Whitechapel - RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS Wed, 19 Jun 2013 14:02:19 -0700 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.1.4 & Feed Publisher RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237624#Comment_237624 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237624#Comment_237624 Tue, 11 May 2010 06:06:18 -0700 mister hex
And gender? Two words - Power Girl. One ,ore word - stripperiffic, as in costume. DC seems to be ahead of Marvel in this respect (Batwoman, The Question) while Marvel has ... Girl Comics. (Perhaps I missed it but I haven't seen the second issue of that.)

Anyhow, long winded preamble out of the way, what are your thoughts on race and gender in comics?

http://robot6.comicbookresources.com/2010/05/race-and-superheroes-touching-fanboy-politics-third-rail/ ]]> RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237629#Comment_237629 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237629#Comment_237629 Tue, 11 May 2010 06:45:15 -0700 warrenellis
Also, briefly:

Marvel seems to have more non-white characters but quite a few seem to have 'Black' in their name


You understand that those characters were created in the Seventies, right? These are legacy properties, rather than someone in the year 2010 deciding that these are good names..!

And:

DC seems to be ahead of Marvel in this respect (Batwoman, The Question) while Marvel has ... Girl Comics

Jessica Jones? ]]> RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237630#Comment_237630 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237630#Comment_237630 Tue, 11 May 2010 06:45:34 -0700 Paladine
Edit: I hope that's not too much into genderfail / racefail territory. ]]> RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237632#Comment_237632 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237632#Comment_237632 Tue, 11 May 2010 07:05:33 -0700 mister hex
You understand that those characters were created in the Seventies, right? These are legacy properties, rather than someone in the year 2010 deciding that these are good names..!


I DO understand that. The Black Panther always made sense and Black Lightning was always Rule Of Cool for me.

DC "brought back" the Milestone characters and hasn't really done much with them. I know quite a few fans who loved Milestone and would like to see them get the attention they deserve but DC seems so ... slow. Meanwhile, Marvel has positioned Luke Cage as a major player in their universe and he's not quite the "jive-talkin'" character he was in the 1970's. And yes, Jessica Jones headlined her own series (sadly cancelled- why?) - in fact, most female superheroes can't sell or don't get the leeway a male character might get, vis a vis low sales. DC's Manhunter was an awesome book and I'm glad she's back, in some capacity, as a back-up or in Birds Of Prey (another book that survives on the edge of cancellation). She-Hulk's gone through more series than I can name but also don't forget, before he became a "movie star", Iron Man was always one of Marvel's lowest-selling books.

white straight guys
- remeber Extrano, from the New Guardians? He's a good reason not to create a character that walks around saying "In my gay opinion, as a gay man ..." ]]> RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237633#Comment_237633 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237633#Comment_237633 Tue, 11 May 2010 07:15:09 -0700 Jacen RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237636#Comment_237636 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237636#Comment_237636 Tue, 11 May 2010 07:39:23 -0700 joe.distort
and honestly, i dont care enough to want to read something that seems contrived just to feel a little better about the racial mix of my comics.

the tiny little project i am working on now has three main characters. two white guys and a black guy-but now im worried about making the single black character do anything so called 'stereotypical' or whatever because of things like this. unfortunately the comics buying public seems to be mostly white men, its like getting upset there arent more girls at hardcore shows...there seems to be this idea that because of equality ALL people should be into ALL things when in reality some things just skew to particular groups of people and than it sadly gets a little insular.

edit: i would like to specify that i am only really addressing the racial part of this, as i feel (outside of the mainstream big two stuff) that gender isnt really as huge of an issue these days. ]]> RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237643#Comment_237643 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237643#Comment_237643 Tue, 11 May 2010 07:54:54 -0700 Fan Anyhow, long winded preamble out of the way, what are your thoughts on race and gender in comics?

Fwiw the majority (more than 50%) of the web comics that I read regularly have girls as *the* main characters:

* Questionable Content
* Gunnerkrigg Court
* Subnormality
* Dresden Codak
* Out There

They're all written by men, fwiw. Only a small minority (including "Templar, Arizona") of the comics I read are *authored* by girls.

Also, characters in films like the bride (_Kill Bill_) and River Tam (_Serenity_) suggest that people (or boys, at least) can be fans of girls-as-action-heroes without the girls being "stripperific".

I'm kind of a fan of Evey (_V_) too. I don't know about you, but I identified with her at least as much as I did with V.

The strongest (most dominant) characters in FreakAngels are all girls; whereas the boys include a loner (Jack), two baddies (Mark and Luke), a tin foil hat (Karl), and Connor. ]]> RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237646#Comment_237646 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237646#Comment_237646 Tue, 11 May 2010 08:26:53 -0700 JJH And yes, Jessica Jones headlined her own series (sadly cancelled- why?)

Because Bendis finished with that part of her story and moved her over to The Pulse. ]]> RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237650#Comment_237650 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237650#Comment_237650 Tue, 11 May 2010 08:54:01 -0700 MG Chris Sims over at Comics Alliance just did a great piece on "regressive storytelling" and how it often white-washes characters.

Jacen hit a lot of the high points.

