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      CommentAuthorrickiep00h
    • CommentTimeFeb 19th 2010
     (7759.21)
    No, I think the conservative take on this will be that he was a tragic American driven mad by Obama's policies.
    He won't be called a terrorist because he's a white male who dislikes taxes and big government.
    The interesting bit is that he wasn't blasting big government, he was blasting inefficient, cronyist, good-ole-boys' club government. One of his primary complaints was about health care.

    The tax angle certainly gives it a lean to the right, but over all, it was pretty centrist. And selfish. Basically saying "I don't want to pay taxes but I want all the benefits that come from taxes," like three-quarters (totally made-up statistic) of Americans do. The only nuts thing about it is that he felt he needed to hurt innocent people (remember, there were more than just IRS offices in that building) to make his point. In seven or eight pages, I saw nothing in there that screamed out an injustice so bad that attacking other people was justified.
    So the guy who owned his own private airplane had money problems... ermm...
    And then there's this.
    • CommentAuthorRenThing
    • CommentTimeFeb 19th 2010 edited
     (7759.22)
    @rickiep00h

    The only nuts thing about it is that he felt he needed to hurt innocent people (remember, there were more than just IRS offices in that building) to make his point.

    Don't forget that he lit his house on fire with his wife and child in it.

    Fucking shit head.

    Honestly, I have no fucking sympathy for the guy. My wife and I, who don't own a house or our own private plane, and owe just about as much as him (the figures I've seen is $12k) due to errors she made a few years ago on her taxes when she was doing them herself. And you know what, she's the one who made the mistakes, she's the one who filed, and she's the one taking responsibility for the money she owes. I know other people who, at times, have been in similar or worse situations due to tax or credit card debit and none of them felt the need to harm themselves or anyone else. Guy was a selfish asshole and it's lucky that no one was killed (at least I don't think any of the injured have died from yesterday). He's not an unfortunate victim, he's just a selfish bastard.
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      CommentAuthorcosta_k
    • CommentTimeFeb 19th 2010
     (7759.23)
    @ rickiep00h -

    No, that sounds like a pretty accurate statistic.
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      CommentAuthorrickiep00h
    • CommentTimeFeb 19th 2010
     (7759.24)
    Don't forget that he lit his house on fire with his wife and child in it.
    I did. Thanks for reminding me.

    What a dick this guy was.
  1.  (7759.25)
    Spoilt twat who threw his toys out his pram when he got scolded for his bad behaviour.

    Thousands would necessarily have an impact. Even one person's suicide can have an impact, if it's the right person (see: Thich Quang Duc).


    Yeah if it wasn't for him Vietnam might have ended up an absolute mess during the 60's and 70's.
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      CommentAuthorJeff Owens
    • CommentTimeFeb 19th 2010
     (7759.26)
    @RenThing, @rickiep00h

    Don't forget that he lit his house on fire with his wife and child in it.


    According to an eyewitness, no, he didn't. Here's a quote from the article linked at the top of this thread.

    Elbert Hutchins, who lives one house away, said the house caught fire about 9:15 a.m. He said a woman and her teenage daughter drove up to the house before firefighters arrived.

    "They both were very, very distraught," said Hutchins, a retiree who said he didn't know the family well. "'That's our house!' they cried. `That's our house!'"


    Let's try to avoid misinformation, here.

    Also, the other person who was killed was a 67-year-old revenue office manager for the IRS, whose wife also worked at the IRS office.

    Again, I am, in no way, happy when people die. I am a pacifist, and I happen to disagree with Joe Stack about violence. I think any violent revolution will result in the same violence however many years down the road. But I struggle to consider a 67-year-old IRS office manager innocent, as I do a large percentage of the oblivious population.

    Please, don't eat me.
    • CommentAuthorRenThing
    • CommentTimeFeb 19th 2010
     (7759.27)
    @Jeff Owens

    Thank you for the correction, my news source was obviously wrong (news, wrong? The devil you say!)

    But I struggle to consider a 67-year-old IRS office manager innocent, as I do a large percentage of the oblivious population.

    I would argue that is only because the individual works for the IRS. If you learned that he was a 67-year old janitor who happened to be working cleaning windows just as that asshole flew through them instead of being employed by the IRS, would you think him more innocent because of his occupation? If that is true, I really think you need to consider why that is the case.

    Regardless of if he was a window-washer, baker, IRS agent in charge of auditing little old lady's taxes, a repoman, or a personal injury attorney, it is not ok for someone else to kill them or take any action that causes them harm or death because that person has a narcissistic selfish personality and a beef with the government.

