking locking a door is a given, and doesn't require a regular reminder?)

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

rickiep00h — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 07:02:40 -0700

The thing is is that now I can't comment on how many people are talking about Luke's wang without talking about Luke's wang. Y'all are entirely too wang-centric. Considering, though, how often we've seen Luke without his pants, I'm surprised this is the first we've seen of it.

Did they just squeeze the air out of him, boa constrictor-style? That's how it looked to me.

Great ep, and I like the implication Caz makes, like you could add "Had we killed him, he wouldn't have done what he did to you." And then there'd be no Alice in Whitechapel! Sad panda!

As far as my week, it's been pretty "eh." I finished a comic project only to hate the ending five minutes later, so that needs a rewrite, and I decided yesterday I was tired of futzing with my XP/Windows 7 dual-boot, so I wiped my system drive to put straight XP on it so I can use Pro Tools. I'm also waiting for my artist to get back from a trip to Alabama (don't ask) so I can see some character sketches for my first project... so that's exciting.

Oh, and my daughter's been at the in-laws', three states away, for a week and a half and won't be back til July. You'd think I'd be spending my time better, but most of it is being spent admiring the silence and calm atmosphere. Which gets broken up by the striking union guys across the bridge, honking and whooping and hollering.

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

cruciferous_rex — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 07:06:34 -0700

Go Caz!

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

James Puckett — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 07:08:19 -0700

Wheee, big cock in comics! About time somebody threw us homos a bone, errr, floppy…whatever.

Seriously tho, I have been want to see them go all Domu on somebody. Way cool.

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

Dotcommunist — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 07:33:21 -0700

lol at everyone going mental over Luke's cock. It's a drawing of a penis ffs, I stopped laughing at that in GCSE Biology (that's a lie, cocks are still funny)

I'm still interested in the hierarchy/relationship structure of the FA's and will be interested to see how this situation articulates that. I recall Karl and Connor (was it?) conversing in the veg garden about how they were the freak angels who got things DONE.

But also, Doc FA (I'm so shit with names, irl and not irl) provided a moral compass when some of the Freak Angels wanted to lay the smackdown on those desperate refugees. It will be interesting to see how this Luke situation is dealt with. The FA's are essentially running a post apocalypse style commune of shared dependencies etc.

Dealing with wrongdoers often poses the most difficult moral quandaries for self contained communes (A semi-hidden bunch of super-human violet eyed hardcases adds another layer of complexity :) )

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

Sonny — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 07:56:16 -0700

Wait, the Freakangels clan believes in capital punishment?? This should get interesting...

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E0157H7 — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 07:56:19 -0700

Luke - living proof that there is a marked difference between knowing things and being smart.

And I knew that his junk was going to be flapping around eventually. The goddamn stars were aligned and the tea leaves were jabbering incessantly this morning.

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

seanarcher — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 08:14:24 -0700

You know, this made me this made me think of an African tribe I read about a while ago.

Apparently when some transgression against the tribe is made by one of its members, they put that person in the middle of a circle. Everyone in the tribe comes and, one by one, they each list off every good and decent thing they can think of about the transgressor. No mention is made of the crime. Simply the person is reminded by each person in their lives about all the good shit they've ever done. Then when the ceremony is over, the person is embraced by the tribe and allowed to return to their lives. The rate of crime within this group is extremely low.

Of course, there's very little drama in all that. But I wonder what would happen to Luke if he was embraced and told his every living virtue instead of crushed under the weight of the Freakangels' wrath-y gravity.

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

clairefun — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 08:17:11 -0700

Brilliant, as ever. I'm excited to see what happens between the gang.
My week..yeah, s'okay. Had my first allotment-grown meal and looking forward to a summer of not buying crappy airmiled pesticidal food from the shops, at last the hard work comes into it's own. Plus hubby and I are planning our first holiday without the 4 year old, and we're thinking Dorset / Devon border (with maybe a River Cottage trip thrown in too) so that's kinda exciting. Aside from that, I've been buying up every item of clothing from Ebay that'll fit and or suit me, so that's been kind of fun. For me. Maybe not for hubby.

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

Ken Kreisel — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 08:24:47 -0700

I loved it. Finally he has a little bit of what's coming to him. Oh and I love the reference to the first episodes of Mark wiping her head. I was watching a prison show on NatGeo and one of the female prison guards said it only takes 10 pounds of direct pressure to break the human penis. God I hope they broke his.

Oh yeah and not to mention the artwork, as usual amazing. LOVE the panel of the two F.A's joining force and having them off of the panel frame was brilliant to show the signifigance of the event.

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

orwells_eyes — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 08:24:49 -0700

Well, Luke is a healthy boy. In one way at least.

I like the notion of debate between the Freakangels on the topic of how to deal with one of their own who isn't mark (more than a year in and we haven't seen him yet?) and yet is still "an issue".

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

bairdduvessa — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 08:35:15 -0700

beat down that mother f'ing rapist!

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

E0157H7 — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 08:40:04 -0700

@seanarcher - I doubt that Luke would give a damn. It seems like something that would work in a group of relatively equal peers, such as a small agriculture-based village. Luke, however, clearly has the Übermensch thing going on in his head, so even if the other Freakangles stood around and brought him up to speed, it probably would go right over his head. Getting the idea that he's too "good" to treat people like flies for him to pull the wings off across would probably be like trying to hammer a nail into armor plate.

So when he misbehaves, he gets spanked instead. Everyone understands pain.

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

thom_wong — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 08:44:14 -0700

Now this is one I'd like to see the script for....

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stsparky — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 09:09:07 -0700

Luke's been asking for this since birth. He got beat because he thought he was superior to Alice. I've got a feeling Luke is not the Whitechapel killer though.

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

SamRiedel — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 09:30:59 -0700

I will not comment as to my own views on capital punishment because that will bring up a whole shitstorm (and one that I have a feeling Warren will be dealing with in episodes to come).

But I have a strong hunch that part of the Freakangels package is the inability to kill another Freakangel. Back in episode 10 Karl said he "took [Mark] out from a hundred yards away....I heard his brain die." Maybe this means that Freakangels can hurt each other, but a direct mental attack can't kill them, at least not permanently.

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

diello — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 10:28:53 -0700

Damn, Luke... that's a nice FreakAngels package. And yes, very Corben-esque, flopping around like that ;)
I wonder when the "pro-life" FAs will get there... and will they be too late, or will Kait have someone new to practice her power on?
Also, I think Arkady should give him the rest of her overdose!

How am I doing? I'm finally beginning to look my age (28- and most people assume I'm not old enough to drink). I don't think it's a GOOD thing, per se...
Also, there is a murder of crows on my balcony. While I love crows, and their calls, I don't think it's a good sign.

So to reply
@ariana...
I think it IS possible to have a bad day after this episode... but at least I'll have it to look back on, fondly when the day is through.

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Berserker — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 10:43:27 -0700

@SamRiedel - We've also seen an instance of a Freakangel blocking out the rest with a tin foil hat.

To boot - although this is entirely speculation - they all seem to wield a slightly different panoply of abilities and talents based on their own interests and personalities. For instance, Arkady is teleporting people around easily, but none of the rest seem able to do that trick at all. So it's within the realm of the possible that he learned a trick the rest hadn't 'thought' of.
And being a total prick, he would have kept that to himself, wouldn't he?

( In fact, I'll even add that Luke has been obviously abusing his powers, but only a couple of the others seem to have even noticed, and only barely at that. So it's certainly possible that they have varied levels of sensitivity, and probably the ability to 'mask' themselves to some degree to boot - tin foil beanie or no. )

I think it's perfectly possible for them to kill one another.

I'm wondering though, just how EASY it would be, and what sort of collateral effects that sort of exchange would create...like say, flooding London?

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MelanieB — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 11:08:59 -0700

My thoughts are with Michael. Mark might have been an FA that explored his powers, like Arkady.

I wonder what a brain dying would sound/feel like. A sudden cut off of activity? That could be a tin foil hat, or Mark merely getting out of range...heck, even shielding, which the others seem to be unable to detect another using.

..Michael's edit beat me :p Props to that, Michael, haha!

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Ebony14 — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 11:09:51 -0700

@Michael Furious: You know, given what Arkady said, I wouldn't be surprised if Kirk's tinfoil hat does nothing at all and the blocking was all his own ability, developed unconsciously as a result of picking up on Sirkka's school and KK's tendency to shag boys from Lambeth.

Lovely episode all around.

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Ebony14 — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 11:10:41 -0700

Gah, Mark, not Kirk. Got my Freaks flipflopped.

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VertigoJones — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 11:22:42 -0700

I hope this fight isn't over.

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Indigo Rose — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 11:31:58 -0700

What I would love to see more than anything is Miki being the one to go all out on Luke. Sure, she's the doctor, and the one who wanted to spare all those people, but does that mean she tolerates rape? While you are probably right that she won't want them to kill Luke, I think we shouldn't be so quick to assume what the good doctor will think of this. It would be very pleasing to see her backing up Caz on this one, since Luke is victimizing women in that way... I have a hard time imagining a female doctor defending him at this point.

Also, the scene I want to see... The FreakAngels figuring out what to do with Luke, then Kait just walking in and shooting him in the head. Put down like a dog with rabies. I know some of us here are trying to avoid the capital punishment discussion, but this is a survival scenerio with a limited population and resources. Should we be feeding and sheltering someone who not only doesn't contribute, but actively attacks other members of the population? Is rehabilitation of any sort really likely to work? Glad the situation is ficticious, hate to make these calls in reality.

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BellaInara — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 11:37:45 -0700

Great episode. I agree with other comments above: I think that it says a lot about Alice that she is not afraid of Luke and that she had the decency to try and protect the other girl. Also, I think that most of the rest of the group would be for Capital Punishment. Here is my take:
I mean Caz and Sirkka are there and saying that they should have killed Mark when he messed with minds instead of exile.

Karl and Kirk had the same conversation earlier and we also saw that Karl has no love for Luke. We also saw that Kirk is not against killing a FA, if it best for the group.

Jack clearly does not like Luke.

I think that Kait would agree, based on her sense of justice.

Miki would probably be against it, as I think part of her guilt thing is not harming another person.

KK is at least disgusted with Luke, the others might be able to get her to join them.

