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    • CommentAuthor/
    • CommentTimeAug 4th 2009 edited
     (6483.21)
    <em>~ *redacted* ~ </em>
    • CommentAuthorSarahK
    • CommentTimeAug 4th 2009
     (6483.22)
    @Pooka

    and if the victim said no, that they wanted to keep their memories then Sirrka would be forced to mind wipe them a little anyway to erase the questioning...but...that's a smaller sin I believe...


    I started out wholeheartedly agreeing with this, but as I wrote more, I got more and more confused.

    It seems so much better to ASK.. and then if they say no, make the glowy eyes and say, "Right, forget I asked. I was just asking you if you had any other injuries." or something. Although there are problems with this, both in the "rape camp" situation and Luke's situation. In the former, Sirkka has to find a quick, effective way to convince them that she actually COULD wipe the memory -- and wouldn't you be a little skeptical, possibly even enraged that someone could tease you with the possibility at a time like that? You probably couldn't do it discreetly, which would mean having to tell everyone, and then do a mass mind wipe later.

    And in Luke's case, they can't let the girl keep her memories without also letting her in on the Freakangels secret. The choices are to let her keep her full memories, a la Alice, wipe her mind of the incident nearly completely, or redact the rape scenario to exclude Luke messing about in her brain (which would probably mean including false memories of a struggle, etc). If the Freakangels' secret must be kept (and apparently it must) Sirkka really had no choice but to wipe her mind. There's no way to let her keep her memory of her experience without also being in on the Freakangels' secret.

    Which makes me wonder. They let Alice keep HER memories -- why? What makes memories of Mark implanting "command lines" in her head and sending her off to murder people such a beneficial thing to remember? Why was Alice "let in"? Maybe it was because she was alone, while the girl Luke raped came from a community and had something to go back to. But they are all walking a pretty smudgy moral line here.

    I think keeping the Freakangels powers secret is going to become more and more difficult, especially if Luke is allowed to live. Because he is not going to stop what he's doing, and who's to say he won't be observed by someone in the community at some point? Hell, who's to say that someone didn't see already, and run away before anyone noticed? Sirkka and Caz were pretty busy with Luke, after all...

    Anyone else have thoughts on this? My brain is rambling on faster than I can form coherent sentences.
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      CommentAuthorSai
    • CommentTimeAug 4th 2009
     (6483.23)
    They let Alice keep HER memories -- why? What makes memories of Mark implanting "command lines" in her head and sending her off to murder people such a beneficial thing to remember? Why was Alice "let in"?


    Alice had already encountered Mark? She knew he had powers, therefore knew other people would have powers. She mentions in... Episode 5, page 5 that Mark gets inside people's heads.

    I mean they could have just wiped that memory I supposed and threw her into the community, but it was probably easier to just calm her down instead of re-writing her entire brain to give her reasons for why she was *in* the community (if they wiped her and let her live there...)

    With Alice, they didn't so much as change her memory, more remove what Mark had done. (apparently. As there are theories that other FAs have done some wonderous scheme to get her there and bring them all together.)

    I agree that the more they let the more "loose" FAs stay un-disciplined, like Luke, the more chance there is of people discovering them. But then again they probably have the power to wipe the entire town's memory if needs must?
    • CommentAuthorCathaidan
    • CommentTimeAug 4th 2009
     (6483.24)
    aravandor - That's not entirely correct. She's never seen hurting anyone from White Chapel. She does however man one of the huge steam guns in the defense of White Chapel.

    The other thing that people aren't really looking in to is how easy it is for Sirrka to build a harem. I mean, if I were hanging out in a post apocalyptic world and some hot chick, with purple hair and a bikini were to come up to me, offer me food, shelter, safety, etc, and all I had to do was join her harem, hell sign me up for that! Its not mind control if you're willing from the start.
  1.  (6483.25)
    Rape, at its core, is about power and dehumanization. Sexual gratification is a distant third.

    Luke uses his package to effect power over his rape victim because she's nothing but a hole for him to screw; it goes along well with his "master race" crap. Regular humans (especially women) are there to do what he wants them to do.

