Whitechapel - The Return of the Western

The Return of the Western

Adam Violent — Sat, 15 May 2010 22:06:38 -0700

It's been building for a while. Maybe it hasn't really ever left, but you have to admit the American Western film is making something of a comeback. I find it very interesting that, all around the same time, we have two critically-acclaimed Western comics being produced, a number of well-received films, and now Rockstar is essentially following up Grand Theft Auto IV with Red Dead Redemption.

Plus, I'm sure one of the big blockbusters next year will be Cowboys & Aliens, which has Jon Favreau, Robert Downey, Jr., and even Harrison Ford all attached, among others.

So what brought this on? Was it just "its turn," like the vampire/zombie revivals? Obviously it's a fascinating time but there was a day when the Western was just friggin exhausted, especially in film.

I wonder if, in the middle of this possible successful genre comeback, Deadwood would have continued (and concluded properly) if it happened more recently.

Probably not. David Milch is kind of a dick.

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Rootfireember — Sat, 15 May 2010 22:20:52 -0700

I think Milch kinda brought back the idea of the old west into popular culture, and after his other serries failed, ended up loosing the confidence to go back and tackle Deadwood again.

That being said, the last attempt at a 'western' I saw was Appaloosa, which ...I thought was horrid, with a plot I could peg from 5mn in, horrible acting and characterization, and bad sound design (I swear everything sounded like it was on a sound stage, and heels clicking on cement are not the same sound you want to use for a lady walking across a dusty road); though I'm willing to admit the sound issues may have been due to something the theater did or didn't do.

3:10 to yuma was decent, and I felt like seeing the original after it.

To me it seems that westerns come and go in cycles. I remember them being popular as a kid, fading out to semi obscurity, fading in for a bit, then out until the past few years where they have been gaining popularity again. Maybe we want stories where good guys are good, and badguys are bad, copious violence involving archaic weaponry, and dramatic vistas.The idea of simpler, harsher times, where a man could be a man and a woman could be a... er. Lady in a really uncomfy dress?

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MG — Sat, 15 May 2010 22:44:35 -0700

Westerns making a "comeback" is never going to happen. The American Western Film was the product of a very specific time and mindset, and not an altogether positive one when you look at the racism/sexism/ahistorical bent they often took. "Unforgiven" showed just how dark you have to go to appeal to any kind of modern, serious audience with a western. You can do all kinds of goofy mash-ups of the genre, like this "Cowboys and Aliens" looks to be or "Wild Wild West" was, but like classic noir it's kind of a time-locked genre.

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Adam Violent — Sat, 15 May 2010 23:22:37 -0700

If you want to see some good, recent Westerns (Appaloosa was terrible - how about Jeremy Irons doing his best Daniel Plainview? Yeeeeeesh), check out the Proposition, the Assassination of Jesse James By the Coward Robert Ford, No Country For Old Men, or even Kill Bill 2. Those are about as modern as Western films can get and they're all pretty impressive.

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D.J. — Sat, 15 May 2010 23:35:06 -0700

I unabashedly love westerns and want to see them come back, even if just to have a couple good ones a year. And yes, Appaloosa was horrendously boring.

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frequentcontributor — Sat, 15 May 2010 23:44:10 -0700

As a fairly young person, I like the darker, grittier westerns that pop up now. I've never really been able to get into any John Wayne movies, is what I mean... I did like the main Sergio Leone movies for their epic craziness and hilarity, though.

So I don't think westerns will ever flood the market again, really, but I like the occasional one that comes along and isn't too terrible. It's actually even better if Hollywood doesn't think they can make too much money off of them, because then the execs will just leave the creators alone to make good movies.

I really like Jarmusch's Dead Man, and Tampopo (a Japanese "noodle western" taking place in the 80's about a semi truck driver having to defend a woman's ramen shop. Hilarious, westernly, and definitely a movie for foodies...), Firefly, and Deadwood. And I still love Sam Raimi's The Quick and the Dead, even though it's totally cheesy and insane... Looking forward to if Quentin Tarantino ever does his newly proposed "southern", which I guess is a western done with slaves... (like Rosewood?)

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Adam Violent — Sun, 16 May 2010 00:13:30 -0700

I honestly don't think there's going to be some sort of big triumphant Western extravaganza to the extent that crap like vampires have gotten to recently. Even though there was a time when it was the most popular genre in the states, since then it's never been particularly huge. Still, up until recently, it's been nearly non-existent save for the occasional one-off. Even the aforementioned Unforgiven was treated like a swan song, the last film in a dead setting.

But there's got to be something to its recent return. Maybe it is just all cyclical, like Rootfireember said. Or maybe I just really want to play Red Dead Redemption so Westerns are all I can think of.

(Incidentally, I'm also reading Blood Meridian by Cormac McCarthy, which is quite brutal but amazing so far).

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JiveKitty — Sun, 16 May 2010 01:30:12 -0700

I think the problem with Westerns was that very few directors expanded the scope of the genre. Eastwood's early films were great because they did that, but after a while they became variations on a theme with Eastwood being the elevating factor. There were, of course, exceptions like the batshit insane "El Topo", and I guess something like "Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Garcia" fitted loosely into the Western genre. (Thematically Westerns and Peckinpah would've been a good fit. Pity.) "Unforgiven" seemed to be the apex of what one could do with the genre, while still being strictured by the majority of its conventions, and did seem an almost conscious attempt to bow that wave of the genre out on a high note. So I guess, it could be somewhat cyclical in that it was unclear where the genre could go from there, and that it took a long time to pick up from that.

I haven't seen many recent Westerns, but I do think the genre could undergo some kind of renaissance propelled of by the success of more straighforward(?) takes such as "Deadwood" and "The Proposition" (which I haven't seen in full) but also at a stretch by the success of more boundary-pushing re-envisionings of Western settings like "Cowboy Bebop", "Firefly" and "No Country for Old Men". The themes are pretty universal and resonant in these times: ambivalence and uncertainty about the future, moral shades of grey and so-on, and the manner in which Westerns present these has typically been compelling and good-viewing (with reference to Eastwood and Leone when concentrating on gritty realism anyway).

