Vanilla is a product of Lussumo:Documentation and Support.
1 to 20 of 30
Warren/Ariana - feel free to shut this down if you think it's inappropriate.I'm spinning this off from the Presidency thread because I'd hate to see that thread closed or totally derailed by a tangential debate.Can I ask people who want to debate the issue of the ethics of torture to do so here and not in the Presidency thread.And now, what I almost posted in the Presidency thread:"The vast majority of research says torture, as portrayed on 24, does not work. People do not reveal critical facts, they instead spout anything you might want to hear, with little regard for relevancy or truth, to stop the pain. Even when claims are produced it has worked, evidence tends to implicate other factors as likely the real source of information. This position tend to be confirmed by ex military intelligence and even officers currently in the US military have asked the producers of 24 to change how the impact and results of torture are portrayed in their fictional world. "(Edited to clarify that the above paragraph is quoted from JTraub on the Presidency thread. http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=438&page=5#Item_18)You forgot to mention that the idea that "hundreds of thousands" of lives could be at stake is simply ludicrous.The Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs killed around 100,000 people each. So what's being suggested here is a terrosit group capable of building or buying, say, 4 or 5 nukes and smuggling them into the US.Nuclear weapons have been around for 60 years at this point, in the tens of thousands for most of that period, exactly zero of them have been used.So we have to assume some incredibly competent fantastically well-resourced terrorist organisation - which then permits one guy with all the critical information about the attacks to be captured. It is ridiculous - it's a fantasy.Israel used to torture people. They quit for a number of reasons, amongst them international and domestic pressure and court cases from innocent people who'd been arrested by accident and tortured.But the key factor was that Shin Bet concluded that terror didn't work and generally did more harm than good. Torture a suspect in the ticking-bomb scenario and if you have the wrong guy you're liking to get a false confession which wastes time and guarantees the attack will in fact occur.Here's a hypothetical for the torture advocates:Take your typical “ticking bomb” hypothesis. But instead of the terrorist you have their five year old daughter. Do you torture her to find out where her father is? Do you use the threat or fact of torture to try and force her father to surrender? If not ,why not? Remember – hundreds of thousands or lives (supposedly) on the line. It’s only one child, right?Hell, we know where Bin Laden’s family lives. Let’s kidnap them and torture them to death on television one per day until he surrenders.