One writer I've always found gets female characters and makes them as nuanced as any male, is Brian Wood. DEMO, LOCAL, even his more "mainstream" stuff like DV8 feature female characters who aren't stock, off the shelf damsels/femme fatales. He's also worked with some really talented female artists (Rebekah Isaacs and Becky Cloonan) who draw women to look like humans, not porn stars. ]]> RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237655#Comment_237655 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237655#Comment_237655 Tue, 11 May 2010 09:21:00 -0700 Paladine RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237656#Comment_237656 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237656#Comment_237656 Tue, 11 May 2010 09:31:04 -0700 mister hex
@Paladine - yes, Rucka writes good women. Gail Simone writes good men, without being stereotypical. What they both have in common is that they're looking at the character first, rather than the gender or ethnicity of the character. Warren's work is loaded with examples but here's one - Nathan Kane, hero of OCEAN is black. No one ever mentions it (because it's the future; also, because it's irrelevant). The station chief (forgot her name) is South Asian - again, her race is irrelevant, she's "just" a character in an adventure story - but in the larger world (ie outside of comics) would such a character be seen as a role model for young South Asian girls, based on her competance/kick-assery? ]]> RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237657#Comment_237657 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237657#Comment_237657 Tue, 11 May 2010 09:41:22 -0700 warrenellis Nathan Kane, hero of OCEAN is black. No one ever mentions it (because it's the future; also, because it's irrelevant). The station chief (forgot her name) is South Asian

Iraqi, actually. ]]> RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237658#Comment_237658 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237658#Comment_237658 Tue, 11 May 2010 09:48:13 -0700 Paladine
By the way, the final shot in Ministry of Space still haunts me, where suddenly the whole wonderful alternative future gets a twisted bend. Kind of brought the point home. ]]> RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237662#Comment_237662 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237662#Comment_237662 Tue, 11 May 2010 10:38:40 -0700 IsaacSher
Power Girl was specifically mentioned. Tim Gunn absolutely *loved* her costume, stating that she came across as owning the look, and being strong and self-confident. The conversation then moved into women's visual portrayal in comics overall as hypersexualized. Gunn asserted that the men in comics are just as exaggerated -- skintight costumes outlining bulging muscles, with overdeveloped biceps and pecs instead of D-cup breasts. It was an interesting take on it. He also talked about how he was in favor of outfits and costumes that accentuated gender differences rather than muting them -- that a woman's outfit *should* emphasize her breasts or any other notable physical feature she has, just as a men's tuxedo might nicely frame a strong set of shoulders.

My only disagreement with him is that male costumes probably aren't *quite* as sexually suggestive -- you don't usually see Superman's package straining against his tights the way Wonder Woman's breasts strain against her bustier, for example, but instead the men just seem to have a blank flat space between their legs.

I'm nervous about touching the race issue other than to say that it would be nice if race *wasn't* an issue. Wishful thinking, of course. I'm in a mixed marriage -- a white jewish guy married to a black woman from the south. It would be nice if my eventual children would have some neat mixed-race fictional heroes to look up to and read about, in addition to real life mixed-race figures like President Obama. I'm reminded of the Parkour issue of GLOBAL FREQUENCY; the heroine (an Indian woman) is climbing the giant wheel, and is spotted by a small girl who is also Indian. The little girl says something like, "Look, daddy! Spider-man's a girl and she's just like us!" It stands to reason that a heroic figure who looks something like yourself is going to have more emotional resonance for you -- it's easier to identify with the character, to imagine yourself in that character's place. So increased representation of non-white races in fiction is nice, so long as it doesn't devolve into uncomfortable sterotypes. "Thank goodness you're here, Doctor SuperJew!" "Oy gavalt, I flew all the way over from the bank, and I'm just kaput! Nu, SuperJive Brother, I brought that fried chicken you like so much, and it's kosher!" We don't need any more of that. ]]> RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237663#Comment_237663 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237663#Comment_237663 Tue, 11 May 2010 10:48:31 -0700 warrenellis
I remember when I had done with costumes in THOR, and just had the guy run around shirtless like Ken Branagh in FRANKENSTEIN.

And now Ken Branagh's directing the THOR film. I feel like I did something occult and shamanistic there. ]]> RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237665#Comment_237665 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237665#Comment_237665 Tue, 11 May 2010 11:02:02 -0700 Paladine RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237668#Comment_237668 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237668#Comment_237668 Tue, 11 May 2010 11:09:38 -0700 MG
I love Tim Gunn. There was a point in that interview where he was talking about the red and blue supermen and he sounded almost insulted for the character.

It's worth noting that every Pride event I've been to since I was a teenager has featured some awesomely ripped men in very "accurate" superhero costumes. They always look like fetish gear. This gentleman appears all the time at comic conventions and I can assure you, he has many fans who don't give a damn about Captain America.

But to the point, it's one thing to accentuate the female (or male) form, it's another thing to mutate it into some ungodly photoshop creature. It goes beyond simply making male fantasy creatures into the realm of bad draftsmanship. It's worth noting that Neil Gaiman created a crush object for a whole generation with his anthropomorphic "Death" and it's her brother Dream who goes around half-dressed most of the time. ]]> RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237676#Comment_237676 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237676#Comment_237676 Tue, 11 May 2010 11:35:46 -0700 IsaacSher
There aren't a lot of female characters with the Hulk Overmuscle look -- the only two that come to mind immediately are Stompa of the Female Furies and Anaconda of the Serpent Society, both of whom are obscure minor villains. Or Big Bertha of the Great Lakes Avengers, who's usually played for comedy value, sometimes even darkly comic. ]]> RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237677#Comment_237677 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237677#Comment_237677 Tue, 11 May 2010 11:41:15 -0700 joe.distort RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237682#Comment_237682 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237682#Comment_237682 Tue, 11 May 2010 11:57:56 -0700 IsaacSher
My apologies if I've derailed things -- is there a specific point you'd like us to return to? I'm game. ]]> RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237686#Comment_237686 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237686#Comment_237686 Tue, 11 May 2010 12:09:22 -0700 mister hex
Much as I hate to invoke 'Women In Refridgerators', is there any validity to the premise? That female characters get horribly treated to make them 'gritty' or 'relevant'? Is ANY 'bad' treatment of female characters automatically this?