Conner I think will side with Miki, towards not wanting to harm others, but I think that he could be convinced.

Arkady has her own wonderful way of handing out punishments. However, I think with her it is going to come down to the last vision that she had of the future. Perhaps she saw Luke's death (for a second time) and saw how killing him caused greater harm. I am most interested in Arkady's take on this situation.

In the end, do they really need everyone's agreement before handing out a punishment? Two alone can incapacitate Luke. Even with Mark, Kirk acted on his own.

As for today, it is my day off, so I am doing cleaning and laundry. I'm getting a desk later today and I've got to make room for it. And I've wrote far more here than I had planned.

Edited to add Jack. Forgot about him as he is off on his boat.

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Graizur — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 11:57:04 -0700

All your hate of this guy ends with one panel where the girl yells stop to the two FA attacking her Dom/Lover.

I don't really care. How do ethics exist in a world with Mind control?

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diello — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 11:57:21 -0700

I wonder if we're finally about to meet Mark, actually... he'd screen himself until he was right on top of them and come to Luke's rescue.

@Indigo
I don't think Miki will step up in support of this one... she won't want him dead (and she's really not going to want to have Luke on her slab), but I'm sure she'd want to dole out some other form of punishment. She IS a doctor... perhaps she can remove some things. And not tolerating rape is not the same as tolerating the murder of a rapist. Murder is still murder... now if he were to have an "accident" I think she might look the other way ;)
But I'll wager that your prediction scenario with Kait is spot on!

Also, I wonder if the FAs concentrated enough, they could just wipe Luke's mind of his powers. That way, he'd just be another asshole. It'd be fun if they could all transport his powers to Alice... but that's a total pipe dream, I know.

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Ferburton — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 12:08:49 -0700

Niiice, we get a psychic battle, with flying stuffs and crackling grounds and naked wankers.

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Tanuki — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 12:20:59 -0700

Doesn't look like Luke has any aces up his sleeve after all, it wasn't just the arrogance of thinking they'd allow him to get back to his raping, but telling them that only Arkady was strong enough to beat him? And saying he'd fix that?

. Arrogance is one thing, but being all mouth and ...er, no trousers, becomes highly delusional seeing he can't do the simple math that 2 beats 1, something he surely should have taken into account.

My question this week is was he always this broken? Or did being chased by the hoo-mans and breaking the world rob him of whatever sense he had?

And despite this being 'freakangels business' I'm wondering if Alice isn't going to find out exactly who did break the world from this, Luke and discretion obviously haven't been introduced.

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buzzorhowl — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 12:21:56 -0700

As far as Freakangels killing other Freakangels, sure, the powers might not be able to act on each other that way, but as IndigoRose pointed out, Kait has a gun. That sure would take the guesswork out of things.

Not that I'm necessarily advocating killing Luke. Or standing against it, either. I sure am curious to see where this goes in the next few episodes, though.

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Magnulus — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 12:22:05 -0700

All your hate of this guy ends with one panel where the girl yells stop to the two FA attacking her Dom/Lover.

You're saying that after he nudged a mortar on his fellow Angels and he very clearly tried to kill Alice and promised harm toward Arkady? Even if he's not a rapist (which is extremely fucking unlikely) he's still a right cunt.

EDIT:
Oh, and @seanarcher, I'd love to see some more about that African tribe if you could conjure it up. Seems fascinating!

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Indigo Rose — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 12:24:15 -0700

@diello
Yeah, that's why I phrased it as "you're probably right, but..." I just don't want people to assume it's going to be a black and white thing with her. Even if she doesn't want him killed, I don't think she's going to be soft on this. (At least I hope she won't, I will think less of her if she is imediately the pacifist. This situation is not the same as the last, where desperate/starving people were behaving desperately.) I just don't like the automatic assumption about her reaction.

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Paul Duffield — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 12:25:53 -0700

@Graizur
? Confusing comment. No such panel exists, and I think most people can guess quite easily that no such panel will exist.
Ethics arise in a world with mind control via the same principle as they exist now... do unto others as the majority would have done to themselves. It's really not that complex except for the odd exception where someone might profess to enjoy pain or lack empathy, but those cases are the exception and can be reasoned out individually. So, if a group of posses empathy, ethics exist via the most universally basic logic. If you can read minds, you can perhaps understand the pain and fear of others all the more, leading to even stronger ethics (and equally extreme exceptions involving various degrees of sociopathy or bdsm).

@Magnulus
You got it right about Luke's wang. It's just a post-erection swelling, I think I imagined him pretty average in the pants department.

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Dotcommunist — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 12:46:18 -0700

@Tanuki
'My question this week is was he always this broken?'

remember the flashback scenes earlier in the comic? Luke was a nasty master race sub nietzchian shit even then.

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Quixotess — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 13:03:38 -0700

I'm very wary of any television, movie, book, theatre, or comic form depiction of rape--many authors and artists seem to forget that their works are inevitably experienced by people who, you know, have actually been raped, and they will tend to treat rape as comedy, romance, soap-opera-type melodrama, or an opportunity for a kickass action sequence, amiright--to name just a few bad treatments.

I've been watching this Luke subplot develop, basically, waiting for things to go wrong. So far, some things have and most things haven't.

I am very pleased that the freakangels who have dealt with Luke's rapes and near-rapes have all been women. No opportunity for anyone to get their macho on. I like that Alice acknowledges her sense of violation and continuing trauma from Mark's mind control. I like that the freakangels are taking Luke's crime very seriously. I like how a rapist is portrayed--a smart guy, who has had girlfriends, who generally seems to be sexually successful, and who expects continued sexual success, someone who is, in fact, nominally a protagonist or with the protagonists. And who rapes, or intends to rape, more than once. (I certainly prefer it to, say, Gaiman's fondness for rapists as thugs with knives, or other brutes, and for whom rape seems be a great trope to add "atmosphere.") I also totally like showing Luke's junk; I think avoiding that would be an undeserved nod to his dignity.

I am rather worried about the rape victim in this scene. I suppose it's not problematic yet, given that Luke was a dangerous and immediate threat to all present, but so far the story is completely ignoring her. She needs to be taken care of, sensitively and compassionately. She needs medical attention from Miki and from Sirkka. I'm not saying all of that ought to be portrayed in the comic, but it would seem...problematic...for the comic to treat her as a prop and not to have even a panel or something dealing with her, because, hey, she was only important to set off this confrontation/plot with Luke--treating her as a prop is, after all, what Luke has just done, and it would be icky in the extreme to have that echoed by the story. Even something like "you stay behind and take care of her, I'll get Luke over to Kirk" would be good; I'm a little afraid to see all three of them popping off and forgetting this woman.

Still. I'm cautiously pleased. So far this treatment of rape is much better than I'm used to. Thank you for being responsible and respectful.

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mister hex — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 13:23:21 -0700

@ Quixotess - As seen in Vol. 1, when Alice herself arrived, having been messed with mentally by Mark (and physically, too, judging her reaction), Connor and Sirkka "cleansed" her mind. I imagine they'll do the same for this poor girl.

I apologize if this gets a bit ... fan-boyish but ... what ARE the powers of the FreakAngel Package?

Telekinesis - they can all do that. Telepathy - again, that's all of them.
ARKADY alone can teleport. KAIT can ... re-animate dead things? Luke is a skilled mind-manipulator, as was Mark.

And the TK seems seismic, like they create mini-earthquakes or something.

One final note - I don't want to see the book turn into 'Lil FreakAngels' but I sure would like to see more of what they were like as children. Luke, especially.

And I thought Warren loved us.

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Indigo Rose — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 13:25:28 -0700

@Quixotess

I agree that it is good to see a rapist depicted as a seemingly intelligent person who isn't using physical force to get what he wants (telepathy as a metaphor for the psychological manipulation many rapists/molestors use?). To create the popular image of a rapist as a physical brute, rather than the "intelectual" type that Luke appears to be, is actually quite dangerous.

I don't think you have too much to worry about. Even from a purely mechanical point of view, I don't think Warren would leave that kind of a "loose-end", with them just popping off to take care of Luke and leaving her there (that would be bad writing regardless of the subject at hand)... unless it was immediately followed by Miki throwing the biggest fit ever because they didn't take care of the victim. Besides, Sirkka is there, she's the psychological/emotional healer type. I expect that girl will be well taken care of.

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diello — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 13:29:14 -0700

@Quixotess
I never really paid attention before, but you're right... there is a terrible trope for rapists, being thugs with guns and knives, though I can't say I'm glad to see intelligent characters, Luke included, turned out to be rapists (my own was my black-belt, macho-dick boyfriend). And thinking on this sort of trend, now I'm wondering if Connor is the Whitechapel Murderer.
I also like seeing the women taking care of this business (where HAVE all the guys gone in this comic??).

Also, page 5 shows Alice shuffling the girl out of danger. I'm sure she'll be taken care of next week. But first thing's first... get rid of the threat.

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BellaInara — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 13:29:17 -0700

@ mister hex

I agree, FAs as kids. We've had hints and references, but I'd love to see more.

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Tanuki — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 14:12:27 -0700

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SaiFai — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 14:15:50 -0700

I don't see why the FreakAngels are so freaked out by rape. (No pun intended.) As Alice has already stated the act of Mind Control/Manipulation is a form of rape and probably worse then actual physical rape. With this in mind the FreakAngels preform acts of rape by probing into peoples minds in an offhanded manner. True, while they may not force them to do anything, they are most likely manipulating their mind in much more subtle and passive ways. Sirkka's Harem may be an example of this. Luke as the most amoral and I assume because of the earlier chapters and philosophically minded person in the group see no difference between physical rape and what they normally do with their powers.

I am in no way condoning Luke's actions, but what should be analyzed is what is the rape in the scene. Why doesn't Luke just hold down the women with the force and get the "business" on, why go through the trouble of making her want him when he could probably just wipe her memory afterwards. I think that it's because it's the fundamental skill set that each FA leans towards. (Not to mention draws less attention to Luke.) Luke specializes in Emotion manipulation and as stated by Kirk, I think, feeds of people's love in some manner. Since the women probably loves him in some manner due to mind control, the rape is the Mind Control and not the Physical act.