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Henchbot — Sun, 16 May 2010 02:03:03 -0700

i love Westerns. FUCKING LOVE THEM.
John Wayne is a big strapping douche who shouldve been partially gunned down by Lee Van Cleef then left for dead in the desert, buried in sand up to his neck with his mouth propped open by a stick.

Now that Lee Van Cleef has been mentioned in this thread, I am content.

I grew up watching High Chapparrel and Gunsmoke which were ok but really all about the white hand of Justice and cunts who sat around all day in the "frontier" baking pies for their two bit lawman husbands. Rolling around in godamned fancy hoop skirts and parasols atop tricked out wagons: fuck. Give me a break. It pissed me off to see Jimmy Stewart in his usual fare: the salted but genial lawman who only spoke/growled out of the left side of his mouth and it was always the same shit: "he shore dont say much that Sheriff, but when he does it means sumthin". Then Gene Autry the singing cowhand. god.kill.me.now.
Life changed when I saw Blade, How the West was Won, Josey Wales, A Bullet for the General, Companeros'! and of course the greatest of all: The Great Silence. THOSE are godamned Westerns through and through. I'll throw my lot in with the 3:10 crowd here as well, a fine fucking bit of work, although the original is a peice of shit production that almost made you want to puke.
Gimme the roughneck bounty hunters, unshaven murderous carpetbaggers, ruthlessApache half-breeds and corrupt lawmen any day! Long live the bloodied Bowie sunk deep in the neck of the pilgrims who dared to pass through the gun slinging cattle barons meadow, long live the Western and while we are at it: fuck those cocksuckers in Yankton!
Fucking Squareheads.
Bonus points to any western about a gun totin priest who is also an achoholic/womanizer.

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MG — Sun, 16 May 2010 03:48:40 -0700

Just a thought. "No Country for Old Men" was just about the most perfect western I've seen. Of course it's set in modern times, but does that really matter?

"The Proposition" is pitch black perfect western storytelling set in Australia. Hell, has anyone here seen "Quigley Down Under"? Laugh all you want at Tom Selleck with a sniper rifle in 19th century Australia, but Alan Rickman turns in a fantastic turn as a sneering villain.

On television, you had "Firefly" which has a cult following nearly 10 years after it went off the air. "Justified" is trying to put the lawman in the 10 gallon hat back on the tv as well. To say nothing of dead and departed "Deadwood"

The trappings of the western as so painfully cliche (the man in black, the hard-hearted hooker, the shoot-out) that it takes a really clever creator to make them new again. But as a classic form, I think it's good and buried.

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JiveKitty — Sun, 16 May 2010 03:53:51 -0700

Is "Preacher" still meant to be coming as a TV series or movie?

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razrangel — Sun, 16 May 2010 04:03:36 -0700

I grew up with Westerns. Spaghetti as well as John Wayne as well as Bonanza (as well as F Troop!). I have...a different feel for them now. They were in my childhood - I'm not that old, but my dad is and he *loved* John Wayne. But in my teenage years there was Dr Quinn Medicine Woman and other moralizing-in-favor-of-the-misunderstood-minority shows. The truth is somewhere in the middle. Good art displays the truth. A good Western tells you as much about where you are now as a good contemporary drama.

Someone upthread said "Firefly" and "Cowboy Bebop" - space cowboys. Same difference. }:> We see ourselves in those crews. The crews were designed for it and because the shows were good, they hit their marks.

I haven't watched a lot of the newer films - many of the ones mentioned have been on my Netflix queue for a while (I'm a slow watcher). But I always appreciate the tough old guns of The Good, The Bad & The Ugly and Magnificent Seven.

Also I'm writing a story that had to be a Western, neither here nor there exactly, but it would help me a little if there was a resurgence. }:>

@MG - Alan Rickman is the *best* sneering villain EVAR

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government spy — Sun, 16 May 2010 06:09:10 -0700

I thought the Assassination of Jesse James By the Coward Robert Ford was terrible... Not only was it ridiculously slow, it pretty much butchered the story of Jesse James. The scene where Jesse James pistol-whipped a man while robbing a train, just pure b/s.

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Darkest — Sun, 16 May 2010 06:31:51 -0700

I love the Western, The Magnificent 7, Spaghetti Westerns and the Wild Bunch plus whatever my brother has in his collection.

I would like to submit the manga Priest Min-Wo Hyung. Sort or A western crossed with The Crow only better than it sounds

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MG — Sun, 16 May 2010 06:49:56 -0700

@government spy:

That movie didn't start out well by having the most ridiculous film name since "Fat Guy Goes Nutzoid".

I can dig slow pacing in a film, but that movie was glacial. Actual ice ages occured between story beats. My mind was completely blown when I found out that it was directed by the same fellow who did "Chopper", one of the best, hardest hitting crime movies to come out in ages.

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Adam Violent — Sun, 16 May 2010 09:20:54 -0700

I don't know, maybe it was because I watched it on Blu-ray (looks beautiful in HD) and I think I even split it into two viewings originally... Jesse James went well with me. But I often dig the meandering tragic story, not unlike a lot of Japanese dramas. Ever see All About Lily Chou-Chou? Christ that movie is slow. But it's pretty and I love it.

Getting off topic.

I completely forgot about Justified, which sometimes seems a little forced to me. The whole "new sheriff in an old town with a hair-trigger quickdraw" thing... I don't know. It sounds good on paper, but it didn't work for me for the first couple episodes.

Still, they could just have easily made this another big city cop in a hick town series, but they went a more interesting route and it's getting a lot of attention. So it's more evidence to throw on the Western Renaissance pile.

