Whitechapel - FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T04:09:38-07:00

Friday! And we're back with FREAKANGELS.

The thing about go-juice: it doesn't get to my fingers as quickly as it gets to my brain. So you talk now -- say hi, how is, and cetera -- and I drink more. Plan of brilliances, yes.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T04:15:39-07:00

Haha Ariana you sound a bit high there :D

New episode, hooray! Am glad that Warren fit in the discussion with Alice and also the other FAs' reactions to Kait's "visitor room". I just hope that they will be discussing both things in more detail and at length! They did mention something we touched on earlier though, about what gives them the right to decide things? Unfortunately, the position that the FAs are in is that they are the leading group there pretty much. So they are making decisions and deciding what is right and wrong. Not everyone can hide away on their boat to avoid the dilemma/conflict. Someone has to take control/leadership/the blame because structure is how society works best. Whether they wanted to be in this position or not, they have now found out that things need to change and perhaps be regulated in regards to how they deal with rape victims and people they need to 'question'.

It's the first step of many they will have to make. Will they be happy in the end with what they have created? Who knows.

Oh yes, and hi everyone, hope you're all well. I'm currently hungover. But at work. Eating strawberries at my desk. Very happy that it is sunny.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T04:17:21-07:00

Arkady still wins at great lines. Quite a different character for Ellis to do.

Doing some editing and organising.

How hath your week been, Ariana?

Will

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T04:17:35-07:00

Karl seems to be a bit keen to take on the role of guard.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T04:21:41-07:00

Yes, "It smells of poo" was comedy :)
I liked how Alice's eyes seemed to shine a bright green in one scene of this episode - a stark contrast to the FAs' purple eyes reminding us of the fact that she is, indeed, NOT a FA.
Did anyone else think that Alice and Jack (I think that was his name?) were going to kiss?

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T04:22:24-07:00

What a fascinating tale about how frightening it is to become an adult. (It doesn't boil down to only that of course)
And page 5 is brilliant.

Hi Ariana, nice week, so?

@urbanangel: I slightly felt so.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T04:32:27-07:00

Another great week exposing the depth of the Freakangels community. The development is pretty fierce.

Don't know what Kait was expecting, bringing them there. She feels a bit rushed and harried lately, like everything that's going on has her not thinking quite straight.

My week was decent. Just got off work (7AM here). Got a few errands to do, but if all goes well I'll have bourbon in hand before noon.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T04:36:08-07:00

Atavistian - in this episode I got the opposite feeling, that she knew how they would react (she did warn them) but that it's a fact of life and they have to start thinking rationally about how to deal with such situations, so she used it as an opportunity to give them a slap and a wake up call. "This is reality.. now deal with it", so to say.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T04:36:55-07:00

"What about her life would be better...." seemed an awkward or typo'd line but other than that, I thought this was one of the best episodes so far. Real tension, a number of concurrent storylines unfolding, and whilst we still have no idea what's going on it feels as though we're getting closer to something.

Terrific art as ever, of course.

Missed this last week, and with the cricket frustrating, this was a good and welcome addition to an otherwise irritating day ending an irritating week.

Beer tonight. Yes, sir.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T04:37:35-07:00

While Arkady's comment was nicely hilarious, it also helped stopped the argument that had been brewing, maybe Arkady made the comment then with the express purpose of defusing what was quickly becoming an explosive situation.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T04:38:45-07:00

Hm. Fair enough, fair enough, I can definitely see your point. I just keep thinking back to her reaction after they promised not to say anything and utterly failed, but I suppose that could be born of disappointed anger rather than surprised anger.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T05:02:10-07:00

Page 6, panel 4, the legs look off.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T05:17:14-07:00

Wow. This one was a really engaging read. Loved it.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T05:17:56-07:00

I like the "Luke Bench". Everyone should take a turn.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T05:31:55-07:00

I laughed SO HARD at page one, panel one. I was completely not expecting it. Great way to start the morning.

I'm not sure if I've made this claim in weeks previous, but this is, by far, my favorite episode. The originality of the Luke Bench (seriously, who saw that coming?), Paul's physical framing of the torture argument between Alice and Jack, all of the dialogue, all of it. I think the only thing I've noticed about the colorist change is that the sky seems a bit more blue. Which, I suppose, makes everything else pop a little more, too.

Thanks for making such a great comic, ladies and gents. Seriously. This is the best thing money can't buy (unless one feels like paying for it a couple months later.)

Oh, and who else is a little... nervous... about Kirk in the last panel? I don't know that I'd trust him alone with someone like Luke. It could only get ugly.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T05:36:58-07:00

YES.

That was excellent. An ethical dilemma, actually articulated and not just mired in the usual posturing and pontifficating. That's just excellent. Sexual violence is so often handled in comics with all the delicacy of a burning ember, seeing characters actually talking about it like grown-ups, especially confused and morally questionable grown-ups, so very excellent. The abortive "Supergirls Panties" thread this week devolved into that awful mire of "what about guyz gettin' rapeded? Cannt rapez the willin!" bullshit, for which I apologize.

Great stuff, all in the eyes and smoke this week Paul. Well done.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T05:54:42-07:00

Warren once said in his work Available Light that life is something not to be observed but something to be lived in order to be understood. {I paraphrase.}
I have been silent on the RAPE issue because like Jack, some things I should be silent upon. However, I am qualified to address the desire that a Sirkka was really there for me in that I would love to be whole and without the residue of cancer. Oh well! Guess we really are who we are because of the life and decisions we have made prior to any given moment.

There was a certain significance to the episode today for me, as I had a close personal acquaintance be stricken with bad news and almost some of the same 'bottom line' questions are relevant within our conversations.

Hello Ariana; your plan is indeed sound.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T05:56:10-07:00

This episode was totally awesome.

Two tasty ethical dilemmas. Here's hoping no one ever tries to bring them up as if they have any relevance in real life. Sirkka still bites, and Jack's "I don't get to have an opinion about this" is cowardly bullshit, but fits him.

@liamshiels: yeah, he looks odd, and I think I've been spending too much time at photoshop disasters as all the necks look quite odd to me, especially Alice's in page two panel three.

Edit: And a baby farm? for food? how ridiculously inefficient. You have to invest all the energy you get that makes the baby, and then some, during the pregnancy. For what? How many meals does that tiny thing make? And too much of it would be brain or bone. That's just incredibly, uh, not believable. Maybe he's lying?

Edit edit: beaten to it.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T05:56:21-07:00

@ orwelles_eyes - Too bad about that thread. Wasn't your fault.

Violence is rarely presented well in comics at all. (Nobody talks that much while they fight, Captain America.) And just like real life, when you try to do the right thing, it opens up a whole host of new problems.

'Babies for food" was what got me. (Seems a rather inefficient method of producing food but it sounds like they were doing it on a large scale and that is horrifying.) So that's why Sirkka has a harem and is trying to "reinvent human relationships" - to socialize people away from violence and the "I want it, I'll take it" Mentality.

I am still feeling a bit stabby lately but I'm getting there. Gonna drink a beer and watch Quincy and maybe go see my sister later.

Great stuff Warren, Paul, Ariana, Kate and anyone else I'm forgetting.
How far away are we from the end of Volume Three and the beginning of Volume Four?

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T06:00:33-07:00

My first time on the forums - though I've browsed before to make sure the fauna is mostly harmless.

When Jack reminded me that it's been less than a week since Alice came along, that pretty much blew my mind. It seems like it's all been happening for so long! I need to reread the whole thing to regain the sense of immediacy, Ithink.

Chalk me up as another person who's a bit leery of Karl.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T06:01:22-07:00

@mister hex - I believe we're on a 24-episode cycle, so by my maths, 11 eps til the end of Volume Three.

Obviously, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T06:03:16-07:00

UPDATE - No Quincy today, as they're showing the wretched Legend of Kung Fu (shot in Toronto in the 90's).

And I'm looking forward to some great two-handed dialogue scenes between Kirk & Luke. (And no, I don't mean a beating but okay, yes, that too.)

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T06:24:18-07:00

This probably won't make me popular, but I side with Sirkka on the question of what part of being raped would make your life better. If you stop to consider the sheer amount of damage that rape does and that it will affect a person negatively for the rest of their lives, how does surviving it make them a better person? Yeah it takes guts to rebuild your life, learn to trust again (if you ever do) and carry on after an experience that renders you powerless in your own body in the most 'you' place you have; but how does that make your life better? Life has so many challenges to throw at you anyway that rape really is unnecessary - so to speak.