What about minority characters? Is it possible to have a, say, black villain, who's irredeemably evil without coming off as racist? Come to think of it, are there any great minority villains? Most of Like Cage's rogue's gallery ... are not all that great and that's putting it mildly. Similar for asian vilains, one runs the risk of invoking Yellow Peril-ish storytelling.

Also, the original point about 'legacy heroes' being replaced by 'minority' characters (Firestorm, Atom) who are then eplaced by the original white heroes (this is a Geoff Johns thing mainly and the article takes pains not to tar Johns as a racist, which I'm all but sure he's not).

Or Rob Liefeild thinking Shatterstar is RUINED FOREVER because a subsequent writer made him gay. ]]> RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237691#Comment_237691 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237691#Comment_237691 Tue, 11 May 2010 12:22:59 -0700 JJH Or Rob Liefeild thinking Shatterstar is RUINED FOREVER because a subsequent writer made him gay.

One of the funniest internet flip outs ever... ]]> RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237693#Comment_237693 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237693#Comment_237693 Tue, 11 May 2010 12:28:54 -0700 MG
It's the cart before the horse problem. If someone sets out saying "I want to write a black character" as opposed to "This character is many things, one of them is Black" you get the fingernails on the chalkboard sound.

Making superheroes "gritty" is so old at this point it's beyond the valley of the cliche. What's disturbing with female characters is the cheap use of rape as story point or "character development". It's a creepy way of making comics "relevant" and it often comes off really hamfisted.

Gay characters? God, that's a whole bag of nightmares. Took 4 years to get Batwoman into her own book (God bless JH Williams) and that was as big and splashy a bump as any GLBTQ character I can recall. Apollo and Midnighter were great fun. Marvel's had a weird track record, on the one hand you have the gay couple in "Young Avengers". On the other "Rawhide Kid"...

Speaking as a member of the GLBTQ community, I just don't look to mainstream superhero comics for anything insightful or even reflective when it comes to my people. ]]> RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237697#Comment_237697 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237697#Comment_237697 Tue, 11 May 2010 12:39:43 -0700 joe.distort
ok then, then i totally agree. some people see boobly characters as demeaning, some see empowerment/representation. i just thought it was going to derail into something WAY stupid. ]]> RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237698#Comment_237698 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237698#Comment_237698 Tue, 11 May 2010 12:40:01 -0700 mister hex
Don't forget Northstar, who, when they originally wanted to 'out' him, Editroial said no and they had to MAKE HIM INTO A FAIRY (later ret-conned). Also, he was supposed to have AIDS (he was shown coughing a lot for about six issues - that was supposed to be AIDS but they backed off on THAT too, saying his "fairy" physiology was incompatible with Earth.)

And correct me if I'm wrong but Batwoman's just the lead in Detective. It's not 'HER' book. Once Bruce comes back, what're the odds he takes over the main feature and she becomes a back-up? ]]> RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237702#Comment_237702 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237702#Comment_237702 Tue, 11 May 2010 12:49:15 -0700 Paladine RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237703#Comment_237703 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237703#Comment_237703 Tue, 11 May 2010 12:58:46 -0700 MG
Wow, Northstar...wow...that is just bizarre. Even for superhero comics.

The whole Batwoman thing stems from what I've read and heard about the character's sexuality being something of a touchy subject for DC, especially with all the attention on Batman around that time with the films. There's a SIZABLE gay following for comics of all kinds but I've never seen lesbians get as excited about a mainstream character as they did about Batwoman. But hey, she's getting a book now.

I'm just bloody sick of characters being gay or lesbian being a matter of controversy for anyone. ]]> RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237709#Comment_237709 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237709#Comment_237709 Tue, 11 May 2010 13:16:13 -0700 joe.distort RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237714#Comment_237714 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237714#Comment_237714 Tue, 11 May 2010 13:49:05 -0700 SilentObjector
It is definitely possible to have irredeemably evil non-racist characters. Black Manta, for example.
And uhh... I'm sure there's more! ]]> RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237715#Comment_237715 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237715#Comment_237715 Tue, 11 May 2010 13:55:02 -0700 mosborne
And gender? Two words - Power Girl. One ,ore word - stripperiffic, as in costume. DC seems to be ahead of Marvel in this respect (Batwoman, The Question) while Marvel has ... Girl Comics. (Perhaps I missed it but I haven't seen the second issue of that.)

Apologies if this sounds snarky, but it's 2010. Power Girl no longer sums up any notions of gender in comics. I love the character to bits, but she is no means the zeitgeist. What's always been most interesting about her is that writers almost always use her as a vehicle for their views on the prevailing feminist ideology of the day. Even the stellar run that Palmiotti and Grey are wrapping up on her solo is as much about being a single career driven woman in New York as it is a superhero book. There's a lot more things to say about her good and bad than "she's a woman who still has 'girl' in her name and look there is a boob window on her outfit."

while Marvel has ... Girl Comics. (Perhaps I missed it but I haven't seen the second issue of that.)


Aside from a naff title, that's a great thing. It's part of a company wide initiative that has hugely raised the profile of female characters and creators. Marjorie Liu now has two ongoing titles to her name (Black Widow and the recently announced X-23 spinning out of the Women of Marvel one shot), for one thing. Kathryn Immonen is using Pixie: Strikes Back to bring the X-Men's teen girls (Pixie, X-23, Armor, Blindfold, and Mercury) together for the first time where they have ever said more than two words to each other (on panel) despite living in the same place since before M-Day. And so on.

