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Printheads: Comic design as graphic movement

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  1.  (6299.41)
    :-) - actually I was more thinking that those guys steal from EVERYBODY - fashion, street culture, whatever. It's easier for them to do that because they can be shallow while under scrutiny

    True. What you're talking about here is more focussed towards advertising (and ad agencies, marketing, etc) — and yes, there are tons of examples of big companies cherry picking ideas from internet memes and whatnot. BUT. Even if you think these practices are despicable, at least there is cross pollination happening. And while something that is commercialized, there's already developing something new at ground level, waiting to be picked up and commercialized — but the creative process and experimentation never stops.

    their message is "listen to this music", "wear this, look sexy", "drink this, be young", "look at me - I'm an artist".

    "Look at my comic", "Read this", "Look at me - I make comics."


    I'm not saying that comics can't incorporate other media ideas/elements - just saying it's harder for them to make it work because what they're trying to say is more varied and complex.

    No its not.
  2.  (6299.42)
    Some of the problem is the feedback that storeowners give Marvel (in my case, obviously I've got no idea what's going on at DC).

    I was told there was pushback against the Secret Warriors covers (they all look the same - we can't tell which issue is which... hint: Bigass number on the front - we even color-code it for you each month). And this is pretty straight forward stuff: more white in a field of Heidelberg jizz makes a cover pop...

    I don't think people grasp the negative effect that the combination of shrinking market, shrinking economy and a suffocating distribution system has on the creators.

    No lie, if this digital stuff takes off you're going to see a goddamn renaissance in the American good-stuff market.
  3.  (6299.43)
    I was told there was pushback against the Secret Warriors covers (they all look the same - we can't tell which issue is which... hint: Bigass number on the front - we even color-code it for you each month). And this is pretty straight forward stuff: more white in a field of Heidelberg jizz makes a cover pop...

    Well, to play the devils advocate here: if I'd be scanning the shelves at a shop I would not notice immediately if it was a new issue or not ("wait, was last month red or green?") — but I see what you mean.

    I don't think people grasp the negative effect that the combination of shrinking market, shrinking economy and a suffocating distribution system has on the creators.

    Yet you still have people like Ivan and Rantz taking a gamble with physical formats, you doing your thing, and people like Kieron and Jamie doing their stuff and experimenting, despite — or maybe in spite of those market situations. I mean, don't tell me it was *just* your writing on Nightly News that got you attention (you know what I mean) and creating a platform to do further things in the future.

    No lie, if this digital stuff takes off you're going to see a goddamn renaissance in the American good-stuff market.

    True, and again — to point towards earlier responses: You'd be working within a strict format (at least in the beginning), so design will have to take the upper hand in setting yourself up differently from the competition.
    •  
      CommentAuthorTF
    • CommentTimeJul 6th 2009 edited
     (6299.44)
    What you're talking about here is more focussed towards advertising


    With regards to marketing products (like Coke) then yeah but CD/book covers (if we're not counting that as advertising) then no and if we're talking about Film then especially no.

    Two films as an example - Paid In Full from Jay-Z's movie division is the story of "A young man from Harlem, forced to cope with the 1980s drug scene, builds an illegal empire, only to have a crisis of conscience." It's a Hip-Hop movie - hip-hop story,soundtrack, pageantry, poster design, cast..........

    Pi from Darren Aronofsky is the story of "A paranoid mathematician searches for a key number that will unlock the universal patterns found in nature." The editing in this movie is based on Hip-hop music - it's sharp like a sampler.

    So one work incorporates aspects of HipHop for the sake of appeal and the other incorporates HipHop as a character device.

    Perhaps the Jay-Z production is to strong an example, my point is most Hollywood stuff incorporates the latest trend as something superficial to make their product appear current to it's audience (as part of the narrative, not the marketing.)


    I think it is more difficult for comics to achieve this because - given it's (simple? pure? - don't know the right word) nature of art+deign+story there needs to be an equilibrium for the final product to work. Other media have the option of hitting you over the head with only one of these elements or with embellishing the elements to create the appearance of it working (this shot doesn't work - add music - add bouncing tits).

    If you're talking about simple cross pollination then of course comics can do this - but -

    I picked up Detective Comics the other week because of the praise it received - I didn't like it.

    It incorporated a lot if the same elements that Kabuki has and Promethea has but it didn't really know where to go with them - and that's all I'm saying - mainstream comics are fine but something like Kabuki isn't going to become more common place if there's a change in the industry.

    What are we talking about? I'm thinking of single issue comics that are unique enough to survive a shrinking market.