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MG — Sun, 16 May 2010 09:46:02 -0700

@Adam Violent:

The problem with "Justified" is it's a great serial show about dumb, greedy criminals that's trying to wedge in an arc. Seriously, every week could be Waylan just shooting the shit with some ne'er do well he's about to shoot and it would be a fantastic show. The episodes with the least amount of Walter Goggins (whose kind of wasted here) and the completely lifeless love interest (oh no, is she in peril?) are great fun. Just make it about southern fried dumbass criminals and it would be golden.

The last episode had him spend a whole damn episode having a talk-down with the gent who played Al Swearengen's heavy on "Deadwood". It's Dan and the Sheriff talking at knife/gun point.

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256 — Sun, 16 May 2010 12:25:16 -0700

Reading through this thread, I realized 2 things:

1) I've never seen most of the good/modern/modern and good Westerns that people are mentioning - although I did watch and like The Quick And The Dead. It ain't perfect, but there's plenty of things to love there. And what a fabulous title!

2) What I hate about Westerns is that they're so FLAT. You've got your main street, flat, some flat old desert, maybe some canyons that are never explored, a few rows of buildings with 1 or 2 stories... I guess that sounds like a weird sort of criticism, but if someone could show me a Western with a sense of verticality I would watch the shit out of that.

Also: Blade Runner is to Film Noir what x is to Westerns. Give me some x.

Also also: More Henchbot please.

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government spy — Sun, 16 May 2010 12:27:56 -0700

I would say Firefly/Serenity but that's too easy.

Blade Runner is to Noir as that wierd-ass Muse music video (the one with cowboys, lazer guns, holographic strippers and unicorns) is to Westerns

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Thanatosser — Sun, 16 May 2010 13:24:57 -0700

There will be no return for the Western, but it has and will continue to influence other films.

Some things just don't have the mileage. Take the werewolf for instance, the creature has no where near the fandom of vampires, not because it sucks, but because it has evolved into other things; Jeckle & Hyde springs to mind, then Incredible Hulk from that, alien body snatchers and Hollywood "split personality" types.

I'd just like to mention Cowboy Bebop, just generally.

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Finagle — Sun, 16 May 2010 14:40:09 -0700

I had a craving for a Western revival, but then I saw

The Good, the Bad and the Weird

...and I was content.

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Ariana — Sun, 16 May 2010 20:24:30 -0700

What I hate about Westerns is that they're so FLAT. You've got your main street, flat, some flat old desert, maybe some canyons that are never explored, a few rows of buildings with 1 or 2 stories... I guess that sounds like a weird sort of criticism, but if someone could show me a Western with a sense of verticality I would watch the shit out of that.

This just cracked me up so hard. Like, I don't know if you're desperate for up-and-down gunfights (fun) or if you're offended by the existence of the desert in general (understandable), and frankly it doesn't matter -- I don't think I would have laughed more if, for instance, you'd called out those damned Naval Battle movies for having so much fucking water.

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Adam Violent — Sun, 16 May 2010 21:15:44 -0700

Someone should really fill in those goddamn oceans.

@ Finagle

NOT ENOUGH PEOPLE FALLING OFF HORSES

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MG — Sun, 16 May 2010 21:26:32 -0700

@Ariana:

So my Western script set in steel canyons of MegaCity One would be a bad thing?

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Adam Violent — Sun, 16 May 2010 21:53:45 -0700

256 said:

Also: Blade Runner is to Film Noir what x is to Westerns. Give me some x.

American Astronaut
Stingray Sam
Tears of the Black Tiger
Once Upon A Time In Mexico
The Road
Book of Eli (didn't see it, just guessing)

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JiveKitty — Sun, 16 May 2010 22:20:56 -0700

:O Wetern + MegaCity One! Yay!

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William George — Sun, 16 May 2010 22:24:33 -0700

I love the western as a genre as well. High Noon is the best fucking movie of all time;

But whoever said that Unforgiven was the last, best statement for the genre was right. It's a genre of time and place. That era is over.

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Erisah — Mon, 17 May 2010 00:43:17 -0700

I'm shocked and appalled that no one has mentioned some of the best things to come out of the Western Genre:

films directed by Akira Kurosawa, the guy who made Seven Samurai.

Also known as the guy who had the plot for "Fistful of Dollars" blatantly ripped off from his movie, Yojimbo.

Kurosawa, in the great Japanese tradition, noted some awesome things coming from overseas and then found a way to do it better.

In this case, we're talking spaghetti western plots, shots and scandals, set in feudal Japan. Not to knock Clint Eastwood, but Yojimbo was the better movie.

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JiveKitty — Mon, 17 May 2010 01:45:13 -0700

Yojimbo was definitely a better movie. Sanjuro was good too.

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Magnulus — Mon, 17 May 2010 01:48:00 -0700

Kurosawa = Spaghetti Westerns in Japan?
Spaghetti Westerns: Mid-60s origin.
Seven Samurai: 1954 release.

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razrangel — Mon, 17 May 2010 01:56:29 -0700

Magnificent Seven is a Western remake of Seven Samurai. There are terrific parallels between feudal Japan and America's old west - as were conceived and fictionalized 40-60 years ago. That's pretty well plumbed territory. And not just Westerns - there's a good case to be made that the plot to Star Wars is a rehash of Kurosawa's Hidden Fortress.

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MG — Mon, 17 May 2010 02:10:43 -0700

Just a thought. Is the caper story an evolution of the western?

Take a show like "Leverage" which is a serial caper story. Every week the ne'er do well heroes ride into a new situation, rescue the fine people and catch the bad guys. The "A-Team" is about to be relaunched, same idea there. Even the (please god make it) forthcoming "Slingers" has those elements. The caper story is just an urban western, down to the archetypes.

