Whitechapel - The Internet is Making You A Slave? 2013-06-19T03:42:32-07:00 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/ Lussumo Vanilla & Feed Publisher The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=237348#Comment_237348 2010-05-09T14:02:12-07:00 2013-06-19T03:42:32-07:00 MG http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=8659 "You're coming of age in a 24/7 media environment that bombards us with all kinds of content and exposes us to all kinds of arguments, some of which don't always rank all that high on the truth ... "You're coming of age in a 24/7 media environment that bombards us with all kinds of content and exposes us to all kinds of arguments, some of which don't always rank all that high on the truth meter," Obama said at Hampton University, Virginia.

"With iPods and iPads and Xboxes and PlayStations, -- none of which I know how to work -- information becomes a distraction, a diversion, a form of entertainment, rather than a tool of empowerment, rather than the means of emancipation," Obama said.

Two things:
First, this is the same President who fought hard to keep his Blackberry so the "I don't know how this razzum-frazzum thing" works argument is kind of disingenuous. The President of the United States being proud of technological ignorance doesn't sit well with me. Tech isn't magic.

Second, the word emancipation. That's a powerful word from the first Black President. Even in some graduation address, it's about as loaded a word as you get. The notion that information tech, as it's being used, is leading away from empowerment and emancipation, that's disturbing.

I work with young adults. They're deeply connected to technology, but they're still brilliant and curious and skeptical. Actually, I think they're MORE skeptical, wanting to check things out before trusting a first source. Anecdotal evidence, but still.

Viewing technology as a noisy distraction reduces the power of that technology. All those gadgets are amazing tools for learning, information distribution and collaboration.]]> The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=237353#Comment_237353 2010-05-09T14:16:07-07:00 2013-06-19T03:42:32-07:00 Flabyo http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1306 Since when have videogames had anything to do with information and the distraction or diversion thereof? Pandering of the worst kind that is, always annoys me when we're dragged out, yet again, as ...
Only one more generation to go and then the people getting into power will have lived in a world where videogames have always existed. Of course, by then there'll be something else to pick on.]]> The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=237355#Comment_237355 2010-05-09T14:26:34-07:00 2010-05-09T14:33:35-07:00 James Cunningham http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2925 Entertainment is something you watch. It's a story like a soap opera. What Obama is railing against is News as something you see, rather than something you use to get involved in the world. What ...
There was also a good amount of follow-up on how a 24/7 information environment gets filled with the stupidest crap, much of it completely untrue. Bullshit designed to sell a narrative rather than inform. This isn't a viewpoint I have a problem with.

As for the use of the word "emancipation", that was one of the better bits in there. From the article I first read about this-

Hampton University is a historically black college, and Obama noted the huge disparity in educational achievement between African Americans and other racial groups in the United States and the world.

Judging by the speech setting, I'd say that word was very carefully chosen.]]> The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=237359#Comment_237359 2010-05-09T14:54:07-07:00 2013-06-19T03:42:32-07:00 MG http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=8659 @Flabyo: I'd argue that Xbox live and (to a lesser and broken extent) Playstation Home are information hubs. They're a big part of how millions of users get their content. It's the broadside ...
I'd argue that Xbox live and (to a lesser and broken extent) Playstation Home are information hubs. They're a big part of how millions of users get their content.

It's the broadside attack on "gadgets" that gets to me. College students use iPods to read e-books, listen to lectures as well as music and gaming. Using technology as a teaching tool is something smart educators have been embracing for ages.

What really grinds my gears about this is him saying "I don't know how these things work" and then making them out to be villains. That's profoundly ignorant.]]> The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=237364#Comment_237364 2010-05-09T15:42:57-07:00 2010-05-09T15:44:01-07:00 Alan Tyson http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1299 After watching the speech the segment of concern starts at about 7:50 I think the "I don't know how these things work" line had little to do with demonizing electronic media. Obama is ...
the segment of concern starts at about 7:50

I think the "I don't know how these things work" line had little to do with demonizing electronic media. Obama is pretty well known for his self-deprecating humor, both in his speeches and his books, and I think this was a small joke at his own expense, something maybe to take the edge off a pretty tough speech (commencement speeches always are). It got a few polite chuckles, and I think that's all it was meant to do.]]> The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=237365#Comment_237365 2010-05-09T15:48:14-07:00 2013-06-19T03:42:32-07:00 SteadyUP http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5302 Also, being experienced with video games isn't the same thing as using a Blackberry, and the iPad just came out. The only thing that would be inexcusable, if true, is the iPod. And I certainly don't ... The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=237377#Comment_237377 2010-05-09T17:05:12-07:00 2013-06-19T03:42:32-07:00 MG http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=8659 @Steadyup: Then why is he lumping all these devices together to begin with? Outside of simple rhetorical convenience, it's a cheap broadside. It carries a generational stigma really "Oh ...
Then why is he lumping all these devices together to begin with? Outside of simple rhetorical convenience, it's a cheap broadside.

It carries a generational stigma really "Oh you kids, with your Xboxing and yer nintendoting, you're ruining your brains". That sounds patently ridiculous when you consider how much of our economy is tied into application development, how many small and mid-sized businesses have been built around things like Xbox Live and the App store. Hell, musicians, comic book creators, writers all are looking to these devices as the future of delivering their work.]]> The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=237380#Comment_237380 2010-05-09T17:42:30-07:00 2013-06-19T03:42:32-07:00 William George http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=7366 Viewing technology as a noisy distraction reduces the power of that technology. I find it very telling how any remotely negative view of that "entertainment" use of technology makes some ... Viewing technology as a noisy distraction reduces the power of that technology.

I find it very telling how any remotely negative view of that "entertainment" use of technology makes some people very, very angry.Like you're insulting their religion.

Right, Roger Ebert?

If something like Obama's quote is pissing someone off, they should step back and re-examine the role these toys have in their lives.]]> The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=237386#Comment_237386 2010-05-09T18:13:24-07:00 2013-06-19T03:42:32-07:00 MG http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=8659 @William George: Well, you cut my statement in half, which pretty much addresses what you're talking about. Again, these devices aren't just about entertainment. That's dismissive. There are ...
Well, you cut my statement in half, which pretty much addresses what you're talking about.

Again, these devices aren't just about entertainment. That's dismissive. There are applications that help juvenile diabetics track their glucose, create interactive reading experiences for children and provide a pretty endless array of information on any subject you can imagine.

Neil Gaiman made the point recently about how these devices are going to drive more people to e-books for a very simple, and overlooked, reason; scalable text. Any librarian will tell you that large type editions often out-strip their regular sized counterparts. Aging population in the US+ebook scalability=game change.

Banging on about the evils of games and electronics is silly for a world leader.]]> The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=237388#Comment_237388 2010-05-09T18:23:13-07:00 2010-05-09T18:25:35-07:00 James Cunningham http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2925 The only interaction reading needs is turning the page. :) More seriously, the XBox, PS3, and Wii are only about entertainment. They're specifically and exclusively entertainment devices. The ...
More seriously, the XBox, PS3, and Wii are only about entertainment. They're specifically and exclusively entertainment devices. The problem with that single line in a much longer speech is that those devices have nothing to do with the broader points being made. Mentioning them just muddies the waters.]]> The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=237390#Comment_237390 2010-05-09T18:43:26-07:00 2013-06-19T03:42:32-07:00 oogliemooglie http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=7645 I think Obama has a point. We are bombarded with information during nearly every waking hour, and the number of sources that information comes from has exploded exponentially as technology makes it ...
Viewed in that context, I think a pretty strong case can be made that these people (and many others) have, literally, been distracted by echo-chamber infotainment at the expense of processing legitimate information. They live in a manufactured reality that is reinforced every minute of every day by terrabytes of BS streaming onto ipod screens, televisions, blogs, podcasts, etc.