    Please, don't eat me.

    I'm pretty sure that's grounds for getting eeled and as I have yet to get eeled in the years I've been here, I think I'll avoid masticating you and leave us both happier for it.
    • CommentAuthorRyan C
    • CommentTimeFeb 19th 2010
     (7759.28)
    This may be the wrong thread for this but after seeing this (and 100 other things in the "news") I can't help but think, why now? American government hasn't cared about its people for decades. I also can't believe how up in arms we are about Obama spending but Bush sitting in the desert on a lie was ok?

    When can we get off planet and start a new society? Everything here seems rotten.
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      CommentAuthorJay Kay
    • CommentTimeFeb 19th 2010
     (7759.29)
    Let me just say as someone who probably leans more to the right then most of the people that what this guy did is totally not okay. Just sayin'.
  2.  (7759.30)
    The credentials of this man's self-assigned persecuted status may be extremely questionable -- really, who owns a plane? -- but the statement, made in this thread, that 100s of millions of people 'navigate' the tax code just fine, and if you got a problem with it you are a baby, is naive, and validates Stack's entire point. (For just a brief confirmation of the corporate-congress collusion and intentional punishment of ICs at the core of Stacks' hated 1706 clause in particular, see here.)

    Most people in this country stay out of tax trouble by working for corporations -- really, how does it make sense for the laws to be so complex and yet carry penalties that affect people? Do I have to take a class to learn how to not murder people? Stack sounded like an asshole, but even an IC intent on paying their fare share has to worry about breaking the law for not paying their fare share the right way. I myself haven't claimed my tax returns in 7 years, that's thousands of dollars of free money for the government, but because I've been paid $4000 as an IC in that time (little of it profit) I can probably expect a $10000 fine in my future.The complexity itself favors larger institutions that can afford accounting staff, but the fees apply to individuals just as strongly (and then the larger institutions turn around and write the rules only they know how to obey, but don't worry about that). it is for that same reason that most (well, a dwindling, unsustainable majority) of people are ok for health care. And this fact is why there is no outrage, and precious little awareness, of the truth that all laws in this country are NNARP -- need not apply to rich people.

    But for the non-elite, if you aren't owned by a corporation, the laws in this country are designed to fuck you. Most of these rules were written by post-Reagan Democrats, who think they can gain way in the class war by feeding corporations more leverage in every market, in return for expanding the portion of the populace eligible for the small protections afforded by corporate ownership -- but the political necessity of these compromises were driven by modern conservative ideas). It's true for both ends of an American citizen's role in the market, working and spending. If you don't have a savings account and a credit card, the financial services industry devours you like piranhas. And government endorses this -- it's not just that legislation to protect you is stalled and dying in Congress as we speak -- for the simple reason that most people aren't being financially destroyed by these companies, so what does it matter that only the most vulnerable millions are -- it's that you really do end up being an outlaw before long just by trying to survive. For an example, take car ownership: if you can't get credit for a dealership car (and for a lot of people, dealership-credit is just a tool to drain them of whatever financial security they currently have, so that after a few years they won't be able to get credit) you buy a classifieds car (pay taxes even though you're buying it from an individual) and when after a few months it can't meet Inspection even though it still runs and you can't afford to fix it yet, you get a ticket, and when you can't pay the ticket, you get pulled over again and your license is taken away. And if you have the audacity to continue trying to get to work and the grocery store every day after that, you get arrested.

    Meanwhile, the former vice president can admit to illegally implementing torture policies on TV and it doesn't mean a fucking thing.

    That is America.

    Stack should have crashed into a building that was closed and unoccupied, and I haven't heard a clear answer on the house thing, and yes he sounds like a big old dick any way you slice it, but he had a good message. And it really is a wonder more people in this country don't take this route on a daily basis (I'm not talking about freepers, those r-tards are long past the point of understanding that corporations are the ones manipulating and preying upon them, and just want daddy in the pickup truck to wave at the camera and assure them they're still better than black people.)

    For me, if I didn't have art, I wouldn't think twice about this kind of act. Or, I would have already moved out of the country -- to somewhere there's a choice between preying on other people, ignorantly living a corporate-approved life, or getting fucked over and thrown in jail just for not saying "thank you sir" enough times. I guess that for the rest of off-the-rolls, off-Elm-street America, tribalism, hatred, and sports are their art, because I don't know what the fuck else keeps them going.
    • CommentAuthorRenThing
    • CommentTimeFeb 19th 2010
     (7759.31)
    Or, you know, you could just hire an accountant whose job it is to do taxes.

