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      CommentAuthormister hex
    • CommentTimeJun 19th 2009
     (6172.101)
    @ SaiFai
    rape isn't even a crime that is normally punishable with death.


    It should be. In my humble opinion.

    KK I think, will be ... not on Luke's side, necessarily but "in the wind", as they say. (Did the boy from Lambeth Road REALLY want to shag her? Didn't she go "Sleep" in the very first pages? How's that different from Luke, on any realistic level?) So will Miki. (She wants to Save The World She Destroyed, does she not?) Kirk (the one in the tower) and Karl (the one with the strawberries) will vote Death. So will Jack. Connor's a Wild Card. Kait will kill him outright. With a gun. In the interests of Justice (whatever THAT is.) Caz is the Witness and the Accuser. Alice, sadly, doesn't matter. (This is FreakAngels business.) Arkady's the REAL WILD CARD. (She's the only one Luke is afraid of and he's not afraid of her enough.) Sirkka doesn't like Luke. (Why, exactly? If she's got a harem, she won't let him play? That would piss him off, for sure.)

    See how the spectre of Mark hangs over the whole thing? And we've never even seen Mark yet.
  1.  (6172.102)
    @ mister hex
    Alice, sadly, doesn't matter.

    I wouldn't count her out of the judgment process yet. She's an 'honorary' FreakAngel, and probably has the balls to at least try and bargain that up to having a say. She's also a witness, and a victim of similar mind manipulation herself. I suspect she's not going to sit around and let the FAs sort everything out without trying to get involved herself - whether she'll succeed is another matter.
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      CommentAuthordiello
    • CommentTimeJun 19th 2009
     (6172.103)
    @Michael
    has anyone else brought up the curious fact that both of the 'bad' Freakangels are the only ones with Biblical names?
    What, you've never heard of the Book Of Kokokoho?
    •  
      CommentAuthorindysleaze
    • CommentTimeJun 19th 2009
     (6172.104)
    @Mister Hex
    It should be. In my humble opinion.


    It's not for a very good reason - if rape carries the same punishment as murder, why should a rapist leave his victim alive as a witness to his crimes?
    •  
      CommentAuthordorkmuffin
    • CommentTimeJun 20th 2009
     (6172.105)
    @Michael
    has anyone else brought up the curious fact that both of the 'bad' Freakangels are the only ones with Biblical names?
    What, you've never heard of the Book Of Kokokoho?


    Depends if Jack is short for anything. It's usually a nickname for John.
    •  
      CommentAuthormister hex
    • CommentTimeJun 20th 2009
     (6172.106)
    I don't want to start a debate about capital punishment, really I don't. Such debates usually end up with shouting and slammed doors and hurt feelings over hypothetical situations. So I added the qualifier that twas my own humble opinion. Which I repeat - this is my opinion - Rape should be punishable by death. Until such time as I am recognized as the Legitimate Ruler Of Earth, it shall remain my opinion and not official policy.
    • CommentAuthorBellaInara
    • CommentTimeJun 20th 2009
     (6172.107)
    Here is my personal take on capital punishment, then I promise that I'll be quiet. I took a year's worth of Criminal Justice classes a while back when I was going for a degree. My professor was highly opinionated, Conservative and a defense attorney to boot. He opened the class with a discussion on capital punishment.

    I was for capital punishment, as I feel that there are just some crimes that warrant lethal force.

    He made a really good point against. Simply that it costs tax-payers 3 times more to kill a criminal than it takes to keep him in prison for life. All due to the multiple appeals that are guaranteed with a death sentence. As innocent people have been found through improvement in technology, it would be a crime for the state to not offer the appeals. We all agree that it should be the right person that dies for the crime.

    I still think that there are certain crimes that warrant the death penalty. Like crimes against children, serial and spree killers, and a few other cases. While rape is a horrible crime (and one that you don't just "accidentally" do), I don't think that it warrants death unless it is a serial rapist. It just costs too much. Throw the bastard in jail and let him deal with the consequences there.

    Anyways, my last two cents on the subject.
  2.  (6172.108)
    fwiw I don't think state sanctioned murder is acceptable under any circumstance. Miscarriages and 'cost' aside (love it when money gets bought into discussions that hinge on the sanctity of human life), what moral virtue can be found in a state that condemns murder while engaging in it?

    just my two p's worth :)
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      CommentAuthordiello
    • CommentTimeJun 20th 2009 edited
     (6172.109)
    @Mister Hex
    I'd vote for you, so long as I get to be your right-hand (wo)man... and that we never EVER let on that rapists are being put to death when caught (because if they find out, they'll probably just go the whole nine and kill their victims, too, making it harder for them to be identified). And to cut back on tax-payers' money, we use the Kait method.
    Also, I think rapex should be brought back.
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      CommentAuthordorkmuffin
    • CommentTimeJun 20th 2009
     (6172.110)
    @Diello, sounds like someone actually invented Neil Stephenson's dentata. But, you know, failed.
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      CommentAuthorMelanieB
    • CommentTimeJun 20th 2009 edited
     (6172.111)
    China has a great cost-effective death-p system out there. 5-6 cents a bullet.