Technology is certainly a valuable tool with amazing potential for good, but I think it's probably a good idea to be reminded once in a while that it also has its pitfalls...]]> The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=237394#Comment_237394 2010-05-09T19:04:05-07:00 2013-06-19T03:42:32-07:00 oddbill http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4272 information becomes a distraction, a diversion, a form of entertainment, rather than a tool of empowerment, rather than the means of emancipation This is the point. This is what you should be ... information becomes a distraction, a diversion, a form of entertainment, rather than a tool of empowerment, rather than the means of emancipation

This is the point. This is what you should be paying attention to. This observation is valid.

You have a variety of tools that provide you always-on access to an electronic library of human knowledge the like of which has never before been seen, that was barely ever imagined, before it came to be.

What are you doing with it?

iPod (Music, mainly, and TV shows and movies. Can be used to listen to lectures, etc., but most often isn't. The question is how will you use it?)
iPad (Hobbled internet device, lots of apps that do not much of anything useful, possible reading device linked very closely to established media outlets - will most likely be used by most to watch TV and Movies, listen to music, and play pointless social games. Can be used as a much more worthwhile tool, but most often won't be. The question is how will you use it?)
xBoxes and Playstations (Immersive gaming experiences that drown attention in mostly contentless spectacle. Drains cognitive surplus just as shamelessly as Television always has. Could be used better, but mostly won't be. How will you use them?)

It isn't a mistake to lump these things together in this context. These are tools that sit between a lot of people's brains and the growing body of electronically stored human knowledge. These are the tunable filters we voluntarily use. How are we using them? What are we deliberately filtering? What are we allowing to monopolize out attention by default, without giving it much thought?

I occasionally work with younger children (10 to 12 year olds), and in my direct experience these things are an enormous influence, and usually a bad one. Not because they have to be, but because they are used thoughtlessly.

If you use these filters and do not thoughtfully tune them, and do not engage the world actively based on the information you receive through them, then they aren't tools of freedom, but voluntary shackles.

Point of the speech, it seems to me.]]> The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=237396#Comment_237396 2010-05-09T19:13:47-07:00 2010-05-09T21:18:51-07:00 SteadyUP http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5302 @MG - rhetorical convenience. And it does carry a generational stigma, but statements made by people not of our generation often do. Just how things are. Honestly, what surprises me is not what he ... The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=237398#Comment_237398 2010-05-09T19:19:52-07:00 2013-06-19T03:42:32-07:00 William George http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=7366 Again, these devices aren't just about entertainment. That's dismissive. There are applications that help juvenile diabetics track their glucose, create interactive reading experiences for children ... Again, these devices aren't just about entertainment. That's dismissive. There are applications that help juvenile diabetics track their glucose, create interactive reading experiences for children and provide a pretty endless array of information on any subject you can imagine.

Good for the makers of that technology! But it isn't what Obama was speaking negatively about.

As TPOS said, technology is a tool. It just constantly gets used as mindless distraction. For me, the fact that the "mindless distraction" part raises far more of an emotional response than the "tool for emancipation" part is a big problem. Why did more people fly into a rage over Roger Ebert saying games can't be art, rather than over Apple's walled garden? Or invasive DRM measures? Or the seeming end of net neutrality? Or FaceBook's privacy issues?

Obama didn't bash technology. He bashed using it like a mindless drone. Since most people do use it that way, and get very "Al-Quaeda" about it, he should be listened to.]]> The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=237400#Comment_237400 2010-05-09T20:36:17-07:00 2013-06-19T03:42:32-07:00 MG http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=8659 @Steadyup: It does seem really odd to be addressing people who came of age in in the era of iPods and broadband access that way. What gets under my skin about this really is how woefully ...
It does seem really odd to be addressing people who came of age in in the era of iPods and broadband access that way.

What gets under my skin about this really is how woefully ignorant (or playing at such) politicians are about technology, if not science in general. Especially the role the technology plays in people's day to day lives. An Xbox live account is more that just a way of keeping track of Halo scores, and an iPhone is more than just Peggle on your mobile. They're platforms for communication. The old argument of "put down your tech and go play outside" is less and less valid as technology starts to disappear into the very fabric of our daily life. Like saying "Stop with those woven fibers and put on some damn cotton"

Worth noting: Obama placed advertisements in video games back in 2008. ]]> The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=237415#Comment_237415 2010-05-09T23:54:03-07:00 2013-06-19T03:42:32-07:00 oddbill http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4272 What gets under my skin about this really is how woefully ignorant (or playing at such) politicians are about technology, if not science in general. MG, I think you are reacting to a (well earned) ... What gets under my skin about this really is how woefully ignorant (or playing at such) politicians are about technology, if not science in general.

MG, I think you are reacting to a (well earned) perception of technical ignorance among politicians as a class which is actually not a problem with Obama and not actually present in this speech.

He's not denigrating specific tools, he's warning about a very obvious and valid danger in a 24/7 media information environment. It could perhaps have been phrased in a way that wouldn't bug you so much, and clearly his attempt at self-deprecating humor fell flat for you, but seriously - every move he made throughout his campaign, and his sophisticated understanding of the issue he is actually talking about in the speech point to the clear reality that he is not ignorant about technology and not playing at ignorance.

As William George above has pointed out twice now, it's worth taking a step back and looking at your own assumptions about technology if your immediate reaction to hearing a cogent critique of always-on media noise is to suspect the person making that criticism of technophobia.

He is absolutely not saying "put down your tech and play outside". He is saying "don't cocoon yourself with trivial use of tools from the factual world".]]> The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=237424#Comment_237424 2010-05-10T03:00:49-07:00 2013-06-19T03:42:32-07:00 Flabyo http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1306 they should step back and re-examine the role these toys have in their lives. An extremely significant one for many many people. It's true that many children do play with them too much. Same as ... they should step back and re-examine the role these toys have in their lives.
An extremely significant one for many many people.

It's true that many children do play with them too much. Same as there are kids who are allowed to watch too much TV, or spend too much time on sunbeds, or in the park drinking cider with their friends.

But far more people take genuine pleasure from them, for many they're an escape that is far more stimulating for them than watching the tv or even reading a book. In the far east gaming simply doesn't carry the stigma that it still seems to have in the US, it's seen as just being part of the wider entertainment spectrum rather than some evil ghetto where only the nerds and social outcasts hang.

Yeah, fair enough it's not really the point Obama is trying to make, but the fact that that was both my reaction to it, and the reaction of a lot of industry types, probably tells you that we feel a little over persecuted sometimes.

Maybe someone in a position of power could actually stand up and say something nice about us for once (and not just when there's an election looming, I'm looking at you here Chancellor Darling...)]]> The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=237429#Comment_237429 2010-05-10T03:59:37-07:00 2010-05-10T04:00:56-07:00 Audley Strange http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4475 This may be slightly tangential but I think it represents a good example of the information overload. This may be slightly tangential but I think it represents a good example of the information overload.]]> The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=237430#Comment_237430 2010-05-10T04:01:51-07:00 2013-06-19T03:42:32-07:00 MG http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=8659 @Oddbill As Flabyo put it, it's that it's so easy to just take a shot at "gadgets" and how rarely you see leaders, let alone politicians, making anything other than a sweeping ...
As Flabyo put it, it's that it's so easy to just take a shot at "gadgets" and how rarely you see leaders, let alone politicians, making anything other than a sweeping generalization or oversimplification. Apps, of all kinds, are multi-billion dollar industry. Gaming itself, as entertainment as well as social movement/ethos, can't rightly be ignored.