Also, everyone's been dancing around him, but damn near the whole of Cormac McCarthy's body of work is a rework of the western mythos. "Blood Meridian" is required reading for anyone who wants to talk seriously about the darkness inherent in the Old West. Harold Bloom called it one of the greatest books of the 20th century, proving a stopped clock is right twice a day.

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tsm_sf — Mon, 17 May 2010 02:20:02 -0700

Learn, guys.

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Verissimus — Mon, 17 May 2010 03:10:28 -0700

Leone + Morricone = WIN

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Flabyo — Mon, 17 May 2010 06:09:32 -0700

On the new game, Red Dead Redemption, I wouldn't go expecting it to be anything other than a retread of all the familiar tropes. It'll be a great game, I'm sure, but we've still not really got the hang of story yet.

As for Star Wars from Hidden Fortress? There's a couple of characters that Lucas lifted, but most of that films plot really doesn't match up with Star Wars.

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mister hex — Mon, 17 May 2010 06:22:06 -0700

Star Wars is a western. Of sorts.

Every few years, westerns come back, one makes some dosh, a bunch get made and then they fade away again.

Y'know what's a great movie? The Shootist. Ain't nobody mentioned that one yet.

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mister hex — Mon, 17 May 2010 07:17:36 -0700

The Coen Brothers are remaking True Grit? With Jeff Bridges as Rooster Cogburn? Damn.

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J.Brennan — Mon, 17 May 2010 13:48:08 -0700

Surprised the Dark Tower series hasn't been mentioned yet. Although it's certainly not McCarthy level prose, large chunks of it are Western filtered through the weird, a lot of homage to spaghetti westerns.

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Henchbot — Mon, 17 May 2010 20:44:43 -0700

@tsm_sf
your godamned right.

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Lmanningvines — Mon, 17 May 2010 21:46:57 -0700

thank non-existent god someone finally mentioned Tear of the Black Tiger. one of the most awesome rides through every cliche in the book, but in freaking Korean! the sunset shootout scene against a painted background should be all you need to know about it before going out to get it.
also, no one's mentioned the revisionist western Posse, or Rosewood, which isn't strictly a genre film, but has the bad-ass stranger Ving Rhames riding into a post-civil war southern town just in time to be the justification for mass lynching. personally i'd count this as part of the western tradition.

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Adam Violent — Mon, 17 May 2010 22:17:24 -0700

@Lmanningvines

Actually, it's a Thai film. But yeah, the imagery in that thing is just incredible. I found it really hard to watch the first time because of the acting and the silly voices (it was like one guy was trying to do an American accent... in Thai), but I tried it again later and I'm glad I did. Fuckin weird, wild shit.

Although I have a feeling I'll like the Good, the Bad, and the Weird more. Just my kind of style.

I also recently half-watched Renegade (aka Blueberry) and hol-ee-sheeeeeeiiiiiiit I don't know what the fuck I was lookin at.

Seriously. Vincent Cassel doing the worst American accent ever and then tripping balls with Michael Madsen for a straight 20 minutes. I have not, until now, seen a Western that featured a sequence to rival 2001: A Space Odyssey's "Star Gate." I mean... kudos, French, for making something truly bizarre. The rest of the film was pretty unwatchable though.

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Adam Violent — Mon, 17 May 2010 22:32:21 -0700

Came across this review while I feverishly wait for Red Dead Redemption to arrive on my doorstep. There's a part where he ruminates on the Western genre, so it's worth a read to those interested in this topic.

Way Down Deep in the Wild, Wild West

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Greasemonkey — Mon, 17 May 2010 23:32:51 -0700

Mr Eastwood wants a word with you . . . .

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jonah — Mon, 17 May 2010 23:45:05 -0700

I really dig the downbeat westerns like Lonely Are the brave, it is easily my favorite western. How about High Plains Drifter or The Shooting(with Jack Nicholson)?

I I haven't seen it yet, but what about Brokeback Mountain? It would be the most popular/successful recent western, wouldn't it?

@Adam Violent
What is that that review going on about at the end? Beef wellington? I'm not sure what the reviewer is referencing in that third to last paragraph. I am lost.

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tsm_sf — Tue, 18 May 2010 02:54:40 -0700

@henchbot we see eye-to-eye on some things, but I've been thinking about your Wayne=douche comment a bit.

John Wayne might have been a raging asshole (no idea), but he's pretty much the opposite of the current crop of Jersey Shore style douchebags. I can see hating Wayne for the kind of Americana he projected, but 'douche' simply does not fit. The man was not style over substance.

Have you seen The Shootist? Did you know that he himself was dying of cancer when he made it? It's a powerful film, Ron Howard aside (oh hell, there's nothing wrong with Ron Howard).

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William George — Tue, 18 May 2010 04:23:00 -0700

High Plains Drifter

That movie was awesome times ten.

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Mathias B — Tue, 18 May 2010 04:56:17 -0700

I believe the Western will stick around, in some form, because of our continued fascination with that period in American history/mythology and how it relates to our own time. Kind of like the superhero genre; just when you thought it's all used up, someone reinvents the wheel and tells a good story. But the days of the Western-as-must-see-action-blockbuster is unlikely to return, because its triumphant flagwaving is no longer viable. Peckinpah, Leone and the others killed that off in the 60's, probably for good.

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sacredchao — Tue, 18 May 2010 08:05:39 -0700

@256
Watch Robert Altman's McCabe and Mrs. Miller. It's not only not flat, it's very wet and very muddy as well.

Also, I want to point out that Westerns have been considered, by film critics anyway, in revival since The Proposition and Deadwood came out.

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Adam Violent — Tue, 18 May 2010 09:05:19 -0700

@Jonah
Yeah, I have no idea. I googled around a bit and still came up with nothing. It's great that he enjoys Rockstar's referential wit but fuck if I get the joke.