Also, from a purely practical point of view, in the FA Whitechapel they need as many functional people as they can get if they're genuinely planning to create civilisation.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T06:35:57-07:00

Hex: I don't think having a bunch of pregnancies at the same time makes the strategy feasible. Each pregnancy still requires months of extra feeding which is certainly in excess of what you get back from eating an infant, even one that's been nursed for a month or so. The infants of starving mothers will certainly not weigh more than ten pounds, as healthy birthweight for a 37-40 week old newborn is between 6 pounds 2 ounces and 9 pounds 2 ounces. (2.8-4.1KG)

Additionally, the mother's mobility will suffer for months, she will be less able to contribute to finding food for some time--even more so when you are keeping her captive, obviously--and the labor may kill her. Then you've just been feeding lots of food to a woman who is now dead and cannot pay it back, except in seven measly pounds of meat. I understand that babies are meat that come from, say, grain and fruit, but if meat is what you're after, and you're not shying away from cannibalism or "rape camps," it is clearly more efficent to kill and eat an adult.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T06:44:43-07:00

but if meat is what you're after, and you're not shying away from cannibalism or "rape camps," it is clearly more efficent to kill and eat an adult

But with that kind of thinking we wouldn't have lovely & tender lamb shanks, just 'orrible old tough-as-boots Mutton chops.

nb. I am not an advocate of Rape Farms, baby eating, or cannabilism in general, before anybody takes me seriously

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T06:53:52-07:00

My eyes are always automatically drawn to the words in comic strips - it's very hard for me to change my focus and look at a picture overall. So when I started reading the first panel and then suddenly noticed they were sat on Luke, it was quite funny!

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T06:58:42-07:00

Perhaps in rape camps, baby farms for food, efficiency isn't the point.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T06:59:03-07:00

jesus... I forget that in FreakAngels time it's only been a week or so.. DAAAAAaamn!

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T07:01:30-07:00

mc2: what is the point?

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T07:04:47-07:00

Perhaps in rape camps, baby farms for food, efficiency isn't the point.

Applying the logic of a well-lit room with a stocked fridge in proximity to horrifying soul-crushing nightmare starvation scenario is never going to be satisfying.

People in extremis are rarely good with the resource management.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T07:21:26-07:00

....uh. In the actual lives of actual people living in poverty globally, right now, in this world, are there *many* examples of people farming babies for sustenance?

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T07:24:33-07:00

....uh. In the actual lives of actual people living in poverty globally, right now, in this world, are there *many* examples of people farming babies?

North Korean famine in the 90's, some of the more savage famines in Africa.

Again, I don't think this is meant to be a formalized idea.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T07:25:16-07:00

....uh. In the actual lives of actual people living in poverty globally, right now, in this world, are there *many* examples of people farming babies?

Farming babies would appear to be historical fact, given archaeological evidence of recent years. Growing children for food would appear to be in our primitive genetic record.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T07:41:43-07:00

Based on the recentr historical record (e.g. Bonsia) the purpose of rape camps isn't to produce food in the most economci way possible.

It's to;

1. Force ALL supporters of The Cause to participate in the worst crimes of The Cause, so they can't back out later.

2. To humiliate not just the immediate victims but their male kin and their spouses; and

3. to demonstrate your absolute power over The Enemy.

Eating the progeny is really just an added bonus.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T07:52:40-07:00

Farming babies would appear to be historical fact, given archaeological evidence of recent years.

Truly? Any links/references...? It'll be interesting to see how real life baby farms worked out... because its not making sense in my head now - my guess is that the farms usually collapse after a few months due to the inefficiency pointed out by Quixotess, which would mean the Freakangels stormed the baby farm when it was in its infancy..(pun intended)..before people realized how dumb they were or ran out of food for all those mothers.

The whole eating babies debate reminded me of Jonathan Swift's Modest Proposal (http://art-bin.com/art/omodest.html), which tries to prove that eating babies is a perfectly rational method to deal with overpopulation. =)

Seems like poor people procreate more - I guess that doesn't make sense either since the more babies you have, the harder it is to feed them and their mother during pregnancy..

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T08:04:59-07:00

I don't keep a link to everything I've ever read, sorry.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T08:06:05-07:00

Farming babies would appear to be historical fact, given archaeological evidence of recent years. Growing children for food would appear to be in our primitive genetic record.

we should all know by now that we can count on warren to do his research and get the facts straight, historically and otherwise. I'm sure there's historical support for the mention of the 5 freed rape victims killing themselves as well.

I'm surprised no one here has pointed out that, in this episode more than any other, warren seems to be giving voice to the debates and opinions that have raged in these forums for the last three weeks re: sirkka's "rape care" and kait's torture chamber. (not that warren didn't have it all plotted out to begin with. please don't read this as an invitation for arse eels) but all of the speculative rationalizations that we piled up on either side of both these arguments are now effectively, and in-story, laid to rest. phew! not to mention jack's "not allowed to have an opinion" opinion. I've always been sympathetic to this point when it comes to issues dealing with the uterus (rape, abortion, natural child-birth, etc)

speaking of jack, I was as amused as Alice at the setup for the Freud joke. lol.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T08:08:32-07:00

The contrast between the talk between Alice and Jack and the heated discussion in the background was nice. The content as well, of course. It deals sensibly with a sensible topic. Can't decide which side I would be on. Kind of a "red pill, blue pill"-dilemma. By the way, the whole "baby for food"-discussion reminded me a something a never understood about the "Matrix" - feeding the dead to the living - how's that supposed to work?

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T08:16:57-07:00

@Citizen Freak - From a digestion/nutrient standpoint, meat is meat, whether it comes from animals or humans.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T08:24:59-07:00

Powerful comic. And it is nice to see "rape crime" isn't "either or" for the 'Angels.

As to the "Greeting Room" - at least Arkady doesn't say it's human poo, so it is theater to weaken and persuade.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T08:50:08-07:00

Hello there alltogether.
Thought I step out of lurking arround here. I especially liked how both Alice and Jack think the other one's the chaperone. For a moment i pictured the others turning arround after they are done talking and there are Jack and Alice with Luke without Lukes head. "you know how it goes..." priceless:D
Anyone remember Karl saying: "You and me Kirk. We take care of bussines. I killed him [Mark]. Expect, apparently I didn't."?
I think he's not the best qualified to freak out on Kait. "Kill or be killed" is not much better than Kaits arbitrary law. Likewise I would not be comfortable having Kirk sitting Guard on Luke, except for...well the guys an asshole. Wonder what they'll decide on in the Luke-mess.
They can't let him loose, 2 against 10 are way worse odds than 1 against 10. And I think we could take it for granted that Luke and Mark would be two peas in a pot.
So, I'm excited to see where this is going!
And until then I'll just got my last exam this semester on monday, and then summertime! Yeah :D

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T09:47:05-07:00

I also liked Kait's rationale for her "visiting room" - Justice is like sausages. Nobody wants to see how its made.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T09:55:55-07:00

Jack is my favorite this week. He's totally aware of the group's flaws. Lots of time to think out on that boat, I bet.

We know Sirkka is off with the victim, but where's Miki? I can't see how Mr. Dead Guy could be keeping her away. And I'm sure she'll have plenty of opinions about Kait's torture chamber and about what should be done with Luke.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T09:57:23-07:00

Good episode. I like that Jack's not taking sides on the matter. Because, sometime you can't. You can have an opinion, but you can't take a side.

I did notice that Alice is sitting on Lukes crotch, which makes me wonder what he's going to say if she's still sitting there when he wakes up. :)

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T09:58:42-07:00

cjtremlett: Miki is probably off with the victim as well. Being the closest thing to a doctor that Whitechapel has, she'd probably want to just check her out, to make sure Sirkka didn't miss anything.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T10:10:23-07:00

Just got back from watching the steaming pile of refuse that is Transformers 2 (my friends really wanted to see it for some insane reason), so it's great to plunge back into some real storytelling (or at least storytelling that doesn't have plot holes big enough to fly a C-130 through).

I note that Alice didn't pick up on Jack's comment that the FA's were "stupid kids with lots of guilt" on page 2. We know what they're guilty of but (as far as we're aware) Alice doesn't. So did she miss it, or is she assuming it's just generalised survivor guilt?

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T10:16:15-07:00

I actually have a horrible sense of foreboding considering the Kirk/Luke confrontation; ref. the last panel on page four, ep. nine.

ETA Link.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T10:17:51-07:00

Finding it weird that people would argue the technical flaws of a baby farm method of subsistence. It doesn't need to be efficient, and it's not likely the sole source of food they had... And anyway, you guys are clearly missing the point on the baby farm thing: babies are fucking delicious. Even the underweight ones.

Er.

Great episode. More intelligence and pertinent argument in this episode than in the last few weeks of corresponding threads. Wonderful work guys.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T10:33:16-07:00

@ doc -

babies are fucking delicious. Even the underweight ones.

So's lamb. And veal. Suckling pig. Caviar. Maggots are a good source of protein. Humans eating babies is definitely in our genetic memory. Why not our own? Monstrous? Perhaps. You get hungry enough, you'll eat ANYTHING. Why do you think Arby's stays in business?*

If you think "Oh, that's terrible, no one could ever do that", chances are the Romans or the Mongols or the Turks or somebody used to do it all the time.

Which made me think of Romans and their punishments. The punishment for patricide was something like a good, thorough whipping (Nobody whips like Romans! Nobody!) and then they'd sew you into a burlap sack with 1) a lynx 2) a dog 3) a game cock and 4) either a badger or a boar, can't remember. Sew you all up in the bag and chuck it in the Tiber.