With that said, here's the best I can do at collecting my thoughts on the issues presented:

Superhero comics should always skew towards the minority to some degree, in my mind. The vast majority of notable superheroes became superheroes because they looked at society and saw something that was inadequate and could not be rectified by conventional, legal means. The X-Men of course are and always will be the penultimate example of a minority group that turned to vigilante action to protect their own and the x-gene McGuffin keeps the race, gender, and class options wide enough to admit appropriation from any marginalized group (which is a great marketing tool).

One of the fundamental flaws of Kick Ass was how whitewashed the whole thing was. Even if the first "real world" superhero was some pantywaist middle class white kid, it certainly wouldn't stay that way. There are Palestinians out there painting themselves blue in imitation of the Na'avi, after all. Wasn't Omar Little West Baltimore's Green Arrow and Shakima Griggs a pre-Question Renee Montoya? If you look at the kind of social conditions or traumas that create the vigilante class of superhero and cross reference that against crime statistics in the real world, I seriously doubt that billionaire playboys would be one of the most affected demographics.

You don't have to be a member of a given minority group to write them well, you just have to be a good writer with a sensitive ear. Greg Rucka's work on Detective Comics one of the better examples. In the same week that the flasback issue where Kate was discharged from the army for homosexual conduct hit the stands, lesbian news and culture site Autostraddle was devoting a great deal of it's front page to DADT related news stories. There's no excuse for poor characterization of any demographic when we live in an era characterized by ubiquitous access to information. In most cases, for every genderfail and racefail instance you can come up with in mainstream superhero comics, you can find a brilliant example of understated storytelling.

Of course when I say "genderfail," I mean cisgender victims of sexism. The state of non-normative gender expression is pretty fucking terrible relative to what the world looks like when you step out your front door. The fact that I identify as transgender may colour my perspective, but the idea of presenting superheroes as some kind of ur-man/woman is ludicrous and out of step with everyone but baby boomers, if that. For years, some of my favourite characters in comics have always been shapeshifters because they could do what I couldn't; instantly pass as the other gender without all the muss and fuss. Except that with few exceptions, most shapeshifters are written from the perspective of having one concrete gender identity and switching to the other for convenience or subterfuge. Twice in recent history, Marvel had the opportunity to step forward and do some really progressive, mind bending things with their shapeshifters and balked both times.

At one time Chris Claremont brought the idea to Marvel that he wanted to reveal who Nightcrawler's father was, one of the final surviving mysteries of the long and tangled family trees of the children of the atom. He intended to subvert the long held assumption that Mystique was his biological mother by revealing that she was in fact Kurt's biological father and that Destiny was his mother. Instead, Marvel editorial decided that it would be preferable if Kurt's father was the devil (sort of).

I'm more disappointed than upset about that one, but Joss Whedon's handling of Karolina Dean and Xavin is probably one of the most offensive things I've ever read. Xavin was a Skrull who generally presented as male until he was engaged by pre-arrangement to Karolina, a recently out lesbian. At first Xavin said that it wasn't a problem because he could just shift to a female form for her. However he continued to present as male occasionally until it became a point of tension in the relationship. Whedon dealt with this when he came onto the title by dismissing it. Xavin is now all femme all the time. This is a title with a relatively high amount of teen readers. What kind of message is that sending to trans youth or lesbians who present themselves as anything less than the femmiest of the femme? It's a slap in the face. ]]> RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237718#Comment_237718 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237718#Comment_237718 Tue, 11 May 2010 14:08:37 -0700 gzapata RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237719#Comment_237719 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237719#Comment_237719 Tue, 11 May 2010 14:10:57 -0700 mosborne
Speaking as a member of the GLBTQ community, I just don't look to mainstream superhero comics for anything insightful or even reflective when it comes to my people.

Of course not, but there's no reason that we shouldn't hope and strive for a situation where you could. ]]> RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237720#Comment_237720 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237720#Comment_237720 Tue, 11 May 2010 14:13:12 -0700 JJH RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237721#Comment_237721 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237721#Comment_237721 Tue, 11 May 2010 14:13:32 -0700 RenThing RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237722#Comment_237722 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237722#Comment_237722 Tue, 11 May 2010 14:14:05 -0700 Paladine RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237726#Comment_237726 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237726#Comment_237726 Tue, 11 May 2010 14:26:54 -0700 IsaacSher RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237727#Comment_237727 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237727#Comment_237727 Tue, 11 May 2010 14:28:30 -0700 RenThing
Wow, ok, I'll have to go find that. ]]> RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237732#Comment_237732 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237732#Comment_237732 Tue, 11 May 2010 14:38:48 -0700 Darkest 10 Comic book Heroines we want in Movies ]]> RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237737#Comment_237737 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237737#Comment_237737 Tue, 11 May 2010 15:11:39 -0700 warrenellis What kind of message is that sending to trans youth or lesbians who present themselves as anything less than the femmiest of the femme? It's a slap in the face.


I wonder when everyone decided that trans youth or lesbians were that dumb? Just blank slates with no cultural sophistication at all. Never once thinking "wow, guess Whedon wasn't interested in that plotline," and going straight to "oh shit the Man doesn't want us to be TG, that fucker."

Not having been aware of what you were talking about, I googled, and found this on AfterEllen:

Possibly the poorest plotted element of The Runaways has been the marriage of Karolina Dean to Xavin. For those not familiar with the series, Karolina Dean is a lesbian character who is one of a group of crimefighting teens. Shortly after it is revealed that she is in love with Nico, the series conveniently has her leave planet earth because she is betrothed to Xavin, a Skrull. Xavin appears in the form of a man but when Karolina reveals she's gay, Xavin shapeshifts into a woman. Later Karolina and Xavin join back up with the Runaways. Getting beyond the arranged marriage aspect (which is extremely disturbing and in poor taste in itself), Xavin stays in male form quite a bit (apparently because Xavin needs to be for battle...ummm okay). In a series called Civil War, Xavin is always in male form.