He is absolutely not saying "put down your tech and play outside". He is saying "don't cocoon yourself with trivial use of tools from the factual world".
Actually, he's said just that on a prior occasion. Which didn't sit well with Microsoft as you might imagine.

Odd thing to note, Obama's comments in both these cases were to largely African-American audiences.]]> The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=237433#Comment_237433 2010-05-10T04:23:40-07:00 2013-06-19T03:42:32-07:00 oddbill http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4272 Actually, he's said just that on a prior occasion. But he didn't actually say that. What he said, in the context of a statement about responsible parenting: To parents, we can’t tell our kids ... Actually, he's said just that on a prior occasion.

But he didn't actually say that. What he said, in the context of a statement about responsible parenting:

To parents, we can’t tell our kids to do well in school and fail to support them when they get home. For our kids to excel, we must accept our own responsibilities. That means putting away the Xbox and putting our kids to bed at a reasonable hour. It means attending those parent-teacher conferences, reading to our kids, and helping them with their homework...


That is not at all saying "put down your tech and play outside" at all, and it isn't being a luddite or demonizer of technology. It's not even an attack on gaming. It simply isn't. He's saying don't let your kids stay up late playing video games when they are going to school the next day.

Again, this isn't an attack on technology, it's an insistence that we make conscious, deliberate choices about how we allow technology to shape our lives.]]> The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=237435#Comment_237435 2010-05-10T04:44:13-07:00 2010-05-10T04:46:58-07:00 Doc Ocassi http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=410 "With iPods and iPads and Xboxes and PlayStations, -- none of which I know how to work -- information becomes a distraction, a diversion, a form of entertainment, rather than a tool of ... "With iPods and iPads and Xboxes and PlayStations, -- none of which I know how to work -- information becomes a distraction, a diversion, a form of entertainment, rather than a tool of empowerment, rather than the means of emancipation," Obama said.
I can't see the similarity between Ithings and consoles, they are made for two distinct purposes and have about as much in common as radios and cockpits, so firstly why talk about what you don't know! Isn't he also mixing up information and entertainment. If he wants to have a go at news-entertainment go for the media magnates, that would be foolhardy.

I don't think and of these tools have ever pushed themselves as a means of empowerment, they are consumer devices and were never meant to empower, what is the point of empowerment in modern consumer goods, it is beneficial for them to keep you weak and needy. This begs the question of emancipation from what, itself?
(edit: well maybe Ithings have, but no-one should really buy that shit.)

Why doesn't he have a go at consumer goods in general, it could be beneficial to the US if they stop buying these disposable electronic devices made abroad. Could this be a forbearer of a new puritanism. Time to tighten your belts America, and you will do it for your own mental health.]]> The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=237437#Comment_237437 2010-05-10T05:00:03-07:00 2013-06-19T03:42:32-07:00 MG http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=8659 @Doc Ocassi: Well, since two of the three manufacturers of those products are American companies, upon whom whole industries subsist, I think calling it's unlikely to see anything more than a ...
Well, since two of the three manufacturers of those products are American companies, upon whom whole industries subsist, I think calling it's unlikely to see anything more than a rather flourish-y chiding come down.

@Oddbill:

Sorry, I disagree. It's the same old rut of seeing (insert technology here) as the problem and not part of the solution. Or at very least, understanding how that technology can be part of the solution.

On a more fundamental level, President Super-Nanny chiding parents is a whole 'nother level of irritation.]]> The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=237445#Comment_237445 2010-05-10T05:56:05-07:00 2013-06-19T03:42:32-07:00 Verissimus http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=3379 I can see what Obama's saying but you can't equate gaming with the information overload thing. It's all just about doing things in moderation, and not getting carried away. When people start ...
It's all just about doing things in moderation, and not getting carried away. When people start believing that their blogger of choice knows all they're lost.]]> The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=237448#Comment_237448 2010-05-10T06:55:09-07:00 2013-06-19T03:42:32-07:00 mister hex http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4411 There's a list of things that gets passed out to professors every year, to remind them of the mind-set that their freshman students have. They've never heard of the Cold War, since it was over when ...
Young people relate differently to technology than "older" people. I think Obama's encouraging moderation is a very good thing. Wikipedia can be wrong, you know. (I know people who teach who HATE to see Wikipedia citations used as "research." That's like learning about sex on a streetcorner. It MIGHT be correct, it might be colored by biases you don't know about, it might be a pack of lies.)]]> The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=237450#Comment_237450 2010-05-10T07:18:56-07:00 2010-05-10T07:19:34-07:00 rickiep00h http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2930 On a more fundamental level, President Super-Nanny chiding parents is a whole 'nother level of irritation.Irresponsible, ineffective parents do, in fact, need chiding. There's obviously no one else ... On a more fundamental level, President Super-Nanny chiding parents is a whole 'nother level of irritation.Irresponsible, ineffective parents do, in fact, need chiding. There's obviously no one else telling these people that the reason their children are little shits is because they're not getting help with their homework and have no boundaries in their lives.

FOR EXAMPLE: The family across the street from me very obviously is unemployed. They start drinking at 11am on weekdays, and continue to do so throughout the entire day and most of the night. This, on its own, isn't necessarily something I have a problem with. But they also have what appears to be between four and six children all of preschool through elementary school age. They're allowed to run through the alleyway (which no one drives any less than 30mph down), out into the street, and so on. It's only a matter of time until one of them gets hit by a car or someone (probably me) has to call the police for child negligence. And these are (mostly) kids that aren't even to the point of having "real" schoolwork. The entire social circle of this family--at least the part that I've seen, which is easily enough people to qualify as "entire"--allows this to continue.

Who is telling these parents that they're endangering their kids? Who is stepping out there to say "You're doing it wrong"? (I would except they're bigger than me and I've seen physical violence erupt over there more than once.)

The sad part is that the people this message is intended for will never hear it because of the exact thing the president is speaking against: willful ignorance and distraction from fact and/or the things that actually make a difference in the bigger picture. They're never going to hear even the base message because they don't watch the news (even with the Fox News spin, you're going to get a soundbite or two before the flapping heads start yelling about how much of a douche the guy is.) They don't read the papers, or use the internet for news purposes. No, I'd say the president was spot-on. It's just that no one that needs to hear it, will.

And yes, the naming of specific items is for rhetorical purposes. People usually identify with specifics more than generalized concepts. Saying "Ya gotta put all this stuff that's distracting you aside and focus on things that matter" is a good concept, but without putting a name on "this stuff" most people just nod their head and go "Yup, that's a good idea" and then go right back to whatever they're doing.

@mister hex - The Facebook research thing is an interesting point. The problem with Wikipedia is that the standards for some things are much more strict than others. There's probably much tighter control on, say, the biographical details of George Washington than on the process of rubber vulcanization. The very concept of Wikipedia--that anyone can edit it--does as much to hurt it as help it. I can understand an aversion to using it, but to vehemently disallow its use is silly. (Besides, if the Wiki is any good, you can just click on the source link and get the original source. The professors that disallow any website, though... those are the ones that have obviously lost touch with information technology. You can usually spot them by their inability to use an overhead projector.)]]> The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=237454#Comment_237454 2010-05-10T07:54:06-07:00 2013-06-19T03:42:32-07:00 William George http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=7366 In the far east gaming simply doesn't carry the stigma that it still seems to have in the US, it's seen as just being part of the wider entertainment spectrum rather than some evil ghetto where only ... In the far east gaming simply doesn't carry the stigma that it still seems to have in the US, it's seen as just being part of the wider entertainment spectrum rather than some evil ghetto where only the nerds and social outcasts hang.