Wonderful people, the Romans. I expect Luke's punishment will be less elaborate. But I bet Kirk is going to talk to him as much as kick the shit out of him. (By 'talk', I mean 'scream at'.)

*I am in no way implying that Arby's serves human meat, babies or otherwise. Not sure WHAT their meat is. Think waaay more legs, for one thing.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T10:45:09-07:00

Thrilled by the demented idea of a baby farm.

Questioning the motivations behind people capable of rape and cannibalism (when the being hadn't already passed of natural causes) is absurd. The guys are sick fucks. It's that simple.

Here's an idea that has some logical thought behind it: hallowing out a baby corpse to transport illegal drugs on an airplane.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T10:57:32-07:00

Walker James is back! Yay!

Things like baby farms are why Kait is Fucking Busy. Not everyone in Whitechapel does the right thing, all the time. She's probably got to sort out stupid shoving matches over who-did-what-to-whom, while keeping an eye out for the REAL bad'uns who'll go after kids or just do as they like. Until they get put in Kait's room. And then ...

I had a friend who worked with children in a theatre group. He told them "If you don't be good, we'll put you in the Cupboard of Understanding. And then, you'll Understand." The kids followed him like the Pied Fucking Piper and if they ever asked to SEE the Cupboard of Understanding? Because if you see it, you're going in it. Bye Bye. Understand now?

Plus there's a murderer on the loose that NONE OF THE OTHER FA's know about, other than Miki. (Who is Sam to Kait's Quincy.)

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T10:58:36-07:00

in regards to the baby farm, who said they ate the babies once they were born naturaly. and who's to say they didnt eat the mother too after using her for some 'fun'.

on a lighter note, page 5 is my overall fav from the whole thing. it's kady's reaction that just makes me giggle.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T11:15:02-07:00

...? Is that arguing against my post, Hex, or just running along with the point that it's silly people are nitpicking the baby farm thing? I can't tell.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T11:20:01-07:00

I just want to thank Warren, Paul, and Ariana...

...and to say that Jack's not a coward for his opinion. It really isn't his place to decide what's best for someone who's been violated in a way he has no experience with. He didn't say he wouldn't do everything in his power to protect or help said victim, just that it's not his place to choose the best course of action when it comes to their own memories and bodies.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T11:20:48-07:00

@Maestro

I actually have a horrible sense of foreboding considering the Kirk/Luke confrontation; ref. the last panel on page four, ep. nine.

ditto. forgot to mention it earlier, posting quickly at work, but ditto. if Luke's the strongest besides 'Kady, then someone should definitely sit with Kirk.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T11:21:21-07:00

Shouldn't this be in the Freakangels thread, and not London Zoo? If I'm confused, never mind me, I've not been so well this week, and all kinds of things are just not making sense for me.

Jack is still my favorite of the 'angels. He keeps striking me as one of the most 'mature' of the bunch.

Karl volunteering to watch over Luke struck me as suspicious too. He did kick his ass just a week or so ago.

I wonder sometimes what it was the Luke did ( or if I've just forgotten, because that's the kind of July I'm going to have... ) originally that made all the other Freakangels treat him the way they do - and if maybe enough of being ostracized by the only other people remotely like him eventually finished making an utter bastard of him.
Obviously he's been doing the sort of thing that's ended him up where he is now for a while, but was that what got him pushed out originally, too? Or did he do something that's not really all that different from much of what the others are up to a lot of days?

Was he Mark's best friend once upon a time?

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T11:21:40-07:00

rogue typo on page 3, panel 4.

Should be "whose", not "who's"

Good stuff.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T11:24:40-07:00

Completely agreed Indigo.

And it's not about rape being a "uterus" issue as someone else posted here. It's a specific trauma issue. If you haven't gone through it, how can you possibly know anything worth a damn about it? Rape with a big R is genderless. (Not to invite that Thing We Talked About In That Thread That Died into this thread...)

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T11:29:09-07:00

Looks like the denizens of Whitechapel seem to take Jonathan Swift's writing a bit too seriously.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T11:40:13-07:00

Horrifyingly fasinating installment this week.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T11:51:14-07:00

So is this where I break out Modest Proposal references and Baby-back-rib recipes?
Baby-eating --- or cannibalism, in general does have a historical precedent, and there are some populations that seem to carry genetic adaptations that would allow them to be better capable of dealing with consuming primate flesh (Be it from humans, chimps or whatnot), as apparently evidenced by some population's resistance to kuru and mad cow disease (If I recollect correctly).Cannibalism of related and unrelated young during times of stress and as a method of social bonding has been observed among chimps near the Gombe region for some time now.

Also, in times of high stress, the logical problems of a babyfarm might not be on the forefront of the people's minds. If they're worried enough about basics and feeling terribly insecure about such things it might've just not occured to them that the cycle of the babyfarm could not continue. In addition to creating a supply of food, the babyfarm may have provided its operators with some social 'bonuses' in terms of feelings of power and control, in a world where they they may have felt no power. By objectifying others to an extreme point.

I'm wondering if the survivors of the babyfarm are still around WC, and how the ones who weren't mindwiped coped versus the one who was. If you didn't remember something happening and everyone else DID, the process of simply knowing you didn't know, or not being able to trust your own memories would be severely disorienting.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T11:57:08-07:00

@ doc - Roo said it best. Birds do it, bees do it and all that. (I love babies but I couldn't eat a whole one.)

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T12:04:35-07:00

I'm also wondering if the FAs sometimes screwed things up when they were learning their powers. Accidentally turning people into vegetables, things of that sort.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T12:07:21-07:00

FA's is just so- damn- good. Thanks.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T12:15:12-07:00

Typo watch: page 1, panel 1, Alice says "Sirrka" instead of Sirkka.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T12:23:46-07:00

I am so in love with the first page! I want my own unconscious Luke to sit on.
Also, Great back-story! I don't think that's what Johnathan Swift had in mind when he wrote A Modest Proposal.

Woke up around 2:30pm... brilliant. But I can't seem to get to sleep until the sun comes to full rise.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T12:56:42-07:00

....Hex, you misread my point. I'm not the one saying the baby farm doesn't make sense. I'm the one saying people are silly for saying the baby farm doesn't make sense.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T12:58:11-07:00

What had me interested was Sirkka's way of helping people deal with rape by wiping it away. I can really go either way on this--on one hand, I can see how it'd technically be better for the victim to have the trauma removed from them. Like someone else mentioned, that's a form of life kicking you in the bits that people don't really need.

On the other hand, it does take away from the victim's ability to choose. What if the person doesn't want their mind and body tempered with even more? Shouldn't they be able to choose whether they want to forget it or not? Isn't it still violating someone's mind and body, even if it's to heal rather than destroy?

Very, very interesting stuff. Great show, Warren, Paul and co.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T13:01:05-07:00

I'm wondering if the survivors of the babyfarm are still around WC, and how the ones who weren't mindwiped coped versus the one who was. If you didn't remember something happening and everyone else DID, the process of simply knowing you didn't know, or not being able to trust your own memories would be severely disorienting.

Heavily edited: I just recalled the mention that they filled in victims' blanks with depression-induced oversleeping or other faux memories, meaning no disturbing seams to unravel. And minimum tweaking on others' memories perhaps...?

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T14:28:03-07:00

I think Sirkka should pose as a hypnotist and offer a service to "hypnotize" the experience away... that way people will have a choice. And she could give it away for free, so even the badly burned skeptics might give it a try.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T14:45:17-07:00

@ doc - Sirkka only did that to one victim, the one who hadn't conceived. The rest fully remember their time imprisoned and I imagine might wish otherwise but ... best not to go around messing with people's minds.

And as to your earlier point, doc - complaining about the baby farm doesn't make sense. Plus it's only a story, right?

Also - "rape camps" in Bosnia were like "comfort stations" in the Pacific during the Second World War. (They didn't eat the babies but babies were an unavoidable by product. In both comfort stations and rape camps, the women usually "worked" well into the second trimester.) Also, pregnant women can do things, plenty of things. Usually involving sitting down.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T14:50:32-07:00

...and to say that Jack's not a coward for his opinion. It really isn't his place to decide what's best for someone who's been violated in a way he has no experience with. He didn't say he wouldn't do everything in his power to protect or help said victim, just that it's not his place to choose the best course of action when it comes to their own memories and bodies.

Of course it isn't his place, and it isn't Sirkka's either. Nothing about having a uterus makes Sirkka qualified to decide what's best for someone's memory and body any more than Jack is. It's not an argument for women, and it's not even about what women should do. Nothing about taking a position in this argument necessitates making a declaration on what rape survivors ought to choose.

I'm also somewhat surprised by the person who said Jack was the most mature of the Freakangels, given his tendency to refuse to deal with problems. He can have the most mature opinion in the world, but he's avoiding working towards solutions.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T14:52:02-07:00

On the other hand, it does take away from the victim's ability to choose. What if the person doesn't want their mind and body tempered with even more? Shouldn't they be able to choose whether they want to forget it or not? Isn't it still violating someone's mind and body, even if it's to heal rather than destroy?