    Vertical (which to be fair I don't know how successful that was)
    Image's fantastic comics
    Black Dossier

    Holistic objects. An Amazing Spider-man comic could become a weekly holistic object (is it still weekly?) but it would take a more fundamental change than it's audience will support.
    •  
      CommentAuthorwarrenellis
    • CommentTimeJul 6th 2009 edited
     (6299.45)
    Well, to play the devils advocate here: if I'd be scanning the shelves at a shop I would not notice immediately if it was a new issue or not ("wait, was last month red or green?") — but I see what you mean.





    That's pretty hard to miss.

    Know how I sold Wildstorm on the PLANETARY covers? I told them it'll be the only book on the stands that doesn't look like itself or anything else on its month of release. You'll know PLANETARY by the fact that it's the one that's completely different.
  6.  (6299.46)
    I'm also going to toss this into the mix, because I remain a bit smug about it, because it was my idea (even though Ariana, you know, fixed it, and made it work, and made it pretty, and pretty much did everything, and Mark did shitloads of consultation to define the technological boundaries and etc):






    Which I throw into the mix because, at the time, it asked a question of me: what is the requirement that a comics cover have comics art on it?
    •  
      CommentAuthorhowyadoin
    • CommentTimeJul 6th 2009
     (6299.47)
    I'm also going to toss this into the mix, because I remain a bit smug about it, because it was my idea (even though Ariana, you know, fixed it, and made it work, and made it pretty, and pretty much did everything, and Mark did shitloads of consultation to define the technological boundaries and etc):
    I'd say a big part of what makes that work is how you've promoted yourself as a brand. To a pretty big part of your faithful readership, the key to that cover is those two words at the very top.
  8.  (6299.48)
    That's a whole other discussion, though.
    •  
      CommentAuthorhowyadoin
    • CommentTimeJul 6th 2009
     (6299.49)
    Fair enough. It was just the first thing that popped into my head when I read your post.
  10.  (6299.50)
    I thought the Aetheric Mechanics cover worked because it looked like a proper book rather than a comic. It looked to me like the kind of cover that I'd expect to see on the dust jacket of a hardback novel and not a comic. That's good and it's aiming high.

    I am trying to think how many books I upstairs which have the characters on the front. Or even display any of the variance in visual language that novels have.

    I mean Penguin book covers have become icons of design. They have been selling mugs with the original covers on for quite a while on now. And again, as has been said, the variety in book cover design means that if the cover is well designed it looks different to everything on the shelf. Take a look at the book covers thread from a while back. They all look different.

    Edited to add a little clarity and a link to the mentioned thread.
    •  
      CommentAuthorPaul Sizer
    • CommentTimeJul 6th 2009
     (6299.51)
    Good stuff being bounced around here, wanted to throw in my own two cents, hoping this doesn't look like shameless promotion:
    Obviously, being a self publisher means having almost zero hoops to jump through editorially, but I did put a decent amount of design thought and sketching into how "B.P.M." was going to stand out on the shelves, apart from other comic stuff.


    Like it's been mentioned previously, I went more to album design for this cover, and was basing my ideas more off of people like The Designer's Republic, km7 and Neville Brody, people I dig for the questions they asked about how album art had to look. And like singles from an album, I worked to make each part attached to "B.P.M." look like it came from the parent design to a degree. Here's the layouts for the CD covers I made available for download for the "soundtracks" from iTunes:





    I had a blast working to expand the "B.P.M." brand across all the formats I wanted to put it, without just slapping a logo on everything; I tried to make each part stand on its own and reflect the main book design's vibe and attitude. I've gotten good response from other designers on it, so hopefully it works for a wide range of viewers, tricking in some non-comic readers by having a non-comic look to it.

    It's really great to see all the questioning happing here, and for certain, the risky takes on cover design spoken of in this thread do get me picking up books I know nothing about, so it does work, but then again, I'm an insider, so the real acid test is whether Joe and Jane Comic Consumer are picking it up.
    •  
      CommentAuthorrickiep00h
    • CommentTimeJul 6th 2009
     (6299.52)
    Which I throw into the mix because, at the time, it asked a question of me: what is the requirement that a comics cover have comics art on it?

    I think this plays into (sort of) the hoopla that surrounded the REBORN marketing. People bitched and moaned because people didn't get their art previews or synopses, but the design did exactly what it was supposed to do: it was simple, bold, and created conversation. Granted, that discussion is more of a marketing discussion, but I think it's at least tangentially related: why does a comic need a typical comic marketing/solicit?

    Why does a comic have to be typical?
  13.  (6299.53)
    Good stuff, @Paul Sizer.