Who told you that?

Like back home, a lot of people have a gaming system or two. Mostly as a toy for children, but there's no shame is owning a Wii. Hardcore gamers are seen as otaku dweebs here as much as they are back home. I guess that's the downside of using your toys as a personal identifier.]]> The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=237561#Comment_237561 2010-05-10T16:08:35-07:00 2013-06-19T03:42:32-07:00 MG http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=8659 @William George: I don't think there's any need to be crass, nor do I think anyone here has claimed that these "toys" are a personal identifier. I have a hard time reading your posts ...
I don't think there's any need to be crass, nor do I think anyone here has claimed that these "toys" are a personal identifier.

I have a hard time reading your posts when you very quickly start whipping around insults and generalizations.]]> The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=237565#Comment_237565 2010-05-10T16:37:51-07:00 2013-06-19T03:42:32-07:00 rickiep00h http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2930 MG - You've been here less than a month, so I'm going to chalk it up to being new, but to make the critique you did against William George while simultaneously offering the post I responded to isn't ...
Furthermore, his point is still valid. Any time somebody identifies himself with something, and then that something gets attacked, that somebody is going to feel attacked as well. Insert "toys" with "music" or "film" or "comics" and watch people flip out when the thing they care about gets attacked.

Honestly, so far the only critique I have is that throwing video game systems into the mix seems to have been a bad move from a writing perspective. People are getting all up in arms about the video game thing, and--rather ironically--getting distracted away from the actual message.]]> The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=237566#Comment_237566 2010-05-10T16:47:32-07:00 2013-06-19T03:42:32-07:00 RenThing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=155 @rickiep00h Any time somebody identifies himself with something, and then that something gets attacked, that somebody is going to feel attacked as well. Insert "toys" with ...
Any time somebody identifies himself with something, and then that something gets attacked, that somebody is going to feel attacked as well. Insert "toys" with "music" or "film" or "comics" and watch people flip out when the thing they care about gets attacked.

Friend of mine has a black shirt on it that simply says "Your favorite band sucks" and you wouldn't (or maybe you would) believe the number of people who have justified why X group are actually musical geniuses that don't suck.

People are getting all up in arms about the video game thing, and--rather ironically--getting distracted away from the actual message.

Indeed. Too many people are going off about how the President supposedly slandered the good name of entertainment electronics and ignoring the fact he was calling on people to have more than simply distractions in their lives.]]> The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=237574#Comment_237574 2010-05-10T17:35:40-07:00 2010-05-10T17:36:13-07:00 William George http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=7366 I don't think there's any need to be crass Trust me, if I were whipping around insults and being crass, you'd be wiping the soot from your flamed-off eyebrows right now. I don't think there's any need to be crass

Trust me, if I were whipping around insults and being crass, you'd be wiping the soot from your flamed-off eyebrows right now.]]> The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=237578#Comment_237578 2010-05-10T18:15:20-07:00 2010-05-10T18:19:56-07:00 MG http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=8659 @rickiepooh: I meant no offense. If anything, I felt a bit baited by some of William's posts. I'm not trying to start any sort of row, fighting on the internet about the internet is double-plus ...
I meant no offense. If anything, I felt a bit baited by some of William's posts. I'm not trying to start any sort of row, fighting on the internet about the internet is double-plus stupid. My apologies for any offense.]]> The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=237596#Comment_237596 2010-05-10T20:34:40-07:00 2010-05-10T20:35:08-07:00 William George http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=7366 Look man, let me be clear: I'm not insulting you. Obama is not insulting you. You took opinions about amazing technology being wasted on seeing how well Kratos can slaughter people that you didn't ...
I'm not insulting you. Obama is not insulting you. You took opinions about amazing technology being wasted on seeing how well Kratos can slaughter people that you didn't like and acted as if they were personal insults.

Step back from the subject and think about it.]]> The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=237597#Comment_237597 2010-05-10T21:03:54-07:00 2013-06-19T03:42:32-07:00 MG http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=8659 @William George: To be clear, I don't take what Obama said or what you wrote as personal insults. I think he was being, and has been, overly general on the subject. Something I think doesn't suit ...
To be clear, I don't take what Obama said or what you wrote as personal insults. I think he was being, and has been, overly general on the subject. Something I think doesn't suit him honestly.

I didn't see a way to reply to your posts without getting snarky or going tit for tat. That's not something that works here and not worth our time. If that's not how you meant it, I'm sorry for my mistake.]]> The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=237605#Comment_237605 2010-05-11T01:00:57-07:00 2013-06-19T03:42:32-07:00 Flabyo http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1306 I do think it's a little weird that if you choose to identify yourself with a band or a comic most people are fine with that, but if you're a gamer you're somehow a lesser person. I guess we bring ...
I guess we bring it on ourselves to a certain extent, heh.]]> The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=237608#Comment_237608 2010-05-11T01:26:50-07:00 2013-06-19T03:42:32-07:00 steve.B http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=8626 Sounded like a pretty level headed comment to me. He wasn't even attacking video games, he was talking about the information age in general and just saying "be careful, because not all of this ... The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=237610#Comment_237610 2010-05-11T01:58:41-07:00 2010-05-11T02:07:09-07:00 oddbill http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4272 but if you're a gamer you're somehow a lesser person This is probably one of those things someone who doesn't game much just doesn't see - but I don't see the stigma. The number of people who game ... but if you're a gamer you're somehow a lesser person

This is probably one of those things someone who doesn't game much just doesn't see - but I don't see the stigma. The number of people who game on a semi-regular basis seems to be approaching 100% of the population. I don't know anyone who looks askance at anyone for playing games. I do know people who don't get the notion of actually identifying oneself as a gamer, but that's not usually a "look down on them" thing as much as it is a "don't get it" thing. That's common for any outsiders to any self-defined subculture, though. I was big on D&D back in the day, and very few people I knew understood that. I wouldn't interpret their bafflement at why anyone would enjoy that activity as a judgement.

If you think comics don't engender the same kinds of reactions that games do, you probably aren't as closely invested in comics. Comics are BY FAR much less culturally cool than games. Even still, comics aren't seen as the juvenile waste of time that they once were, though many people would be far less embarrassed to be seen in public playing Rock Band than reading Spiderman, for example.

Identifying with bands isn't in the same category as music has always been for the cool kids.

I do get that games have been a popular public scapegoat for a long time, but I think you kind of have to take a look at the way the field has changed - everyone games. Just about everyone from every age group. The idea that games are delivered on electronic devices is no longer an especially noteworthy differentiator. Everyone with a smartphone has some kind of game on it. People play social games on their phones and on Facebook - people of all ages and all professions. Families have wii consoles and karaoke machines in their homes, in addition to the more teen-aggressive xbox/playstations. Grandmothers have Nintendo DSes. The lines between electronic games and boardgames and traditional puzzles like crosswords and sudoku have completely disappeared. Gaming just isn't a ghetto anymore. It's a core, integrated feature of culture.

The only thing that is odd about gamers anymore is the desire to identify as a gamer, rather than as a person who just sometimes plays games. It's kind of like declaring yourself a cineaste, instead of just seeing a bunch of movies. I totally get what there is to be gained in the self-identification, the interesting and creative culture that grows around the shared identity, but most people just see movies or play games, and don't get the culture. They don't look down on it, they just don't get it. Eventually you learn how to code switch depending on the company, and it's all cool. ("Don't talk about orcs around girls" I can recall advising a friend in Junior High School.)