And once again it's good to remember that there is a difference between doing the right thing and doing the least wrong thing. In some situations all one can do is the least wrong thing.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T16:14:08-07:00

Hex, I'm just confused as to why you keep responding directly to me about "complaining about the baby farm" when that's entirely not what I've done. To rehash a point I've already made. Because it's apparently needed. Jesus. ETA: unless I'm just blatantly misreading things, but I've been asking for clarity and it's not really been provided.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T16:23:18-07:00

Who would want to remember being raped? It's not like you could take something positive out of the experience. In such a traumatic situation ignorance is bliss, and I think purple was right to do what she did.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T16:27:13-07:00

You can't always be certain that's what a person wants. Who's to say a rape victim wouldn't loathe the idea of someone messing with their mind, feeling it to be just as much a violation as the rape itself?

The "least wrong thing" is really accurate, but there was still an even better (though not perfect) choice: approach the rape victim with the offer, which has the effect of revealing the FAs' powers, and make it clear that if they choose to not have the rape erased from their memory, the FAs will still have to erase the offer of the choice and the reveal of their powers. It still ultimately forces them to undergo mental manipulation, but it's far more defensible and allows the victim some agency in what's done to them. Even if they won't remember.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T16:27:46-07:00

Removed: I mistakenly thought this was about episode 60 as had not realized a new Freak Angels was out.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T16:30:54-07:00

What's being talked about that doesn't relate to the comic?

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T16:46:42-07:00

I for one welcome passionate Whitechapel discussion, but still, this thread isn't the place for "Are you trying to say something about my post?". Leave personal anger out of your words in this thread, is probably a good rule. And just leave that fucking issue to rest already.

\\\

"Least wrong thing" is a good way of viewing "Purple's" actions. It's not just a morality question, it's also (or mostly) practicality. Broken people aren't safe to keep around in a rebuilding community. The alternatives to mind-wipe which the Freakangels considered were: let the victims be a cancer on progress, or simply kill them.

The Freakangels faced a tough call, made their choice, were left with questions. The virtue of this comic's treatment of big issues, as Orson mentioned, is that it is only recording the fact, not preaching to us. It certainly wasn't an invitation for fellow readers to start wondering who they'd eat first on a lost lifeboat.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T16:51:06-07:00

Doc - Hex - shut the fuck up now, both of you.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T16:58:39-07:00

I tend to agree with CocoBijou. And Doc, I never said you were complaining. It's all good, bro. We cool?

Whitechapel is like a medieval town, in many ways. You're an asshole, you do time in the stocks. You're a REAL asshole the we all hate? Bye Bye. See Kait's "Alternative Methods" of making people leave Whitechapel forever.

A bit apocryphal and I can't vouch for the veracity but I heard somewhere the origin of the term "being fired" meant "we burned down your house and don't want you in our town. Please leave now."

Whitechapel doesn't have a prison. And like Jack said in this ep, they're not good at thinking clearly sometimes. And Kait is Fucking Busy. There's a murderer on the loose that none of the others know about. When's she gonna tell them? And a late theory from the last episode (60) is that maybe Kait resurrected Mark and didn't tell anybody about it. That's her special FA power, right? Resurrecting things? Hurm.

It's all just whistling past the graveyard anyway, as Warren will do whatever he likes. It's his story. It's only a story. An incredibly interesting one, one that obviously strikes deep to the human condition. I did find it interesting that this episode included an information dump on the Ethical Issues Inherent In Whatever The Hell We've Been Talking About. I'm really looking forward to Kirk and Luke being locked up together. Kirk's not gonna let him get away with this. They've known each other since they were kids. (They were in the same village? Or they knew each other's minds because of the FA Package? Miki seems to be of Asian extraction, Caz's parents are Jamaican. No South Asian FreakAngels, I see. But hard to tell and we haven't seen Mark yet.)

They've been living with this for SEVEN YEARS, everyone has. We've been in their world the equivalent of a week? Warren's got the edge on us. And he's waiting right around the corner, holding a parang and just waiting ...

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T17:08:08-07:00

I'm glad that this episode had a little backstory as to how the citizens were surviving before being, "saved," by the FreakAngels. It was nice to get so much information in two short pages. Kait's dungeon was not nearly as horrific as I had tried to prepared for. :) Concise plot and storytelling, lush art, and as always looking forward to the next episode.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T17:16:19-07:00

"IT SMELLS OF POO! What? It DOES." rivals "CHIKKENZZ!" as my favorite Arkady line.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T17:22:44-07:00

I get the impression people got angrier than I ever was about my confusion and search for clarity (very little personal anger at any point honestly). I'm sure I was being thick, apologies to all for that, but mayyybe cussing at people to calm down or leave it doesn't quite make sense in this particular context. (That was aimed at Brian, not you Mister Ellis sir, but I'm fully prepared for a lengthy time-out/rain of hellfire/perma-ban regardless...) Anywho, yeah, we're definitely cool Hex. I'm just apparently having a breakdown in reading comprehension today. As fully evinced by this very comment! Apologies again to all for being a pain in the ass.

Regarding the practicality that Brian talked about, I like phrasing it as an eminent domain issue (though that's maybe incorrect). The people that run things see a clear need to impinge on the rights of a few of the community's members. There's other things at play obviously, the ethical questions remain, but I can't get riled up by the FAs actions if they're done with good intentions and clear needs in mind. Between trying to save a rape victim from potential suicide after having that demonstrated as a clear risk, trying to begin building up a healthy and functional community overall, and all the while trying to keep a lid on their powers in light of the likely difficulties that a reveal could bring upon them... yeah. It makes sense. Although I wouldn't quite phrase the alternative as "letting the victims be a cancer on progress", as there were surely possibilities more in the range of steadily building those victims back up to a healthy place while the rest get on with starting up a real community.

I do love that everything's being deftly treated as thorny, hazy issues. Really hoping next episode has just as much if not more direct discussion of the varying sides and arguments as this week's did.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T17:45:35-07:00

Intentional logistical issues for a baby farm aside, the rape camp to "for food" timeline helps hint at how long it was between the deluge/collapse of civilization and when the 'Angels settled into Whitechapel. It's been established that they were born and seemed to be raised in London, and I thought an earlier episode (when they first hid in the Foundry, after coming to some powers of the package, but before destroying the world) implied they'd carried on in Whitechapel, not that they left.

In any case, there was a bit of time between drowning London and establishing civilization in Whitechapel.

I love what a great look this is at reestablishing civilization, civil order, ethics and so on. Folks have to think through what's going on, but in real time. They half remember what their parents/teachers/etc preached, but have to apply it now to strangers and comrades alike. No hypotheticals, like we're arguing here. (Yes, yes, they're fictional, they live in Warren's brain, but still.)

Thanks for another fascinating episode.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T18:32:48-07:00

(Yes, yes, they're fictional, they live in Warren's brain, but still.)

... But still, they're REAL (kind of) and it's a testament to Warren's skill as a writer that so many people feel so strongly about this that they endlessly speculate and comment on this story. We all hate Luke because we saw him being a cunt and that's a testament to Paul's skills as an artist. (We all laughed when we saw Luke being used as a bench and perhaps, an ashtray.)

And it's Kirk guarding him, not Karl. (I know, I had a hard time telling them apart. Both bald skinny dudes. Maybe that's why Arkady shaved her head? Probably not.) Karl has the tin-foil hat. Kirk has sunglasses and a vest. (Kirk also beat the shit out of Luke way back in Vol. 1. He hates him. HAAAATES him.) Gonna be a sweet interrogation scene coming up. Even if Kait's Fucking Busy and can't be there to add to the intimidation value. Kirk's not gonna let him get away with this. Maybe a stern talking-to will bring Luke around. (Not hopeful of that, though.)

And ... KK's gonna give shit to Sirkka. THAT'LL be interesting. (Fuck! Is it next Friday yet?)

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T19:40:00-07:00

It's been established that they were born and seemed to be raised in London, and I thought an earlier episode (when they first hid in the Foundry, after coming to some powers of the package, but before destroying the world) implied they'd carried on in Whitechapel, not that they left

No, it hasn't been. Reread the below.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T20:36:28-07:00

@ johnjones - thank you. And Caz is obviously Jamaican, yeah? But FreakAngels pale. And Miki is obviously of Asian descent. (Obvious to me, anyway.) In fact, other than Caz, there are no blond FA's. (Luke's a bit ginger, I suppose.)

What IS "The FreakAngel Package"? Where did it come from? Is it natural?

And - Alice doesn't know they destroyed the world. Yet.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T20:49:56-07:00

Caz is of Jamaican heritage (her parents were from there) but isn't Jamaican herself. It reminds me a little bit of that Cho Chang girl from the Harry Potter movie when she talks in that Scottish accent. Cracks me up. Though not nearly as much as hearing an Asian person speak in a really deep Southern accent.

I just noticed looking at the picture that Caz appears to have freckles. I have never seen a black person with freckles. Is that a side effect of the package?