So far from what I've seen Luke isn't a Pariah by choice. Everyone actively hates the "Smart Guy" like they are all Jerk Jocks beating on the Nerd. Luke seems to rub people the wrong way just by being himself, and he's that Friend the guy they wonder why they are friends with. I don't know if something bad happened between the FA and Luke or whether they blame him for convincing all of them to "End the World". It may just be their law, 'No Mind Control unless threatened by Death.' that is pissing them off so much. Either way killing him would just prove that the FA are no better then Luke himself. That they are more Nazi-minded then he ever was by killing the weakest link and making their race clean once more.

Maybe Luke jumped off the Slippery Slop, maybe in a similar manner as Mark, but it seems that all the FA are fast approaching it.

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rickiep00h — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 14:18:24 -0700

@diello - By my count, there is a 50/50 split in total Freakangels: six male and six female. Considering one of the guys is banished, Kirk and Karl are rather hermit-like, and Jack is often out collecting, I'm not surprised we don't see the guys all that much. That really leaves Luke and Connor as the guys you're likely to see out-and-about. Whereas most of the women are out doing and building. I'm fine with that.

Everyone gets their time to shine in Whitechapel. Right now its the ladies (and one tremendous asshole).

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warrenellis — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 14:19:24 -0700

I am rather worried about the rape victim in this scene.

These 6 pages = about 25 seconds of realtime? We're not there yet.

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Darkest — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 14:23:01 -0700

Seems to me they either telekinetically crushed him or reversed the gravity on him. Akira style.

As towards "leniency" we can see two things first Mark was kicked out of WhiteChapel for trying to mind control an army of people so they will take a dim view of that. The other is that we have seen that the FreakAngels do something akin to voting. This could be the first time that we see anything close to a unanimous decision. That is unless the social situation is even more complex than we have seen or that there are social mechanics we haven't seen.

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Quixotess — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 14:28:03 -0700

@Ellis:

Thank you, that does make me feel better. *relaxes*

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SaiFai — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 14:34:33 -0700

Huh, 25 seconds, that's a pretty fast fight. Man I hope Luke isn't executed. The FA are weakened enough by the loss of the one member.

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VertigoJones — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 14:40:59 -0700

Thats a bit like saying Godzilla is weakened by getting the Tokyo tower dropped on him. The only threat to the Freakangels are Freakangels.
Luke has already stated that noone, except Arkady could take him down one on one, and was pointed out to be pretty much in a position to see everyone else as bugs by Kait, some issues ago, please forgive me if I'm paraphrasing, but I think that included the other members of the FA. I'd be suprised if he's down for the count yet. Good villians don't go down as easy as that.

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cjtremlett — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 14:59:56 -0700

Alice got the victim out of physical danger. I'm sure more than one person will be helping the victim once Luke has been dealt with (or incapacitated in order to be ultimately dealt with later). Sirkka and Miki most prominently, I expect. And Alice. She's sort of a bridge between the FAs and the norms, I think. She knows about the FAs and is willing to stand up to them, even knowing what they can do. But she is still normal. It will be interesting to see her reaction when (if?) she finds out that the FAs are responsible for the Crash.

We haven't seen very much of the other normals, really. Sirkka and Caz seem to be the only ones who have been working with groups of non-FAs on a regular basis. Probably says something about them, and how they each see their relationship with the rest of the world.

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diello — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 15:19:11 -0700

@saifai
Seriously?
The FAs seem to pretty well keep to their own (and each others') minds, and not so much the outsiders' (excpet Alice), and as long as they don't mind, I don't think it's considered mind-rape. And they can't seem to really control who goes into whose mind with each other (I don't think KK intended to let Karl- or was it Kirk?- know that she'd slept with a Lambeth boy, and he wears the tinfoil hat to keep all the jibber-jabber in his head down). I think their telekinesis is more like, they're all in one big room or something, they all know they're around, and can see everything they're doing, and if they want a direct line, it's as simple as flipping open your mobile.

Why doesn't Luke just hold down the women with the force and get the "business" on,
Because that struggle would cause quite a commotion, wouldn't it?

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Val A Lindsay II — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 15:27:56 -0700

Ah, it's raining outside. Makes everything smell like dirt and green, growing things. It's killing my busking, but what the Hell. I'm enjoying this weather..

Woohoo! Awesome episode. I think Luke is under the impression that the rest of the Freakangels are lilly-livered, unwilling to actually kill one of their own as demonstrated by the leniency towards his past actions and towards Mark who may had done worse. i'd say we'll find out soon enough. Arkady may just leave him in a coma, unable to think of nothing else but escape from something inside his brain.

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inizitu — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 15:51:40 -0700

Dear Paul and Warren:

*SMOOOOOCH*

Love, me

@Quixotess
Yes. Lots of what you said. I was rather scared, too. I think it's important to deal with rape in fiction (not sure who I'm stealing this from but: fairy tales are important because they tell us dragons can be slain) but it's damn difficult to do without being a schmuck to real-life victims.

I think Ellis will come through. He handles female characters, overall, with respect and honesty, in my opinion, an ability I think is still pretty rare in comics, or any sort of action heavy-fiction.
I believe he writes some of the best women in fiction, period (Alice and Channon from Transmet are the two that immediately come to mind for me).

So, yes. Trust in Warren.

Although, I have to say, this issue feels like a teaser to me. Last week was such a...well, bin lid to the psyche, so much happened (and they stuffed it all into about 2 pages. Aaaand of into uberdork: Comic writers just amaze me, sometimes. I swear, comics, done right, are the most powerful and effective narrative medium that exists. Words, pictures, and no budget constraints. Infinitely versatile. Stopping now.) that this week is almost like we get to take a mental breath before next week- where I expect we'll get the bin lid again.

*happysigh*

Friday is the best day of the week.

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Gilgurth — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 16:00:04 -0700

Is it just me, or do they seem more concerned about him basicly 'pushing' her mind than what he's doing with her body? I'm not saying they're oblivious to it, but the mind control seems to be their focus.

I have a feeling in a/this post 'freakpocalypse' world, they've all seen much worse done, willingly and unwillingly by people to survive, or just for kicks. While not minimized, I doubt rape is out of the ordinary, if not expected in the life of the 'have nots'. That being said, let's hope someone hurls him by the sack into the Thames, with their TK...

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mister hex — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 16:39:44 -0700

So, yes. Trust in Warren.

I told you he loves us. Despite his better judgement.

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Berserker — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 16:41:07 -0700

@Ebony14 - I'd just been playing with that idea about the tin foil hat being a ruse.

The question of how to handle Luke is going to be touchy indeed, regardless of the feelings of any given 'angel.

Look at it logistically:

If they let him go and he joins forces with Mark out there? They've got twice the potential trouble waiting to come back for revenge. Even if they don't team up, they've got yet another super-menace out there, obviously capable of marshalling/controlling whoever else is out there and using them en masse against Whitechapel.
They don't even have to cooperate, per se. As soon as one rogue strikes the other can take advantage of that to split the remaining 'angels numbers between fronts. Classic tactic.

They have a hard decision coming up.

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Berserker — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 16:44:06 -0700

Also - has anyone else brought up the curious fact that both of the 'bad' Freakangels are the only ones with Biblical names?

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Dotcommunist — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 16:50:57 -0700

@Dotcommunist yeah, he was shown to have that streak and seems to be the one who planted the idea for the FA strike back big time, but was he a rapist even then? Did he have any awareness of consequence? Was he trying this shit even back then and maybe one of the causes of them being hunted?

Or in the brave new world has he just gone 'fuck it I'll do what I want'? Seeing as how he doesn't seem capable of remembering to put pants on without a keeper I wonder how back before the cataclysm the others regarded him. They've said he was the smartest but haven't qualified that with 'for a total skeevy rapist fuck up who almost got us killed in the first place' I wonder if he was broken or just born bad.

I don't think anyone is BORN bad. Luke, in the flashback scene, was certainly well on the road to being what he is now. I think he may have envisioned some great 'natural order' where he and his fellow freak angels lorded it over the cattle. The apocalypse caused bought those ideas crashing down for him and he has had to deal with the idea that violet-eyed superpower does not make one a Master Race. Of course he is enough of a narcissistic parasite to project the failure of the glorious event onto the other freak angels. Typical 'i wuz betrayed!' behaviour from someone who has seen a grand scheme go awry.

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The Hypno Bedhead — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 16:58:59 -0700

Suffering from a terrible cold over here so this makes little sense, blame the drugs.

One thing I've been curious about is, what happens when a Freakangel dies? They're all connected to each other in some way and all the Luke trouble's got me thinking about that. They dodged that bullet with Mark but if Luke keeps at it...It can't be as simple as one Freakangel expiring with no "mental feedback" whatsoever.

Also, I found a comic book store that had the 1st hardcover and it struck me as odd to hold in my hands a comic I'm so used to reading on a screen.

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Dotcommunist — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 17:06:28 -0700

In midwitch cuckoos they were all wiped out before maturity by a massive bomb. I'd speculate from there to say that a bullet to the dome, or being blown apart, would cause complete death. I don't see them as immortals. As to the neural feedback issue, well, I don't see it being a problem with a quick kill. Different if they left Luke gut-shot and pleading for days.

I'm not placing any credence in some sort of Freak Angel meta-consciousness that exists independently from them. Yes they can call up enough power to break everything when interlinked, but I don't see any indication of dependancy wrt powers

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SaiFai — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 18:29:13 -0700

@diello
Yeah, I was just noticing there is a certain duality in FA morality. Basically anything goes, with the exception of their one law. They can kill dozens of people in gruesome fashion (while very cool looking) without batting an eyelash. I get there is a certain survivalist stand point because of the post drowning of London, but there were some FA seriously considering killing a hundred people just because they could cause trouble later. Also it seems they have no qualms with stealing memories, skills, information, and general motivation from peoples minds.

They seemingly have no problem what-so-ever invading peoples minds, which if considered logically, is a massive invasion of privacy, trust, ect. True so far they have shown to keep mostly to themselves, but they are known to do these things/have done them in the past. What they do could be considered mind-rape, though it is not sexual in the least, the FA can take just about anything from a persons mind through force. Most people don't mind because I believe for the exception of Alice no one knows they are actively doing theses things.