PVP

I guess what I'm saying is, don't look for offense - it most often isn't intended.]]> The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=237620#Comment_237620 2010-05-11T04:45:39-07:00 2013-06-19T03:42:32-07:00 MG http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=8659 @oddbill: I think it goes beyond simply identifying yourself as a gamer. I don't personally, but I work with kids and video games are a huge part of that. Social games like DDR, Guitar Hero, ...
I think it goes beyond simply identifying yourself as a gamer. I don't personally, but I work with kids and video games are a huge part of that. Social games like DDR, Guitar Hero, Singstar as well as MMOs and Wii games are part and parcel of the youth outreach that's part of my job. I see the positive impact it has on drawing kids out and creating friendships. Game nights and events we've done have drawn kids from all over our community.

The sensitivity to me is not acknowledging just how much games HAVE permeated the culture and how gaming (and the tech platforms they come on) can be huge boons.

Anecdotal evidence here. I brought a Wii fit to a community center in one of the most blighted areas of Chicago (Austin) and we set up an recurring game night for kids and their parents. First night we had 10 people. Second, we had 50. We ended up bringing in a second console and tv in subsequent visits. Parents and grandparents came up to me and my fellow volunteers, some of them near tears, thanking us. They said how their kids were in a safe place, having fun and being social. Something that, in that area, was rare as rubies in the street. I felt like a heel since having a game console in my home was something I never even thought of as a luxury, but for those kids it was a gigantic benefit.

I think I'd just like to hear more positive talk on this topic in general. Perhaps my patience for platitudes is a little thin.]]> The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=237621#Comment_237621 2010-05-11T05:03:22-07:00 2013-06-19T03:42:32-07:00 Verissimus http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=3379 Gaming can be fun. It can also fuck you up badly, if you don't remember you need to stop to bathe or eat or get some fresh air every now and then.
It can also fuck you up badly, if you don't remember you need to stop to bathe or eat or get some fresh air every now and then.]]> The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=237631#Comment_237631 2010-05-11T07:04:59-07:00 2013-06-19T03:42:32-07:00 Cat Vincent http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=447 Far more interesting to me than worrying about whether Obama is a gam3z h4t0r is how the speech ties into his interest in "cognitive infiltration" of conspiracy/dissident websites: In a ... cognitive infiltration" of conspiracy/dissident websites:
In a 2008 academic paper, President Barack Obama's appointee to head the Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs advocated "cognitive infiltration" of groups that advocate "conspiracy theories" like the ones surrounding 9/11.

Cass Sunstein, a Harvard law professor, co-wrote an academic article entitled "Conspiracy Theories: Causes and Cures," in which he argued that the government should stealthily infiltrate groups that pose alternative theories on historical events via "chat rooms, online social networks, or even real-space groups and attempt to undermine" those groups.

As head of the Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs, Sunstein is in charge of "overseeing policies relating to privacy, information quality, and statistical programs," according to the White House Web site.

Sunstein's article, published in the Journal of Political Philosphy in 2008 and recently uncovered by blogger Marc Estrin, states that "our primary claim is that conspiracy theories typically stem not from irrationality or mental illness of any kind but from a 'crippled epistemology,' in the form of a sharply limited number of (relevant) informational sources."

By "crippled epistemology" Sunstein means that people who believe in conspiracy theories have a limited number of sources of information that they trust. Therefore, Sunstein argued in the article, it would not work to simply refute the conspiracy theories in public -- the very sources that conspiracy theorists believe would have to be infiltrated.


When a leader tells you how to define truth - worry.]]> The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=237637#Comment_237637 2010-05-11T07:42:14-07:00 2013-06-19T03:42:32-07:00 kperkins http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=456 If all you got out of that speech was that video games suck/are the devil, then the blinders need to come off. He picked those 4 devices because they are all literally entertainment devices. That's ... entertainment devices. That's what they have in common. Did you buy an iPod (or Zune, or whatever) to listen to TED talks? No you bought it to put a few thousand songs on it to listen to--that's what 99.9% of people do. That iPad. There are some great apps to do ___, "ah, f-- it, let's download a shitload of comics". And no one buys an Xbox or Playstation to get educated. And I've heard, and seen the "communication" going on on Xbox live. It's called trash talking most places. All of these devices feed you shit, if you let them, as most people do.
The speech is a warning: and who better to warn than the people who are growing up with devices that are feeding them entertainment. He's trying to inspire them to become something other than passive consumers of entertainment, and news as entertainment. Also, while I disagree with many of Obama's policies, and agree with the comment about the "nanny state", I see no problem with the POTUS using his status to try to inspire young people to become makers instead of consumers, because Squid knows we need more makers.]]> The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=237638#Comment_237638 2010-05-11T07:44:20-07:00 2013-06-19T03:42:32-07:00 kperkins http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=456 @Cat Vincent: Maybe you should make another thread for that, since it really has nothing to do with this one. I'm sure that'll bring the Ass Eels down on this topic. The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=237653#Comment_237653 2010-05-11T09:05:23-07:00 2013-06-19T03:42:32-07:00 Cat Vincent http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=447 @kperkins: I'm sure if it's considered off-topic (which I don't think it is - it does tie in to Obama's actual speech - or I wouldn't have posted here!) Ariana or others will make it known. I'm sure if it's considered off-topic (which I don't think it is - it does tie in to Obama's actual speech - or I wouldn't have posted here!) Ariana or others will make it known.]]> The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=237660#Comment_237660 2010-05-11T10:15:04-07:00 2010-05-11T10:20:15-07:00 oogliemooglie http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=7645 For what its worth, I think Cat Vincent's post is directly related to Obama's speech, although maybe not directly responding to the misinterpretation/overreaction to it. I think it's an interesting ...
I think it is a legitimate concern that lies become truth in the 24/7 internet echo-chamber, and that people who only access certain sources of information can completely avoid reality. I mean, have you ever seen the "opinion polls" on Fox News? If you're a moron, you read those polls and believe that 98% of the population holds conservative views, without realizing that the poll only reflects the demographic that reads and responds to Fox News. And really, if you're just in it for the screaming matches, who wants to read facts and figures that might dispute your worldview anyway? Once someone makes that mistake (or more accurately: is led by the nose down that path), their view of political reality becomes distorted. (I use Fox because its an easy target, but obviously this happens on both ends of the political spectrum).

Having government agents infiltrate these groups with the intention of influencing their views is scary as hell and obviously not the answer--but that doesn't negate the problem. If the citizenry doesn't have an accurate understanding of the problems we collectively face, its literally impossible to arrive at collective solutions. In that context, technology can cause as much harm as good, no matter how cool it is.]]> The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=237661#Comment_237661 2010-05-11T10:31:00-07:00 2013-06-19T03:42:32-07:00 oogliemooglie http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=7645 I'd also posit that self-identifying as a "gamer" deserves at least some ridicule. By definition games are a trivial diversion. I play lots of video games and enjoy the hell out of them, ...
I don't think Obama was saying video games are bad--I think his point was that if all you do with the amazing technology available to you is play games or rock out to Brittney Spears, you're missing out.]]> The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=237670#Comment_237670 2010-05-11T11:14:43-07:00 2013-06-19T03:42:32-07:00 kperkins http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=456 @cat vincent: on 2nd reading I see where that does tie in somewhat, in a conspiracy theorist sort of way, so, sorry about that. @oogliemooglie : Couldn't agree more with your last 2 posts. @oogliemooglie : Couldn't agree more with your last 2 posts.]]> The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=237675#Comment_237675 2010-05-11T11:29:11-07:00 2013-06-19T03:42:32-07:00 mister hex http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4411 Can't remember where I saw this quote bUt ..."Ah, the Internet! Where men are men, the women are men and the children are FBI agents. " The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=237734#Comment_237734 2010-05-11T14:44:30-07:00 2013-06-19T03:42:32-07:00 JiveKitty http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=7925 Trivial diversion. Identification. Meh. If they're one of the things that are enjoyed most, I don't see why a person wouldn't self-identify as a "gamer" or why that would be ridiculed. ...
Gaming is also an activity accessible practically every day if you've got a functioning system and games. Gamers, as self-identified, potentially have many other diverse interests, such as playing sport, martial arts, socialising, watching movies and television, following current events, going to gigs, whatever (and I know many gamers who have these interests, including the more active ones). But by and large, many people don't self-identify a tag with these things as they are fairly passive activities, activities which are just done in the course of functioning in society, or activities which one tends to need a certain level of proficiency - which tends to be a lot more limited by potential scope of ability than a gamer's - in before they feel they should self-identify. Many of the more active ones are, for the non-professional, also typically scheduled only a few times a week (although one may potentially devote more time to them and the activities around them than they devote to gaming in a week): frequency can trump quantity.