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T21:07:50-07:00

@johnjones, it's totally possible. And actually, not all that uncommon. White people just tend to have freckles more often, for obvious reasons.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T21:12:44-07:00

Nope. They gots freckles just like you and me. I have a freind who has a lighter skin tone and you can see her freckles if you squint really hard.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T21:15:27-07:00

Oh, and I think Miki looks more Korean. KK might be asian though, if her name is any indication.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T21:15:27-07:00

I can also confirm that black people have freckles. Men and women. Racial differences are largely superficial, vis a vis biology. Obviously, the FA Package doesn't discriminate.

ETA - KK's name is half-Japanese.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T21:33:06-07:00

Actually Caz's parents weren't Jamaican, her great grandparents were.

(Assuming "two generations out" means what I think it means).

Also Warren mentioned at some point that KK's names (Japanese and Scandinavian) have nothing to do with any racial heritage and everything to do with her hippy parents.

EDIT: And Caz's hair wasn't always completely blonde.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T22:41:00-07:00

Ah I was thinking of episode 30 and conflated that warehouse with the foundry.

@johnjones Never got 'round to checking up on South East England geography so I don't know how to plot the references in that panel. No idea how close or far that village is to London/Whitechapel. (I know Whitechapel is in London, I can use Wikipedia.)

When Alice first meets Caz she remarks that Caz certainly looks of African descent and then, if I'm not confusing this like I have other facts, Caz says pale skin and purple eyes is part of the package. Apparently so is an nifty metabolism that makes you skinny and rarely hungry. All we know for sure about how the package expressed itself if that it came in some time during the 'Angels teens. Before then (we've been told) they looked a bit more like everyday folk - Connor was even overweight.

We don't know if it's natural or man made or what exactly the package is, let alone where it came from. We only know the 'Angels were born at the same time and are from the same village. Powers... aww...read the thing yourself. Two books and counting and it's a great story. }:>

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-10T22:42:25-07:00

Only thinking about it again because of the page posted... I wonder if Warren decided to have the 'Angels come from Southend-on-Sea.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-11T01:39:32-07:00

@razrangel - I can't find any reference to them hailing from the same village, only their simultaneous birth. I'm not saying that you're wrong, but could you point out the issue? I'm a lazy bugger this early in the morning.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-11T01:41:33-07:00

It's mentioned right in that page that johnjones posted just up the page a bit, Ray.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-11T01:53:08-07:00

Dick bags, So it is. Thanks, haha!

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-11T02:46:19-07:00

@razrangel - Kait had at least some of her powers at a young age (there was that flashback when she failed at resurrecting the bird). And it's possible that Connor used to eat so much that the package couldn't keep up :)

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-11T03:00:07-07:00

I'm completely with Sirkka -- "surviving" and "dealing" are only really options because you can't ordinarily make the bad things go away.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-11T05:47:25-07:00

Only thinking about it again because of the page posted... I wonder if Warren decided to have the 'Angels come from Southend-on-Sea.

No.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-11T07:20:38-07:00

I liked this weeks a lot. Enough that I will buy this volume when it is complete. An ethical talking point discussed sat on the body of an unconscious prisoner. A nice irony. Arkady providing a defuse moment for a heated argument was also good.

One of the things I love about Freak Angels is the post apocalyptic social grouping. It's, from what I read, an anarcho-commune style with these (supposedly) remorse ridden guardians. And what DOES one do with the guardians who misbehave?

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-11T07:51:34-07:00

And what DOES one do with the guardians who misbehave?

I believe we're about to find out since that appears to be the main storyline of this volume. It was interesting to me that Kait felt the need to rule out Alice guarding a chained-up Luke. Forgetting Alice's desire to cut his throat, why would Kait believe that letting the non-powered human guard Luke would even be an option to the others?

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-11T08:44:57-07:00

i am also very leery of karl guarding, as we know his earlier stance on what he would do, if it came down to it.
however this storyline arc? if thats an appropriate metaphor even, is interesting nonetheless.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-11T09:32:13-07:00

So, is the Big Rule new? Someone stated it as "Stay out of their heads unless they've got a gun to your head." Sirkka deep-cleaning a person without their consent seems to be a pretty big violation, even if it was done for the right reasons.

It also looks to me like she's got a pretty big God-complex along with Luke and Mark (and Kait and probably others). At least they've got a pretty damn good reason for having that complex in the first place. She said she made it so her physical experiences never happened. It might be for what Sirkka thought was a good reason, but she's still applying her morality to the girl against her will (unless she got consent then wiped her mind of that, but Jack seemed to indicate otherwise). There are aspects of rooting through someone's mind that are similar to the rape in the first place. NOT as traumatic and horrible, but your mind is a place no one else is allowed to go. Sirkka stuck her fingers all over it after making a decision she had no right to make for another person.

I'm disgusted by three characters in as many episodes. But it's because they're complicated and intriguing, so that's good.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-11T09:39:07-07:00

Srikka's goddess complex is benign and healing. Does that make it right or give any moral endorsement to her actions? Not in abstract, no. But sometimes you do what you think is right and to the devil with high minded idealism.

Yeah, this episode has had my brain working overtime.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-11T09:58:29-07:00

Healing, yes. It could do some harm in the long run, but it was healing. It sure as hell isn't benign. Sirkka apparently didn't take the time to talk what she was about to do with the others, and if she did, she ignored KK's input. Making a decision based on what you think is right without considering the higher ethics behind your decision flies on spur of the moment actions. She had time to think this over and consider the implications. Either she didn't, she did and decided that it might be a bad idea and did it anyway, or she thought it over and decided that it was the right thing to do. Judging by her repeat of the procedure (even if the circumstances are different), I'd say she went with the last one. And that makes me scared of Sirkka for the exact reason I'm afraid of Luke.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-11T10:12:10-07:00

ah

The Goddess complex is benign, the healing (and can we consider memory erasure healing, even if the memories removed are ones of trauma?) is slightly different.

Luke's brand of ubermensch 'dominance' behavior is far grosser than the benign care administered by Srikka, but there is a similar disregard for mere mortals in both expressions of power. I'd be happier under her sway than under Lukes, but you are quite right in pointing out the power-play aspects being the same. Perhaps the scariest aspect of Srikkas behavior is that you would genuinely be happy. You'd never know if you'd wanted her comfort in the first place.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-11T10:52:57-07:00

By benign, do you mean gentle or self-contained/non-harmful? I'd agree that she has a gentle demeanor while she's going about it, and she obviously thinks she's being nurturing. That doesn't change the fact that her actions stem from a very dangerous assumption (that she knows best, that she has the right to make a decision for someone else, etc.) The fact that she is willing and thinks that it is right and good for her to override other people's free will is pretty sinister. She and Luke both have the Ubermensch thing going on, Luke's just a little more forward about it or aware of it. If Sirkka thought that about herself, something tells me she wouldn't like it very much.

But, yeah, I agree she's scary because she takes away your choice, and after she's done you're (probably, there might be an undo for the erasure) unable to even think about what you wanted.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-11T11:05:45-07:00

It's a dominance issue at heart, isn't it? Luke's dominance takes the overt and repugnant route. Srikka takes an almost polar opposite with healing and harems. Both constitute an unacceptable violation, but Srikka does what she does out of a want to care and nurture rather than a desire to own and discard. Neither sit well with me, on an abstract level. But on a base human level I know who I would want to do the Push on me.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-11T11:48:10-07:00

Perhaps I'm the odd one here, or it's because I'm male, but if something that horrific happened to me and my choices were A) remember it and be damaged for the rest of my life or B) have someone remove all physical and mental traces, and take care of punishing the perp as well... I'm going with A.

I've yet to meet the person who the experience was something they've gotten over or a force of change for good. Might have been nice if she gave her the choice, but we're talking about indefinites. Could she ask and then wipe the asking too? Does it get more dicey the more they have to erase? It's a line with them that's not been set, so it's bordering on mental masterbation with the same argument from the same two people over and over. There's a reason I mostly lurk :P

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-11T12:54:27-07:00

Hi people,
First post on this forum, have been reading for a long time 'tho.
Thoughts; Srikka, while helping the victim, may have been more concerned with protecting the freakangles, who'd want news of a rape by mind-fuck capable rapist getting around?.
Arkady's the one to watch, she has history with Luke from the time his girlfriend threw him out. Not even mentioning Karl and his "we get things done" speech.
Starting to feel bad for Luke now, things are stacked against him big time.
Great story and art since the first episode. The more you learn the more you want to know.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-11T13:08:40-07:00

@Gilgurth - The point is no one got a choice. Hypothesize about which you would choose if you want, but the second you start assuming your choice would be anyone else's you're reaching for the same criticism that Sirkka is getting.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-11T13:37:06-07:00

Another thing that disturbs me about the 'cleansing' is that the rapist and the 'cleanser' (at least) would still have full knowledge of the event, whilst denying that knowledge to the victim. That, to me, feels very wrong. Even if the rapist was cleansed as well, it'd be monstrous to have psychic overlords just pressing the reset button on anyone who went astray/stepped out of line.

The story is becoming rapidly more disturbing... keep it up!