    Sirkka is busy trying to re-make the essential human relationship, and doesn't particularly demean her harem. She obviously cares for them. I haven't seen a single place where she exerts power over them in a nonconsensual way, as opposed to using it for their physical/sexual/interpersonal benefit in a consensual environment. I also haven't seen her take total control of one of her harem and zap his or her consciousness away while she rides them, as someone else has said, like a dirty, dirty pony.

    Sex is coercive, sure. A decent blowjob makes me willing to do just about anything. But it's nothing close to rape, thanks to power, consent, and consciousness.
    •  
      CommentAuthormister hex
    • CommentTimeAug 4th 2009
     (6483.26)
    IMO, ALL the Freakangels are a 'shower of cunts', as Garth Ennis might say.

    They destroyed the world. They're each mass murderers, many times over. In the Big Boys' Club with Mao, Stalin and Hitler. Which one's worse :Gacy or Dahmer? Hard to say, isn't it? We've seen every single Freakangel (except Mark) do HORRIBLE things (we all cheered when "all your future bone fractures belong to us" and they broke those dudes using only their mind-power!) and we've quibbled over torture and such-like things.

    "Luxury", he said, knowingly.

    Sirkka, I think, has taken in a LOT of rape victims (boys get raped too. Remember, Whitechapel was a bad place before the FA's realized it was defensible and decided to stay there for a bit) and shown these victims that sex can be good, too. "And while you're here, you'll eat well, you'll love well and you'll feel better everyday, until you're ready to leave here. I'll never kick you out but you can leave whenever you're ready." She's redefining human relationships. You might've been Whatever Before, but now you're You. Back in the day, Sirkka'd known as a procurer. Because women can't be pimps, right? (Why are pimps idolized? I really hate that. It bothers me.)

    Luke is a predator, choosing the slowest, the weakest (the girl he raped was on crutches, for chrissakes), the stupid (like Janine. Not her fault she hooked up with him but she wasn't the sharpest elevator in the buildingdrawer), the "scum", to use a word much loved by our fearless leader. (Who is Rightfully Idolized, by all cognoscenti.) On one level, I understand Luke and his "You Snooze, You Lose" policy. At least it's Honest Dishonesty.

    Miki is not a doctor and has no business practicing medicine. Jack is a pirate. Connor just sits back and writes it all down. "With Great Power ..." and all that, Connor. You fucking marshmallow. Don't you have a bigger, better job than that? Writing? That's not work.

    KK and Caz are alright but they're lazy. Passive. They KNOW they could do great things but they don't. They don't need Qualifications - they need Support! But it's like herding cats, honestly, getting people to help you ...

    Arkady is a drug addict and an alcoholic. And clearly unstable. (She almost frightened a man to death by predicting his death.)

    Kait is a vigilante. As is Kirk. And Karl. (I imagine it will come out during Luke's trial that Mark wasn't meant to be killed, just exiled and the two bald-headed chicken-fuckers (and one in a tin-foil hat, no less!) took it upon themselves to try to kill him, and fail, and only succeed in pissing him off? ! Betcha THAT'll go over well.

    And then there's Mark. And the charges against him are hearsay, at this point. We've never even seen him.

    "No one is good, no one in all the world is innocent."

    Betcha Alice has seen something similar to Luke's Crime. And she'll play a part in his trial.
    • CommentAuthorFan
    • CommentTimeAug 4th 2009
     (6483.27)
    > we all cheered when "all your future bone fractures belong to us"

    No. Well I didn't.

    Anyway, also it was self-defense, and revenge, and war, which some if not most people would say justifies it. As for destroying the world: I think they've regretted it since, are trying to learn from their mistakes, won't do it again, and are trying to make amends; so I think it's time to forgive them for that crime. I think they're much more powerful than other kids, not much 'worse'.

    > Miki is not a doctor and has no business practicing medicine.

    She is better than no doctor.

    > Jack is a pirate.

    A scavenger: robbing no-one.

    > Kait is a vigilante

    I think she's official: we decided when we got here what jobs we would do.

    > And then there's Mark. And the charges against him are hearsay, at this point. We've never even seen him.

    They believe he's guilty, and who is to doubt them.

    > No one is good, no one in all the world is innocent

    Yeah, they're human.

    I think some of them are "cunts", maybe; not all.
  2.  (6483.28)
    >I think she's official: we decided when we got here what jobs we would do.