Joss Whedon recently cleaned up these problems smartly repairing the damage done. In issue # 29, it is revealed that when not focused enough to stay in a shape, Xavin's non-shifting gender is female. Nice save by Whedon who also has Xavin in female form through most of his 6 issues.


The title of the article is Is Terry Moore going to heterosexualize Karolina Dean?. ]]> RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237739#Comment_237739 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237739#Comment_237739 Tue, 11 May 2010 15:19:05 -0700 warrenellis
The version of comics that's in your head? Is not necessarily the one everyone else is reading.

Understand that I am utterly supportive of your needs and goals, but when you open up the throttle on something that, perhaps, not everybody else has read in the same way and a little superhero comic is suddenly ranked with De Sade and Mein Kampf? That's when the FAIL klaxon goes off here at Ellis Imperialist Heteronormative Patriarchy Castle.

Please bear that in mind. ]]> RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237740#Comment_237740 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237740#Comment_237740 Tue, 11 May 2010 15:28:35 -0700 Paul Sizer RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237751#Comment_237751 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237751#Comment_237751 Tue, 11 May 2010 16:45:55 -0700 warrenellis 10 Comic book Heroines we want in Movies

And there's my Jenny at number 2. ]]> RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237752#Comment_237752 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237752#Comment_237752 Tue, 11 May 2010 16:50:08 -0700 MG
I wonder when everyone decided that trans youth or lesbians were that dumb?

Thank you for saying that. GLBTQ people, the sane ones at least, don't float in some insult void waiting for a chance to be slighted by whatever comes along. Most of us kind of shrug off the more ridiculous stuff (13 year olds yelling 'gay' or some Swish in a big-budget action movie for guys who like special effect things hitting each other) as just culture lag.

The Runaways thing for instance, I thought that was really well done actually. It's a young adult comic. It showed people loving each other with gender fluidity, struggling with people's perceptions of that love too. That's good stuff in a book about teenager super-people. ]]> RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237765#Comment_237765 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237765#Comment_237765 Tue, 11 May 2010 18:42:37 -0700 IsaacSher
(Fair enough -- my bad!) ]]> RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237774#Comment_237774 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237774#Comment_237774 Tue, 11 May 2010 19:56:48 -0700 ebullientsoul Re: Batwoman/Question/Mr. Rucka

How opposed DC editorial was to Batwoman being on their flagship book (the DC of DC comics) remains to be seen. Rucka says in public that was a decision by everyone to launch Batwoman at the least crowded time possible. He could be lying. I don't know. Plus, if the editorial interference consisted of "shit is so cash, Kate needs her own ongoing", is that bad? That's not rhetorical, by the way, that's an honest question.


Other points:

Might Jamie Reyes as the Blue Beetle ongoing be more useful for discussion? Or Ms. Marvel? Or Psylocke? Or Brother Voodoo?

Also: To what extent, do I as a reader, ought I to buy a non-WASPy book to vote intelligently with my dollar? ]]> RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237786#Comment_237786 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237786#Comment_237786 Tue, 11 May 2010 21:27:09 -0700 oldhat RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237787#Comment_237787 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237787#Comment_237787 Tue, 11 May 2010 21:41:08 -0700 David Matthew
I think the paucity of female and/or minority characters in comics is partially momentum: introducing new characters is risky and difficult, and most existing ones are already white and male. Most comics creators and editors and publishers, who are also predominantly (but not exclusively) white and male, and are writing for white males, just don't see the numbers as working. ]]> RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237790#Comment_237790 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237790#Comment_237790 Tue, 11 May 2010 22:16:05 -0700 SteadyUP fictional nonhuman race. Being shapeshifters, Skrulls might not even have sexual orientations as we understand them - would that somehow damage the perception of the LGBT community if so? ]]> RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237800#Comment_237800 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237800#Comment_237800 Wed, 12 May 2010 01:05:45 -0700 James Cunningham
Aliens in comics are bumpy-faced humans with nice tech. They're at best a different culture rather than a different race. Unless Matt Howarth gets hired on by Marvel/DC sometime soon, I hate to say that I don't expect that to change any time soon. So, sadly, aliens are going to have the same gender roles we do. Blah. ]]> RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237823#Comment_237823 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237823#Comment_237823 Wed, 12 May 2010 06:05:44 -0700 mister hex
@James Cunningham -
The other problem with introducing new characters is that any writer doing that is giving away their creations.

True. Tony Isabella still owns (part of?) Black Lightning, due to the deal he had when he created him, which is why he never appeared on Super Friends (Black Vulcan was his stand-in) and was only used on JLU briefly and without dialogue, IIRC. ]]> RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237831#Comment_237831 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237831#Comment_237831 Wed, 12 May 2010 06:40:31 -0700 JJH Also: To what extent, do I as a reader, ought I to buy a non-WASPy book to vote intelligently with my dollar?