As to Obama's speech, I think his general thrust about the media environment was probably correct. However, I think he singled out the wrong products, possibly the iPad being the exception, as the others are specifically targeted as entertainment platforms on the whole and don't tend to be viewed as dispensers of truthful/realistic information as to the world. Criticising an entertainment platform for being an entertainment platform seems a little silly, despite it potentially being a drain on cognitive surplus (but then so are many other activities which are less overt about what they are, perhaps). I think if you want people to become more than passive consumers of news/information as entertainment, you need to hammer home that op-eds, regardless as to the form they come in, should not be taken as fact, that people should attempt to get news/information from a variety of sources, that people should concentrate on the known facts of what is being said rather than the opinion written around them and work back from that to inform their own conclusions, that headlines are often misleading and unrepresentative of what is being stated, that just because a large number of people believe something it isn't necessarily true, and so-on. Nonetheless, I am only going off MG's initial quote here, as out of necessity I must be careful with bandwidth, so have not viewed the whole speech.

People being derisive about gaming isn't really an issue for me although I may have written a bit here. Strangely enough, many of the things William George mentioned (Apple's Walled Garden, invasive DRM, etc) frustrate me much more than this or Ebert saying games can't be art. As for Wikipedia and research, at my university there was a blanket ban on citing it in research, and I can understand why, although that said, books and articles are going to have biases that you'll need to boil out as well. However, where peer-reviewed or from reputable sources, there will still be the biases but there's less likelihood the facts as much as they are known will be outright wrong.]]> The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=237750#Comment_237750 2010-05-11T16:35:33-07:00 2013-06-19T03:42:32-07:00 Flabyo http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1306 I am a gamer. I suck at sports (genetic condition, can't build the muscle to be any good at them, oddly decent hockey player though...) I identify as that. Everything good and enjoyable in my ...
I identify as that. Everything good and enjoyable in my entire life that has happened to me has been as a direct result of being a gamer.

I'm a videogame programmer by trade now. I earn a good salary off it. It is, quite clearly, the most important factor of my entire life on this planet thus far.

Ridicule me all you want.]]> The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=237764#Comment_237764 2010-05-11T18:40:23-07:00 2013-06-19T03:42:32-07:00 0neiromancer http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5802 This is one of the few things I've ever agreed with from Obama. It's weird to go to a restaurant or pub and hearing "beep...beep...diblump...beep," instead of people actually ...
It's weird to go to a restaurant or pub and hearing "beep...beep...diblump...beep," instead of people actually talking.
I've come close to physical violence before when two people who are sitting right next to each other are texting
one another. People's ability to physically interact is in the infancy of becoming seriously affected.
In some ways it seems like in the last 10 years, my generation (20-30) decided, "no way are robots gonna put
us in the matrix...cause we're going to do it ourselves."

I don't own a video game system, or a smartphone. I don't have a large understanding of these things, but I don't fear
them. I will say that 80% of the people I know who have these things lead significantly different lives than those
who dont, and most have a hard time being in physically social situations.

I think gaming is largely a drug for these people. The way they talk is practically identical to the way people
who do alot of substance use, lways talking about that "one time I go so high."

Once again, I have nothing against gaming, and smart-tech (or most drugs.) There's just some people
that can do it, and some people who REALLY shouldn't. As with most things, the ones who shouldn't
are the ones doing it the most.]]> The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=237834#Comment_237834 2010-05-12T07:05:30-07:00 2013-06-19T03:42:32-07:00 William George http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=7366 I don't see why a person wouldn't self-identify as a "gamer" or why that would be ridiculed Let's put it this way: If someone stands up and proudly declares, "Hey world! I watch TV! ... I don't see why a person wouldn't self-identify as a "gamer" or why that would be ridiculed

Let's put it this way: If someone stands up and proudly declares, "Hey world! I watch TV! Five hundred channels! Respect me and my TV-watching culture!" others have the right to raise their eyebrow, or giggle a little at them.

And when they act as if they're being persecuted like they were Jews in Warsaw every time someone says something negative about games, people should have the right to ridicule them for leaping over the boundaries of sanity and doing a little end zone shuffle around the sense of perspective they just spiked into the ground.]]> The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=237969#Comment_237969 2010-05-13T05:40:55-07:00 2013-06-19T03:42:32-07:00 city creed http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4530 @Flabyo makes a strong case for games being non-trivial. There are many other arguments that could be given in support of it. CG Jung said something like (I think) "The greater the mind, the ... CG Jung said something like (I think) "The greater the mind, the greater its capacity, and its need, for play."
What is a chess grandmaster if not simply a particular species of gamer? Are we mocking Kasparov for taking it all so seriously? (the chess, that is, clearly the man is insane)

As @oogliemooglie says, making your gamer-ness the sole defining feature of your life does kinda seem pathetic, but actually, isn't it kinda pathetic to make any single thing the sole defining feature of your life? Most people I know tend to be a bit more plural in their interests than that. Many of them would proudly claim to be gamers but that's hardly the limit of their activities. @oddbill has already said most of that of course, but regular gamers do have their own distinct language, their own conventions, their own heroes. It's easy to see that's where the pseudo-tribal identity emerges from, but knowing who Leeeeeeeroy Jenkins was, what the Guiding Hand did or why you don't want BL00D_TK on your side in a team deathmatch has no real bearing on whether you are a "r34l" gamer or not.

I think the word gamer is mostly just about a perception, as the comic strip posted on page 2 so neatly illustrates. We are almost all gamers of one sort or another, it's actually kind of a meaningless word in terms of describing a category of people. "console owners", "MMORPG players", "FFXXVIII addicts" all do a much better job of defining a specific group of people with something in common than the word gamers does. To extend oddbill's analogy, "gamers" could be considered roughly equivalent to "movie lovers" in general and those more specific sub-groups mentioned above could be referred to in terms of their genre interest, horror fans, noir fans, etc.