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-11T17:12:11-07:00

> It's a dominance issue at heart, isn't it? Luke's dominance takes the overt and repugnant route. Srikka takes an almost polar opposite with healing and harems.

No, no!

Luke cares only about himself: and to the extent that he considers his victim's existence at all, he wants her unwilling service.

Whereas Srikka is compassionate, and cares the about the victim's feelings (and, presumably, their desires): and *that* is the motive for *her* behaviour. In this case her action is self-serving too (because it also avoids spreading the knowledge of Freakangel's special powers), but in previous cases it was in order to help the suffering victims.

You might want (I don't know why) to argue that the victims were entitled to their suffering and would want to keep it (which, I would doubt), but there's no way I see Srikka as dominating in the way that Luke is: rather, she's caring, loving, like 'maternal'.

Note (and I've been exposed to theories of child development, via pre-school teachers), a mothers and/or care-giver like Srikka isn't necessarily "dominating" their charges: I'd say instead that the 'harem' (for example) is an environment which Srikka created and maintains, in which her 'children' are able to make their *own* decisions, based on *their* feelings, learn their own things: self-development.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-11T17:17:43-07:00

> ... If something that horrific happened to me and my choices were A) remember it and be damaged for the rest of my life or B) have someone remove all physical and mental traces, and take care of punishing the perp as well... I'm going with A.

For example, "We need to remove your appendix: abdominal surgery. Would you like us to do that while you're concious? Or would you prefer General Anasthetic, so that you remember nothing?"

The answer is so obvious, IMO, that surgeons don't even bother to offer you the choice.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-11T17:22:21-07:00

> Starting to feel bad for Luke now, things are stacked against him big time.

Man, "now" is too late to *start* to feel bad for Luke! If he'd had friends, learned to socialize well, *before* he started his criminal trespasses ... that was the time to start feeling for him.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-11T17:29:06-07:00

'You might want (I don't know why) to argue that the victims were entitled to their suffering and would want to keep it (which, I would doubt),'

doubt all you like mate, it is not anyones choice but the victim's. That's the rub with ethics I'm afraid. You have to accept that people will live with things done to them or do things to themselves (I'm talking extreme BM types with the 'do to themselves')

I just don't think it is acceptable to edit other peoples memories without consent, even if you are erasing trauma. How dare you? What gives you the right?

Just because you can do it, that does not mean you should. In my honest opinion.

As I say, both are forms of control that are abhorrent, but we have the female benign in Srikka and the male malign in Luke. Not to polarise it along gender lines! I don't think that's what Warren intended, just my observation :)

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-11T17:53:18-07:00

> How dare you? What gives you the right?

I don't, have the ability. But (if "appeal to authority" is an argument) I believe that people who *do* have that ability are inclined to use it, *and* that *with* society's consent and approval: that a medic will anaesthetise a burn victim for example, and (in an emergency) without stopping for consent.

Furthermore: don't you find it kind of likely that, given Srikka's ability to read minds, she does have a bit of idea of what the victim wants? Although Srikka was speaking out loud and the victim wasn't, what we heard was presumably Srikka's half of a dialog, not just a monolog.

I don't think that what Srikka's doing is "control" at all: it's healing. If she's controlling anything it's the injury, not the person.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-11T18:01:46-07:00

For example, "We need to remove your appendix: abdominal surgery. Would you like us to do that while you're concious? Or would you prefer General Anasthetic, so that you remember nothing?"

Well, honestly, what Sirkka did was closer to "During your check-up we decided that you needed your appendix out to prevent infection, so we went ahead and removed it. That's why your bill for the check-up will end up being so high."

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-11T18:02:21-07:00

I live in a flat little village in South-East England. Please Warren make it mine so I can run an unofficial tour and make some pretty polly.
The dole que is calling out my name.

N.B. Slough, Crawley, Milton Keynes? Oh God, not Milton Keynes; I'd stop reading on principle.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-11T18:07:12-07:00

anaethetising physical hurt is a very different thing from messing with a mind! the brain may be just another organ but consciousness is something else entirely. We own our experiences, not owned by them. And I don't believe those with the ability to do what srikka does should be inclined to do it. Simply, it is another violation.

As for Srikka knowing what a victim wants by reading the mind, well come on. Thats another violation. Stay the fuck out of peoples heads. It's not fair to go delving. Either come out and offer the service as a gift or don't do it at all.

This is why I love Freak Angels btw. Morality minefield

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-11T18:10:56-07:00

(you can just breeze over this. I know there is a heated debate going on right now)

My final opinion for the week on the rape/mindrape thing with Sirkka:
Not cool with what she did at the rape camp. Fine with what she did to the girl here and now (it beats having to out their powers trying to explain why she had a blank spot in her short-term memory bank. She didn't know she was raped, there's no physical OR mental evidence of it, so she's not losing any traumatic experience or anything. Why ruin her day?).

My final word on the comic for the day:
AMAZING (and more words: Warren, Paul and Ariana are the greatest people in the whole wide world!)

And everyone, don't forget- every week, we're usually only seeing between 1 and 5 minutes of the FreakAngel day. Give it more time.

My final word on the heated and angry posts here:
Think about the CHICKENZ (and poopy torture chambers). Calm down or start a debate thread outside this one, please?

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-11T18:15:43-07:00

The attitude could also be called paternalism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paternalism says, "It is implied that the fatherly figure is wiser than and acts in the best interest of its protected figures."

There's no word "maternalism".

The fact that paternalism has been abusive sometimes isn't sufficient IMO to say that it's always (e.g. in Srikka's case) wrong.

Noblesse oblige. :-)

> You have to accept that people will live with things done to them

That's your language telling me what I have to accept. You might like to read Ursula Le Guin's Bryn Mawr Commencement Address (I certainly liked it).

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-11T18:41:40-07:00

it's matriarchy, although I agree it does not have a direct parallel in the same way paternalism does to patriarchy. But Paternalism does at least imply a level of care that Luke with his ubermensch attitude is totally not providing :)

However, this does not mean that a matriachal attitude (and it is one taken by srikka imo) is something fair, right, democratic.

I've enjoyed Le Guins work (shame on me that it's her kids books earthsea quartet that I know the best) So I'll peruse that link tomorrow. It's getting to 'oh god' o'clock here.

Now, I don't tell you what to accept with my language. I posit, pose and ask. If I was forcing you to accept my points by overt means then you'd have to agree with me. You haven't. Instead you've given me food for thought and something to read, you've challenged my opinion. For which I salute you!

Anyway, it is my bedtime. I shall return to this discussion tomorrow.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-11T19:48:08-07:00

> it's her kids books earthsea quartet that I know the best

As you enjoyed them, it might please you to read that are 7 book in the Earthsea canon now:

* The first three (A Wizard of Earthsea, The Tombs of Atuan, and The Furthest Shore)
* Two further novels (Tehanu and The Other Wind)
* A collection of short stories (Tales from Earthsea)
* A novella (Dragonfly)

Beyond the original three, they're no longer quite the same 'kids books': Tehanu for example is a young child who's beaten, burned and left for dead. They would heal her, but they haven't the power; they adopt her. They, incidentally, the later works, they feature important female characters, whereas the original three novels essentially didn't.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-11T20:09:10-07:00

I've just joined up moments ago, but I've been enjoying the lively discussions here for weeks.

I suppose what's finally drawn me out is the idea posited that rape victims would be some sort of drain on the society, too broken and too traumatized to function, therefore the 'Angels had a right to tamper with the minds of the victims of the rape camp. For that argument, might I suggest this: rape is not something that just happens during an apocalypse. It's impossible to know the exact statistics, because rape often goes unreported, but in our modern, non-apocalyptic world, rape is so common it's certain we all know someone who has been a victim. In 2005 in the US, 191,670 victims of rape or sexual assault reported. In 2006 in the UK, 85,000 women were reportedly raped. Yet our society has yet to crumble.

Who wouldn't want a rape wiped completely from their being? Well, who's to say? Just because one feels they'd want Sirkka's healing and can't imagine why anyone wouldn't, it doesn't mean there aren't people who'd choose differently.

As KK said, people have a right to their experiences. No one should take those experiences away without permission. Sirkka believes she knows better than the victims who've experienced these traumas. She doesn't. Just because she can heal does not give her the right force her healing on the rape victims. If I have cancer, I have a right to the treatment I choose. A doctor may know how to cure me, but that doesn't mean he can strap me down and inflict his cure on me. And if I were raped, I'd be horrified at the idea that someone stole my experience without my permission.

I believe Sirkka means well with what she does, but she's arrogant to assume she knows best. And bottom line is, the choice to heal the victims from the rape camp came from a place of guilt, and the choice to wipe Luke's victim was in part to protect the 'Angels. Her good intentions and desire to protect the 'Angels still doesn't make what she did the right thing.

I'm astonished at the moral complexity presented in the last few episodes. I love that Sirkka's actions aren't accepted by some of the other characters. Fantastic writing.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-11T20:51:00-07:00

"Who wouldn't want a rape wiped completely from their being? Well, who's to say?"