Totally. Brilliant. Ultimately, that's the most power you have when it comes to determining/"changing" the market. ]]> RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237870#Comment_237870 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237870#Comment_237870 Wed, 12 May 2010 10:45:26 -0700 James Puckett Aliens books during the 1990s. They had a whole string of great Ellen Ripley inspired women who were intelligent, took care of themselves, were strong leaders, etc.. The characters rarely felt like they were created to be different or push the boundaries of women in comics. The authors just treated them like normal women, as if that were just the most natural way for women in comics to appear, none of them had to be gay or sassy or magical witches, or anything but just women who ended up dealing with whatever came along. ]]> RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237874#Comment_237874 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237874#Comment_237874 Wed, 12 May 2010 11:31:08 -0700 IsaacSher
Now, it'll be interesting to see how much traction that has -- will we see a media push for Doctor Voodoo, Sorcerer Supreme, or will Doctor Strange still be the go-to Marvel Magic Hero Guy? ]]> RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237876#Comment_237876 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237876#Comment_237876 Wed, 12 May 2010 11:46:19 -0700 MG Shamrock can teach us about modern Irish culture. But as Warren pointed out above, these are legacy characters. A quick wiki check shows the good Brother/Doctor's creation being right smack in the 1970's, perfect timing.

Reworking the character to make it fit with a modern audience is not an enviable task and it could end up being something interesting. I guess I'm kind of biased because I've been fascinated with Voudon culture for ages and seeing it reduced to a sketch of a cartoon is kind of sad. Hell, Papa Midnight in Ennis' run in Hellblazer was more on the ball than what I've seen of this character. ]]> RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237887#Comment_237887 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237887#Comment_237887 Wed, 12 May 2010 13:57:15 -0700 Jon Wake Hell, I'm writing a comic with set in a Matriarchal African analog. People are people-- no matter where you go or what they dress like, everyone pretty much acts the same.
Virtuoso ]]> RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237974#Comment_237974 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=237974#Comment_237974 Thu, 13 May 2010 06:10:09 -0700 mister hex
Writers put themselves into other people's heads. I don't know what it's like to be a homeless teenager but I could write a story about it (and hopefully it wouldn't be terrible) because I've known people who were homeless teenagers, I could do research, I could LEARN and share what I've learned, right? Right. That's called writing.

On another note ... I've been trying to think of Great Black Super-Villains and Black Manta is about all I can come up with. And he's an Aquaman villain, so your mileage may vary on actually how great he is. ]]> RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=238029#Comment_238029 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=238029#Comment_238029 Thu, 13 May 2010 11:03:32 -0700 gzapata RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=238042#Comment_238042 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=238042#Comment_238042 Thu, 13 May 2010 12:47:06 -0700 warrenellis I have yet to find a hispanic character that was as well written as spiderman 2099 by peter david.

You mean just in superhero comics, right? I mean, even then, you're stretching... but you do mean just superhero comics, yes? ]]> RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=238046#Comment_238046 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=238046#Comment_238046 Thu, 13 May 2010 13:21:23 -0700 gzapata RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=238091#Comment_238091 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=238091#Comment_238091 Thu, 13 May 2010 22:43:15 -0700 COOP
Introducing more lesbian Inuits who shoot laser beams out of their eyes won't fix the weak scripts and stupid event-mongering. ]]> RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=238094#Comment_238094 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=238094#Comment_238094 Thu, 13 May 2010 23:24:21 -0700 MG
Superman/Batman were mid-twentieth century archetypes. The immigrant coming struggle and do go, the fallen monied scion. Old money could empathize with Bruce Wayne, his family destroyed, using his fortune to better the world (through gadgets and punching). New immigrants could see Superman as an idol. He stood for the very best in his new nation, or at least the best platitudes.

Marvel Comics in the 60's adds more archetypes. The noble scientist whose experiment goes out of control. The scarred "freak hero". The mutant, analogue for a whole host of oppressed classes (at the time African-American, but by turns women, Latinos and now GLBTQ people).

The 70's and 80's saw some, largely failed, attempts to create spaces for women and "minorities". You end up with the problematic legacy properties of today.

I'm talking in broadstrokes here obviously, these archetypes and ideas run back to the cave in some way or another, but in comics, in mainstream super-heroing comics which used to reach an audience of millions, and now as IP reaches an audience of billions, these were big ideas about how Americans defined themselves. Pulp identities, a reflection and in some ways, a definition of the era.

So what does it say when you here the thin, high piercing shriek of the fanboy when THE NEW gets in the comics. The homogenous, white, WASP America of 1939 gave you a choice between two white boys. The 60's have you a host of identities, but still mainly white. 70's and 80's you have "Black" and "She" in front of the character's name and call it a day.

So when you hear about a "return to classic characters" or the latest reboot/recycle/rehash. It seems like more often than not you're getting a nice white-washing. A reset to a time that, to the very diverse world of today feels more and more dates. Clean-cut white lantern-jaw dudes being all awesome in a white man's world when the President and First Lady are athletic, brillliant African-Americans just feels...off.

Total anecdotal case in point: I work with African-American kids in one of the poorest neighborhoods in Chicago. They ALL saw Iron Man last week. You know who they loved in that movie?

]]> RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=238097#Comment_238097 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=238097#Comment_238097 Fri, 14 May 2010 00:00:15 -0700 Winterman
For the vast majority of their history American superhero comics, what most people mean when they say comic books, have been written by straight white males for an audience they deemed to be exclusively composed of straight white males. During that same time lots of folks like me, that is to say people who are not straight white males, have had to eat a lot of negative depictions of us or absorb our absence from the so-called mainstream of super-heroics. A small thing, to be sure, in the big scheme. Almost microscopic. Unless you're twelve.

Some may find the discussion of this silly but, as wavefronts of popular culture (and thus popular opinion) the dearth of anything other than straight white males as the presumed arbiters of Good and Cool is being and, I think, should be construed as both negative and, on some level, corruptive by more people than one might think.