The point I was trying to make earlier was that Luke, most likely, doesn't care or see a difference between doing these routine function (at least to them) and bending someone's emotions to his will. KK, just sort of laughs when Luke invaded random (Females he wanted to sleep with) people's Dreams to give a lecture on philosophy (and seduce them). Luke is doing pretty much the same now, by putting a charm spell on some random female (true from what I can tell the current method was more direct), and everyone starts flying off the handle. All things considered rape isn't even a crime that is normally punishable with death. Then to add we don't even know what he did to the women, he may have did something akin to having her drink a love potion. (A common fantasy date-rape drug)

The FA all seemed like tough individuals, yet two were deeply emotionally charged about this recent event, and they are profiling Luke as a Mark which while not completely unfair, seems to be jumping the gun a bit. I don't think that death is suitable to the crime (Haha, no such thing as guilty before proven innocent. He was caught red handed anyway.) and that killing Luke would be a gross injustice.

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Dotcommunist — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 18:51:00 -0700

The freak angels are pragmatists. As has been seen they are interested in protecting their sphere of influence 'you don't get to come here and hurt people and take what they have' (paraphrased).

the Push isn't really a charm-spell type thing from what I've understood of the comics-it is an overt mental compulsion that all the FA's had agreed not to engage in. Luke's dream invasion didn't cross that line but overt mind/body rape does.

as for emotionally charged vs tough, well forgive me if I cry 'false dichotomy'. As in any group or individual aspects of both vie for supremacy in the group and in the individuals. Don't forget the debate that went on about letting the cholera ridden newcomers into whitechapel. That's the realism aspect, these violet-eyed ubermensch are still very human. With all the blessing/curse that involves

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SaiFai — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 19:07:14 -0700

Good points, perhaps I'm the only one, but I just thought because of how pragmatic they were Caz and Sirkka would have reacted differently. That whole tough vs. emotional reaction wasn't intended to be a dichotomy, just thought perhaps the scene was too melodramatic (not sure if that's the word I'm looking for). I'm not quite sure, I'll just settle for the fact I probably don't know enough about these characters yet to gauge how they are going to react.

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mister hex — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 19:13:21 -0700

@ SaiFai

rape isn't even a crime that is normally punishable with death.

It should be. In my humble opinion.

KK I think, will be ... not on Luke's side, necessarily but "in the wind", as they say. (Did the boy from Lambeth Road REALLY want to shag her? Didn't she go "Sleep" in the very first pages? How's that different from Luke, on any realistic level?) So will Miki. (She wants to Save The World She Destroyed, does she not?) Kirk (the one in the tower) and Karl (the one with the strawberries) will vote Death. So will Jack. Connor's a Wild Card. Kait will kill him outright. With a gun. In the interests of Justice (whatever THAT is.) Caz is the Witness and the Accuser. Alice, sadly, doesn't matter. (This is FreakAngels business.) Arkady's the REAL WILD CARD. (She's the only one Luke is afraid of and he's not afraid of her enough.) Sirkka doesn't like Luke. (Why, exactly? If she's got a harem, she won't let him play? That would piss him off, for sure.)

See how the spectre of Mark hangs over the whole thing? And we've never even seen Mark yet.

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Purple Wyrm — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 19:31:06 -0700

@ mister hex

Alice, sadly, doesn't matter.

I wouldn't count her out of the judgment process yet. She's an 'honorary' FreakAngel, and probably has the balls to at least try and bargain that up to having a say. She's also a witness, and a victim of similar mind manipulation herself. I suspect she's not going to sit around and let the FAs sort everything out without trying to get involved herself - whether she'll succeed is another matter.

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diello — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 23:10:39 -0700

@Michael
has anyone else brought up the curious fact that both of the 'bad' Freakangels are the only ones with Biblical names?
What, you've never heard of the Book Of Kokokoho?

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indysleaze — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 23:44:01 -0700

@Mister Hex

It should be. In my humble opinion.

It's not for a very good reason - if rape carries the same punishment as murder, why should a rapist leave his victim alive as a witness to his crimes?

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dorkmuffin — Sat, 20 Jun 2009 01:18:33 -0700

@Michael
has anyone else brought up the curious fact that both of the 'bad' Freakangels are the only ones with Biblical names?
What, you've never heard of the Book Of Kokokoho?

Depends if Jack is short for anything. It's usually a nickname for John.

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mister hex — Sat, 20 Jun 2009 01:55:18 -0700

I don't want to start a debate about capital punishment, really I don't. Such debates usually end up with shouting and slammed doors and hurt feelings over hypothetical situations. So I added the qualifier that twas my own humble opinion. Which I repeat - this is my opinion - Rape should be punishable by death. Until such time as I am recognized as the Legitimate Ruler Of Earth, it shall remain my opinion and not official policy.

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BellaInara — Sat, 20 Jun 2009 05:44:47 -0700

Here is my personal take on capital punishment, then I promise that I'll be quiet. I took a year's worth of Criminal Justice classes a while back when I was going for a degree. My professor was highly opinionated, Conservative and a defense attorney to boot. He opened the class with a discussion on capital punishment.

I was for capital punishment, as I feel that there are just some crimes that warrant lethal force.

He made a really good point against. Simply that it costs tax-payers 3 times more to kill a criminal than it takes to keep him in prison for life. All due to the multiple appeals that are guaranteed with a death sentence. As innocent people have been found through improvement in technology, it would be a crime for the state to not offer the appeals. We all agree that it should be the right person that dies for the crime.

I still think that there are certain crimes that warrant the death penalty. Like crimes against children, serial and spree killers, and a few other cases. While rape is a horrible crime (and one that you don't just "accidentally" do), I don't think that it warrants death unless it is a serial rapist. It just costs too much. Throw the bastard in jail and let him deal with the consequences there.

Anyways, my last two cents on the subject.

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Dotcommunist — Sat, 20 Jun 2009 06:39:17 -0700

fwiw I don't think state sanctioned murder is acceptable under any circumstance. Miscarriages and 'cost' aside (love it when money gets bought into discussions that hinge on the sanctity of human life), what moral virtue can be found in a state that condemns murder while engaging in it?

just my two p's worth :)

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diello — Sat, 20 Jun 2009 11:29:00 -0700

@Mister Hex
I'd vote for you, so long as I get to be your right-hand (wo)man... and that we never EVER let on that rapists are being put to death when caught (because if they find out, they'll probably just go the whole nine and kill their victims, too, making it harder for them to be identified). And to cut back on tax-payers' money, we use the Kait method.
Also, I think rapex should be brought back.

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dorkmuffin — Sat, 20 Jun 2009 12:21:54 -0700

@Diello, sounds like someone actually invented Neil Stephenson's dentata. But, you know, failed.

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MelanieB — Sat, 20 Jun 2009 12:35:32 -0700

China has a great cost-effective death-p system out there. 5-6 cents a bullet.

Can of worms aside.. I pondered a bit while washing dishes (kinda like being on the toilet, for some folks), I do hope we get to see more of Luke's history. What made him a scum-bag in the first place? What elements could possibly bring out Luke's greatness as a FA and a human being?

I remember quite vividly how I didn't like Alice when she made her first appearance. That slowly changed and now there's "atta-girl" praise about her on the forums (I chime in as well). Maybe putting Luke in a spot where he gains an epiphany down this long and winding road would be more fulfuilling for the readers? At least moreso than him being killed or punished in a way that'd take away his development as a character. Right now, all he is is the jerk. It's like the rape victim. Neither Luke or her should be shoved off in a corner before they're really fleshed out.

Bugger, it's 5am so most likely there'll be typos up above all over and i'm too sleepy to review all that.. Teach me better than to have a nightcap well after bedtime.

-Mel

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RobAGD — Sat, 20 Jun 2009 13:40:59 -0700

Lots of interesting thoughts here.

I would like to point out a little something to those that think jail can be a real forum of punishment for someone outside the acceptable social norms. You are putting people into an environment where everyone is outside the norms ( I throw the guards into that group as well, they are willingly locking them selves in with these people ).

You can't because of "human rights" work inmates like they use to when jail was a "really bad place to be"

Now as a direct relation to that, you see it in all the cops shows where the suspect is told "Police STOP" and they just run. Now if they KNEW they were really running a risk of say, being shot for fleeing an officer or maybe a bit of a tune up later after being caught do you think people would tend to stop running ?

It is like raising a child, if you don't actually punish when rules are broken there are no boundaries learned and you end up with a will full child that doesn't obey or do what they are told.

Outside of that big thumbs up for Alice :) too bad she is a plant for Mark :D

-Robert

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Gekko — Sat, 20 Jun 2009 14:06:19 -0700

Has anybody realised that in countries where there is no capital punishment, crime rates are NOT higher? And on the other end, countries who use death sentence don't have a lower criminal rate. It means death sentence is not the proper answer to lower crimes, insofar as fear of death sentence doesn't stop people to commit crimes. Thus, death sentence is useless.
The point is people certainly oughto be protected from crime. Protection should be the answer. Not revenge.

It is like raising a child, if you don't actually punish when rules are broken there are no boundaries learned and you end up with a will full child that doesn't obey

This is quite right. Except it works for just one child, the same and only. Punishing one kid to show him/her boundaries doesn't mean all the other children will follow the same rules and never make mistakes.

When one demands death sentence to be the rule, one has to ask themselves if they could be the excecutioner, could they? Could they give death too? Meaning, would they kill, would they murder, would they press the on button of the electric chair, and thus become a murderer too (except a legal one and what would it mean)? How does it feel to be the murderer of a murderer?

Now if Freakangels is sure food for thought, yet, as mister hex said let's not slam doors and hurt feelings. And let me be clear, a very close friend of mine was raped. It happened a long time ago but It took time to heal, so I know the haunting bitterness of it.

Now for something totally different: I've been joking with Paul about him never drawing boys nipples and now what do we get, a dick! Not that I think it's an improvement but I am quite miffed!
(and apart from that I'm still tremendously hooked by that story and by the art)

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Dee_Noir — Sat, 20 Jun 2009 14:47:53 -0700

Capital punishment is immoral in my opinion, and I hope the FAs don't go down that path. However, with the collapse of society do different rules apply? It's like saying by not killing Mark, were they indirectly responsible for the death of Alice's family. In a different way then, blood is on all their hands. Could they sanction the death of one of their own, for the greater good? I think, possibly, but only if he was a confirmed murderer himself.