    The difference between Aetheric Mechanics and Secret Warriors is that one has a bunch of "S" words jumping at us on the front just like everything Marvel and DC pushes out and the other doesn't. I admit, the white bar is a distinctive touch, but very far from the nice design Johnathan Hickman has done on his creator-owned work.

    It'd be nice to see more designers outside of comics, like the guys at Criterion Collection, coming in and doing cover art. For me, it comes back to subtle and clean design and not cramming ten six pack-injected males onto a cover like movies, video games, and comics typically embrace.
  14.  (6299.54)
    I gotta point out, personally, Aetheric Mechanics would have grabbed my eyeballs by their wee eyeball balls with an iron grip that would crush them into eyeball-sterility regardless of who wrote it. That didn't make sense. Regardless! Beautiful cover.

    Also, I find it interesting this thread has zeroed in on cover design above all else. I understand, as Ellis talked about, the big hump to get over for singles is trying to stand out amongst the sea of homogeneity on the shelves. But it's strange and scary; the more we talk about unique-looking covers, the more mindful I am of '90s-style bullshit like embossed glossy holographic please-stab-me-in-the-eyes glitzy tacky bullshit. I don't know what my point is here.

    Guess it's just I'd love to see more adventurous design on the interiors of books as much as on the covers (and of course there's Hickman and Sizer and others already exploring this), and wonder why we're not talking as much about that. And not just about design on a standard page, but format design that breaks away from the standard . Why the standard dimensions? Why can I only think of a handful of examples that buck the trend, like Last of the Independents or 300 (manga-style digest dimensions don't really feel like they count)? Why aren't there a thousand different shapes and sizes to go along with the thousand different types of comics possible? It seems like 6 x 9 (or whatever it is, I actually have no clue) has more of a hold on comic book page dimensions than the superhero has on genre, or 22 has on page number. To put it oddly.

    Well, I guess I know why to an extent, that type of shit pisses off the collectors who can't easily slide the book into their longbox. But fuck 'em. Completely unrealistic position to take for the sake of the entire industry, but I want ridiculous levels of variety in format as much as I want in subject matter, with thoughtful and compelling design informing every bit of it.
    • CommentAuthorFlabyo
    • CommentTimeJul 7th 2009
     (6299.55)
    Going back to the earlier point about whether we even need a cover given so many people download their entertainment these days, there's an interesting situation with the XBox Live service now.

    Originally, the shop front just listed the names of the games, and there was a small 'banner ad' sized bit of art to go with it.

    They redesigned the entire user interface recently, and part of the redesign was essentially the same as the iTunes album covers list. Which was fine for the retail games, as they had cover art so they all slotted into the new set up fine.

    But the downloadable only games never had cover art done, so they had to go back and put together new cover art for all these games.

    The shop section now looks like a row of games on a shelf, the covers fulfilling the same basic idea as they do at retail, selling the game.

    Also, boxart for US releases of games is often far less imaginative than that of the releases of the same games in the EU or JPN. Companies I've worked for in the past have struggled to get their US partners to agree to run some of the more unusual box artwork. There's a real reluctance to stray from the 'dude with gun' and 'chick with no clothes on' norm coming from the States.
  16.  (6299.56)
    Sheret: "So, to throw it into more familiar terms could Phonogram be released square format in a 7inch record sleeve?"

    Yeah, totally. As McK and I have been talking about, it's unlikely once the Singles Club we'll ever do Phonogram as a traditional singles series again. The exception would be for comics which had to be singles, odd one-off special things which, at least to a degree, are art for art's sake.

    We've talked about doing something 7" size for years, for example. A sleeve would be pushing it further.

    Flabyo: Agreed entirely. Also, by treating your audience as if they're mentally subnormal, you guarantee the audience remains so.

    KG
  17.  (6299.57)
    What Paul is showing is exactly what I was talking about earlier: the crossover. He's taking tropes of design for music and giving it a spin, and mixing logo design with comic art, photos etc to create something that makes you go "hey whats that?" creating a unique look for the book.

    Re: Secret Warriors covers — Yes, isolated that cover looks bold, clear and you spot the title/number immediately, but Chris Ferguson has a point in that that design technique (slicing the cover in 2) has already become common place (remember the homogeny that was Civil War? Excellent from an overall trade dress POV, less so to pick out individual titles) — and now, whenever Marvel is going "sophisticated" it'll either do a cover slice or use Trajan.

    Re: Planetary — A perfect example that design can be smart and attention-grabbing without having to reinvent the wheel (and really playing to the contents of each issue).