    I have done my taxes through TurboTax and H&R Block for the last fifteen years and I haven't gotten in trouble. Millions of Americans do the same. Stack's complaints are bullshit.
    • CommentAuthoratavistian
    • CommentTimeFeb 19th 2010
     (7759.32)
    ^What Ren said.
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      CommentAuthorJeff Owens
    • CommentTimeFeb 19th 2010 edited
     (7759.33)
    @all - Taking life is, undoubtedly, where I draw the line on pretty much everything. I have a very high regard for life of any kind, and it upsets me that Joe Stack died, and that he killed someone, and injured others, while doing so. (I'm more upset by the other man's death, as Joe Stack seems to have wanted to die.)

    @RenThing, @atavistian - That being said, not all of his complaints could be solved through use of H&R Block and TurboTax (as great of a website as that is). I don't think it's complete bullshit to complain that our politicians don't care about us, I don't think it's complete bullshit to complain that the election process is a bit of a joke, and I don't think it's complete bullshit to complain that the justice system seems to be set up to protect the rich, and their friends, these days.

    I wish that H&R Block had a way to fix our faulty election system, or that TurboTax had a "Crush Corrupt Government" button you could click while filing your Federal return, but these things are, unfortunately, not the case.

    A boy can dream!
    • CommentAuthorMarty Nozz
    • CommentTimeFeb 19th 2010
     (7759.34)
    The guy was an asshole and nuts. Anyone trying to spin this as the fault of the Left or the Right needs to stop, take a breath, and remember what this guy did and not give any validity whatsoever to anything in his "manifesto". It does not matter if you agree with some of the stuff in there. This man deserves no validation or credit for his views. The damage and loss are a real shame. The man responsible is gone. It doesn't matter if he had anything resembling a point. Find something else coming from someone who didn't attempt to kill a bunch of people to give credit to.

    And yes, I did blog about this incident, but it was about the really piss poor reporting CNN did on the matter.
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      CommentAuthorstsparky
    • CommentTimeFeb 19th 2010
     (7759.35)
    He was too stupid to be a tax cheat. He killed one innocent, and likely two more. If I believed in Hell - I'd wish him there. I remember when I was a T-man in 1990, a total asswipe nutjob drove an improvised bomb up to our office. I think they call it "suicide by police" ...

    I feel sorry for the people he hurt. And Obama needs to call this jerk a terrorist to tar the nuttier fringes of the Teabaggers with the same brush. IMO.
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      CommentAuthorJeff Owens
    • CommentTimeFeb 19th 2010 edited
     (7759.36)
    I certainly feel sorry for the people he hurt/killed and their families. I can't disagree that the guy probably should be labeled a terrorist, but that's always been a pretty nebulous term, so I'm really not too concerned with what the government and media label him. What he did was fucked up and wrong, and that will speak for itself well enough, no matter what he is labeled. Like BrianMowrey said, he probably should have flown into an unoccupied building. But he didn't. And it was definitely fucked up.

    I posted that to make sure no one thinks I'm advocating that sort of action, and if I said anything that indicated I was, then I apologize, and I probably shouldn't have said it.

    I do think, however, that whether or not this man deserves validation or credit for his views, he said some things that provoke thought, and I think it would be a shame for us not to think about how wacky/kind of shitty of a time we are living in, if nothing else, from this occurrence.
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      CommentAuthortim12s
    • CommentTimeFeb 19th 2010
     (7759.37)
    Now why couldn't a CREATIVE genius simply hack the IRS and just delete the files of everyone whose last names begin with F, U, C, K, T, H, E, I, R, S.

    Although the Stainless Steel Rat did that in the 70's.
  3.  (7759.38)
    A man flew a plane into a building. This isn't the end of The Running Man. He killed people.

    There's no moral debate here.
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      CommentAuthorstsparky
    • CommentTimeFeb 19th 2010
     (7759.39)
    Um, this pampered clown had a plane, and he could not figure a way for it to earn money for him. And instead of working with the IRS, which has a whole department of caring human beings called Taxpayer Services who help gigantic screw ups in truly bad situations, he decides to kill people. There's nothing original or valid or true we can learn from the idiot. Screw him.
    • CommentAuthoratavistian
    • CommentTimeFeb 19th 2010 edited
     (7759.40)
    ^what stsparky said.

    Honestly: guy knowingly tried to circumvent tax law, got caught, blamed everyone but himself.

    Guy "missed a deadline" and again, blamed everyone but himself.

    Take lessons from more deserving people. There are people who have been screwed out there, no doubt. But contemplating this guy's bullshit only serves to validate his murderous act whether you're comfortable admitting it or not.