This has all taken a rather dark turn, hasn't it... Oooooo.
What happened to the chikkens? :(

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Quixotess — Sat, 20 Jun 2009 14:53:52 -0700

[Trigger warning for the following post, which is also US centric.)

Rapex would have served the woman in episode 58, but it would not help the majority of rape victims. It is likely to cause anger and further violence from rapists, or, as likely, the woman will be raped by someone she trusts and is not wearing rapex for. Also, rapex will not help men who are raped, by men or by women, nor will it help many trans women, who are some of the most at-risk for rape. I also question how rapex could be used for many women with various disabilities.

As for capital punishment:

Please remember what the common types of rapes are. Rape is most frequently 1) committed by a person who the victim knows (spouse, lover, family member, friend, or acquaintance) or 2) committed in military/war places or in care of the state (Darfur, Iraq, the Latinas on the US-Mexico border, and in both men's and women's prisons, by fellow prisoners and by guards or wardens, or rapes by police.)

In the second case, what you will often have is, for example, a woman who has immigrated to the United States illegally, perhaps one who does not speak English, who has been raped by a member of the border patrol. Or you will have a woman who was convicted of a drug-related felony count, who has been raped by her warden. Or you will have an Iraqi woman who has been raped by several American soldiers (see also: My Lai), or an American soldier who has been raped by several American soldiers.

Are you willing to kill American soldiers for women who are in the United States illegally or not at all, or for women who are criminals? Do you think most people are? Do you think you have even the tiniest hope of getting police killed for women who are criminals, for women who are poor, for women who cannot speak English, for indigenous women?

In the first case, it doesn't always look the rape in Watchmen; sometimes there is no physical force involved. You may have a woman who was raped by her husband. Or you will have a woman who was raped by her brother, or her babysitter, or her coworker. Or a man who was molested by his best friend.

What do you think a woman's parents will say to her, when she says she has been raped by her brother, and she wants to press charges? "You would KILL your brother over this." Or "you are a liar." Some victims may not want their rapists to die. They may be great friends with their rapist's families. They may be financially dependent on their rapists. You might *orphan* some children by killing their rapists. Do you have a foster care system that ensures they will be well-cared for?

Rape is very, very common. If you want to kill every rapist, you will be killing more people than wars ever did.But of course our justice system is not perfect. Don't you think juries would be less willing to convict a fine, upstanding member of society for some *whore* if they thought he was going to be killed for it? Don't you think that the system would work out such that anyone who could afford a good lawyer would get off, and those we killed would be the poorest and the ones with the least resources? Do you honestly think that you will convict more than the tiny tiny tiny percentage of rapists who are convictd now, and do you think that tiny tiny percentage will actually serve as a deterrent? I don't.

Can you call that justice?

I believe that seeking vengeance against rapists is an inefficient and short-sighted way to deal with the problem of rape, when in fact the greatest barriers to justice are barriers that prevent women and men from reporting their rapes. Those barriers are racism, misogyny, poverty, homophobia, transphobia, ableism and various corruptions of the state. Actually fighting rape is much harder than "kill rapists!" Most people don't have the stomach for how you would actually do it.

Do you want to end rape? Do you want justice for rape victims? Demilitarize the border. Decriminalize prostitution. Provide adequate hospitals and health services for rape victims, wherever they are. End the war on drugs. Stop all wars. Reform prison and root out corruption in the police force. End poverty.

And that will be a good start.

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city creed — Sat, 20 Jun 2009 15:05:04 -0700

Wow.
I was on my feet clapping by the end of that.
Welcome to WC :)

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RobAGD — Sat, 20 Jun 2009 15:19:53 -0700

Geeko - You kind of missed the point, you treat criminals the same basic way that you do a child. And the society desides what it considers acceptable punishment for the crime. If the whole thinks rape is a capital crime there is nothing wrong with that. Majority rules as long as they are not oppressing the minority.

Interesting argument about the capital punishment where it is allowed and not allowed, you also have to remember that it typically takes years and years to actually execute someone sentenced to the death penalty ( here in the US ) so it really isn't much of a deturent, with proper legal reform that might quicken up the process.

Quixotess - When the nature of man changes from it's fundamentals that may happen, I don't see it happing ever. It is a great thing to wish for and a goal to work towards but it not and IMHO a realistic to expect it.

Remember Hope is not a plan :D

and just because you believe it is true doesn't make it true or a fact.

-Robert
-Lawful Neutral according to facebook :LOL:

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rickiep00h — Sat, 20 Jun 2009 15:21:28 -0700

for some *whore*

I was all with you until this point. And after it, for that matter. Was it really necessary? I mean, I get what you mean, but it also seems to imply that rape victims are automatically whores. Or at least, the ones that press charges are. At least, that's what it implies to me. I might be projecting on what you said.

Aside from that, I agree all the way. Violent crime is not going away any time soon, and I think by this point it's become obvious that the death penalty (for any violent offense) just isn't getting anywhere.

But, I'm interested in where this conversation goes in the comic. As I said last week. :-) I'm always more interested in the characters and dialogue than the action, even if it's rendered really well (which it is).

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mister hex — Sat, 20 Jun 2009 15:28:21 -0700

@ Quixotess - I WAS actually clapping by the end of that.

And your recommendations at the end are all good ideas.

And I SAID I didn't want to start a debate about capital punishment. And I MOST CERTAINLY DO NOT. My opinions are my own and I don't expect anyone to agree with them. (But I do like to put the cat amongst the pigeons, as it were.)

Somehow, I believe we're going to see some sort of debate in FreakAngels about capital punishment.

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RobAGD — Sat, 20 Jun 2009 15:35:25 -0700

Hey as long as it stays civil and is a good debate, unless it is against forums rules it is all good. :)

This place I think has an awesome cross section of people from different back grounds.

-Robert

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Quixotess — Sat, 20 Jun 2009 15:57:44 -0700

"I was all with you until this point. And after it, for that matter. Was it really necessary? I mean, I get what you mean, but it also seems to imply that rape victims are automatically whores. Or at least, the ones that press charges are. At least, that's what it implies to me. I might be projecting on what you said."
I was actually talking about actual prostitutes who have been raped and how juries would likely view them. Just like a woman who was raped in prison will probably be viewed as "some criminal," a woman who was raped in the course of her sex work will probably be viewed as "some whore." (And both of them will probably be viewed as "some liar.") I should have been clearer.

"Quixotess - When the nature of man changes from it's fundamentals that may happen, I don't see it happing ever. It is a great thing to wish for and a goal to work towards but it not and IMHO a realistic to expect it."
Avoiding the question of whether those thingss are possible, the belief that you will never be able to solve the problem entirely is no reason to undertake counterproductive or harmful partial solutions.

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dorkmuffin — Sat, 20 Jun 2009 16:17:00 -0700

@Quixotess: Sometimes, I don't quite have the courage to take such a stand when discussing rape with men I know, because it has such a horribly complex set of motives and rationales behind it. Thank you for taking such a stand.

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RobAGD — Sat, 20 Jun 2009 16:35:18 -0700

ok, weird a post was deleted ?

-R

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warrenellis — Sat, 20 Jun 2009 16:37:46 -0700

Yeah. You've been here three hours. Don't try to start an argument straight away.

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Sat, 20 Jun 2009 16:59:59 -0700

Quixotess Thank you for that. I was happy to read your articulate stance on this.

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Quixotess — Sat, 20 Jun 2009 17:07:21 -0700

Thank you for your kind words, all. Edit: Like dorkmuffin says, talking about this stuff can be scary as hell. Reactions like yours make it less scary.

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RobAGD — Sat, 20 Jun 2009 17:12:21 -0700

Well I have been signed up for a few hours, been lurking for a lot longer than that.

But that is fine, I didn't think anything I have posted so far had been all that inflammatory.

Seems a tad one sided.

-R

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Adam — Sat, 20 Jun 2009 17:18:24 -0700

Just getting back to Luke's methods and motivations for this attack, I've heard a lot of people voicing the opinion that it was some sort of "charm spell", that he induced feelings in her of love and acceptance for him and an artificial willingness to take part. To me, that doesn't really gel with his personality.

Luke strikes me as an extreme portrayal of malignant narcissism. Her enjoyment of it is irrelevant. In fact, as the Marquis De Sade postulated, if he's putting any effort into allowing her enjoyment of the experience, then it's lessening the amount of effort he can devote to his own enjoyment. And for him it is entirely about his own enjoyment, fulfilling his own desires. A living meat blow-up doll is not at all unattractive to that kind of mind. It becomes purely about him, without the possibility of it being halted or the possibility of his fulfillment momentarily taking second place to hers.

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Quixotess — Sat, 20 Jun 2009 17:30:42 -0700

Adam, I agree. That is my assessment as well. Healthy people here have questioned what sort of enjoyment Luke could get from a woman who wasn't reacting in any way; I think what you said is spot on.

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Chris M Ferguson — Sat, 20 Jun 2009 18:17:35 -0700

To the people wondering why he was raping her and so on: Rape isn't about sex, it's about control. That's what they feed off. Whether it's against a child, a young, or an elderly adult, it's always about control.

I'm also interested in how the FA deal with Luke. Just as our fellow animals know, dealing with sexual predators shouldn't be a moral judgment. Why should it? It has to be a biologically driven judgment. You fuck with one of our own, you're gone. Especially in a post-apocalyptic world, every human counts because for all they might or might not know, that's the entire human race. Prisons are built to tolerate criminals, not deal with them in any kind of efficient manner. You can jail him, you can chop a man's prick off, but you can't take it out of his head. A criminal has to want to change on his own, he has to become submissive, but there are very few number of people who actually do change.

How do you reduce crime? You relieve people and cities of stress, not with more cops and prisons, but by creating an environment that is calm and willing to help. With that said, I'm not more surprised that more people are committing rapes -- well they probably are, but we might be unaware of it. In Freakangels Town, I mean.

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Adam — Sat, 20 Jun 2009 18:29:55 -0700

I think all forms of criminal endeavour have increased because the human race has lost the higher level awareness of their tribe mentality. We still have the base tribe instincts (xenophobia and racism as tools for protecting our own), but our sense of belonging to a defined community has become extremely dulled, particularly in large urban settings. Without that sense of wider belonging, its so easy to slide into a mindset of "it's me against the rest", and that can lead to justification of theft and higher crimes to the perpetrator. There's no greater Tribe to place before their own interests.