While their counterparts in the film, television and prose publishing worlds have moved forward on the inclusion front with everything from simple increased diversity in their product to the development of entire niche-oriented versions of that product, American superhero comics have lagged well behind. This isn't a matter of opinion but of observable, demonstrable fact. This fact has produced various backlashes, from individual indie books like MENTHU all the way up to entire companies devoted to the attempt to fill that niche, like MILESTONE.

The indie comics world (a sort of misnomer as it seems to sometimes include companies like DARK HORSE and IMAGE) seems to have joined the rest of the entertainment world in terms of presenting a more diverse product while the so-called Big Two, the core of the American comic book industry, have lagged and lagged and lagged. It's difficult to see that as anything other than willful at this point.

Granted MARVEL is well out in front of DC in terms of diverse characters created but that's not hard when DC has, repeatedly, over decades, taken ninety steps back for every attempt at a step forward. For me, at least, this current obsession with the so-called Silver Age of DC comics and the rebooting of the cardboard cutout "characters" of that bygone time is one regression too many.

I've had enough of even talking about this crap, year after year, character after character, "crisis" after crisis.

I see that DC, at least, simply does not give a damn about the rest of us. Whether this is due to some form of institutional or active racism or simply an incredibly advanced case of tin ear is, at this juncture, immaterial. The effect is the same and it has been the same for decades.

People talk about laying blame, pointing fingers at the fans for their supposed secret racism or at the companies for, at the very least, catering to that racism but, again, I'm past caring anymore.

Unlike a lot of those folks, I'm done. Had it. Out.

I'm done hoping that these people who, like me, seem to delight in telling simple stories about a world where Good triumphs over easily-defined Evil will also believe that part of that triumph must be to defeat even the unintentional impression that they are promoting a Whites First, Straights First agenda. Because, from where I and a lot of folks sit, they are.

It doesn't amount to much, my putting down DC comics for good. It doesn't really amount to anything, really, except to me.

But there's a 12 year old inside me that I have always thought sustained me a little when things were not good in the real world and he did that, in part, because of the values that were reinforced by those simple tales of Good vs Evil. He's diminished a bit now, just a little blurrier around the edges than I find comfortable. I don't like it.

But there's nothing much to be done except to walk away.

Have fun with the Brightest Day. ]]> RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=238098#Comment_238098 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=238098#Comment_238098 Fri, 14 May 2010 00:15:48 -0700 MG
I posted a link upthread a bit about the sort of regressive racial backtracking that all these "reboots" seem to engender, similar to what you're getting at really.

It's all weird to me because I came into comics reading Sandman (the first comic I ever purchased was Sandman #50, which called "Ramadan" and tells the dream story of the war-torn city of Baghdad) and Hellblazer and Preacher. I only started picking up any super-hero stuff because writers like Warren and Grant Morrison were going there in the late 90's/00's.

Coming to superhero comics as an adult it's hard not to see how painfully white, straight and conservative it all seems. SERIOUS SUPERHEROS have plotlines about rape and child abuse that make the average episode of Law and Order: Special Rapists Unit look like The Wire.

But great writers tell great stories. Matt Fraction has written a character named Pepper Potts (PEPPER...POTTS) as a believable female character in Iron Man. ]]> RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=238171#Comment_238171 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=238171#Comment_238171 Fri, 14 May 2010 08:20:14 -0700 warrenellis Some may find the discussion of this silly but, as wavefronts of popular culture (and thus popular opinion) the dearth of anything other than straight white males as the presumed arbiters of Good and Cool is being and, I think, should be construed as both negative and, on some level, corruptive by more people than one might think.

Not much in this to disagree with, is there? ]]> RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=238172#Comment_238172 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=238172#Comment_238172 Fri, 14 May 2010 08:24:07 -0700 COOP @Coop-

Calling out the Big Two for their lack of sensitivity by calling them "retarded" was... well, I suppose just typing that out here kind of highlights it, huh?

This board is the last place I expected PC hyper-sensitivity - guess I'll have to rethink that in future.

In fact, I wasn't calling them out for their lack of sensitivity, I was calling them out for making crap, lots and lots of crap. My point was that filling minority superhero quotas doesn't make the stories better or the art less headache-inducing. It's more like changing radio stations as your car drives off a cliff.

Suggestion - next time, READ what I wrote, instead of quickly scanning for words and phrases you can become self-righteously indignant about.

Or you could go one of the other threads and complain about Mr. Ellis' offensive use of the derogatory term "moon people"... ]]> RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=238176#Comment_238176 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=238176#Comment_238176 Fri, 14 May 2010 08:36:29 -0700 JJH RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=238178#Comment_238178 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=238178#Comment_238178 Fri, 14 May 2010 08:36:47 -0700 warrenellis
Also, fuck those moon people. ]]> RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=238181#Comment_238181 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=238181#Comment_238181 Fri, 14 May 2010 08:41:30 -0700 COOP No problem.

Some of my best friends are moon people. ]]> RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=238184#Comment_238184 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=238184#Comment_238184 Fri, 14 May 2010 08:48:59 -0700 COOP RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=238185#Comment_238185 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=238185#Comment_238185 Fri, 14 May 2010 08:50:46 -0700 COOP RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=238189#Comment_238189 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=238189#Comment_238189 Fri, 14 May 2010 09:00:37 -0700 RenThing
I think your complaint about the quality of the scripts, while not unfair, is missing the point of the post, honestly.

While adding more characters of minority status or different sexuality may not improve the quality that you're talking about, it may at least make such people more visible to people reading comics and make people who identify with such characters feel more included in the industry and feel more represented it.