So do you guys think that it's more a matter of overexposure that made the Western take a decline in interest, or just the change in social climate? The former would make sense, because it's been a while since there's been any sort of saturation of the genre in the media. And just like with the Punisher, for example (to nerd up this discussion), time has passed allowing it to cool down and interest build again. In the early 90s, the Punisher was everywhere. I think he had 3 or 4 different books on the shelf at one point. There was just too much of him. So he disappeared for a while and then it took a great story to bring him back and now he's skirting that line again.

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Mathias B — Tue, 18 May 2010 10:17:09 -0700

I think what happens is every once in a while someone comes up with a fresh, commercially successful take on Westerns and that forms the "rule book" for how the genre is addressed for the years to come. Like when Young Guns was big in the 80's, it spawned a whole bunch of these MTV-style Westerns; like Posse and Bad Girls and The Quick and the Dead etc. They weren't that great to begin with (although I have a nostalgic attatchment to the Young Guns franchise), and over the years they just seemed to get less and less inspired.
Then, like @Adam Violent says, the genre needs to hibernate for a few years until a new standard is set.

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William Joseph Dunn — Tue, 18 May 2010 10:45:46 -0700

I don't think anyone has mentioned Sam Peckinpah's "Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Garcia" yet, but that's a good modern day western.

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Dovryn — Tue, 18 May 2010 11:58:59 -0700

Cowboys & Aliens?
Ha! I can't wait.

I don't love the western genre only when its done right. If a movie sucks... in a genre I love, then I still enjoy the film. My imagination has a field day with the scraps like carrion birds, picking at what the producers and directors left behind. To me, it has never waned and does not need a revival.

But that is what perspective is all about. If it is not your favorite genre, you don't notice every single release, and even a good one or two will slip by ya. The same can be said about most no matter how vague or specific you get, depending on perspective. -horror, sci-fi, buddy cop drama, comedy even.

But it is interesting that last year... only one western film was made?.. the whole year?
Damn, we were doing alright there for awhile.

[edit to add- Oh and thanks for the clips.. been along time since Ive seen some of these films. Hells yes. And to fix a sentence.. heheh]

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kahavi — Tue, 18 May 2010 12:11:31 -0700

What about The Three Burials of Melquiades Estrada? That was a pretty damn good modern day western.

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Clint Wolf — Tue, 18 May 2010 12:20:45 -0700

I always loved the Leone Westerns and some of the other Eastwood offerings along those lines. Unforgiven remains one of my personal top 5 movies of all time.

However, I've gained a new appreciation for John Wayne just in the past year, as I've been binging on classic Westerns. You do get certain movies of his like McLintock! which are highly disturbing to modern sensibility, but frankly it's just a bad movie whether or not you think an entire town condoning domestic abuse is questionable (Hint: it is. Very.).

Go back to the movies he did with John Ford, though, and I was frankly surprised at how much he was consciously willing to come off as a fairly complex anti-hero (or even by some measures, a villain). If you haven't seen The Searchers or Red River, they're surprisingly ambiguous pieces of work, long before Unforgiven came along.

Complicated guy, John Wayne, much moreso than people usually think. For instance, in True Grit he portrays a Marshal that's an aging alchoholic, but the real interesting story is that the screenwriter for True Grit had been blacklisted by HUAC back in the day, and when that stigma was still lingering it was The Duke who (despite knowing this) read her script and said "This is a good Western. Let's do it."

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mister hex — Tue, 18 May 2010 12:37:18 -0700

Fun fact : John Wayne hated riding horses. And his real name was Marion. So Yeah.

Another fun fact : JONAH HEX opens June 18 2010. And has its own thread on this very forum.

There'll always be westerns. But apparently, women don't like westerns and that's why there ain't more of 'em. Westerns, I mean. Not women.

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Dovryn — Tue, 18 May 2010 13:03:56 -0700

Did anyone play the original Red Dead Revolver? It had style.
I played it and loved it and I remember saying.. "If only they would blend this with GTA..."
I had hoped the game GUN was going to be 'the one'.. but nope.

Red Dead Redemption came out today. I am trying not to think about it. Failing obviously. /drools

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RenThing — Tue, 18 May 2010 16:46:45 -0700

Did anyone find the remake of 3:10 to Yuma a little disappointing?

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Clint Wolf — Tue, 18 May 2010 18:21:27 -0700

I watched the 3:10 to Yuma remake with my wife. She'd seen the original and I hadn't, and at the end I was all "bleah?" and she was all "You need to watch the first one".

And she was right. The remake has so much unnecessary padding and a baffling change of ending over the old. Plus, ya gotta love that theme song.

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kahavi — Wed, 19 May 2010 00:16:55 -0700

@mister hex: As a woman brought up on westerns, I find the claim of women not liking westerns baffling. Pretty much all my friends, women and men, adore westerns. The problem is, there aren't that many good ones being made these days.

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razrangel — Wed, 19 May 2010 00:23:58 -0700

don't fret, Kahavi, women aren't supposed to like comic books either.

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kahavi — Wed, 19 May 2010 01:39:42 -0700

@razrangel: Oh yeah, I always forget that.

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JiveKitty — Wed, 19 May 2010 02:06:48 -0700

Statistically rather than anecdotally? In the sense of "don't like" rather than "should" or whatever. What a person likes is down to them.

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government spy — Wed, 19 May 2010 05:55:29 -0700

I forgot two of my most favorite westerns: Silverado and Open Range

Silverado (1985) is a very understated western with Kevin Kline, Scott Glenn (looking like a lost Carradine brother) an extremely young Keven Costner, Danny Glover, and a really just likeable Brian Dennehy as a villain. Throw in John Cleese as a british town sheriff... well, you have to see it.

Open Range is more recent, (dunno if anyone mentioned it) also has Costner, Robert Duvall, and Annette Benning. One of my favorite gunfights, and some great dialog. Costner directs, and seems to be one of the reasons his character has very few lines. He gets some of the best lines though. After getting mad at a friend "How about I hold your head underwater for just a little while?"