If some authority figure came out saying that movies were awful and rotted your brain then they would be laughed out of the room. Or get their eyes gouged out by Roger Ebert's atavistic thumbs. The irritated reaction of gamers when somebody says the same thing about games is legitimate. It just proves how out of touch and ignorant the person is. Please note: I well understand that this was not what Obama meant, fwiw I think he made a perfectly sensible point.]]> The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=238004#Comment_238004 2010-05-13T08:19:01-07:00 2013-06-19T03:42:32-07:00 rickiep00h http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2930 FFXXVIII? Is that the one where they finally admit they're tired of making games and make a movie that only plays if you're holding the controller? The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=238023#Comment_238023 2010-05-13T10:26:52-07:00 2013-06-19T03:42:32-07:00 city creed http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4530 I have no idea, never played/watched it. Apparently the hair is very realistic. The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=238053#Comment_238053 2010-05-13T14:03:42-07:00 2013-06-19T03:42:32-07:00 RenThing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=155 @rickiep00h That's a very fair summary of it I think.
That's a very fair summary of it I think.]]> The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=238069#Comment_238069 2010-05-13T16:35:16-07:00 2013-06-19T03:42:32-07:00 Rootfireember http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1551 If some authority figure came out saying that movies were awful and rotted your brain then they would be laughed out of the room But it has been said before that movies are unhealthy. It was also ...
If some authority figure came out saying that movies were awful and rotted your brain then they would be laughed out of the room
But it has been said before that movies are unhealthy. It was also said in the past that books rotted your brain.
New technology tends to be villainized and not understood by older generations because they haven't grown up with it, it's not part of their norm, and they tend to overgeneralize as well.

I know a lot of kids who play video and computer games often but wouldn't consider themselves 'gamers'- linking that idea to people who are loners, overweight, unclean and antisocial. They do lan parties, internet cafe parties, and use 'games' to augment their social life. It's a group activity, something they share with their friends, and many games they play also have chat systems within so they can type and talk to their friends as well. (Take what I say with a grain of salt or a handful or so- I do live in a conservative hellhole that's stuck back in time).]]> The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=238075#Comment_238075 2010-05-13T17:55:15-07:00 2013-06-19T03:42:32-07:00 city creed http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4530 @Roo - absolutely, it has been said before. But anyone saying now that "watching films is unhealthy" would be derided, and rightly so. It is not the film-watching that makes an unhealthy ...
heh, I don't think gamer necessarily carries the connotations of "loners, overweight, unclean and antisocial" although YMMV. I know people who are all those things but who aren't gamers, I know gamers who wouldn't fit any of those categories. I just don't think there's any plausible cause and effect relationship there. Yep, mp games are a means of social interaction but so are films and TV - otherwise the watercooler moment wouldn't exist. So are books and comics for that matter, or we wouldn't be engaged in this discussion right now :)]]> The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=238077#Comment_238077 2010-05-13T18:16:29-07:00 2010-05-13T18:16:57-07:00 Rootfireember http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1551 Citruscreed- I will agree that most gamers that I've known and met aren't like that. But the idea that they are seems fairly pervasive in my local area I will agree that most gamers that I've known and met aren't like that. But the idea that they are seems fairly pervasive in my local area]]> The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=238085#Comment_238085 2010-05-13T20:05:42-07:00 2013-06-19T03:42:32-07:00 rickiep00h http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2930 I don't think gamer necessarily carries the connotations of "loners, overweight, unclean and antisocial" although YMMV.But it does, that's the thing. And not just video games, but ... I don't think gamer necessarily carries the connotations of "loners, overweight, unclean and antisocial" although YMMV.But it does, that's the thing. And not just video games, but wargaming, card games, pen-and-paper RPGs, LARP, and so on.

The thing is, anyone that does a sedentary activity to excess is going to get fat or [long list of unpleasant qualities] if they don't take care of themselves, as well. Watching movies 8 hours a day will make you fat if you don't exercise. Sitting at a desk for 13 hours a day will make you smell pretty bad after a couple days if you don't shower.

This is the thing about the "gamer" stereotype: it only focuses on the people that do it constantly, to excess, to the exclusion of all else. That doesn't happen with most other activities. People who run for 2 miles a day rarely get lumped in with people that run a marathon every weekend. The thing is, I don't understand why. But there's a good many things about human society I don't really get, so I'm not going to make a huge case out of it.

Also, from personal experience, I find that simply not caring what people think about your hobbies is a good way to get them to stop making a big deal out of it, unless it involves animal sacrifice or drinking urine. I still get the "OMG YOU PLAY MAGIC?! NERD!" line when I mention it. But then I explain that behind the monsters and spells and nomenclature (and still, sadly, one too many pictures of semi-naked elf chicks) there is a complex game of strategy and probability, sort of like chess with 8000 different pieces. That usually shuts most hecklers up. While not every video game lives up to that description, there are still redeeming qualities in games, and to ignore or ridicule people just on the basis of whether or not they play video games is silly. Yet people still do it.

Anyway, that's enough derailment from me.]]> The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=238116#Comment_238116 2010-05-14T03:54:31-07:00 2013-06-19T03:42:32-07:00 city creed http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4530 not derailment; promulgating an interesting discussion into new territory ;) LARP is almost by definition a social activity that involves some kind of physical element, more than sitting round a ...
LARP is almost by definition a social activity that involves some kind of physical element, more than sitting round a table or at a computer does anyway. LARPers I know regularly go out in groups of a dozen or more, lugging equipment miles uphill to find somewhere they won't be disturbed by dogwalkers and then spending 6 or 8 hours running around brambled hilltops like maniacs. There are probably sheepdogs that get less exercise. I'd suggest that we either have to drop LARPers from our notional list of stereotype-fitting gamer subgroups or accept that gamers can be hypermobile too.

This is the thing about the "gamer" stereotype: it only focuses on the people that do it constantly, to excess, to the exclusion of all else.

This was the point I was trying to make above. People who are that obsessive about anything are unhealthy, it's not specific to gaming. I'm reminded of athletes I've known who spend practically their whole waking lives in preparation for their next competition. In my experience, that doesn't actually do their personality any favours at all. Eventually it often exacts a pretty heavy toll on their bodies too. I'd rather make small talk with a gamer who is used to being one of a diverse group of people and who, along with games, is also keenly interested in books, comics, movies etc.

Anecdotal:
I played a zombie MMO for about 15 months, logging in on average twice a day. It was a one-life-only deal so the stakes were a bit higher than most other MMOs. The group of gamers that survived the initial apocalypse (~50 out of 10,000) became close friends, coalescing into a tight unit, depending on each other to stay in the game. There are real bonds of loyalty there, and in a game where the "enemy" is a different bunch of human players playing zombies, there is really a lot to learn about human psychology under pressure, about team planning, even about the politics of keeping such a group of survivors from tearing itself apart in classic zombie movie style. Games give an opportunity to explore parts of our personalities that might otherwise never come to the fore. Games allow people to become leaders, visionaries, heroes, where real life holds few such possibilities for them.

Those gamers of mine are a very mixed bunch. One is the editor of a newspaper, one is a researcher on some kind of sinister-sounding federal program, one runs an animal sanctuary, one is a consultant who specialises in greening corporate spaces, one is a DJ and musician, several are students, there are also copywriters, artists, scientists, surfers and bloggers. They're from (among other places) the UK, the US, Oz, NZ, Japan, Germany and Canada. For the vast majority of them, gaming is just one aspect of who they are. Sure there are the "pro-gamers" who also play two dozen other MMOs and belong to sprawling online game clans that have thousands of members across dozens of games but those guys are actually a tiny minority of the gamer population. Mostly these are regular folks who also happen to be gamers, and they're some of the wiliest, most resilient and most reliable people I know.]]> The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=238130#Comment_238130 2010-05-14T05:35:12-07:00 2013-06-19T03:42:32-07:00 MG http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=8659 Not to put too fine a point on it, but a LOT of LARPers are women. Women who will kick you in the jimmies for assuming they're "someone's girlfriend" or "here for the costumes" or ...
When I did live action gaming back in college for every "comic book store guy" I met a half-dozen people who completely defied the stereotype.