The complaints, I think, are apples and oranges. ]]> RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=238195#Comment_238195 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=238195#Comment_238195 Fri, 14 May 2010 09:14:39 -0700 COOP
it may at least make such people more visible to people reading comics and make people who identify with such characters feel more included in the industry and feel more represented it.


See, I would be more concerned that there are so few people of different races and ethnic/cultural/sexual backgrounds actually WORKING in comics, drawing and writing the fucking things. Fixing that would go a lot further towards allowing different points of view than making this or that superhero this or that minority. ]]> RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=238197#Comment_238197 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=238197#Comment_238197 Fri, 14 May 2010 09:17:44 -0700 COOP
The age of passive consumption of media is long gone. Get to drawing! ]]> RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=238201#Comment_238201 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=238201#Comment_238201 Fri, 14 May 2010 09:33:13 -0700 joe.distort And furthermore, if you are really upset that there isn't a comic that represents your particular interest, why not go make one yourself?

i like this, and not in some confrontational way. i think its very valid. ]]> RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=238202#Comment_238202 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=238202#Comment_238202 Fri, 14 May 2010 09:33:57 -0700 warrenellis
However, let's turn the temperature down a bit now, people. ]]> RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=238205#Comment_238205 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=238205#Comment_238205 Fri, 14 May 2010 09:40:50 -0700 COOP
I would like to add that I have absolutely zero problem with shaking up the white guy status quo of comics at all, please go for it - just do it in a way that is fun and entertaining, with no pandering, and hopefully drawn by someone who can actually knows how to draw a bit. ]]> RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=238206#Comment_238206 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=238206#Comment_238206 Fri, 14 May 2010 09:50:19 -0700 Winterman @coop - And furthermore, if you are really upset that there isn't a comic that represents your particular interest, why not go make one yourself?

The age of passive consumption of media is long gone.

Quiet as it's kept, quite a few of us do just that.

Here are some names to look up:

Mike Sales
Robert Roach
Dale Wilson
Brandon Easton
Korby Marks
Andre Owens
Mshindo
Blake Chen
Eliseu Gouveia

http://www.myspace.com/jaycenwise
Genre 19.com
Shadowlawonline.com


These are just the ones I thought of first. We're out here. Lots and lots of us. And some of us kick ass. ]]> RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=238216#Comment_238216 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=238216#Comment_238216 Fri, 14 May 2010 10:12:55 -0700 IsaacSher
Sorry, couldn't resist.

Here's something I'm wondering. The MILESTONE books were originally started as a direct response to the white-male-dominated comic industry, an organized "well, let's make our own then" effort. It was successful for a little while, and even led to the rather well done "Static Shock" tv show, but then it stalled. It got a small kick recently with the Milestone cast showing up in JLA, but I haven't heard of any of those characters getting used since, much less any books starring them coming out. Maybe Static's showing up in Teen Titans? I could be wrong.

I wonder if it's time for someone to take another crack at it? Start from scratch, create a set of new creator-owned characters with a heavy emphasis on ethnic/social/sexual diversity. Maybe if it's handled well, it could work. Perhaps lessons could be learned from Milestone's past. Maybe someone would want to try it in a manga-esque format, straddling the line between bookstore manga shoppers and comic-store shoppers, or do some other new thing with it to reflect current marketing trends.

If DC and Marvel are regressing, maybe if people had a chance to vote with their feet by buying a specific alternative, they would? "Ah, but who will bell the cat?" Not a perfect or easy idea, I grant. ]]> RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=238217#Comment_238217 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=238217#Comment_238217 Fri, 14 May 2010 10:17:23 -0700 joe.distort RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=238220#Comment_238220 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=238220#Comment_238220 Fri, 14 May 2010 10:21:37 -0700 IsaacSher
If I wanted a horrific soapbox of a comic, I'd go read "Zwanna, Son of Zulu", which I still own a copy of as a gleeful reminder of just how weird and bad things can get. ]]> RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=238265#Comment_238265 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=238265#Comment_238265 Fri, 14 May 2010 12:32:48 -0700 alveright



Also a bit weird to comments from a couple of people hinting, or saying outright, that many White Male Creators feel uncomfortable writing non-White Male Characters, and then not decrying such creators here publicly. Since when do we accept substandard portrayals of White Males from non-White Male Creators? That's right. We don't. Any failure to create a fully dimensional character is exactly that. Those creators who can't immerse themselves in their non-White Male Characters the way they do their White Male ones -- who fail to understand them inside and out -- those creators shouldn't be in work because their work shouldn't be bought. Thankfully, I can't think of any currently-major creators at the Big Two who suffer from such grandiose psychological limitations.

And yeah, we're talking about comics as a medium, not a genre or subgenre; saying things like, "comics are filled with overwhelmingly large numbers of White People, despite efforts to the contrary, by consequence of being read by overwhelmingly large numbers of White People," is insane. Comics aren't the White Male equivalent of Blacksploitation. They can Do Anything and Be Anything, remember.

Finally, to the rampant cynicism flying about, let's maybe think, for a minute or two, about the progress made so far, the very rapid progress comics have made since the eighties. Perhaps you don't think there's been enough, that's fine and reasonable, but don't deny the rapid progress by making pronouncements to say you've finally had enough, it's all gotten to be too much, that things are always going to be this way, because the industry is more salubrious than it's ever been on that score. You know it, and you'll hate me for this, but because of factors like the increasing appreciation of diversity in both creators and characters, and Political Correctness, things can -- *please cringe with optimistic awkwardness now* -- only get better. ]]> RACE AND GENDER IN COMICS http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=238270#Comment_238270 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8208&Focus=238270#Comment_238270 Fri, 14 May 2010 12:43:37 -0700 warrenellis