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      CommentAuthorPaul Sizer
    • CommentTimeMay 11th 2010
     (8208.41)
    Good on you, Warren. Good discussion points here, but racefail/genderfail threads historically have a deadly spin/decay/crash evolution attached, even with the best of intentions. It's why I kept my distance during the first "storm" a while back.
  1.  (8208.42)
    10 Comic book Heroines we want in Movies

    And there's my Jenny at number 2.
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      CommentAuthorMG
    • CommentTimeMay 11th 2010
     (8208.43)
    @warrenellis

    I wonder when everyone decided that trans youth or lesbians were that dumb?

    Thank you for saying that. GLBTQ people, the sane ones at least, don't float in some insult void waiting for a chance to be slighted by whatever comes along. Most of us kind of shrug off the more ridiculous stuff (13 year olds yelling 'gay' or some Swish in a big-budget action movie for guys who like special effect things hitting each other) as just culture lag.

    The Runaways thing for instance, I thought that was really well done actually. It's a young adult comic. It showed people loving each other with gender fluidity, struggling with people's perceptions of that love too. That's good stuff in a book about teenager super-people.
    • CommentAuthorIsaacSher
    • CommentTimeMay 11th 2010 edited
     (8208.44)
    EDITED BY WARREN: Come on. SO off topic. Let's give the thread a chance.

    (Fair enough -- my bad!)
  2.  (8208.45)
    Re: Batwoman/Question/Mr. Rucka

    How opposed DC editorial was to Batwoman being on their flagship book (the DC of DC comics) remains to be seen. Rucka says in public that was a decision by everyone to launch Batwoman at the least crowded time possible. He could be lying. I don't know. Plus, if the editorial interference consisted of "shit is so cash, Kate needs her own ongoing", is that bad? That's not rhetorical, by the way, that's an honest question.


    Other points:

    Might Jamie Reyes as the Blue Beetle ongoing be more useful for discussion? Or Ms. Marvel? Or Psylocke? Or Brother Voodoo?

    Also: To what extent, do I as a reader, ought I to buy a non-WASPy book to vote intelligently with my dollar?
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      CommentAuthoroldhat
    • CommentTimeMay 11th 2010
     (8208.46)
    Reading The Invisibles run for the first time. while reading this thread, Lord Fanny comes to mind. Wonderful character. And christ, back when I was a teenager I loved Channon Yarrow & Yelena Rossini (Spider's Filthy Assistants") because, well, they were one of the first female characters I saw in comics at the time that didn't just stupidly go along with whatever the protagonist wanted to do. They questioned him, called him an asshole, threw cigarettes at him...they did practical things under the circumstances.
  3.  (8208.47)
    Reading the EW list... I didn't know Jenny Sparks was a bisexual. Doesn't particularly *surprise* me, as it seems in-line with her character, but... did I just miss something in The Authority? Or was it covered in Stormwatch, which I haven't read?

    I think the paucity of female and/or minority characters in comics is partially momentum: introducing new characters is risky and difficult, and most existing ones are already white and male. Most comics creators and editors and publishers, who are also predominantly (but not exclusively) white and male, and are writing for white males, just don't see the numbers as working.
    • CommentAuthorSteadyUP
    • CommentTimeMay 11th 2010 edited
     (8208.48)
    Regarding the AfterEllen bit, I don't know what's more unfortunate - calling it "poor taste" to depict a totally alien culture, one which isn't even particularly protagonistic, as having elements that we in reality consider to be bad, or anyone making value judgements of any kind about sexuality or gender identity issues amongst members of a fictional nonhuman race. Being shapeshifters, Skrulls might not even have sexual orientations as we understand them - would that somehow damage the perception of the LGBT community if so?
  4.  (8208.49)
    The other problem with introducing new characters is that any writer doing that is giving away their creations. Retrofitting an old character that's most likely going to be white/male (barring redoing a supervillain, of course, and 90% of them fit the white/male category too) to play with sexual orientation just makes more sense than creating someone new.

    Aliens in comics are bumpy-faced humans with nice tech. They're at best a different culture rather than a different race. Unless Matt Howarth gets hired on by Marvel/DC sometime soon, I hate to say that I don't expect that to change any time soon. So, sadly, aliens are going to have the same gender roles we do. Blah.
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      CommentAuthormister hex
    • CommentTimeMay 12th 2010
     (8208.50)
    @ David Matthew - Jenny Sparks is bisexual in that she's 100 years old and will shag anything if it seems like it'll be good for a laugh. Again, this is part of her character, not the whole thing. (She was married to a blue alien from another dimension, I imagine she's quite open-minded.)

    @James Cunningham -
    The other problem with introducing new characters is that any writer doing that is giving away their creations.

