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  1.  (6483.1)
    I really don't get it. She's got a motherflippin harem, supposedly gathered by the power of her mind to keep her perpetually in "the Land of O", but he does this with one girl and they chain him in a swimming pool? I'm not saying he shouldn't be punished, but in the world of Freakangels, what's the difference? Why isn't she down there with him?
    I really just want to know. I love this story, but I don't understand this part of it.
  2.  (6483.2)
    If I were to hazard a guess (and I will) Sirkka only stimulates urges and desires already inherent in her paramours. Luke flat out raped a girl. It's like the difference between convincing someone to take up jogging for their health or setting dogs loose to chase them.
    • CommentAuthorDan Kelly
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2009
     (6483.3)
    I'm not sure that there has been any suggestion that Sirkka does anything to her harem, other than let them have a good time.

    There's plenty of people who'd quite happily join in Sirkka's libertine existence even if it weren't providing a safe and secure environment in the hell hole that is Freakangel's Whitechapel

    That's not to say that Luke won't suggest that she's not entirely innocent during the trial ;-)
    •  
      CommentAuthorJay Kay
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2009
     (6483.4)
    I think Dan's on the money--I don't see her forcing her harem members into "the land of O," whereas Luke's actions are, by definition, non-consentual.
  3.  (6483.5)
    She's got a motherflippin harem, supposedly gathered by the power of her mind to keep her perpetually in "the Land of O",

    Read back. How much of that is happening in your head?
    •  
      CommentAuthormister hex
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2009
     (6483.6)
    @ Warren - Good point.
  4.  (6483.7)
    ahhh, benign exercise of power means YOU ARE JUST AS BAD AS THE NAZIS

    ahhh

    take that, lefty moralists.
    •  
      CommentAuthorFauxhammer
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2009
     (6483.8)
    Sirkka "sweet-talks" you into doing what would come naturally. Luke gives you psychic roofies.
    •  
      CommentAuthormister hex
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2009
     (6483.9)
    None of the Freakangels' hands are clean. They destroyed the world, whether they wanted to or not. Each and every one of them is a mass murderer.

    S'why this story is so INTERESTING. Like crack. WORSE than crack. (Not that I've ever smoked crack.)
    •  
      CommentAuthoroldhat
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2009
     (6483.10)
    Come on now, hex. First step to recovery is admitting you have a problem.
  5.  (6483.11)
    I've smoked crack for the lulz and believe me Freak Angels is more addictive. Plus it only makes you vomit ever so often (like when the surrounding crews tried an assault and got owned. That was some graphic shit and I was on a hangover *enraged smilie*)
    •  
      CommentAuthormister hex
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2009
     (6483.12)
    @ Robin - Drunkard and Pothead? ChecKMATE, ( And I don't mean Mail-Order Bride.)
    Cut me a bump and I'm THERE. But I suck on a pop can for no man.*

    *Okay, I smoked crack ONCE, out of peer pressure. Didn't like it. I guess it's like Anal Sex. If you try it, AND you like it, then I guess You Like It.

    Me? I'll stick with Freakangels, Makes my bum hurt less, for one thing.
    • CommentAuthorarvandor
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2009
     (6483.13)
    Two major differences:

    1. There is no evidence that Sirrka is forcing anyone to sleep with her against their will, and strong evidence against it. Luke is clearly shown to be forcing his victim without giving any choie at all.

    2. Aside from that one mistake of - oops - flooding the world, Sirkka has harmed no one, and indeed helped them when she could. Luke (and Mark) use their powers for rape and slavery. While it may be true that, thanks the Sirkka's mindwipes, there may be no lasting damage, that is irrelevant. It is still an evil crime that caused great harm at he time.

    I see NOTHING in common between Sirrka and Luke (and Mark).
  6.  (6483.14)
    @arvandor: Your two statements of fact are right...but, y'know, the question that titles this thread is still a valid one. From what we've seen thus far Sirkka's mindset seems about the closest to Luke's of any of the Freakangels, the difference being a matter of degrees. They're both extremely self-centered and disinclined to do much for the Whitechapel community or their mates, though we have at least seen Sirkka helping with the new arrivals (and of course, she does care about Jack - but notice how often that's expressed as "MY Jack.") She's condescending where Luke's openly contemptuous, both to the other 'Angels and to the mundanes, to borrow the old B5 term for the non-telepathic; what interaction we've seen with her "harem" is nearly on the level of mistress and pets. (Or so it seems to me - there's a strong resonance with Ellis' version of Zealot in one of the last Stormwatch arcs that may be fuzzing my read a bit.)