Which depresses me in a way, because I kind of find it hard to see how we can reverse the cultural changes such exponential population growth has wrought upon the species. I find it hard to see humanity surviving more than a few centuries into the future without MASSIVE reductions in our numbers and reverting to smaller tribes rather than big Nations.

But that's an entirely different discussion altogether :P

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Chris M Ferguson — Sat, 20 Jun 2009 18:41:49 -0700

@Adam Exactly. That's something I've been thinking about also. The Tribe -- the Family -- those concepts have almost vanished. It really has become about me and my own. And since the 80's yuppie culture where materialism reigned, that really became people's mantra. In that sense, we're devolving -- actually, in almost every area we're devolving. We can build weapons and let you watch porn and stream music from your Crappy Phone but we can't protect and preserve our own.

If we lose, the human race is gone.

But yes, an entire different discussion altogether.

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ScottBieser — Sat, 20 Jun 2009 19:27:23 -0700

Isn't "me and my own" also The Family and the Tribe? Three hundred centuries ago, a blink of an eye in evolutionary terms, tribes were rarely larger than 30 people -- which corresponds to the size of most people's extended family and circle of friends.

The problem comes when we regularly interact with people outside our families or tribes. One suggested solution is to enlarge the notion of "Tribe" to cover larger groupings, from one's city to one's country (which produces wars) to the whole human race (which may or may not be attainable). Others might suggest promoting an ethic which integrates The Golden Rule into one's own sense of individuality. I don't have a definitive answer; of course I do have my preferences.

Death penalty for rape? Depends on the circumstances, I think. One rapist might simply be unable to deal with his victim's rejection; the other might be a relentless sociopath like Luke. In both cases, severe sanctions should be applied, but every case is unique, and a range of sanctions should be available. But the death penalty does have the problem of its perverse incentive to up the ante to murder.

And the range of sanctions available can be very limited in the situation which the FreakAngels find themselves. Is it even possible to imprison Luke? If they banish him, might he team up with Mark and cause a lot more trouble? If they execute him, how will that effect the group's morale? Perhaps Arkady could scramble Luke's brain and render him harmless -- but that might backfire and leave him both empowered and completely unstable.

Such difficult choices. And most likely, Warren will come up with something completely different.

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trini_naenae — Sat, 20 Jun 2009 19:38:18 -0700

Huh. I'm noting a lack of disgust about the commonness of rape in your reasoning Quixotess. Maybe it's just me. But that really makes me uncomfortable. Then again, yesterday I was reading about rape issues, and stuff like this which always makes my blood boil. (And believe me I can find more. That's just the beginning.) Perhaps rape doesn't warrant the death penalty. But it is not less bad than murder.

And yes, I do believe they should kill Luke. They obviously won't be able to control him. With those powers, are they really going to "exile" him and let him wreck havoc like they let Mark? The only way to stop him at this point is to make sure he's not alive to be a sick bastard again.

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Chris M Ferguson — Sat, 20 Jun 2009 20:29:02 -0700

Not to be snarky or anything, but from looking at my dictionary, a tribe doesn't have a number limit. But yeah, a tribe should cover larger groupings which is what should've happened with the advent of cities, but instead, it became about "me and my own." Where you don't see the ridiculous mentality is mostly in lower-class neighborhoods where people, no matter what color you are, must stick together because it's all they know, it's all they have.

I believe in a Family of Choice. A circle of people who are my brothers and sisters, no matter if we're blood-related or not. I grew up in a neighborhood called "Little Africa" because of it's high African-American population, where heroin and cocaine was being imported and exported. I was the only white/Hispanic family in the whole place, but we were all friends, all family. Except the junkies. We fought hard to throw each one of them out because they were giving the kids drugs, infecting them, throwing the community into a circle of crime and death. And because we were a tribe, as we all knew each other, we didn't hesitate to throw the fucking drug dealers out. Why? Because the children of the community, which I was part of at the time, depended on it or else we'd be dead. If it was suburbia, you couldn't expect a mob of people speak up on behalf of each other. They just want to make sure they make it home for CSI and so on.

The concept of biological families is dead, especially with the fact that child abuse is rising. It's amazing when you see a mouse and a cat bond; or an elephant and a lion just kinda hang out in the animal kingdom. We kinda saw that with Alice coming in with a shotgun ready to kill, but instead she was embraced as one of their own, even if she doesn't have their Freak-ability. The Freakangels are not related, as far as we know, but were born at the same time. And each one found each other, bonded by their special ability. And from some of their conversations, they've known each other since they were kids.

From Scott:

If they execute him, how will that effect the group's morale?

Once again, who gives a shit. It shouldn't be a question of "what's going to happen to team spirit?" It's about channeling that pack behavior from our animal ancestors and making sure our species survives. Group morale is already all over the place for the Freakangels.

And when I said "exile," I was only referring to what animals do -- which is they either banish, avoid, or kill predators harming the tribe. And with Luke's powers, I thinking killing is the only way to go.

Really long, but, I thought it's better than nothing.

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inizitu — Sat, 20 Jun 2009 21:30:44 -0700

Dear Quixotess:
I would like to subscribe to your newsletter. =D

And @Chris Ferguson, Yeah, given the power Luke has, and the amount of FreakPower it would take to keep him contained? The only way to stop the harm he does is to kill him or reprogram him. And a reprogram might be something only Luke could pull off since he's the only one who practices mindrape. That we know of so far, anyway.

Part of the beauty of fiction is that simple answers are possible. If the writer is good, you are led to the right conclusion. IE if it walks like a rapist fuckwad, and whines like a rapist fuckwad, it probably is a rapist fuckwad (vs some of the weird and fucked-up, gray permutations you get in real life where what you think you see isn't always what you see.)
So, in fiction, we get to have the satisfaction of getting vengeance upon rapist fuckwads that tends to be denied us in real life. While I pretty much agree Quixotess' wise and lovely comment above, I can't help but wish, sometimes, that we could just do a cull. Rapists, televangelists and Bill O'Reilly, out of the gene pool! Don't make any more. Y'know.

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Quixotess — Sat, 20 Jun 2009 21:55:17 -0700

Huh. I'm noting a lack of disgust about the commonness of rape in your reasoning Quixotess. Maybe it's just me. But that really makes me uncomfortable. Then again, yesterday I was reading about rape issues, and stuff like this which always makes my blood boil. (And believe me I can find more. That's just the beginning.) Perhaps rape doesn't warrant the death penalty. But it is not less bad than murder.

No, I didn't imbue that comment with disgust. I'm new here and I didn't want to get too personal or emotional right off the bat. While there is a lot of pain in what I wrote (many of the examples I gave happened to close friends) I chose not to focus on my pain or my stories. Rape is a very dangerous topic. I didn't know what kind of response I would get, and the more I focused on my own emotions the more hurtful any negative responses would have been. So yeah, I made a conscious effort to be calm and impersonal.

Oh wait, my reasoning? I don't think disgust for rape necessarily means you think punishments should be fatal or otherwise violent. I don't want either of my abusers to be killed or hurt. My most spiteful imaginings involve tattoos on their foreheads, but that would be a violation of their rights.

I do, however, think it would make sense to kill Luke. Freakangels, having nonhuman powers, have nonhuman morality, and have to deal with situations differently. I do not think there is a prison that could hold him; I think letting him go free makes freakangels complicit in his future rapes and other violences; I think Arkady destroying his mind through recreation of the overdose experience is sadistic and cruel. I think he should be killed.

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trini_naenae — Sat, 20 Jun 2009 22:14:11 -0700

@Quixotess: It's not the punishment part that makes me uncomfortable. It's the well-it's-so-common reasoning. That's the worst part! That it's so common. I have enough issues and fears and nightmares because of how common it is, and I'm protected little whitey. I'm pretty sure I'm past one hand in counting women I know who have been raped/molested/sexually assaulted. And they were just white girls, most if not all from WASP backgrounds. I just spent at least an hour yesterday reading and listening to about how much worse it is for Women of Color, never mind how bad it is for all the other groups listed. And I still have yet to see anyone talk about men dealing with their own responsibilities (yes there are bad women but they are incredibly rare) and talking to other men about responsibilities, when it comes to respecting women... all women, and the other groups as well. Perhaps what I am most peeved about is the entire rape is not as bad as murder thinking.

edit: And yes I know I am being cranky and a bit ranty. This topic makes me so.

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Quixotess — Sat, 20 Jun 2009 22:24:55 -0700

I was not making any point with "rape is common" that involves excusing rape or rapists, nor do I believe I wrote anything like that in my post. Would you like to e-mail me? I'm at quixotess@gmail.com.

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trini_naenae — Sat, 20 Jun 2009 22:44:20 -0700

Eh, don't mind me. Cranky and ranty and probably not thinking all that straight I'm afraid. Perhaps it's the focusing on the punishment instead of the causes that really pisses me off.

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Quixotess — Sat, 20 Jun 2009 22:50:02 -0700

It's okay. And the offer stands if you change your mind.

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mister hex — Sat, 20 Jun 2009 23:31:34 -0700

FOR THE LAST TIME - I did not want to start a debate on capital punishment. For Rape. For anything.

We all agree : Luke's a cunt and he'll get what he deserves,

Slammed doors and hurt feelings. Over a hypothetical situation. No point to it, is there?

I TOLD you Warren loved us. Although, sometimes I don't know why.

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Quixotess — Sun, 21 Jun 2009 00:18:17 -0700

If you noticed, people weren't addressing you or your arguments specifically.

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DeVorn — Sun, 21 Jun 2009 00:41:47 -0700

> We all agree : Luke's a cunt and he'll get what he deserves,

I don't agree. Maybe he won't. And, you know, maybe people don't deserve to die; maybe it's just a matter of trying to do the right thing and it has nothing to do with deserving at all. Maybe you just try to make the choices that don't bugger it all up.

I think the right choice is to kill Luke; not because Luke deserves to die, but because--beyond the possibility of stripping him of his powers--it's the only sensible, feasible solution to the problem.