    I'll come back to this thread later when I have some time to clear my head.
  18.  (6299.58)
    I think with the possibility of something like Longbox and the fact that if you want to see interior artwork as large as possible - leading to some choosing to wait for ombinuses and absolute editions, the single issues definitely have to try and make it worthwhile for people to pick up.

    It's not simply the price. It can be a question of space. Many simply don't have the space for stacks and stacks of single issues, and I find a monthly book has to have something special to make me pick it up. Something that means it needs a place on my bookshelf. That one little extra incentive can make all the difference.

    Red Rocket 7 in 7" format was a lovely artefact that made you grab off the shelf immediately. Chris Ware continues to produce cover and book designs that make the slightly added cost worthwhile. His McSweeneys #13 with the fold out dustjacket/poster that doubled as pockets for tiny mini comics was just gorgeous.

    The same can be said for CDs and vinyl. While CDs will never quite have the capibilites a vinyl design has in terms of giving you a piece of art you own (size being the main issue), they should still make it so it seems like an affront to the designer/artist to even consider a digital download of the album. I always make sure that any CD artwork commissions I'm given allow me to have full control over the design of the final product. It just makes sense.

    Interior/cover artwork could have paperstock that has to be held up to the light so you can see parts of the artwork, or 3D elements, or fold out sections, or peelable stickers... SOMETHING that makes the tactile product a necessity. Along with back matter that the trade waiters won't get. I mean, as long as all this is central to the story - and not there for novelty value alone.

    Paperstock and format are really important to all this. As mentioned before, the Ignatz issues or Tomine's Optic Nerve just feel right. And the minimalist, beautiful covers make complete sense.

    I'm trying to compile an anthology of London comic artists at the moment and the design and format are at the forefront of my thoughts right now. I think the arguable decline of the monthlies is a blessing in disguise and offers an exciting challenge to artists willing to rise to the challenge.
  19.  (6299.59)
    I think the arguable decline of the monthlies is a blessing in disguise and offers an exciting challenge to artists willing to rise to the challenge.


    Tom, do you still think that would work from an expanded design perspective? The fixed format of (what I'll uncomfortably call) mainstream comics is one of the things that permits the regularity of production. I could see a cycle of singles being put out with the care and attention I think we're looking for, but with a much larger lead time.

    Completely unrealistic position to take for the sake of the entire industry, but I want ridiculous levels of variety in format as much as I want in subject matter, with thoughtful and compelling design informing every bit of it.


    doclivingston - Right there with you, but with this added factor: having something with that variety in my hand, precious as it may be, will always make me want to share it with other people. A shared fetishistic experience is incredibly important in disseminating stories and ideas.

    A sleeve would be pushing it further.


    Do it Kieron. I dare you. I double fucking dare you.
  20.  (6299.60)
    So anyway, back to comic design. The key thing when designing for comics is not to design for comics and approach it like anything else. Let external factors inform your creative decisions.
    When I'm talking about comics, I'm actually talking about monthlies, collections, art books, etc… everything thats connected — because ultimately, the design of a monthly is going to influence the design of the collection.
    And this attitude will no doubt extend to the digital model as well. People who are doing innovative things and designing their comics will continue to do so, people who don't won't change that either.

    Does a comic need to look like a comic? Not really. When I design for comics I don't approach it as a comic (again, look how Paul approached BPM) — and that mentality opens a whole world of possibilities.

    Comic Book Tattoo is designed as an album/over sized CD booklet. 24SEVEN 2 is designed to look like a matrix printer just spat out data. The first Popbot collection has the byline "Symbolic Machine Code", so I designed the book as something that boots up and switches off at the end. VIKING is a celtic punk pamphlet. Event Horizon nods to Metal Hurlant and Epic, but in a decidedly 21st century way, and designed to feel like a magazine rather than a comic. When I had the chance to do short a story in Event Horizon, I designed the story — using the language of the graphic novel, as defined by Goodwin and Kane's Blackmark. And then there's my failed pitch for Testament where I tried to come up with a logo design that was supported by a lot of visual research to really connect with the story.

    Looking at it from the other end: a few years back I was asked to come up with a design concept for a book on Manga by Paul Gravett. My approach was to be much broader in interpretation towards the title and subject matter as a whole. In the end my idea was deemed unsuitable because Paul needed something more to the point — or maybe keep it in a traditional format that was expected? (incidentally, his publisher also produced the infamous 2D>3D book by TDR and NoiseFour by Attik, yet there is little crossover between…)

    Anyway… Thats what I'm trying to say.
    (Sorry for the shameless linking)

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