    And as Jack and Alice discussed a couple of episodes back, Sirkka's mucking about in rape victims' heads - even for the best of reasons - is ethically questionable. Not as ethically black as using telepathic control to effect a rape, obviously...but Luke didn't cross that line for a long time, and he apparently once did much the same "rape care" work as Sirkka in the aftermath of Mark's mindfuckery. I don't see Sirkka as immediately being the creep that Luke has become, but she's at least a few steps further down the path he's trod than any of the other 'Angels.
    • CommentAuthorQuixotess
    • CommentTimeAug 1st 2009
     (6483.15)
    Don, I really like your analysis. Mark crossed a long time ago, we are seeing Luke crossing, and Sirkka as you say seems to be approaching it. It does not say good things about the state of being a freakangel.

    And I've not read Stormwatch and I get the same impression as you of Sirkka's relationship with the people in her harem.
  7.  (6483.16)
    What's the difference between a rapist and a dom? One is a rapist, and the other plays mind and sex games with willing partners. Sirkka may have a cult of personality, but she doesn't do it with Freakangel brain power.

    Plus it's worth noting that, while it looks like she's the queen bee from the outside, we haven't seen enough of the inner workings of the relationships among her group to know how true that is. Her entire goal of "reinvent the human relationship" breaks down if all she's got is a harem.
  8.  (6483.17)
    @james:

    What's the difference between a rapist and a dom? One is a rapist, and the other plays mind and sex games with willing partners. Sirkka may have a cult of personality, but she doesn't do it with Freakangel brain power.


    Consent. HUGE Difference.
  9.  (6483.18)
    I'll just throw in that (despite of course getting all the kinky fun a growing Freakangel girl needs) Sirkka could actually be doing long-term healing on the folk in her 'harem'. Sexual play, and especially submission, in a loving and safe environment, is one of the best ways to help heal post-traumatic stress, especially combat- or sexually-acquired. If that's what Sirkka's up to (and noting that it would be quite within her power to just zap such people better - and she hasn't, it seems), it's about as far from Mark's activities as possible.
    Not that it'll stop him making insinuations on the subject, I'm sure.

    And of course she could be running a low-level glamour with her fuckbuddies... maybe even 'for their own good' as well as hers. Only Warren Knows.
    •  
      CommentAuthorpinoles
    • CommentTimeAug 3rd 2009 edited
     (6483.19)
    Sir Don Hilliard:

    > They're both extremely self-centered and disinclined to do much for the Whitechapel community or their mates,

    Episode 0022 (specifically, page 3) shows us her harem is also a trained defensive unit. To me, that contradicts the "disinclined to help whitechapel" part, although it's admittedly not quite the sustained effort the others are putting into rebuilding the community in the beginning of book 3. And it also seems like someone as self-centered as Luke wouldn't have conceived of the experience-scrubbing for the rape cases. (Luke's version of help: E0022 again, page 4.)

    In fact, it almost seems to me like the prelude, the flood, and the aftermath sent Luke in one direction and Sirkka in another. I mean, *all* of the Freakangels have a pretty heavy weight on their minds, which causes them to jump fairly far in their own directions (seriously, when you can make wearing a tin foil hat seem normal, something's off).

    So in answer of the original question, no: I believe Luke's wiring is fundamentally different from everyone else's - that we've met, anyway.
    • CommentAuthorPooka
    • CommentTimeAug 4th 2009 edited
     (6483.20)
    I think Sirkka's only wrong doing was to wipe the victim's minds without asking them if that's what they wanted or not.
    Sure she was sparing them a bit of pain and trauma...but if I were raped (and while we're admitting personal thingies today, I have been), I would like the chance to decide if I wantedt o keep those memories or not. A stronger person than me might say yes, they would want to keep that kind of trauma, because it's the truth and it's part of them...
    Wait...wait...okay...while typing this I argued to myself that yes, she probably thinks so too...but they are trying to keep their powers a secret...and if the victim said no, that they wanted to keep their memories then Sirrka would be forced to mind wipe them a little anyway to erase the questioning...but...that's a smaller sin I believe...


    edit: also...as for her running a glamour over her devotees...I dunno...being in a post apocolyptic world where your only salvation is a beautiful woman, who only wants to take care of you and love you and protect you...well,it seems like an easy, comfortable life to me...I don't think she'd have to glamour anybody...