I don't see why the emphasis should be on the perpetrator anyway; this isn't about punishing the bad guys, this is about protecting everyone else. Can you see how someone other than the victim saying 'kill the rapist' is more about satisfying a sense of moral superiority and not about actually addressing the victim?

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Quixotess — Sun, 21 Jun 2009 00:50:27 -0700

"beyond the possibility of stripping him of his powers"
Not the Avatar solution! nooo!

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indysleaze — Sun, 21 Jun 2009 01:25:15 -0700

@trini_naenae

of course rape is less than murder - if even one person has survived rape intact (and I'm sure that many have used their horrible experience to emnpower them in some way in the future), nobody ever survived murder.

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mocha — Sun, 21 Jun 2009 02:05:27 -0700

@indysleaze, I'd argue that it's not obvious that rape is less than murder. I'd actually argue the opposite. Of course, I've never been murdered, not to mention that this is besides the point, and I can't imagine it being easy, but there are questions that need to be considered when judging when something is "worse" than something else.

Which point of view is being taken? The victim's? The family/friends of the victim?
What is being used as a measurement? Pain? What type of pain?

Since no one who has been murdered is going to come forward and explain the pain to us, it's not a fair comparison to make. We can't fairly and accurately compare the differences with all the circumstances and different points of view.

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Gekko — Sun, 21 Jun 2009 03:33:50 -0700

@Quixotess, I've jsut read your comments and I'm still clapping my hands, I hope I can read more of your thoughts in the future.

@ * RobAGD: re: your fist comm towards me. I would never compare criminal acts to child behaviour; on the contrary, I was just answering to a friend here who had just done so. But nevermind.

Anyway, this thread has been worth reading: we are from so many countries, sharing our point of views on such subjects is somehow rewarding. Thanks to Freakangels. And where are the cunts who pretend comics are not food for thought?

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

warrenellis — Sun, 21 Jun 2009 04:24:24 -0700

FOR THE LAST TIME - I did not want to start a debate on capital punishment. For Rape. For anything.

Should've kept your fucking mouth shut then, shouldn't you?

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

Dee_Noir — Sun, 21 Jun 2009 06:40:55 -0700

Someone ban Warren Ellis for being an arsehole. Hah! Just kidding my Lord and Master of Arse Eels.

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

Darkest — Sun, 21 Jun 2009 06:59:38 -0700

A Question has just formed for me. How does one punish/ incarcerate a Freakangel anyway? Most of them seem capable of escaping from the equivalent of a regular prison.

Something short of a mind wipe/lobotomy or some sort of power nullifier seems the only feasible way of doing it at present.

Lord Ellis will make it work.

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

mister hex — Sun, 21 Jun 2009 07:16:31 -0700

Should've kept your fucking mouth shut then, shouldn't you?

Yes, sir.

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

Gilgurth — Sun, 21 Jun 2009 07:20:55 -0700

I wonder if the 10 of them together can push into his mind and... change things. I mean, that always works out very well in the comic book world when it occurs. That or alter his DNA and remove the bastardism gene.

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

thecat17 — Sun, 21 Jun 2009 09:41:33 -0700

Quixotess: It's okay. And the offer stands if you change your mind.
You know something?... I really don't want to take what you said into context...

Gekko: And where are the cunts who pretend comics are not food for thought?
See that firing squad? Line them up on the wall...

Darkest: They have their ways. Oh yes, do they have their ways.

DeVorn: I think the right choice is to kill Luke; not because Luke deserves to die, but because--beyond the possibility of stripping him of his powers--it's the only sensible, feasible solution to the problem.
And if Luke dies, does electricity pour out of his orifaces and hit things and transfer to the remaining Freakangels, and then they absorb his memories and gain a little more power?

Gilgurth: I think Arkady could do it, herself. But, she's not the type that'd do such things, right? Which sort of makes it make sense that she'd be able to do it, by herself.

mister hex:

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

Pooka — Sun, 21 Jun 2009 09:58:42 -0700

wow...this was a nice episode. :) I'm glad he got caught being a skeeve.

It's been a pretty decent week for me...the kids went off to their mom's for the weekend. It's been just me and my hubs and critters...plus two tiny stray kittens we've taken in to find homes for. It's been a good few days.

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

Dotcommunist — Sun, 21 Jun 2009 10:29:56 -0700

'What a pity Bilbo didn't stab him when he had the chance'

'Pity? It was pity that stayed Bilbo's hand. There are many that live who deserve death, and many dead who deserve life. Can you give it to them, Frodo Baggins? Do not be so quick to deal in death and judgments. Even the very wise cannot see all ends'

Gandalf speaks true. Capital punishment is deeply wrong.

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

dorkmuffin — Sun, 21 Jun 2009 10:44:03 -0700

@ Dotcommunist.

Hear hear. Expressing your own opinion using a Lord of the Rings reference, WIN.

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

johnjones — Sun, 21 Jun 2009 16:28:27 -0700

Also - has anyone else brought up the curious fact that both of the 'bad' Freakangels are the only ones with Biblical names?

You know, Kirk is a Scottish term for "church..."

I've been on a weekend trip and apparently things have noticeably progressed, so, addressing a few points in the posts:

I'm going to try to sidestep the Capital Punishment/rape thing except to agree with Darkest about what the fuck do they do with Luke if they can't kill him or banish him? Presumably if there'd been some "depowering" option, they'd've used it on Mark. Similarly lobotomizing Luke is really just another form of murder. And yet, they have a person in their community who refuses to abide by the laws of their society. What to do...

On the subject of what the Freakangel package does - it does whatever Warren wants it to do (limited by whatever Paul is willing to draw). And no, I'm not being a smartass about it. He's the writer, so it does what he wants it to do. Any attempts to explain, enumerate or define the "package" will only limit it. I'd prefer those limits to be explored within the story instead of having them "front-loaded" in such a way as to limit potential story space.

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

mister hex — Sun, 21 Jun 2009 18:35:07 -0700

Been reading the early episodes again. (By the way, Warren and Paul, both of you, this really stands up well to repeated readings. The amount of detail in the artwork is phenomenal and the dialogue teases out bits of information. Like a drug, this book is.)

Arkady tells Luke -
"Yesterday I knew exactly when you'd die. Today I don't. You were going to control and assault Janine and Sirkka was going to pick up on it. There was going to be a big group trial, and you were going to lose your temper, and everyone was going to get together and kill you."

Luke says (still slightly fucked up from the whammy 'Kady laid on him) "No."

Arkady says (and this is the good bit)
"Yes. As of right now, I don't know when you're going to die. You understand why, don't you?'
A beat and then she says
"Never do anything like this again. I'll know."

(It's established early that Arkady is a precog, as well. And that Luke has strong powers, too. And that Sirkka always kind of monitors everyone.)

That said, we haven't seen much of Connor at all. And he was the first FreakAngel we met. (Also - Kirk HATES fucking Luke and will kill Luke himself with his bare fucking hands, probably. HATES him. HATES.)

EDIT TO ADD - Thanks for the tombstone! Every good gunfighter should have one.

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

johnjones — Sun, 21 Jun 2009 19:13:19 -0700

That said, we haven't seen much of Connor at all. And he was the first FreakAngel we met.

Actually, that was KK, though Conner was the second.

That said, I'm looking forward to Conner's reaction to all this. From what we saw of him, he seemed to treat Alice as a cross between a new pet and a girlfriend. I think he likes Alice and cares for Alice but I think he doesn't really respect her as an equal, even an "honorary" equal. It would not surprise me at all if Alice's champion in terms of being involved as a true equal with the other 'angels is Kirk instead of Conner.

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

mister hex — Sun, 21 Jun 2009 20:01:31 -0700

@ johnjones - Of course! My mistake.

That said, I think Connor has a crush on Alice and he feels badly about what Mark did to her (especially in the early episodes.) And Kirk feels guilty about destroying the world and Karl doesn't (as much, anymore.)

Also! Sirkka (I believe - might've been KK) destroyed the knife at Connor's throat from a distance. Smashed it into little pieces.

I like to see the parameters of the FreakAngel Package. Because it's just like people, innit? Some people are good at some things, some at others. Arkady is the only one who can teleport. (For now - I imagine they'll all learn how or already know, once Arkady figured it out.) Karl screens out all the bad shagging with a tinfoil hat. (Or maybe he learned how to hide himself - like Mark. Hmm?)

I think Mark is the Whitechapel murderer and he's doing it to fuck with them. I could very easily be wrong. But this murder didn't just come out of left field, as it were. "Cutting at the edges." While they're all preoccupied with trying Luke ... one thing that's mentioned, early, is that Mark was one against eleven. Luke would be one against ten. If Mark shows up, it's two against ten. Not very good odds but still ...

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

johnjones — Sun, 21 Jun 2009 21:17:44 -0700

Both Luke and Kait can screen and Luke was potent enough to screen multiple people at once when the refugees raided Whitechapel.

I don't challenge Conner's guilt about Alice or his affection for her. I'm just not sure he respects her the way Kirk probably does. At the end of Volume I he refers to her as an "honorary Freakangel" because... well, really because she managed to keep her head and follow the simple instructions that he and Kirk had given her regarding the Watchtower.

I think Alice proved her metal with Kirk during the morter attack and its aftermath. She caught what he and the others has missed - that the only way the morter round would've hit the Frakcave was with the help of a Freakangel. She also piped up about the idea of the raiders putting shooters in town and did so right before said shooters attacked Jack. She also climbed the tower to relieve Kirk so that he could take a personal hand in protecting Whitechapel instead of simply being the "eyes in the sky." And finally, in a funny but significant point, she respected his wishes enough to avoid "touching his stuff.

While he refers to her as "new girl" and she refers to him as a "moaning pissflap," I think Kirk has a lot of respect for Alice and will stand up for her rights to be included in Freakangel business.

What's even more interesting about this is that none of the above requires or even involves some sort of romantic triangle between Kirk, Alice and Conner. Instead I think Kirk sees Alice as a person worthy of his trust and respect first and a girl second. I'm not so sure about Conner.

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

SaiFai — Mon, 22 Jun 2009 03:22:45 -0700

Wonder if Luke's whole Parasite of Love thing factored into this. Something that's sort of been bothering me is that Luke is always described as being "Clever", so I have a feeling that he'll have a back up plan or three. Luke keeps saying he's going to pay everyone back and I'd like to see him pull out a "Exactly as planned moment." if only for a another reason to have him executed.