    Can of worms aside.. I pondered a bit while washing dishes (kinda like being on the toilet, for some folks), I do hope we get to see more of Luke's history. What made him a scum-bag in the first place? What elements could possibly bring out Luke's greatness as a FA and a human being?

    I remember quite vividly how I didn't like Alice when she made her first appearance. That slowly changed and now there's "atta-girl" praise about her on the forums (I chime in as well). Maybe putting Luke in a spot where he gains an epiphany down this long and winding road would be more fulfuilling for the readers? At least moreso than him being killed or punished in a way that'd take away his development as a character. Right now, all he is is the jerk. It's like the rape victim. Neither Luke or her should be shoved off in a corner before they're really fleshed out.

    Bugger, it's 5am so most likely there'll be typos up above all over and i'm too sleepy to review all that.. Teach me better than to have a nightcap well after bedtime.

    -Mel
    • CommentAuthorRobAGD
    • CommentTimeJun 20th 2009
     (6172.112)
    Lots of interesting thoughts here.

    I would like to point out a little something to those that think jail can be a real forum of punishment for someone outside the acceptable social norms. You are putting people into an environment where everyone is outside the norms ( I throw the guards into that group as well, they are willingly locking them selves in with these people ).

    You can't because of "human rights" work inmates like they use to when jail was a "really bad place to be"

    Now as a direct relation to that, you see it in all the cops shows where the suspect is told "Police STOP" and they just run. Now if they KNEW they were really running a risk of say, being shot for fleeing an officer or maybe a bit of a tune up later after being caught do you think people would tend to stop running ?

    It is like raising a child, if you don't actually punish when rules are broken there are no boundaries learned and you end up with a will full child that doesn't obey or do what they are told.

    Outside of that big thumbs up for Alice :) too bad she is a plant for Mark :D

    -Robert
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      CommentAuthorGekko
    • CommentTimeJun 20th 2009 edited
     (6172.113)
    Has anybody realised that in countries where there is no capital punishment, crime rates are NOT higher? And on the other end, countries who use death sentence don't have a lower criminal rate. It means death sentence is not the proper answer to lower crimes, insofar as fear of death sentence doesn't stop people to commit crimes. Thus, death sentence is useless.
    The point is people certainly oughto be protected from crime. Protection should be the answer. Not revenge.

    It is like raising a child, if you don't actually punish when rules are broken there are no boundaries learned and you end up with a will full child that doesn't obey

    This is quite right. Except it works for just one child, the same and only. Punishing one kid to show him/her boundaries doesn't mean all the other children will follow the same rules and never make mistakes.

    When one demands death sentence to be the rule, one has to ask themselves if they could be the excecutioner, could they? Could they give death too? Meaning, would they kill, would they murder, would they press the on button of the electric chair, and thus become a murderer too (except a legal one and what would it mean)? How does it feel to be the murderer of a murderer?


    Now if Freakangels is sure food for thought, yet, as mister hex said let's not slam doors and hurt feelings. And let me be clear, a very close friend of mine was raped. It happened a long time ago but It took time to heal, so I know the haunting bitterness of it.


    Now for something totally different: I've been joking with Paul about him never drawing boys nipples and now what do we get, a dick! Not that I think it's an improvement but I am quite miffed!
    (and apart from that I'm still tremendously hooked by that story and by the art)
    • CommentAuthorDee_Noir
    • CommentTimeJun 20th 2009
     (6172.114)
    I'm having a time out until I can learn some manners.
    Capital punishment is immoral in my opinion, and I hope the FAs don't go down that path. However, with the collapse of society do different rules apply? It's like saying by not killing Mark, were they indirectly responsible for the death of Alice's family. In a different way then, blood is on all their hands. Could they sanction the death of one of their own, for the greater good? I think, possibly, but only if he was a confirmed murderer himself.

    This has all taken a rather dark turn, hasn't it... Oooooo.
    What happened to the chikkens? :(
    • CommentAuthorQuixotess
    • CommentTimeJun 20th 2009
     (6172.115)
    [Trigger warning for the following post, which is also US centric.)

    Rapex would have served the woman in episode 58, but it would not help the majority of rape victims. It is likely to cause anger and further violence from rapists, or, as likely, the woman will be raped by someone she trusts and is not wearing rapex for. Also, rapex will not help men who are raped, by men or by women, nor will it help many trans women, who are some of the most at-risk for rape. I also question how rapex could be used for many women with various disabilities.

    As for capital punishment:

    Please remember what the common types of rapes are. Rape is most frequently 1) committed by a person who the victim knows (spouse, lover, family member, friend, or acquaintance) or 2) committed in military/war places or in care of the state (Darfur, Iraq, the Latinas on the US-Mexico border, and in both men's and women's prisons, by fellow prisoners and by guards or wardens, or rapes by police.)