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mister hex — Wed, 19 May 2010 06:45:53 -0700

@kahavi - you must run with a rareified crowd. Most women I know ain't much fans of westerns. Most men, neither. I need a new set of friends.

I also was disappointed with 3:10 to Yuma.

And apparently Johnny Depp is gonna play Tonto? That could be ... interesting.

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Mathias B — Wed, 19 May 2010 07:21:55 -0700

Also worth checking out:
Dead Man (Jim Jarmusch)
The Naked Spur (Anthony Mann)
Django (Sergio Corbucci)

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mister hex — Wed, 19 May 2010 07:25:15 -0700

@MATHIAS B - DJANGO! Original title - "If You Live, Shoot!" Ah yes.

Also, if you haven't seen EL TOPO, well, you really should. Go do it now, I'll wait.

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Mathias B — Wed, 19 May 2010 08:15:28 -0700

"If you live, shoot!" is now my offical motto.

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Clint Wolf — Wed, 19 May 2010 08:57:30 -0700

So this is kinda awesome, I was researching True Grit for my site blog and found out that the Coen brothers are doing a remake, slated for release in December of this year!

After No Country For Old Men, I'm interested to see how they'll do with an actual period piece of the Old West. The original film (and novel, apparently) has enough quirky language and interactions that I can see it being right up their alley.

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government spy — Wed, 19 May 2010 10:04:01 -0700

I heard about True Grit, it's supposed to be closer to the book than trying to copy John Wayne. Though Rooster Cogburn will be a helluva character to portray as it was one of Wayne's most famous roles. Just leave my Quiet Man alone!

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RenThing — Wed, 19 May 2010 10:19:32 -0700

@government spy

I was just coming to mention Silverado. It has a special place in my heart as it's one of the first Westerns my dad ever showed me.

"Today, gentlemen, my jurisdiction ends here..."

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kahavi — Wed, 19 May 2010 11:38:12 -0700

@government spy: I forgot those two as well. Love them! Open Range was really the movie that restored my faith in Kevin Costner being able to do good movies again.

@mister hex: I blame my dad, who figured that any girl of twelve should see Sergio Leone movies. That, and my friends really do rock. :)

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Flabyo — Thu, 20 May 2010 01:25:39 -0700

I liked 'The Quick and the Dead'.

I'll get me coat.

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kahavi — Thu, 20 May 2010 01:53:36 -0700

@Flabyo: No need to get your coat, it was an entertaining movie. :) Then again, I'm the person who thinks Bad Girls was entertaining and occasionally even good-ish.

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government spy — Thu, 20 May 2010 08:53:00 -0700

Woah now. We don't need to start going off into Bad Girls territory... Let's keep this tasteful, folks.

(now where did I put that sarcasm font?)

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kahavi — Thu, 20 May 2010 09:15:40 -0700

(@government spy: missing your temherte slaq? here you go: ¡)

I'm in the process of re-watching Brisco County Jr. It's probably the only '90s western series that is as good as I remembered it being.

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Clint Wolf — Thu, 20 May 2010 09:23:59 -0700

Brisco County, now there's a series I wish was on Netflix Instant.

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Adam Violent — Thu, 20 May 2010 17:01:45 -0700

I absolutely hated Silverado. Admittedly, I saw it when I was like 19 so I pretty hardcore (that's a joke) and maybe that's why I didn't like it so much. Because all I remember is watching it and thinking, "this is a Western for kids" and I was totally not into that. I wanted more bad ass.

I also just recently saw Django for the first time. Shouldn't Robert Rodriguez put a "thank you" credit at the end of most of his films?

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Greasemonkey — Thu, 20 May 2010 19:30:11 -0700

Last Ride Of The Dalton Gang rates an honourable mention as well. Best shootout scene in any western ever, with the gang sheltering in a wooden shack which disintegrates into splinters around them under sustained heavy fire from a pursuing posse.

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J.Brennan — Sat, 22 May 2010 00:55:24 -0700

@Kahavi: I'll see your Bad Girls and raise you liking Young Guns 1 and 2 ... *shamefaced* I know they're bad, it's a childhood nostalgia thing, I can't help it.

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SBarrett — Sun, 23 May 2010 18:00:41 -0700

I love Young Guns 1 & 2...granted I have not seen them in over a decade. But I remember them being awesome!

How can you not like a movie with a character named Chavez Chavez?

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government spy — Sun, 30 May 2010 08:30:51 -0700

Has anyone seen the Proposition written by Nick Cave? Is it any good?

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looneynerd — Sun, 30 May 2010 09:16:24 -0700

To everyone mentioning the Good, The Bad, The Weird, go and see it right now if you haven't yet. Make sure you find a version with good subtitles, all the dubs are awful. I just saw it a couple days ago and, no lie, it's taken a place as a potential front-runner for favorite movie. That's a hard thing to achieve, seeing as how picky I am, but the movie has it all. The quality of the entire film can only be described as staggering; I've never seen such cinematography or wonderful set-design.

Some Other Favorite Westerns: Django, Firefly (Space Western, but still counts), Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid.

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Solario — Sun, 30 May 2010 09:24:42 -0700

The Proposition is pretty good. One of the few westerns that managed to hold my interest. Generally I'm not a huge fan. I liked No Country, The Proposition and There Will Be Blood (Wikipedia tells me that's a western).

I haven't seen the later Eastwood westerns, but aside from stuff like Unforgiven - what do you guys recommend? If it's well-written and well-done in general I'll be interested, but I'd like some stuff that wasn't quite as dualistic as the stereotype of westerns.

Also just out of curiosity, would you guys count Ravenous as a western?

EDIT: And yeah, I'm totally warming up to the Western on account of how great Red Dead Redemption is. Ending is classic, but an absolute killer.