Also I reread the scene when Luke was caught with his proverbially hand in the cookie jar and I found his dastardly comment quite humorous the second time around. Luke is basically getting caught for breaking their only law and the first words that come out of his mouth are genius. In context Luke is such a Bastard and I would like to applaud Mr. Ellis for writing him as such. The fact Luke can draw such a emotional response from the audience I believe is just a sign of good writing.

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

mc2 — Mon, 22 Jun 2009 11:33:12 -0700

@ Dotcommunist

'It needs but one foe to breed a war, not two, Master Warden,' answered Éowyn. 'And those who have not swords can still die upon them.'

ALL EXTREMISTS MUST DIE!

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

mc2 — Mon, 22 Jun 2009 12:18:38 -0700

Oh, and [ed.: caught that, did you?]

Anybody but @diello and me wanting to see 5 minutes of AOE? (Arkady Overdose Experience)
Or am I just too LD50-as-psyche-punk-initiation-mystery-rite-of-passage for my own good?

By FA temporal flow standards that could be, say, 46-48 panels of white. Think of everything else Warren and Paul could be doing those 2 weeks! The change in Luke, with his potential...

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

BellaInara — Mon, 22 Jun 2009 14:27:35 -0700

Anybody but @diello and me wanting to see 5 minutes of AOE? (Arkady Overdose Experience)
Or am I just too LD50-as-psyche-punk-initiation-mystery-rite-of-passage for my own good?

Oh yes! I loved seeing Arkady do something other than being lovable. She offers a nice third option to this situation. Because in the end, they are going to have to punish him somehow. I think that given the circumstances, AOE, exile, or death might be the only logical choices. Unless Warren feels like unveiling another choice/FA power that we do not know about currently.

Something needs to happen. If anything, I think how they chose to deal with Luke will come into play with how they chose to deal with the Whitechapel murderer. If they are going to make Whitechapel into a revitalized civilization, then they are going to have to have a way to deal with crime. There is approximately 400 people that the FAs look after. Someone is going to kill/rape/steal. Let them learn how to handle it with one of their own, so that no one can come back and say what they are doing is too harsh or that they offer preferential treatment to FAs. A precedent of punishment is being established here. I personally count what happened to Mark as being when the FAs tried to avoid a problem. They now know that exile, for a FA, is not effective, and can later be dangerous.

Of course, I am thinking of how I felt when I was 22/23. I was faced with a problem then that I could avoid or deal with harshly. I wussed out, and tried to avoid the situation. Looking back, I can see how I was able to convince myself that this was the best action for all. If given the chance, I would deal with it in the harsh way. In the long run, that would have protected my family better. I also showed my immaturity by trying to avoid the problem. The FAs, we've come to see, are still a bit immature. They are growing, but not everyone is there yet. Perhaps the situation with Luke will be what everyone needs in order to fully embrace the role they designed for themselves when they were 17.

@Warren~give yourself a pat on the back. Your story-telling skills are obviously amazing. If it wasn't, there would be so much discussion about things that are slightly off topic. I couldn't imagine any of the TV shows that I watch engaging me into these type of discussions. Wonderful, really, to feel the need to discuss things.

@Paul~Your artwork has been so inspiring that I am going to get back into art. It's been 10 years, but watching what you do each week has given me the itch back. Thank you for that.

As usual, I've written more than I had planned. It is so nice to be engaged in this story!

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

razrangel — Mon, 22 Jun 2009 16:15:53 -0700

From the commentary here I'd say this has been one the more important works of Ellis's that I've read.

I was busy throughout the weekend. Read the ep on Friday but had to spend today reading through this thread. A little bit glad I missed the what-is-actually-rape-and-should-it-merit-death discussion. I'm glad it happened, but I'm glad I didn't have the opportunity to say unconsidered things. Anyhow, I am a little taken aback by some comments that indicate there isn't as much of a big deal here with Luke's unnamed victim. "She wanted it, she wasn't present to it, she may have enjoyed it" are all wrong responses. It's exactly the attitude that they betray that allows rape to continue to happen.

To the episode itself: again, some of the strongest storytelling I've seen from Our Illustrious Host to date. And furthermore, excellent work by Paul to crank up the intensity of action to meet the mood.

And Alice may just be an honorary Freakangel for being bold enough to do what needs doing. Yay!

My thoughts on what will befall Luke next regard simply that actions have consequences. And severely negative actions call for severely negative responses. Whether it's death, some kind of mental mutilation (lobotomy, destroying his ability to use the Package), chemical, physical or Freakangel castration, detention/incarceration of a nature that would work on an 'Angel...no matter what they go with, on its own it's going to look horrific. But something big and bad has to meet this action. Not to discourage others but because actions have consequences.

(I believe that the human feeling for justice is a way to enact organized, populist revenge. And I don't think going with our feelings is a bad thing. We just shouldn't shoot ourselves in the collective foot in its pursuit.)

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

Dotcommunist — Mon, 22 Jun 2009 17:25:32 -0700

@ MC2

'ALL EXTREMISTS MUST DIE!'

I really hope you are joking here, otherwise you break the irony-o-meter

Also:

'It needs but one foe to breed a war, not two, Master Warden,' answered Éowyn. 'And those who have not swords can still die upon them.'

A society need not war against itself and to induct that sort of us or them mentality into a discussion about morality and capital punishment worries me. We are not crusaders for a cause.

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

warrenellis — Mon, 22 Jun 2009 18:18:27 -0700

NERDS WILL STOP QUOTING FUCKING ELF STORIES AT EACH OTHER NOW

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

johnjones — Mon, 22 Jun 2009 19:39:26 -0700

Awright guys, you heard the man. Time to switch to Harry Potter...

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

BellaInara — Mon, 22 Jun 2009 20:52:16 -0700

I would, but I'd be afraid of having the eels sent after me.

Ok, couldn't resist.

Conner as HP?
Luke as Draco?
Mark as Voldemort?
Miki as McGonagall?
Kirk as Dumbledore?

Going too far?

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

Val A Lindsay II — Mon, 22 Jun 2009 22:35:33 -0700

I'm not quite sure Mr. Ellis had intended the last two episodes to carry so much steam on the subject. Mind you, that's never a bad thing as healthy debate on such subjects is good.

But I've been thinking more about the story at the moment. Most likely it's a sneak peek at how the FAs will have to handle Mark, but could it be some way of coercing Luke into some other role? Killing off such a well developed character generally involves a huge plot twist and I'm just not seeing it here.

Most likely he's not a dead man anyways. I doubt that whatever Arkady will do to him will kill him, but I don't doubt it will make him wish he was dead...

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

Chris M Ferguson — Mon, 22 Jun 2009 23:13:49 -0700

I also just want to pop in here to praise Uncle Warren and Paul Duffield's willingness to show so much restraint -- I don't mean they're holding back, but that they're so confident in their skills, they couldn't give two shits and a pineapple what the audience thinks about the pacing or story content.

And I've seen Warren really refine his skills on this. With Planetary, Fell, and Freakangels, he's really captured this tight crisp package of storytelling that no one else in comics really achieves.

I don't know how well Paul's holding up on the side of art duties with the four-panel grids -- most artists I know would kick Warren in the head at this point. Mostly every artist wants to rip a splash page every other scene, or have exploding panels as much as they can, and yeah, they can have that, but you have to pay service to the story first.

With that said, I'm not a big fan of the shorter works Warren's done -- the little three or six issue stints -- because, and he's said this before, he doesn't care about plot. He cares about characters and setting up situations and letting them react. (I think the only other novel that he's done that was long but didn't grab me was Doktor Sleepless which, granted, isn't over, but I'm still following it.

Hope to see you guys in San Diego soon (I know it won't happen, but still...)

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

warrenellis — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 05:09:37 -0700

because, and he's said this before, he doesn't care about plot

...to the exclusion of all else.

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

Dotcommunist — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 10:54:52 -0700

lol at the comic book writer calling me a nerd. I think that qualifies me for some uber-geek award. Or the arse-eels.

I have to agree that plot cannot rule all. When you are on a good riff, then riff. Otherwise you might as well be Crichton, Clancy or Grisham.

I think Luke is going to be expelled and will end up teaming up with Mark in an attack on our Freak Angels. It seems the logical path...

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

johnjones — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 15:11:18 -0700

I think Luke is going to be expelled and will end up teaming up with Mark in an attack on our Freak Angels. It seems the logical path...

Which is why it won't happen - at least not immediately or without some external intervention (Mark rescuing Luke perhaps). I mean, c'mon, the 'angels aren't stupid. Like you say, that's a logical path if they banish. So they'll certainly see that path and take steps to avoid it.

One of the things I like most about this series is that nobody comes off as a moron. Luke may not have much common sense, but even he is beyond brilliant intellectually.

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

mister hex — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 17:22:53 -0700

Another thing I like about this is that Warren has written this ages ago and knows what's going to happen and enjoys watching us flail around like moths pinned to a board. And when I say "He enjoys it", I mean it displeases him sometimes and makes him laugh at others (I hope!) and at odd times, must touch his cold, dark heart at how much this means to so many people.

Miki can see through things. Makes sense, as a doctor. Kait can reanimate the dead. Makes sense, as a detective. Arkady can teleport. Makes sense, as a psychonaut. (psikonot in Russian, natch! - Ed.)

Mark will be a big reveal, y'all get me? He ain't just gonna pop up and say "Hello!"

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

UrbanAngel — Wed, 24 Jun 2009 03:12:15 -0700

I think that you're giving Luke too much credit - he seems pretty slow and not very clever at all.

FREAKANGELS Episode 59

mister hex — Wed, 24 Jun 2009 08:12:32 -0700

He was described more than once as being "the most intellectual of all" the FreakAngels. Connor who described him "He's spent too long in his own head. From up there in his brain, we all look a bit like ants."

Also - KK and Caz are engineering whizzes so they can probably see the inner workings of machinery. Makes sense. Connor, Karl, Kirk, Jack, Sirkka and Luke (and Mark) have not revealed their Secret Freakangel Skill. (Although Luke's is probably mind-kontrol.)

And just in case you needed it, it's arrived.

EDIT TO ADD - Note secret entrance to underground complex at bottom left of photo.