    When we first meet her, Kait's described as the unofficial constable of Whitechapel. Think it was KK talking to Alice, but not sure off the top of my head. But I agree that, in all practicality, they accept her as the authority to deal with such matters so I'm not sure where I fall in terms of her being official/unofficial.
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      CommentAuthordreujnk
    • CommentTimeAug 5th 2009
     (6483.29)
    The way I understood it, Kait is only an "unofficial constable" in that she operates behind the scenes. Not because she's acting as a vigilante.
  3.  (6483.30)
    @Quixotess: Ta, belatedly. Again, not claiming that Sirkka is as bad as Luke - but I think she's got an uncomfortable lot in common with him.

    @pinoles: From the dialogue in that episode, it doesn't sound like Sirkka had much to do with training her boys and girls into a defensive unit ("Clear it for action, children, just like those tedious people made you practice.") Having the gun emplacement atop her house makes very good strategic sense, as we saw; ditto having her group trained to man it, since they're by far the closest - but I have to wonder if she'd be taking as active a role in the defense if Jack hadn't been attacked. (This was also the sequence that pointed up [to me] the expression of her love for Jack as, well, kinda largely about HER.)

    Luke in the same episode? Yeah, no help whatsoever...but bear in mind that, in addition to being self-centered by nature, in the short time preceding that scene he's been offhandedly dissed by KK, punched in the mouth and kicked in the nadgers by Kurt, rejected (again) by his ex and treated to a brief taste of an OD (and the spectre of his own death) by Arkady. Every bit of which he brought on himself, mind you, but not going to put him in a mood to do anything for anyone.

    And the other "tell" I missed mentioning the first time around: Kurt's line in the blowup, "You suck love out of these people's minds like a fucking flea!" Again, more extreme than what Sirkka seems to be doing (and I don't think she's using the Package to do it), but not very dissimilar; they both want lots of love and admiration, but Sirkka apparently attracts it while Luke demands it - or just takes it.

    @atavistian/dreujnk: I took it as "unofficial" in the sense that there's no governing body of Whitechapel that appointed Kait as constable, but the 'Angels and the citizens know she's the closest thing to a proper copper they've got, and accept her as such. (And was that supposed to be her giving Arkady the stinkeye in the market early on, or just someone who happened to look like her?)
    • CommentAuthorcas9574
    • CommentTimeAug 6th 2009
     (6483.31)
    You can't have a vigilante in the absence of proper authority.

    Every voodoo priest, hedge doctor, shaman, medicine man, and alternative practitioner would balk at the thought that Miki has no right to help people when she's obviously the most capable person in the room.

    If Jack is a Pirate he's at least a Privateer sailing the ruined canals of sunken England for Queen and Country so to speak.
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      CommentAuthorsenacherib
    • CommentTimeAug 12th 2009
     (6483.32)
    The reason I am so addicted to Freakangels is that, despite their awesome powers, they are ordinary humans; flawed, confused, making choices that they subsequently regret, neither entirely good or entirely bad. Even Luke was not always the shit he is now. That's why these characters are so credible, so "believable".

    senacherib
    • CommentAuthorKosmopolit
    • CommentTimeAug 12th 2009
     (6483.33)
    "Episode 0022 (specifically, page 3) shows us her harem is also a trained defensive unit. To me, that contradicts the "disinclined to help whitechapel" part, although it's admittedly not quite the sustained effort the others are putting into rebuilding the community in the beginning of book 3."

    Apart from the harem do we ever see the residents of Whitechapel doing much of anything "to help Whitechapel"?

    Sirkka may spend most of her time lying around but her followers/family/whatever seem to be the only large cohesive group in Whitechapel working for the good of the community.

    Now maybe that's just because the story's on;y covered a few days and the also that the actual functioning of Whitechapel is peripheral to the story but I don't recall anybody else manning the guns or cleaning up after the battle. THen too that might just be my lousy memory.
    • CommentAuthorFan
    • CommentTimeAug 12th 2009
     (6483.34)
    > Apart from the harem do we ever see the residents of Whitechapel doing much of anything "to help Whitechapel"?

    Here and here, and here, and the last panel of here, and the third panel of here.