Not to say the cheeto-stained are not amongst us, but assuming that's the whole of the audience is ultimately self-defeating. So much focus on the cliched consumer loses focus on drawing in new people as well as making folks already involved feel more welcome.]]> The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=238152#Comment_238152 2010-05-14T07:20:09-07:00 2013-06-19T03:42:32-07:00 Verissimus http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=3379 The real problem with games is addiction I think, and gaming does appear to have significant potential for that, similar to something like gambling. There have been several studies into it, and some ... The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=238397#Comment_238397 2010-05-15T07:13:52-07:00 2013-06-19T03:42:32-07:00 city creed http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4530 just saw this and thought I better post it here before anyone else did: intact stereotype for the win
intact stereotype for the win]]> The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=238428#Comment_238428 2010-05-15T11:21:42-07:00 2013-06-19T03:42:32-07:00 oddbill http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4272 I wonder if the writer of that caption used "2d3" A) on purpose knowing someone with a background in gaming would be annoyed at the fact that there is no such thing as a 3 sided ...
A) on purpose knowing someone with a background in gaming would be annoyed at the fact that there is no such thing as a 3 sided die...

B) on purpose to imitate a caption writer who would be ignorant of what the "xdy" damage notation actually represents, thus playing the role of an ignorant gamer-hater..

C) really didn't know what the notation represents.

:)]]> The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=238435#Comment_238435 2010-05-15T12:01:18-07:00 2013-06-19T03:42:32-07:00 jimmyjungle http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4591 loads of folk i know are internet slaves.much to her detriment ,my sister has had a series of online 'boyfriends' that she's never met physically,but refers to one as her angel,they tell eachother ... 15 years ago hustling oneself in this way would not have been possible,if you stayed inside at your parents house never striving towards anything,you had to admit to yourself that something was terribly wrong.
but now all the wounded,all the malformed,all the dangerously self-centred folk can just live on the internet free from true efforts ,challenges ,growth,life.
that's slavery.that's trying to cheat your way through life,but life and nature will allow you to mollycoddle yourself only so much before repercussions set in.
we're all at risk of copping out and dreaming\squabbling away our lives online.balance and being honest with yourself is key.if your defenses go straight up as soon as stuff like this is brought up,it's probably because deep down you know damn well it's the truth.
go camping and take mushrooms or something,feel the wonder.]]> The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=238446#Comment_238446 2010-05-15T12:53:23-07:00 2013-06-19T03:42:32-07:00 Flabyo http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1306 A d3 is just when you roll a d6 then half the result, rounding up... The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=238462#Comment_238462 2010-05-15T15:30:30-07:00 2013-06-19T03:42:32-07:00 oddbill http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4272 Heh. I've been out of it for a while. Though, 2d3 still seems nonsensical. How is the result different from just rolling 1d6?
Though, 2d3 still seems nonsensical. How is the result different from just rolling 1d6?]]> The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=238463#Comment_238463 2010-05-15T15:35:41-07:00 2010-05-15T15:39:09-07:00 Flabyo http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1306 1d6 is a value from 1 to 6 where each result is equally likely. 2d3 is a value from 2 to 6, but where rolling 2 or 6 is less likely than rolling 3 or 5, which in turn is less likely than rolling a ...
(oh, and there are d3's out there, they don't actually have three sides, but they're shaped such that they can only fall with one of three sides 'down'. Thinkgeek sell them...)

And that's enough derailing for one night. Sorry.]]> The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=238464#Comment_238464 2010-05-15T15:35:51-07:00 2010-05-15T15:36:20-07:00 rickiep00h http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2930 Well for one, you can't roll any lower than a two that way. Essentially you'd be doing 2-6 damage rather than 1-6. The difference is minute, but not at low levels. EDIT: and Flaybo beat me to it.
EDIT: and Flaybo beat me to it.]]> The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=238467#Comment_238467 2010-05-15T16:10:06-07:00 2010-05-16T02:22:54-07:00 Fan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6919 > Though, 2d3 still seems nonsensical. How is the result different from just rolling 1d6? Using 1d6 the probabilities of each value are: P(1) = 1/6 P(2) = 1/6 P(3) = 1/6 P(4) = 1/6 P(5) ... Though, 2d3 still seems nonsensical. How is the result different from just rolling 1d6?

Using 1d6 the probabilities of each value are:

P(1) = 1/6
P(2) = 1/6
P(3) = 1/6
P(4) = 1/6
P(5) = 1/6
P(6) = 1/6

Using 2d3 the probabilities of each value are:

P(2) = 1/9
P(3) = 2/9
P(4) = 3/9
P(5) = 2/9
P(6) = 1/9

The more dice you have, the more likely they are to roll an average (rather than an extreme) number; e.g. with 1d6, all values are equally likely, but with 2d3 the middle value (4) is the most likely and the extreme values (2 and 6) are least likely.]]> The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=238471#Comment_238471 2010-05-15T17:03:40-07:00 2013-06-19T03:42:32-07:00 city creed http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4530 Sweet mother of Gygax, what have you people done to this thread? The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=238474#Comment_238474 2010-05-15T17:45:58-07:00 2013-06-19T03:42:32-07:00 JiveKitty http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=7925 @Verus: Addiction does seem to be the problem, but the majority of those who identify as gamers are unlikely to be addicted, right? Yet, they're still typed as such. Whereas it's usually implicit ...
I don't identify as a gamer, although towards the end of my college years and at the start of my university years I could have, but it was never an addiction and wasn't the centrepiece of my life. I maintained an interest in a variety of other activities and stayed connected with the outside world. Gaming was just something I did and enjoyed most days, but it was never something that I couldn't put down to go and play basketball or whatever, and it never impaired my functionality in work or university studies.]]> The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=238479#Comment_238479 2010-05-15T18:05:18-07:00 2013-06-19T03:42:32-07:00 MG http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=8659 When does the Random Encounter Table just read "ARSE EELS: YOU ALL DIE"? The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=238480#Comment_238480 2010-05-15T18:13:05-07:00 2013-06-19T03:42:32-07:00 Soviet Rocket No. 9 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=8855 I feel as though I lose sense of myself when my net goes down. I scramble like a crac addict looking for his fix, when nothing seems to work. Then when it finally does, it feels as though nothing ... The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=238490#Comment_238490 2010-05-15T19:55:49-07:00 2013-06-19T03:42:32-07:00 James Cunningham http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2925 I'm glad I grew up without the internet, because if I hadn't I'd probably be in the same boat during the odd occasions it disappears. There's something comforting about knowing I can look something, ... The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=238521#Comment_238521 2010-05-15T23:34:43-07:00 2013-06-19T03:42:32-07:00 rickiep00h http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2930 I feel as though I lose sense of myself when my net goes down. I scramble like a crac addict looking for his fix, when nothing seems to work. Then when it finally does, it feels as though nothing ... I feel as though I lose sense of myself when my net goes down. I scramble like a crac addict looking for his fix, when nothing seems to work. Then when it finally does, it feels as though nothing happned but the memory.I just go play something on the Playstation that doesn't require the interwubs.

Though I suppose that's probably a bad example.]]> The Internet is Making You A Slave? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8201&Focus=240120#Comment_240120 2010-05-22T21:23:10-07:00 2013-06-19T03:42:32-07:00 Rootfireember http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1551 When my net goes down I text or otherwise use my cellphone, or hole up somewhere to read and draw until the problem is fixed. If I neeed to go online or whatever, I can always go down to a cafe and ... If I neeed to go online or whatever, I can always go down to a cafe and snag some time there. I do like the convenience of being able to chat whenever though.]]>