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Finagle — Sun, 30 May 2010 09:30:39 -0700

@looney - I figured it would be up your alley! For those in the U.S. with Comcast, /The Good, The Bad and the Weird/ is currently showing on OnDemand.

There's just something so gloriously crazy about a Korean homage to a branch of an Italian variant of an American art form, in and of itself. The purely twisted multiculturalism of it alone makes it a wonderful artifact. But it also happens to be utterly fantastic, big dumb fun.

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government spy — Mon, 27 Dec 2010 08:56:20 -0800

Just bought tickets for me, my girlfriend and my best friend to see True Grit. Hot damn!

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squidbunny — Tue, 28 Dec 2010 07:19:32 -0800

New True Grit was awesome. Hope you enjoyed it.

The original may have had John Wayne in arguably his best role, but the new one is so, so much better. The language in it is amazing; the new Mattie makes me less angry. Generally golden.

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government spy — Tue, 28 Dec 2010 07:45:57 -0800

Two thumbs up, four stars, etc. Thoroughly enjoyed it.

I liked a lot of the slight music touches, just some old time "pian-y" played in the background at points. It was less a Cohen Brothers movie, and more, just a great film.

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William Joseph Dunn — Tue, 28 Dec 2010 08:50:35 -0800

True Grit was one of the best films of the year. I think Jeff Bridges will get his second consecutive Oscar for best actor.

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lucien — Tue, 28 Dec 2010 13:49:30 -0800

not a damn thing wrong with the new true grit.

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D.J. — Wed, 29 Dec 2010 22:16:41 -0800

@will - Colin Firth is almost certainly going to take the Oscar, he had a much more substantial role than Bridges and was arguably more powerful as well.

It was a very good movie, though I felt the ending a bit anti-climatic, especially the bit with the

snake pit and ride to the shop. Regardless of it if was part of the book or not, it really just provided for some very superficial tension and unnecessary drama. Nor did it sit right that the bandits didn't move camp further out, especially considering they had been warned of marshals on their trail.

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space scoundrel — Sat, 01 Jan 2011 14:41:50 -0800

...Is no one going to stand up and defend Appaloosa? I honestly thought it was the best western since Tombstone. Granted, there haven't been a lot of contenders in that timeframe, but even so. The plot was simple, but it was supposed to be. The dialogue was fantastic, and the acting, especially from the two leads, was very sharp. The interplay between the main characters was the centerpoint of the movie and I thought they pulled it off really well.

As far as the revival of the genre is concerned overall, I don't think people ever really lost interest in the western. There's an essential power to the setting - a bare and hostile landscape, new territory, struggle to survive - that strips away social artifice and the dance of civilization and really strips a story down to its most fundamental elements and the characters to their most intense and unmoderated natures. That's what I love about them and I think they'll thrive long into the future.

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johnjones — Sun, 02 Jan 2011 08:19:17 -0800

@ DJ Stawes

The ride to the shop is essential to the story because it cements the idea of Rooster becoming a true hero instead of simply a mercenary killer. As for the outlaws, I took it that it was more blind, stupid luck that Mattie ran into them more than anything else. They went to the mine, found it deserted, realized that they had no idea where to continue looking for them and were about to disband and go home.

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William Joseph Dunn — Sun, 02 Jan 2011 10:15:46 -0800

@johnjones-

I also think the ride to the shop was a way for the Cogburn character to redeem himself to his son in a round about way. he wasn't/couldn't be there for his own kid, but he had the opportunity to be there for this 14 year old girl.

I think the relationship between Mattie and Rooster is way better in the Coen brothers version than the John Wayne one.

I recommend the Proposition as well. very strange atmosphere in that movie. partly due to Nick Cave's fantastic score.

speaking of Nick Cave soundtrack's, I also liked The Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford.

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oddbill — Sun, 02 Jan 2011 19:51:05 -0800

Also, regarding the end:

The whole snakebite incident rounds out Mattie's character as well. For the most part her headstrong insistence on doing things herself works for her - she is smart enough and stubborn enough to keep going, even when faced with resistance or her own ignorance (that line about guns where she says derisively when asked: "If I knew anything about guns I would have one that worked!" is just beautiful in it's aggressive self-awareness), but it also makes her a danger to herself.

By the time she fell down that pit she knew the following things:

1) Tom Chainey was dead, she blew him off the cliff herself
2) La Beouf was unconscious, but she had no reason to think he wouldn't recover
3) Cogburn lived, she saw La Beouf shoot the last outlaw out of the saddle herself

Having fallen into the pit, and hanging there, she could have opted to hold tight and wait for one of the two men who she knew had taken an active interest in seeing her rescued come and do just that. They were both still alive and out there, and they knew where she was. She could have just called for help and waited.

Instead, exactly in character for her, she doesn't even appear to consider looking for help from others as an option. She sees a knife on a corpse and goes to a hazardous effort to get it and get herself out, and in the process disturbs the sleeping snakes in it's gut, and gets bit. And in the end she is still rescued by the others, but she has the loss of her arm through her life as payment for her inability to trust them.

Seeing the harsh, deliberate woman she became at the very end really solidified the portrait of her. That was exactly who she had to grow into, given what we know about who she was as a child.

It was really quite brilliant a portrait of that girl in that world.

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J.Brennan — Mon, 03 Jan 2011 00:36:50 -0800

@Oddbill: I agree 100%

On the subject of The Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford. It was a good movie up until Jesse James' murder. The half hour aftermath however, is utterly epic. The music and narration are haunting and beautiful. Plus: Nick Cave has a cameo as a minstrel/troubador.

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government spy — Tue, 04 Jan 2011 14:10:32 -0800

I thought the Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford was a travesty. Slow, boring, and inaccurate.

Jesse James didn't rob the passengers of trains and pistol whip them. He was a bit more of a Robin Hood. There's a reason the man was thought of as a folk-hero.