In the case of the rape camp survivor - she was offered the choice and chose to forget.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-11T20:51:52-07:00

I'm astonished at the moral complexity presented in the last few episodes. I love that Sirkka's actions aren't accepted by some of the other characters. Fantastic writing.

It is, isn't it? This is the reason Warren is my favorite writer working in comics. There are more questions than answers and he writes three-dimensional characters that one actually cares about. They're interesting, they're alive, they speak for themselves. Agree or disagree with them, one still cares about them and the larger world that he's created.

One thing I'd like to point out, that was brought up in this week's episode (by Jack) - the FreakAngels are 23 years old. For those who haven't yet reached that blessed age, that's when you THINK you know everything but it begins to dawn on you that you DON'T. 'Moral complexity' starts to seep into everything and you end up questioning pretty much everything. It's a time of great idealism and great folly, where you do things you look back on later with either shame, regret or relief that you survived it. The FreakAngels destroyed the world when they were 17 and KNEW THEY KNEW EVERYTHING (Fuck You, Mom & Dad!) and have spent the last seven years doing whatever they've been doing. We don't know how long they've been operating in Whitechapel but they ended up there, they didn't start there. They've been trying to do the best they can with what they have (and what they have is impressive) but like Caz has said before, they're Succeeding Themselves To Death. They've stabilized what was obviously a very bad situation, made a few enemies in the process and managed to curb the death rate and the crime rate but horror is never far away.

How old is Alice? She was a kid before the Big Splash, she remembers kid things like chips and the GPS in her dad's car. She's lived easily half her life in a world where food is not to be taken lightly or for granted. No phone, no light, no motor-cars, not a single luxury. Like Robinson Caruso*, it's primitive as can be.

Also, the way Warren teases out information makes this comic more addictive that crack. And I'm sure we'll get a sense of what they were like as kids and that might change a few people's minds about Luke, for one thing. Warren is such a good writer, we may all have sympathy for the swine before long. Even the reaction to Sirkka's mind-fuckery is telling. This whole thing could have been an exploitation-fest in the hands of a lesser author (*coughBradMeltzercough*) but people have taken up on the ethical issues inherent in telepathy and are discussing them in a civil manner. Again, agree, disagree - at least you HAVE an opinion. About something that, at this point, isn't even lines on paper, it's pixels on a screen.

* And yes, I know it's 'Crusoe' but that's not how the song goes.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-11T21:07:02-07:00

Does anyone else wonder what has happened to religion?
In lots of post-Apocolypse books I've read (one of the first and most famous being John Wyndham's 'The Chrysalids') religion plays a central role in restructuring of a society. Wouldn't have people, post these massive changes looked to religion for not just a reason for these events but also (on a more practical level) used the moral codes given to them through religion to decide on how to live a moral life? I'm not saying that people can only be moral through religion but that religion and religious structures are recognised as being very interested in this area and asked many questions about what a moral good is.
There's evidence that after a crisis a lot people turn to some sort of faith based religion to work out how they should act, and try to figure out what to do next. Wouldn't this be the case in FA London?

Does anyone else want to see this explored? I think it would give difficulties/richness to the current issues being explored.
Oh, and btw, I don't think the memories of rape should have been erased - people are who they are because of experiences they have come through - to take that away is to take away what they have crafted themselves as.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-11T21:11:44-07:00

In the case of the rape camp survivor - she was offered the choice and chose to forget.

I definitely didn't read it that way. It seemed like Jack described Sirkka pretty much taking the initiative and doing what we saw her do with Luke's victim.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-11T21:20:15-07:00

> As for Srikka knowing what a victim wants by reading the mind, well come on. Thats another violation. Stay the fuck out of peoples heads. It's not fair to go delving. Either come out and offer the service as a gift or don't do it at all.

Not fair ... because we're not all able to? Should we, then, all restrict ourselves to doing only what anyone/everyone else can do?

If people *could* read my mind: would it be fair of me to tell them that they shouldn't: that they should instead surpress their ability? Even if their reading my mind doesn't hurt me? Wouldn't that be like saying to somebody, "Stop looking at me!"? I mean, if they're able to look, if they can see, they're allowed to. You are allowed, even expected, to read people's emotions in their face ... it's only a very minor leap, then, to read their emotions in their brain; and if I am thinking things that I don't want people to know about, that's *my* problem, not theirs.

Just my opinion. I mean, it's up to each person to control their own behaviour to enough to avoid doing harm. As long as someone isn't doing harm I don't see an ethical reason to limit their abilities or their actions (even if they're reading minds).

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-11T21:31:48-07:00

Fan:

If people *could* read my mind: would it be fair of me to tell them that they shouldn't: that they should instead surpress their ability? Even if their reading my mind doesn't hurt me? Wouldn't that be like saying to somebody, "Stop looking at me!"? I mean, if they're able to look, if they can see, they're allowed to. You are allowed, even expected, to read people's emotions in their face ... it's only a very minor leap, then, to read their emotions in their brain; and if I am thinking things that I don't want people to know about, that's *my* problem, not theirs.

To me, that seems to ignore the simple truth that there are secrets/thoughts/feelings/what-have-you that all of us want to keep private, which we have a right to, and a natural expectation that we can have these thoughts and feelings without worrying about someone picking up on it. The 'Angels can read minds, just like a person can use their eyes to see, but I think it's just as reasonable to expect people to not go peaking into a person's brain without permission as it is to expect people not go peaking into a person's windows without permission. Technically, it can be possible for a peeping tom to have not done much harm getting his jollies off sneaking a peak, but it's still a gross invasion of privacy that (most) people would really rather do without.

Also, Judith:

Oh, and btw, I don't think the memories of rape should have been erased - people are who they are because of experiences they have come through - to take that away is to take away what they have crafted themselves as.

The pertinent fact here would be that the rape victim didn't choose that experience, becoming a victim of rape is clearly not "what they have crafted themselves as" but rather something forced on them. And it's undeniable that some experiences just plain break people, experiences without which people could have had a far better chance at being functional and healthy and happy human beings.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-11T21:51:58-07:00

> Oh, and btw, I don't think the memories of rape should have been erased - people are who they are because of experiences they have come through - to take that away is to take away what they have crafted themselves as.

Don't you find it unreasonably hard, to say that a person's suffering from trauma and after-effects is a state which the victim has "crafted themselves", from their experience? The trauma is *inflicted*: not self-created, not chosen, and they're better off without it.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-11T22:27:17-07:00

All sorts of experiences come from outside a person's control. Loved ones die. Spouses cheat. Debilitating illnesses strike our bodies. Accidents maim us. Some people are broken by these experiences. Some aren't. But all experience, whether crafted from within or without, shapes a person, and no one has a right to remove those experiences without permission.

Rape is a horrific ordeal. Most people would choose to be healed by Sirkka. But that still doesn't change the fact the SOME may not. And to those few, Sirkka's actions are a violation. It's not up to anyone but the person who lived the experience to decide if "they're better off without it." Some people don't want to be Eternal Sunshine'd.

There are plenty of people who've been raped after drinking too much or having been slipped a drug. Let's assume for at least a few of the victims, there is no memory, no bodily trauma, no STDs, no pregnancy. Yet the rape still happened, and women who've gone through such rapes still suffer, knowing what was done to their bodies. Sirkka may have healed these women and removed their memories, but she didn't change the fact that they've been raped. If Luke's victim one day finds out what happened to her, will the fact that she has no memory or physical remnants of the event be much comfort to her?

The horror of rape isn't just about what one remembers or the physical damage--it's the most personal violation of one's body, and just knowing one has been violated in such a way is traumatizing. Sirkka can't--despite her arrogance on the matter--make it so rape never happened.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-11T22:37:18-07:00

> To me that seems to ignore the simple truth that there are secrets/thoughts/feelings/what-have-you that all of us want to keep private, which we have a right to, and a natural expectation that we can have these thoughts and feelings without worrying about someone picking up on it

That's ordinary reality, yes ... and according to stories, for example John Wyndham's _Chrysalids_, or the archetypal villagers with torches and pitchforks, people might be scared of mind-readers, and angry with them ... "she's a witch: burn her!" "kill the giant!". But I don't think that's ethical (or 'fair'). It may not seem fair to you that someone else can see your thoughts ... but your telling them what to think and what not to think, what to see and what to avert their sight from, would be you trying to control *their* thoughts.

I'm not sure how much of a "right to privacy" people have. I think my 'privacy' is mostly my right to control my own senses/experience: for example to shut my door, in order to control my own environment. It's much less to do with me controlling other people's experience, even including their experience of me. It's more to do with private property, control and ownership, than secrecy.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-11T23:01:26-07:00

It may not seem fair to you that someone else can see your thoughts ... but your telling them what to think and what not to think, what to see and what to avert their sight from, would be you trying to control *their* thoughts.

Bit of a leap there, no? It's nothing at all to do with controlling anyone's thoughts, and all to do with actions. It's about telling people not to look, and reasonably expecting them to respect privacy. If a girl wearing a skirt complains at me trying to get a gander up it, I'm not going to tell her that she's trying to unfairly control my experience of her. That's how it works. Just because you CAN peak, whether it's up a skirt or into a mind, doesn't mean you should have perfect freedom to. And anyway, of course you don't have perfect freedom to. Peeping toms get arrested for a reason. Society constantly tells people what to see and what to avert their sight from. And rightfully so, quite often.