    In the second case, what you will often have is, for example, a woman who has immigrated to the United States illegally, perhaps one who does not speak English, who has been raped by a member of the border patrol. Or you will have a woman who was convicted of a drug-related felony count, who has been raped by her warden. Or you will have an Iraqi woman who has been raped by several American soldiers (see also: My Lai), or an American soldier who has been raped by several American soldiers.

    Are you willing to kill American soldiers for women who are in the United States illegally or not at all, or for women who are criminals? Do you think most people are? Do you think you have even the tiniest hope of getting police killed for women who are criminals, for women who are poor, for women who cannot speak English, for indigenous women?

    In the first case, it doesn't always look the rape in Watchmen; sometimes there is no physical force involved. You may have a woman who was raped by her husband. Or you will have a woman who was raped by her brother, or her babysitter, or her coworker. Or a man who was molested by his best friend.

    What do you think a woman's parents will say to her, when she says she has been raped by her brother, and she wants to press charges? "You would KILL your brother over this." Or "you are a liar." Some victims may not want their rapists to die. They may be great friends with their rapist's families. They may be financially dependent on their rapists. You might *orphan* some children by killing their rapists. Do you have a foster care system that ensures they will be well-cared for?

    Rape is very, very common. If you want to kill every rapist, you will be killing more people than wars ever did.But of course our justice system is not perfect. Don't you think juries would be less willing to convict a fine, upstanding member of society for some *whore* if they thought he was going to be killed for it? Don't you think that the system would work out such that anyone who could afford a good lawyer would get off, and those we killed would be the poorest and the ones with the least resources? Do you honestly think that you will convict more than the tiny tiny tiny percentage of rapists who are convictd now, and do you think that tiny tiny percentage will actually serve as a deterrent? I don't.

    Can you call that justice?

    I believe that seeking vengeance against rapists is an inefficient and short-sighted way to deal with the problem of rape, when in fact the greatest barriers to justice are barriers that prevent women and men from reporting their rapes. Those barriers are racism, misogyny, poverty, homophobia, transphobia, ableism and various corruptions of the state. Actually fighting rape is much harder than "kill rapists!" Most people don't have the stomach for how you would actually do it.

    Do you want to end rape? Do you want justice for rape victims? Demilitarize the border. Decriminalize prostitution. Provide adequate hospitals and health services for rape victims, wherever they are. End the war on drugs. Stop all wars. Reform prison and root out corruption in the police force. End poverty.

    And that will be a good start.
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      CommentAuthorcity creed
    • CommentTimeJun 20th 2009
     (6172.116)
    Wow.
    I was on my feet clapping by the end of that.
    Welcome to WC :)
    • CommentAuthorRobAGD
    • CommentTimeJun 20th 2009
     (6172.117)
    Geeko - You kind of missed the point, you treat criminals the same basic way that you do a child. And the society desides what it considers acceptable punishment for the crime. If the whole thinks rape is a capital crime there is nothing wrong with that. Majority rules as long as they are not oppressing the minority.

    Interesting argument about the capital punishment where it is allowed and not allowed, you also have to remember that it typically takes years and years to actually execute someone sentenced to the death penalty ( here in the US ) so it really isn't much of a deturent, with proper legal reform that might quicken up the process.

    Quixotess - When the nature of man changes from it's fundamentals that may happen, I don't see it happing ever. It is a great thing to wish for and a goal to work towards but it not and IMHO a realistic to expect it.

    Remember Hope is not a plan :D

    and just because you believe it is true doesn't make it true or a fact.

    -Robert
    -Lawful Neutral according to facebook :LOL:
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      CommentAuthorrickiep00h
    • CommentTimeJun 20th 2009
     (6172.118)
    for some *whore*

    I was all with you until this point. And after it, for that matter. Was it really necessary? I mean, I get what you mean, but it also seems to imply that rape victims are automatically whores. Or at least, the ones that press charges are. At least, that's what it implies to me. I might be projecting on what you said.

    Aside from that, I agree all the way. Violent crime is not going away any time soon, and I think by this point it's become obvious that the death penalty (for any violent offense) just isn't getting anywhere.

    But, I'm interested in where this conversation goes in the comic. As I said last week. :-) I'm always more interested in the characters and dialogue than the action, even if it's rendered really well (which it is).
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      CommentAuthormister hex
    • CommentTimeJun 20th 2009
     (6172.119)
    @ Quixotess - I WAS actually clapping by the end of that.

    And your recommendations at the end are all good ideas.

    And I SAID I didn't want to start a debate about capital punishment. And I MOST CERTAINLY DO NOT. My opinions are my own and I don't expect anyone to agree with them. (But I do like to put the cat amongst the pigeons, as it were.)

    Somehow, I believe we're going to see some sort of debate in FreakAngels about capital punishment.
    • CommentAuthorRobAGD
    • CommentTimeJun 20th 2009
     (6172.120)
    Hey as long as it stays civil and is a good debate, unless it is against forums rules it is all good. :)

    This place I think has an awesome cross section of people from different back grounds.

    -Robert