    True. Tony Isabella still owns (part of?) Black Lightning, due to the deal he had when he created him, which is why he never appeared on Super Friends (Black Vulcan was his stand-in) and was only used on JLU briefly and without dialogue, IIRC.
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      CommentAuthorJJH
    • CommentTimeMay 12th 2010
     (8208.51)
    Also: To what extent, do I as a reader, ought I to buy a non-WASPy book to vote intelligently with my dollar?


    Totally. Brilliant. Ultimately, that's the most power you have when it comes to determining/"changing" the market.
  5.  (8208.52)
    There were some really incredible female characters in Dark Horse Aliens books during the 1990s. They had a whole string of great Ellen Ripley inspired women who were intelligent, took care of themselves, were strong leaders, etc.. The characters rarely felt like they were created to be different or push the boundaries of women in comics. The authors just treated them like normal women, as if that were just the most natural way for women in comics to appear, none of them had to be gay or sassy or magical witches, or anything but just women who ended up dealing with whatever came along.
    • CommentAuthorIsaacSher
    • CommentTimeMay 12th 2010
     (8208.53)
    Interesting that you mention Brother Voodoo -- I read recently that he's now referred to as DOCTOR Voodoo, having been chosen as the new Sorcerer Supreme after Doctor Strange stepped down from the role. He's even got the red cloak and Eye amulet.

    Now, it'll be interesting to see how much traction that has -- will we see a media push for Doctor Voodoo, Sorcerer Supreme, or will Doctor Strange still be the go-to Marvel Magic Hero Guy?
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      CommentAuthorMG
    • CommentTimeMay 12th 2010
     (8208.54)
    Brother/Doctor/Whatever, the guy has about as much to do with Voudon as Shamrock can teach us about modern Irish culture. But as Warren pointed out above, these are legacy characters. A quick wiki check shows the good Brother/Doctor's creation being right smack in the 1970's, perfect timing.

    Reworking the character to make it fit with a modern audience is not an enviable task and it could end up being something interesting. I guess I'm kind of biased because I've been fascinated with Voudon culture for ages and seeing it reduced to a sketch of a cartoon is kind of sad. Hell, Papa Midnight in Ennis' run in Hellblazer was more on the ball than what I've seen of this character.
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      CommentAuthorJon Wake
    • CommentTimeMay 12th 2010
     (8208.55)
    Appropriation of voice is an idiotic concept. Anytime a writer writes anything that isn't an autobiographical story, they're 'appropriating voice'. It's pretty much the job description.
    Hell, I'm writing a comic with set in a Matriarchal African analog. People are people-- no matter where you go or what they dress like, everyone pretty much acts the same.
    Virtuoso
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      CommentAuthormister hex
    • CommentTimeMay 13th 2010
     (8208.56)
    @Jon Wake - I agree it's idiotic (appropriation of voice) but there was a fairly big controversy in Canada about it some years back. A group of writers trying to make a name for themselves by decrying another group of writers. Incestuous internicine bullshit. Then again, people in Canada protested the musical Showboat as racist when it sincerely isn't.

    Writers put themselves into other people's heads. I don't know what it's like to be a homeless teenager but I could write a story about it (and hopefully it wouldn't be terrible) because I've known people who were homeless teenagers, I could do research, I could LEARN and share what I've learned, right? Right. That's called writing.

    On another note ... I've been trying to think of Great Black Super-Villains and Black Manta is about all I can come up with. And he's an Aquaman villain, so your mileage may vary on actually how great he is.
    • CommentAuthorgzapata
    • CommentTimeMay 13th 2010
     (8208.57)
    The problem I think writers of minority characters is that they write them as if their ethnicity is the focal point. I have yet to find a hispanic character that was as well written as spiderman 2099 by peter david. If you attempt to tell someone who he is you wouldn't start first with him being hispanic (I know he's only half) but if you actually go into him as a character, you see his costume was made from an old day of the dead costume he used, you'd find his mother being an important part of his life and a bunch of other little things like maybe his annoyance of being called mike when his name is miguel. All important aspects but not the focus of who he is.
  6.  (8208.58)
    I have yet to find a hispanic character that was as well written as spiderman 2099 by peter david.

    You mean just in superhero comics, right? I mean, even then, you're stretching... but you do mean just superhero comics, yes?
    • CommentAuthorgzapata
    • CommentTimeMay 13th 2010
     (8208.59)
    @warrenellis- word slippage, Yeah I simply meant super heroes
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      CommentAuthorCOOP
    • CommentTimeMay 13th 2010
     (8208.60)
    Considering all the ways in which mainstream comics are conservative/timid/hidebound/UTTERLY RETARDED, complaining that there aren't enough minorities or homosexuals running around in spandex punching each other seems a bit silly.

    Introducing more lesbian Inuits who shoot laser beams out of their eyes won't fix the weak scripts and stupid event-mongering.