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looneynerd — Tue, 04 Jan 2011 15:00:23 -0800

@government spy

Not really. Jesse James got his start murdering people for the confederates during the civil war; he joined a group of bushwackers that were responsible for murdering a couple dozen unarmed union soldiers, and later chasing down a group of over a hundred and murdering the ones who surrendered. He was an extreme racists, once boasting that he'd shoot "any free black found in Missouri". Everything he did seems, according to modern historians of the old west, to have been motivated by personal selfishness. He was just smart and canny enough to spin public perception to his favor. He was lucky enough to be friends with another former confederate who just happened to edit a major paper in Kansas City. The two used the paper to voice their confederate ideology and turn James into a hero for disgruntled ex-confederates during Reconstruction. I say all of this as a proud Southerner who comes from a long line (one on-side) of pro confederates.

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government spy — Tue, 04 Jan 2011 16:02:20 -0800

Hey, I get it man, and I'm a Chicago yankee. I didn't say I liked Jesse James, and I can copy quotes from Wikipedia too. I definitely agree that Jesse James hated the Union soldiers, and was a racist. But he also faught a campaign against the railroads buying up people's lands and the banks that backed them. Definitely, Jesse James was a murderer and violent man.What I never heard was Jesse fucking up the average guy, like the poor sap on the train that Brad Pitt pistol-whips in the film. yes, he was definitely motivated by selfish desires (aren't we all?) but how does pistol-whipping the train passenger help him at all? Other than make the character scary & edgy in a new (at the time) western film?

EDIT: Y'know, since we're talking about Westerns as a genre, I guess I should add that I don't always look for historical accuracy when I watch a western. When I watch one based on a real person, I guess that I do have some expectations. Since the aforementioned film also made some claims as to its accuracy, I tend to get nitpicky. But to reiterate, my claim isn't that Jesse James was a nice guy, or anything like that. His enemy was The North, and he was definitely a racist. But that's not what the discrepency with the film is. It's that it's showing him to be assaultive to the people that he wanted telling folk-hero tales about him.

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dkitsch — Sat, 08 Jan 2011 09:02:53 -0800

I never got into westerns, cant relate i guess. but my favorite movie of all time is Little Big Man. go figure.

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MartinSheen — Fri, 04 Feb 2011 22:02:34 -0800

Young Guns 1 and Young Gun's 2.
A sterling example of cinema at its finest :)

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StefanJ — Fri, 04 Feb 2011 22:46:03 -0800

Saw True Grit last weekend. Damn wonderful entertainment, with great performances and scenery.

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Cat Vincent — Sat, 05 Feb 2011 02:05:48 -0800

A thoughtful piece by critic Anne Bilson on how the Western never went away, it just colonised all other genres.

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Fauxhammer — Sat, 05 Feb 2011 05:55:41 -0800

I've been playing Red Dead Redemption, which put me on a Western bender. I will look into the recommendations made here.

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Finagle — Sun, 13 Feb 2011 11:24:46 -0800

Just caught /Tears of the Black Tiger/ on Netflix and was duly impressed. Glorious technicolor homage to Western-flavored chop-sockey.

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danhill — Mon, 14 Feb 2011 08:54:15 -0800

I watched Red Hill a few days back, a modern day western set in Australia.

The premise is very 'High Noon' but there are elements that turn it on its head.

It's not the most groundbreaking of films but it's well acted, well made and the score was memorable.

My opinion on the film may be coloured by my love for modern day Western's-- No Country, Way of the Gun (I still think this film is vastly underrated), Lone Star, etc.

I'm sure I'm missing a few.

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MartinSheen — Tue, 22 Feb 2011 23:32:47 -0800

I didn't really enjoy Red Hill. I feel terrible saying that as I should be showing support for Aussie cinema. It just seemed a bit by-the-numbers for me.

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Carla Speed McNeil — Thu, 24 Feb 2011 08:00:20 -0800

TRUE GRIT, oh yes, TRUE GRIT. It has the visual texture some may be missing from seeing only Westerns filmed in deserts or high prairie. It doesn't eclipse NO COUNTRY for that final Tommy Lee monologue, but it's got great flavor. NO COUNTRY-the-novel reads almost exactly like the movie-- a rare thing, and by that I mean the feel of it, the tone of the dialogue. TRUE GRIT doesn't. I love Portis, he's just an insane writer, but the novel never, never would have created the rhythms of speech and accent in my head that the actors did.

Still don't much care for Matt Damon, but he made a great Robert Redford in TRUE GRIT.

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ScottBieser — Thu, 24 Feb 2011 08:26:10 -0800

Did anyone mention CENTENNIAL? True, it was a made-for-TV mini-series and not a feature film, but it was quintessentially a "Western," and it had verticality in spades. Hard not to do vertical in Colorado.

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Carla Speed McNeil — Thu, 24 Feb 2011 13:14:09 -0800

What a pity about THE MISSING. It has some great stuff in it, some wonderful actors, but Jesus. Ron Howard. Just a little more discretion and it could have been a great movie.

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Kay Orchison — Fri, 25 Feb 2011 04:46:09 -0800

I had a ...thing... for CLint Eastwood films for a while - I think High Plains Drifter, Pale Rider and Unforgiven all have gothic undercurrents of superstition and guilt that are up there with the best supernatural horror. I also think that the Western, far from being dead or even moribund is now more alive and diverse than at probably any other time in its history. Plenty of the evidence has been given above, I don'tneed to repeat it. If however you want to explore the Western as a genre, old Eastwood films are a really good place to start - they'll give some good perspective on the modern versions.

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Kay Orchison — Fri, 25 Feb 2011 05:11:07 -0800

Oh yes and also, Nick Cave and TOWE have released a 2 CD collection of their soundtrack work called White Lunar that is fucking amazing. Includes a lot of their stuff from the Proposition. Well worth it if you can track it down. Mostly comprised of haunting instrumentals.