Feeling a bit drifty...

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-11T23:39:01-07:00

> There's evidence that after a crisis a lot people turn to some sort of faith based religion to work out how they should act, and try to figure out what to do next. Wouldn't this be the case in FA London?

What *are* people doing in FA London? There are looters, bandits, and footpads (the mudlarks), and the dying. What have we seen of what other people are doing, in Whitechapel?

* Some apparently-ordinary boyfriend/girlfriend action (e.g. Luke and his ex)
* People in the food-market, selling bread etc. (having presumably made it elsewhere)
* Several overalled people, helping in the water-distilling plant
* Plenty of "leisure society" action (i.e. the harem)
* There's a mother bringing up a child (remember, the child with the tummy-ache)
* They have organized (quite extensively) for self-defence (against the mud-larks)

So: that is what they *have* been acting on, and what they've figured out to do so far. Any idea what 'some sort of faith based religion' might add to that, in terms of further action and to-dos?

I think we've been told (and seen) that the FAs are in charge: so, the people already *have* a (received) civil organization, which is satisfactory at least in being much than their previous situation, and which is now defining the society's agenda.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-12T00:19:50-07:00

@JudithC - There's evidence that after a crisis a lot people turn to some sort of faith based religion to work out how they should act, and try to figure out what to do next. Wouldn't this be the case in FA London?

I seem to recall there was a thread about religion a while ago where it was pointed out (I believe by Warren himself, although I could be wrong) that the modern UK is pretty much a secular, post-religious society. Even to the point where former Prime Minister Tony Blair's strong Christian faith was covered up because it was thought it would harm his election prospects (try to imagine that happening in the US).

There are no doubt some religious people in Whitechapel, but they're probably a quiet minority.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-12T00:29:46-07:00

We haven't seen religion at all and I suspect a lot it has to do with the post-religious POV @Purple Wyrm notes. Also, keep in mind this is Warren Ellis' post-apocalyptic world. Warren makes no bones about finding religion somewhere between pointless and harmful. Not to say he wouldn't throw in a healthy, productive believer just to fuck with what idea but... I suspect that's not what he sees in the FA-styled future. (Unless Mark is out there somewhere styling himself as a 21st Century messiah. 'Cause...why not?)

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-12T00:32:29-07:00

"I definitely didn't read it that way. It seemed like Jack described Sirkka pretty much taking the initiative and doing what we saw her do with Luke's victim."

I think you're right.

I seem to have misread the bit starting: "Sirkka asked the question ..."

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-12T12:16:17-07:00

Remember, we've only seen a few hours of the FA lives throughout these comics. Each week is only a few moments long (shorter, if there are "meanwhile" panels). I don't think that's proper time to establish what religions, political views, beliefs and whatnot there are left.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-12T12:51:24-07:00

'Not fair ... because we're not all able to? Should we, then, all restrict ourselves to doing only what anyone/everyone else can do?'

Not fair, because it is a violation of someones psyche. Without consent.

Of course we shouldn't restrict ourselves to doing only what everyone can do, but that is a false look at actions. America can project military force across the globe in a manner that few other nation-states can. That doesn't give them the right to play god and constantly exercise that ability. In some cases the exercising of that ability is downright immoral.

do you see what I mean here?

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-12T14:05:20-07:00

> do you see what I mean here?

I don't understand what "violation of someones psyche" means.

If someone (even America) wants to see what's on the surface of Mars, or what's in a person's head, I don't see it as my business to tell them that's immoral. People can take photographs of me from orbitting sattelites, for all I care: read-only intelligence-gathering is being intelligent, not being violently coercive.

Intelligence-gathering may be frightening because intelligence *can* be misused: but *that* isn't enough to deduce that mere intelligence-gathering is immoral.

Even New Girl doesn't mind people coming into her fookin head when they're doing it only to talk with her.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-12T14:22:54-07:00

what srikka does is far from read only, isn't it?

Transmitting messages is not the same as looking in peoples heads. It's not the Push, it is non intrusive. Only Karl objects to it, and largely because he doesn't want to hear about other FA's tawdry sexploits (lol)

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-12T16:16:43-07:00

Hi all. Long time listener, first time caller (or something like that). Anyway, I have an argument regarding why Sirkka's actions were the best (or "least bad", as someone else put it) course of action to take. Forgive me if someone's put this argument forth already.

Anyway, my argument--that Whitechapel's overall safety and order mandated erasing the rape experience--is best in the form of an episode of "Sarcastic Alternative Universe Theatre":

"Hey Jane Doe, how's your day going?"

"Not so good, actually. One of those purple-eyed guys put me under a mind control spell and raped me."

"Golly, that's unfortunate. Do you think we should panic over the Freak Angels' previously unknown ability to turn us into robots and rise against them in a chaotic rebellion of blood, fear, and pointed sticks?"

"Oh, certainly not. I'm sure that this guy is just a bad apple and not representative of the Freak Angel entire population of twelve. Just because the world has ended and we're completely dependent on these mysterious folks for our continued survival, that's no reason to worry that they might one day use their magical powers for evil instead of good and turn us into their own personal fuck puppets, thereby making the rape farms of yore seem like happy-fun time in comparison."

"Hm, I suppose you're right."

Fin

I'm not saying this is a moral argument, just a practical one. Thoughts? Comments? Verbal abuse?

*edited 2 seconds later to make the italicized comment actually, um...italicized.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-12T16:46:59-07:00

hahahaha

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-12T16:48:22-07:00

I supposed they've considered (and decided against) telling people about their powers. They seem to be in charge, even without telling people. Very much in charge: they can introduce 100 new people in the land, without asking anyone else's permission.

But not very visibly in charge: little ceremony, no palace guards, no parliament ... it *looks* like an anarchy, but organized. I'm wondering why they're in charge; I'm guessing it's because of:

* Their military victory over whoever the previous tyrants were (a victory whose cause was presumably portrayed as being intelligence and luck etc. rather than magic; or maybe their oponents just all dropped dead of heart attacks, food poisoning, or a building collapsing, or just disappeared)

* Their subsequent organizing of beneficial civil projects, like the drinking water, and the doctor

* The fact that the group of them (all 12) are presumably better organized (not to mention vastly more powerful, if it ever comes to conflict) than any rival group.

* Their successfully and continuingly protecting people from external agressors

I think they're lucky to be living in such a well-organized anarchy or meritocracy. Perhaps it's only in a fictional world, however, that the non-FAs would have so little influence, so few contrary or ornery opinions; or maybe all the potential trouble-makers (even simply the self-important, self-interested, and suspicious people, the opinionated, critics and demagogs) were purged or, somehow, neutralized by the FAs.

Or maybe, instead of anarchy, that's what a *feudal* society looks like: powerful warriors, and peasants.

It seems that the non-FAs just don't matter much to, have little influence on, the story: except as bakers of bread, and people to be protected.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-12T16:57:23-07:00

Forgive me, but I don't think you understand what feudal society looked like. Well organised anarchy and meritocracy mentioned in the same sentence. You confuse me (not difficult, to be honest.)

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-12T17:18:29-07:00

I meant that most of the time the society looks to me like an anarchist's utopia: but maybe that's not the right way to see it, and instead of being an anarchy it's more like feudal.

> Well organised anarchy and meritocracy mentioned in the same sentence.

Anarchy: no king or boss, no parliament and no throne.

Meritocracy: people doing organized things (e.g. working in the water distillery) simply because that's a Good Idea.

> Forgive me, but I don't think you understand what feudal society looked like.

Some stereotypes of feudal society are ...

a) The local baron and his armoured squires riding out and bullying his own serfs, taking the droits de seigneur

b) The central king or duke calling on his vassals, to assemble an army

... but, instead, maybe the local lord was there to protect their little local people against agression from neighbours, as well as to administer any local justice: and, in this, the little people are happy to cooperate.

I was sort of expecting people to bicker over who has power (leadership) and resources (e.g. labour), but maybe since the FAs are so visibly and successfully defending the perimeter, it's that that's enough incentive for everyone else to help and not oppose them.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-12T17:27:52-07:00

You really don't get feudalism do you? The non wiki analysis of it as a societal structure?
argh. Your definition of meritocracy is way off as is your definition of anarchy.

Enough. Sodding merkins have twisted and turned terms till we have to define what we mean at every tur. Curse the fluidity of english.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-12T17:45:04-07:00

> You really don't get feudalism do you?

I was taught some European history at school, and my Dad's a professor of Ancient History, but I'm not, and I am naive about politics. Now that you mention it, maybe a better comparison is to the so-called Dark Ages (of which I know next to nothing); or, to a post-invasion or a collapse-of-empire transitional time.

FREAKANGELS Episode 0061

2009-07-12T17:46:44-07:00

THREAD IS ENDED.

PEOPLE ARE APPROACHING THE EDGE OF PERSONAL ATTACKS (AGAIN).